wing chun limited??

[TjD]

from what i've seen in posts, many people see wing chun as limited to close range fighting - personally i dont believe this at all

what i've started to think is that many people go to watch a wing chun class, and see a bunch of people doing chi sau; and this leads them to assume that wing chun is all hands and everything else you hear along those lines

what i feel a lot of people arent looking at is theres also chi sau for your legs (chi guk), and past that there is a version of "chi sau" in which you first close the range and then "chi sau" with every weapon at your disposal

the thing with these is that it can take a few years before your sifu is willing to show you these, because they take a LOT of control, and not many people would like to be hit full force in the knee or groin, among other things

so what im saying is that these add the other elements to wing chun that many people think that it lacks; because people say they have experience with wing chun after only a couple years - then leave thinking they know it all, and have never progressed beyond normal chi sau to see what the art fully has to offer

i dont know its probably a little bit of a rant, but i just felt like it was an issue that came up a lot and it irked me a bit :)

and that really wasnt a question - so does anyone else agree with me, or see different reasons for people thinking wing chun is "limited"?

travis

[JasBourne]

If all you see of WC is a training tool like chi sao, then it is easy to conclude the art is lacking. That's why I am personally opposed to 'chi sao competitions' - it's only a TOOL, not a fighting technique.

I've watched experienced WC fighters full-on spar with each other and with folks of other styles and disciplines - chi sao and chi gerk are used only long enough to determine the other person's movement. WC is way more than chi sao.

It's like if all you saw was the dummy form, and you conclude that WC is lacking because what good is that training against an opponent that moves.

;)

--------------------------------------
"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. "
- Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

[WCFighter]

There have been a lot of discussions about whether Wing Chun is a complete martial art.

Empty Hand,Footwork ,Kicks, Weapons, Joint locks, and ground fighting are usually the items that people bring up to confirm or deny its completeness.

I am not speaking for all Wing Chuners here, but
I believe that you will rarely find a Wing Chun school that teaches a lot of Chi-Na (jointlocks) and a lot of Groundfighting, if any. Some do, most don't. If they do, they learnt it elsewhere and have incorporated it as part of their modern-times curriculum.

The core of Wing Chun is fighting upright (not on the floor) striking with your hands, elbows, knees, and feet (and weapons).

Center-line, Central-line theories, simultaneous deflection and attack (using both hands at the same time), low kicks, chi sau, roll punches, thrusting finger attacks, elbow attacks, and the wooden dummy training is what distinguishes us from most styles.

Chi-Sau is an excellent way to develop contact reflexes, but it should not be the only portion of your arsenal.


You need to know how to use Wing Chun in a non-chi-sau context, and learn how to fight in
ALL the ranges (there isn't just one (as in toe-to-toe chisau)!)

Precontact, contact, exhange, pursuit, and retreat ranges.

You should also learn to deal with attacks of different fighting methods (boxing , TKD, Karate,
grapplers, CLF, and Wing Chuners).

So, after all my rambling, is usually limited to upright fighting, but it is not limited to chi-sau range.

P.S. If your are shooting or throwing
projectiles at your opponent from a
distance, then you are fighting long-range
style.

To hit someone with your hands or feet,
you have to enter your opponent's personal
space, and this is called close range
fighting. So I believe all empty hand
styles are close quarters.

The difference in styles lies in
how long they stay in someone's personal
space. Short (quick in and out techniques),
or Prolonged (go in , overwhelm them
with a shower of attacks until you have
finished them).

Wing Chun uses the prolonged close quarter
method of attack.

