Does your Sifu/instructor spar with you?

[IronFist]

I hear a lot of traditional sifus have ego problems and won't spar with their students because they might lose and that would ruin their ego and the mystical ideal that surrounds the undefeatable sifu. So does your instructor spar with you?

I'm not really talking to the MMA guys, cuz I'm pretty sure all MMA instructors spar with students. Mine did (back in the good old days when I lived by a school).

[David Jamieson]

My former sifu did not spar with the students.

Many do not. I don't know why. I think a sifu should have enough ability to regulate that they will go at the students ability level.

But if there are other students to spar with, there's probably value in that too.

cheers

[Water Dragon]

My coach spars with/beats up on me every class.

[Starchaser107]

my sifu spars with us.
And yeah we get beat up.

[red5angel]

My former sparred but didn't like getting hit by his students. That's why he's "former"


My current teacher get's right in there with us. I've hit him once or twice on accident - meaning I suck so it had to be on accident :) and he's always been real cool about it.

[lkfmdc]

I don't think I'd call what Chan Tai San did with us "sparring", it was more of a beating, abuse, torture, humiliation, wrath of the lord.....

Seriously, for a guy who was maybe 5' 6" and never probably mor than a 150, we were **** scared of him, tossing coins to see who would have to ask him about an application

[rubthebuddha]

yep -- he does on a regular basis with us instructors on weekdays. only thing, i work a regular 8-5 then teach at night, so i can't make those classes regularly. :(

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by lkfmdc
I don't think I'd call what Chan Tai San did with us "sparring", it was more of a beating, abuse, torture, humiliation, wrath of the lord.....

Seriously, for a guy who was maybe 5' 6" and never probably mor than a 150, we were **** scared of him, tossing coins to see who would have to ask him about an application

lol. That so sounds like Monkeyslap, except for the 150 pound thing.

[Shaolinlueb]

my sifu spars with us and doesnt have any problems, and the senior students of 10 years and stuff he seams to have no problem with. guess thats what happen when a mercenary trains you :)

[Vash]

Our instructor lays brick all day then comes to class and beats the pho shizzle out of us.

[Ben Gash]

From an insurance and litigation standpoint it's very difficult to prove adequate supervision if you're sparring in the class :rolleyes:

[Volcano Admim]

lol wrath of the lord

[Shaolin Dude]

my sifu spars with us all the time. he have no problem sparring with anyone. he's 47 and really quick

One time a student accidentally punched my sifu in the jaw, sifu punched him back hard

[Becca]

Yes... If you want to call it sparring. Looks more like happless idiot against a very smooth pro, though...;) :D

[Mr Punch]

My internals sifu regularly throws/sweeps/slaps/bounces me round the room. I haven't done full contact with him yet, and I confess I don't want to yet, and I'm not 100% convinced as to his control.

My kendo sensei lets me beat him up sometimes, and then he beats me like that old redheaded stepchild.

My shooto teacher plays with us, when he's not crash-dieting and training for a fight or recovering from one. He's out at the mo from some knee damage from his last fight, but I don't really think it would stop him putting the hurt on most of us!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
One time a student accidentally punched my sifu in the jaw, sifu punched him back hard

What a tough guy :rolleyes:

He should have control and not get angry if someone "accidently" hits him.

[Becca]

Originally posted by IronFist
What a tough guy :rolleyes:

He should have control and not get angry if someone "accidently" hits him.
I'm too afaid to hit Pai Lum sifu softly; it generally causes them to "show" you how to hit. And they are a bunch of masicists.:eek: If you hit'em with all you got, they are content to hit you no harder than you can take it. But if you seem to cower or flinch, they stop working with you one-on-one.

[Oso]

hunh, shouldn't a sifu's highest compliment on his teaching be the fact that he trained someone capable of hitting him???

[IronFist]

^ Yeah, like I said, ego.

I heard a student hit Bruce Lee once or something and Bruce like got mad and broke his nose. Wow, what a tough guy :rolleyes:

[Fu-Pow]

Hahaha....that's pretty funny. If I full out sparred either of my teachers no doubt I'd end up in the hospital.

I might be able to get in a few hits sure, anyone can do that, even complete beginners. But if they got in a few hits then I'd be the one going to the hospital.

This is probably why a lot of teachers don't spar with their students. They don't want to hurt them.

As somewhat of a teacher myself I've pretty resigned myself to not sparring with anyone under 1 year of dedicated training. Inevitably these people have zero control and but they often can manage to hit you using rudimentary fighting skills.

As an instructor you feel that you must hold back because you know that you are capable of inflicting more damage than they can. They then proceed to go all out on you because of lack of control and overt agressiveness.

You have 2 choices as a teacher:

1)You can take some lumps and let the student lose some faith in your ability.

2) You can match their level of agressiveness and potentially hurt them.

It's kind of a catch 22.

When you've been in MA's for a while it is pretty obvious who has power and good technique. I don't think you necessarily need to go around asking everyone to prove it.

To the beginner's eye it might be worth your while as you will learn a valuable lesson about who has skill and who does not.

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mat

My shooto teacher plays with us, when he's not crash-dieting


He doesn't spar with you when he's cutting weight? :confused:

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
This is probably why a lot of teachers don't spar with their students. They don't want to hurt them.

Um, so they can't control their power? You would think someone would have learned to control themselves by the time they're an instructor.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Hahaha....that's pretty funny. If I full out sparred either of my teachers no doubt I'd end up in the hospital.

I might be able to get in a few hits sure, anyone can do that, even complete beginners. But if they got in a few hits then I'd be the one going to the hospital.

This is probably why a lot of teachers don't spar with their students. They don't want to hurt them.

As somewhat of a teacher myself I've pretty resigned myself to not sparring with anyone under 1 year of dedicated training. Inevitably these people have zero control and but they often can manage to hit you using rudimentary fighting skills.

As an instructor you feel that you must hold back because you know that you are capable of inflicting more damage than they can. They then proceed to go all out on you because of lack of control and overt agressiveness.

You have 2 choices as a teacher:

1)You can take some lumps and let the student lose some faith in your ability.

2) You can match their level of agressiveness and potentially hurt them.

It's kind of a catch 22.

When you've been in MA's for a while it is pretty obvious who has power and good technique. I don't think you necessarily need to go around asking everyone to prove it.

To the beginner's eye it might be worth your while as you will learn a valuable lesson about who has skill and who does not.

That's crap. I know my thai boxing coach has power - I saw him break his opponent's rib in his last fight. I've broken someone's ribs in a fight. Neither of us has hurt any of the other guys while sparring. To say that you won't spar with your students because you will hurt them is a cop out.

You're right, it's pretty obvious who has power and who doesn't, but as we know, power doesn't equate to fighting skill.

If you take lumps while sparring with students, they shouldn't love faith in your ability. That's some crap that has come to being thanks to many TMA. their teachers won't spar with them, but they show them techniques and constantly make corrections and tell them stories of fights and such. The student builds this complex about his teacher that he is so incredibly awesome. In that case, yes, the student would lose faith. If the teacher was sparring with them from the get go, students would get in their heads that people can get hit regardless of skill level and it wouldn't be a big deal.

I've hit my coach plenty of times. I've thrown my bjj coach (although it's only happened twice) Do I have less respect for them? He11 no. I have more respect because they get in there and mix it up with us.

[FatherDog]

All of my coaches spar with their students on a regular basis. Hell, I've had to talk my submissions coach out of rolling with us on a couple occasions. He has this habit of forgetting that he's recently injured.

[FatherDog]

Also, SevenStar has sparred with full control with the correct and demonstrated his skill without harming it.

[Mr Punch]

Fu-Pow
As somewhat of a teacher myself I've pretty resigned myself to not sparring with anyone under 1 year of dedicated training. Inevitably these people have zero control and but they often can manage to hit you using rudimentary fighting skills.

As an instructor you feel that you must hold back because you know that you are capable of inflicting more damage than they can. They then proceed to go all out on you because of lack of control and overt agressiveness.

You have 2 choices as a teacher:

1)You can take some lumps and let the student lose some faith in your ability.

2) You can match their level of agressiveness and potentially hurt them.

"Rudimentary fighting skills!" Shock!!! Heaven help us! :D ;)
Not sure what you mean by this... do you mean innate ability? In which case as a teacher you should be sparring with them to find out just which aspects of their innate ability are going to be useful in your art (ie, which of their skills they are going to be able to use straight out and which of their skills they're going to be able to modify to fit in with the art).

During that sparring, the skills that are not going to be useful to them in their study of your art should be weeded out. For example, if they are always trying to nail you with a straight punch feint, and followed by an uppercut (I usually find noobs love their 'devastating' feints!!), you should show them the error of their ways and close them down lightly on the feint (or whatever you're art suggests for dealing with this). If they still go for the uppercut, not realising the potential danger of your shutting them down, you can:

1) point out that their combination was good when they nail you, so it goes into their head which tech/strategy you are talking about later, and then work it in a drill the next week or after the sparring, to show them why you had the upper hand;

2) hit them harder.

There are plenty of ways in which you can show a student that you have control without hospitalizing them... if you don't know these ways, maybe your control isn't so hot...?

One of my partners (same height, much stronger than I am, some ma exp, but not in wc, bout 25kg heavier than me) occasionally gets impatient and goes berserk. So I slap him. Like a ***** (lemme just add a bwuhahaha!!!)! I slap him with enough power to sting, every time he leaves an opening, and if he gets crazier (he used to, funnily enough he doesn't as much now) I turn a couple of well placed slaps into palms and drive him back/break his structure, take hold of his arms whilst driving him back/taking his structure, or set up a sweep/throw. He learns, and so do I.

(edit) In my boxing (I'm relatively new to that too) there's another noob guy who goes mad every time we spar. Now in this case, although I'm better than he is, I'm no teacher, and don't have so much control anyway probably. So in this case, I have to practise more technically: I can't just go ape back at him. I cover, and guard and bob n weave, and basically hit him with my (though I say so myself) **** fine jab everytime (and often before) he moves, occasionally rocking him with a straight right if he's getting too dangerous. So even at a noob level I'm learning and more importantly I'm able to control him, and show him that I'm controlling him. As a teacher can't you do that?

I'm not having a go at you Fu-Pow, I just disagree and I think you yourself are missing out on a lot of learning from your noobs. What, you wanna programme them to your way of moving before you spar with them? So what happens when you spar/fight with an untrained person/someone from another style? Maybe their "rudimentary fighting skills" will just about own you!

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by unkokusai
He doesn't spar with you when he's cutting weight? :confused: Nope.

I'd like to... maybe I'd have a chance to nail him in his weakened state! Not saying he doesn't spar, he just doesn't spar with us. When he's preparing for a fight he trains weights everyday for a couple or three hours, and does two or three hours boxing/thai/padwork/wrestling or newaza every day or every other day depending on how he feels.

I guess we're too crap to give him any extra benefit by risking injury and wasting energy sparring with us before a fight...! :( He does teach full-time at another gym, we're just his part-timers!:D

BTW, of further relevance to what I just said to Fu-Pow, I don't full-contact spar my internals teacher yet. I'm still the noob in that. He's always giving it the "hit me with what you've got" and demonstrating on me. Of course, as a seasoned vet in various fighting art nonsense with hopefully a relatively empty cup, when he says this I'm not going all out to nail him, but he is starting to realise that what I've got is dangerous, not useless (though he is one of these teachers who thinks his art has an answer to everything I think).

So I'm upping the pace on him, and he's slowing the pace on me, so it doesn't end up a ****ing match. If he upped the pace on me, to such an extent that as I was going harder on him, he gave me inordinate damage, would probably write him off as a dangerous ass and quit. As it is he's showing greater control the more I hit him with, which makes me think he's worth sticking with. Pretty soon I guess we're gonna take it to harder and harder contact sparring. If we don't I'll probably quit.

[yutyeesam]

A lot of instructors/sifus don't spar the beginners, but they do spar the intermediate and advanced students on a regular basis.

I don't see what the problem with this is.

123

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by Mat
Nope.

I'd like to... maybe I'd have a chance to nail him in his weakened state! Not saying he doesn't spar, he just doesn't spar with us. When he's preparing for a fight he trains weights everyday for a couple or three hours, and does two or three hours boxing/thai/padwork/wrestling or newaza every day or every other day depending on how he feels.



That surprises me, 'cause it's a great way to cut weight.

[David Jamieson]

I think sifus work techs and apps with intermediates and advanced, but there still isn't much in the way of sparring.

BUt even intermediates and advanced don't spar much with beginners. Unless the are helping to coach the beginner in the early phases of learning to activate the art.

I think it depends on the goals of the school. Which are actually the goals of th teacher ultimately.

But Muhammed alis coach did not spar with him and tehre are a lot of sifus out there who are too old to spar but can still teach the arts.

There's a lot of boxing coaches in the west that don't fight a lick and produce good fighters by training them with a method.

anyway, there's a time and place.

I don't think any sifu or sensei should be oblidged to spar with their students. It's up to them and has nothing to do with withholding or hiding or ego or any of it.

People want to learn fast but have to understand that most of them simply cannot. It takes time, don't waste yours or your teachers with useless indulgences of your own ego.

cheers

[Ironwind]

I used to spar with my ex- sifu at first I was wepped on but after a Few years of training I acually got him down with twin dragons play w pearl .... it was glorious.... then he made it harder for me... to stand that is

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Ironwind
I used to spar with my ex- sifu at first I was wepped on but after a Few years of training I acually got him down with twin dragons play w pearl .... it was glorious.... then he made it harder for me... to stand that is I must have missed that DBZ episode.

[Judge Pen]

My teacher spars with me everyweek (or did until I was injured). His teacher will spar with me as well when we get together. They both spar and teach at the same time. Sparring just above my level; pushing me to get better and forcing me to do the techniques that I need to get better at while sparring. Always pushing me outside my comfort zone but no to the point where I get frusterated or discouraged.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by IronFist
Um, so they can't control their power? You would think someone would have learned to control themselves by the time they're an instructor.

It's about intent. If your opponents "intent" is to hurt you (eg ego-filled beginners) and they lack control (ie beginners) then they will eventually hurt you.

I don't know Iron....maybe you are a grand pooba master who can just "play" with someone indefinitely while they try to lay the hurt on you.

For me if I am going to adequately defend myself (even in sparring) my intent must be somewhat serious. The problem is that my "intent" carries a lot more weight than a beginners without the body mechanics to back it up.

And I've only be practicing for 8 years. My CLF teacher has 40+ years of experience and my Taiji teacher 30+ years.

Do I really want to go there then?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
That's crap. I know my thai boxing coach has power - I saw him break his opponent's rib in his last fight. I've broken someone's ribs in a fight. Neither of us has hurt any of the other guys while sparring. To say that you won't spar with your students because you will hurt them is a cop out.

You're right, it's pretty obvious who has power and who doesn't, but as we know, power doesn't equate to fighting skill.

If you take lumps while sparring with students, they shouldn't love faith in your ability. That's some crap that has come to being thanks to many TMA. their teachers won't spar with them, but they show them techniques and constantly make corrections and tell them stories of fights and such. The student builds this complex about his teacher that he is so incredibly awesome. In that case, yes, the student would lose faith. If the teacher was sparring with them from the get go, students would get in their heads that people can get hit regardless of skill level and it wouldn't be a big deal.

I've hit my coach plenty of times. I've thrown my bjj coach (although it's only happened twice) Do I have less respect for them? He11 no. I have more respect because they get in there and mix it up with us.

"That's crap." What a charming way to start off an argument.

Anyways, I think it's up the instructor. There's alot of factors that go into to it (ie age difference, skill level, particular art, emphasis of the school, etc.)

I just wouldn't look down on an instructor because they won't free spar with their students.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Mat
"Rudimentary fighting skills!" Shock!!! Heaven help us! :D ;)
Not sure what you mean by this... do you mean innate ability? In which case as a teacher you should be sparring with them to find out just which aspects of their innate ability are going to be useful in your art (ie, which of their skills they are going to be able to use straight out and which of their skills they're going to be able to modify to fit in with the art).


During that sparring, the skills that are not going to be useful to them in their study of your art should be weeded out. For example, if they are always trying to nail you with a straight punch feint, and followed by an uppercut (I usually find noobs love their 'devastating' feints!!), you should show them the error of their ways and close them down lightly on the feint (or whatever you're art suggests for dealing with this). If they still go for the uppercut, not realising the potential danger of your shutting them down, you can:

1) point out that their combination was good when they nail you, so it goes into their head which tech/strategy you are talking about later, and then work it in a drill the next week or after the sparring, to show them why you had the upper hand;

2) hit them harder.

There are plenty of ways in which you can show a student that you have control without hospitalizing them... if you don't know these ways, maybe your control isn't so hot...?

One of my partners (same height, much stronger than I am, some ma exp, but not in wc, bout 25kg heavier than me) occasionally gets impatient and goes berserk. So I slap him. Like a ***** (lemme just add a bwuhahaha!!!)! I slap him with enough power to sting, every time he leaves an opening, and if he gets crazier (he used to, funnily enough he doesn't as much now) I turn a couple of well placed slaps into palms and drive him back/break his structure, take hold of his arms whilst driving him back/taking his structure, or set up a sweep/throw. He learns, and so do I.

(edit) In my boxing (I'm relatively new to that too) there's another noob guy who goes mad every time we spar. Now in this case, although I'm better than he is, I'm no teacher, and don't have so much control anyway probably. So in this case, I have to practise more technically: I can't just go ape back at him. I cover, and guard and bob n weave, and basically hit him with my (though I say so myself) **** fine jab everytime (and often before) he moves, occasionally rocking him with a straight right if he's getting too dangerous. So even at a noob level I'm learning and more importantly I'm able to control him, and show him that I'm controlling him. As a teacher can't you do that?

I'm not having a go at you Fu-Pow, I just disagree and I think you yourself are missing out on a lot of learning from your noobs. What, you wanna programme them to your way of moving before you spar with them? So what happens when you spar/fight with an untrained person/someone from another style? Maybe their "rudimentary fighting skills" will just about own you! [/QUOTE]

Your whole implication in your post is that I'm afraid to get hit by my junior classmates. I'm not and I spar them all the time. Sometimes they get the best of me and sometimes I get the best of them.

However, in my experience, at less than one year of dedicated training people lack the focus, control, discipline and character to free spar.

It's not that they can't fight. Everyone has some innate fighting ability. And sometimes they get lucky.

But MA's are an "investment in loss." You give up some of your innate ability up front so that you can increase your ability later on in a systematized way.

Jumping into free sparring without really understanding the rudiments of your art just reinforces your "innate" fighting mechanisms but also all the bad habits that go along with it.

The point of MAs is to take it to a higher level.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow


But MA's are an "investment in loss." You give up some of your innate ability up front so that you can increase your ability later on in a systematized way.

Jumping into free sparring without really understanding the rudiments of your art just reinforces your "innate" fighting mechanisms but also all the bad habits that go along with it.

The point of MAs is to take it to a higher level.

I can agree with most of this; however, I think you should let people of three to six months of experience start some free sparing excercises under close supervision. Tell them to focus on certain techniques and work on control, technique and footwork. This should help those with less inate ability build up some confidence in the techniqes they are learning while minimizing the bad habits under a more trained and watchful eye.

Also I think that sparring someone who is not only better, but better using the principles and techniques of your style will help drum some of the reliance out of innate abiltiy out of a student. I may be a good natural fighter, but when I keep getting hit, kicked, or thrown by a superior student then I have two options: quit or train harder and adapt.

[Ray Pina]

I've never "sparred" with my master.

I may have a question about something, usually of the "Yea, but what if they do this" variety and he allows me to do it full speed to demonstrate how.

This could lead some to think, well, he knows it's coming. But a few times he's interupted my sparring to yell at me for doing something and must have sensed my internal reaction and threw gloves on himself.... he comes with such ferocity, it really draines ones fighting spirit. And when he gets that look in the eye, oh man.

On the ground we can play more, but even then he gets kind of heavy handed with his locks.

[Meat Shake]

"I can agree with most of this; however, I think you should let people of three to six months of experience start some free sparing excercises under close supervision."

I got the sh!t kicked out of me my first day of shuai chiao.

"I've never "sparred" with my master. "
Master wang and master lin still spar, but I want nothing to do with fighting either of them right now. Its not the stories Im worried about, its the fact that Ive watched master wang plow through 5 of his students like it was a game.

A true teacher knocks down the idol his students make of him. Last week, I had a good friend who is a wrestler with an excellent shoot come to shuai chiao. Kirk had him shoot on us a ton of times, then teach us all the proper mechanics of a shoot. Instructors should not only step on the mat (when physically able, as some arent due to age) but have the humility to acknowledge what they know and what they dont know. Many instructors will not step on the mat for the pure and simple reason that they wish for their students to dwell in the misconception of their teachers god-like abilities.

[Oso]

A true teacher knocks down the idol his students make of him.

indeed and very sig worthy

but mine's occupied at the moment.


my favorite way to do this is with the simple phrase "I don't know but let's see what makes sense"

I've seen some teachers ****ing :toota: just because they want to be seen as 'all knowing'

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Meat Shake

A true teacher knocks down the idol his students make of him. Instructors should not only step on the mat (when physically able, as some arent due to age) but have the humility to acknowledge what they know and what they dont know. Many instructors will not step on the mat for the pure and simple reason that they wish for their students to dwell in the misconception of their teachers god-like abilities.

Best


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Ever

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Your whole implication in your post is that I'm afraid to get hit by my junior classmates.Sorry if that's the way you took it, but that's not what I meant at all, so it was your inference not my implication. Sorry if something gave you that impression.

Jumping into free sparring without really understanding the rudiments of your art just reinforces your "innate" fighting mechanisms but also all the bad habits that go along with it. Very good point. Also very important to remmeber when someone is coming from another art... I've just started an internal style and when pushed in their push hands, I switch back into wing chun or even boxing.

But that's why I think this is important:
me
1) point out that their combination was good when they nail you, so it goes into their head which tech/strategy you are talking about later, and then work it in a drill the next week or after the sparring, to show them why you had the upper handand why this is so important:
Judge Penn
however, I think you should let people of three to six months of experience start some free sparing excercises under close supervision. Tell them to focus on certain techniques and work on control, technique and footwork. This should help those with less inate ability build up some confidence in the techniqes they are learning while minimizing the bad habits under a more trained and watchful eye.The thing that I'm really cagey about when it comes to sparring before someone reaches a certain level, is that often arts base themselves on the old 'if I do this they do this' which is always a dangerous assumption.

Eg, many beginners in wc are taught that the other fist is always coming, mainly because many wc schools rely too much on the chain punch. So, if I trap this hand, the next hand is still coming so I can trap that one too, in a crossed hands position. Anyone sparring a noob or anyone from another style will know that this is nonsense. So again: your noobs and their lack of knowledge in your style, predictibility and control are a valuable test for you.

Even in a more realistic (from the start) and hands-on sparing approach like wrestling, you sometimes meet the old "If I pull them they pull back, if I push them they push back" which again doesn't account for the scores of situations where the opposite will happen and how you can use that too. So before the noob is trained (programmed) in that response, the instructor has a valuable chance to show him why natural reactions may be wrong/dangerous and why the art has arrived at certain assumptions about the way the body moves.

Good post Shake.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Best


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Ever Man, I've seen you say that so many times! Does that mean the statements are getting better and better, or are you just working as a hostess!? :eek: :p :D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Best


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Ever

Seconded.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Meat Shake

A true teacher knocks down the idol his students make of him. Last week, I had a good friend who is a wrestler with an excellent shoot come to shuai chiao. Kirk had him shoot on us a ton of times, then teach us all the proper mechanics of a shoot. Instructors should not only step on the mat (when physically able, as some arent due to age) but have the humility to acknowledge what they know and what they dont know. Many instructors will not step on the mat for the pure and simple reason that they wish for their students to dwell in the misconception of their teachers god-like abilities.
Meatshake has hopped into the ring with the correct, even though he's the teacher, and has destroyed the idol of himself.

[Becca]

It's about intent. If your opponents "intent" is to hurt you (eg ego-filled beginners) and they lack control (ie beginners) then they will eventually hurt you.
I have had alot more trouble from non-beginners being ego-filled and out-of-control. The beginner may not have much control but lack of control is deliberate, and usually comes from someone who has been there a while and is feeling full of themself. A sure fire sign of this is when they hit hard them whine when you follow kwoon ettiquette and hit'em back. Or they hit elbows in arm banging even after you point out to them they are hurting/ potentially injurring you.

[Judge Pen]

I think its invaluable to cross hands with as many different people as you can; form different disciplines and skill levels. I like sparring newbies because they can be less predictable and potentially more representative of a self-defense type encounter (i.e. more innate ability than formal training). I like sparring people who have bought into a system and truely fight from it 'cause you see and understand the strategy behind their fighting principles. I like fighting the ego-filled students who are startignt o get good and get full of themselves because they can present a challenge. I like sparring kids because of their enthuiasm and agility (just try to out step them). You can take any type of sparring encounter from the most friendly to the most contentious and learn from it. My teachers feel the same way because they are not shy to cross hands with any of their students.

[Becca]

I agree on most of those points JP, but I really get annoyed with the eagotists from time to time. But sparring kids is just strait-out fun! There's nothing like seeing a timid kid develop the self confidance to take on someone 3-4 times thier size!:cool:

[scotty1]

My instructor spars with us. I think it's good to be able to feel
what it is you're trying to achieve.

Plus it's good for him both as a teacher and a 'lifelong student'

:D

[SifuAbel]

I spar with my students.

My teacher did too. We asked him to stop. His iron palm hand was crushing even with the lightest blows. Ever been hit with a lead lined glove or a sap? You get the picture.

[IronFist]

^ What's a sap?

[Mr Punch]

A gullible person. You better not get hit by one, some of them can be quite heavy.

[SifuAbel]

A sap is a bag of lead wrapped in leather with a handle.

A rounded one is also known as a blackjack. The flat one is a slapper.

The flat ones are still called saps.


http://www.eliteselfdefense.com/sapgloves.htm

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/misc.htm

[SimonM]

Yeah, my sifu spars with me. There are sifu's who wont? Wow.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SimonM
Yeah, my sifu spars with me. There are sifu's who wont? Wow.
There are boxing coaches, etc. that won't too, because they're too old or out of condition, etc. Can Ian Thorpe's coach swim well enough to win Olympic gold? Doesn't devalue their knowledge and ability to teach however. I think there's a lot more to the argument than simply "will" or "won't".

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by SifuAbel
The flat one is a slapper.I dunno, met some fat slappers in my time. :eek:

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by Serpent
There are boxing coaches, etc. that won't too, because they're too old or out of condition, etc. Can Ian Thorpe's coach swim well enough to win Olympic gold? Doesn't devalue their knowledge and ability to teach however. I think there's a lot more to the argument than simply "will" or "won't". Sure, I agree if your sifu is that old and out-of-shape... but since most kung fu styles make a big thing about how you can practise till you're as old as Sifu Abel or even older ( ;) :p :D ) one would hope that most sifu could still show you a thing or two in light contact if nothing else.

There is a lot more to the argument than "will or won't" but there's also a lot more than comparing it to boxing and swimming. I don't want my kungfu to be like my boxing, nor my swimming...! :D

I went to a seminar with Ip Chun a couple of years ago (think he was knocking on 70 at the time), and he was actively and easily slapping some people around in chi sao. Admittedly chi sao is very much not sparring but it can involve a fair amount of taxing physical contact for an old geezer.

If a sifu is that old or out of shape one would hope his most senior representative wouldn't have a problem with sparring.

[Ming Yue]

Yep. Sifu spars rounds with all of us. He winds up sparring almost continuously. Generally we'll do a few rounds of live instruction, then just free spar.

I've also never been in a situation where the instructor didn't spar. I have studied under a Master who was ill and no longer fighting, but he'd jump in and pop me a couple times every once in a while just for fun.

My first instructor is gone now, but both he and my current Sifu were fighters first and foremost. They both just light up in the ring.

[SifuAbel]

:p

[LEGEND]

Sifu Abel...I see u are using the FIST INC. Headgears...is that a quality headgear to use with JKD/KENPO gloves...advice appreciated.

[Meat Shake]

"What's a sap?"

Im not quite sure, but you dont want to get hit by B. Sapp (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/Yelims/2064.jpg) either.
:eek:

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by LEGEND
Sifu Abel...I see u are using the FIST INC. Headgears...is that a quality headgear to use with JKD/KENPO gloves...advice appreciated.

I'll say this about FIST headgear. Once you replace the lexan face shield for a metal grid(The lexan will buckle and cut you.), It becomes an effective tool for full contact fight training. You can take alot more for a lot longer. You can effectively double your full contact time in your regimen.

The dual foam system is superb. The outer foam is thick, dulling the pinpoint of the strike. The inner foam is spongier and takes the bluntness. The only draw back with the models we used was the material it was made of. The canvas was unyeilding and would cut you open if you skimmed with exposed skin. skimming Elbow shots with no padding always resulted in bloody caps.

At higher levels of fighting, its not IF you'll get a head hit, but when. Even pro boxers spar with head gear. The only thing that suffers is the neck from all the heavy bouncing. I've taken full round kicks on the face without too much trouble. But again the neck was sore for days.

The chinese fingered gloves are a good cross between boxing gloves and grapple gloves. Affording at least 10 ounces of glove with the ability to grab.

Some would argue that masks like this train one to just take the head shot. I disagree. The trauma may be reduced but the shock of impact is still there. You may not get a black eye but it still rattles you severely when you get a full on shot. It does train you to avoid the strike.

[fa_jing]

my teacher sparred with us...

[SimonM]

I guess I got really lucky with my school. The head sifu at my kwoon is one of the nicest guys around. He is also really good at gaguing the skill level of the person he is fighting. He always responds with just enough force in a spar to make his student try their hardest. As for the other instructors well, let me share this exemplary story.

One of the more senior of the assistant instructors at my kwoon is Mark. Now a few weeks back there was a day when almost nobody was at the kwoon, just me, mark, and two others who were more interested in a jiujutsu match with each other than in any sort of organized class. So Mark took me aside and the two of us worked on Wing Chun drills. At first I was being over cautious about actually hitting Mark since neither of us were using any pads of any sort - not even mouthguards - (and I only usually barehand spar with my brother) but he told me to try harder to hit him.

So I did.

I made his gums bleed with one sun punch to the mouth. And his response (after checking to make sure his teeth weren't damaged) was to say "good work, let's try that again".

It makes me sad to see that not everyone is as lucky as myself as far as easy going teachers goes. I guess I should count my blessings. :)

[Ironwind]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I must have missed that DBZ episode.

So you never hit your sensei, MK !?

I find that highly upsetting to some one who learns their technique from watching kid shows.

[Ray Pina]

Excellent post Judge Pen!

Also, Serpent raises a very valuable point. Notre Dame players didn't ask Lou Holtz to run a fly pattern when he told them to go long ... they just do it.

Likewise, my master long proved to me that he is formidable and can fight -- the monthly challenges that he accepts and fights at the school at 64 doesn't hurt that view point either.

But I don't need to spar with him and a lot of my classmates don't want to train at the same level and intensity that I do. That's another reason why I like to compete, fight out and meet with martial artists outside.

I view this as university now. I've been learning to kick and punch for 26 years. I got it.

Now I'm studying detial. How to get a little more power. How to get better structure AND keep what I have until old age.

Punching someone in the head or yelling from the sidelines "Kick harder," does not a master make.

Balance and where one is and what one is looking for is important I guess.

[Judge Pen]

My teacher is closer to my age (actually younger) and he doesn't get to spar regularly unless it is with me, his dad, or his brother. I've only had the opportunity to spar his father a handful of times. The most amazing thing with sparring someone of that level for me is that (1) he spars just above your level so that you learn without being discouraged and (2) he usually spars you using your best techniques. If you are a kicker, he will out-kick you. If you are a puncher, he will out-punch you. He doesn't spar with me often, but it's a treat every time.