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[TjD]

i wouldnt call wing chun fighting prolonged at all... one of the concepts is to finish them as quickly as possible :) my feeling is when you fight someon right, a whole fight would consist of entering and finishing them...

and to jasbourne, i think most people who have done wing chun would say that chi sau != fighting

but what i have noticed in chi sau is that it usually consists of one person trying to take control of the other's body, pounding them for a few strikes, and when that occurs it returns to the roll and repeats again :) so at least for me in a fight it would be contact -> control -> destroy; in chi sau you cant follow up with the destroy once you have control because its your kung fu brother/sister :)

travis

[TjD]

why does a martial art need joint locks or grappling to be considered "complete"??? i think wing chun fully handles/covers any combat situation you can get into and therefore would be complete to me...

saying wing chun isnt complete because it doesnt use joint locks is like saying karate isnt complete because it doesnt have a bong sau


IMHO i wouldnt use a joint lock in a fight because when (if) i ever got into a fight i would want it over as quickly as possible (esp if he has friends)... a joint lock isnt going to neutralize the threat quick enough

now i dont know much (if anything) about joint locking - so they might be a great way to take out your opponent quickly and end the fight, but if i get my opponents hand in a position where i could lock it, i'd rather use my other hand to strike him in the head or neck or any other vital point instead of wasting my time with a lock :)

not to bash locks, this is only my limited viewpoint on them :) i'd love to hear more about them and how effective they are/can be

travis

[wingchunwsl]

i thought chi sau wasn't fighting or sparring...

[unclaimed effort]

You are right chi sao is not fighting or sparring. Because basically, no one in the street is gonna roll with your hands. Chi Sau is to develop sensitivity in your hands so you can detect your opponents next move. You will have developed this through diligent chi sau training. Chi Sau isn't fighting or sparring but it is applied when you fight or spar. And thanks for seperating fighting and sparring. Some people don't realize the difference.

I can be like one of those philosophers who hide everything in poems, but instead I can tell you the true secret of martial arts in one word:

PRACTICE!

[Chum Kil]

Chi Sau is a drill.

John

Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.

[Watchman]

>>>I believe that you will rarely find a Wing Chun school that teaches a lot of Chi-Na (jointlocks) and a lot of Groundfighting, if any. Some do, most don't. If they do, they learnt it elsewhere and have incorporated it as part of their modern-times curriculum.<<<

Learnt it from somewhere else? Sorry, but no. I never learned it from "anywhere else" and neither did my sifu.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

Not to tire of learning is wisdom;
Not to weary of teaching is benevolence.
-- Tzu-kung

[BeiKongHui]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and to jasbourne, i think most people who have done wing chun would say that chi sau != fighting [/quote]

...and that is exactly what gives WCers a bad rep. Too many of us mistake training methods and tools for fighting methods. Chi Sao only might help you out against your classmates but to be a well rounded fighter you have to free spar and against non WC people if possible.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Some people look at a piece of wood and see nothing but wood. Others see the potential for much more. Wing Chun is kind of like that ;)

The limitations in Wing Chun usually have more to do with the person practicing than with the style. People limit themselves by concentrating on things they are good at and what comes easily and letting the hard things wait. After time they can even become complacent and forget about some fo the "harder" things.

Wing Chun is as complete as you want it to be, you just have to be willing to open your eyes to the possibilities :eek: There is Chin Na within Wing Chun just as there is a limited amount of groundfighting. Wing Chun is a style primarily for stand up fighting but you do need to be able to at least get back on your feet if you fall down :D . Some people do take things from other arts to round out thier Wing Chun. In some cases this is because they did not learn all that the art had to offer. In other cases they found something they liked and suited them which they were able to incorporate. A lot will also depend on the most likely situation you will face. For example, as a Police Officer I had to be able to control someone rather then beat them to death :rolleyes: although sometimes I wanted to :p . If I were in some parts of the Midwest where wrestling is a big thing then I might want to learn a little more groundfighting. Anyhow, the potential is what you make it. Don't become limited by the style but use the style to free yourself.

Oh, one last thing :p Chi Sau is not fighting! Chi Sau is a drill and if you make it into a competition then you have missed the point and will inhibit your learning. The skills developed can and do carry over for fighting but Chi Sau itself is not fighting. But then again, what do I know? :p

Peace,

Dave :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[WCFighter]

TjD

You misunderstood me. I guess I should have
used different words than short, and prolonged.

What I meant was some people (non-wing chun)
run in, hit, run out and use this type of
fighting, so they in essence do not stay
really close to their opponent for very long.

Wing Chuners , on the other hand, go into
very close quarters, and shower their opponent
with strikes until he is defeated; and yes,
in the shortest amount of time possible.

My use of "prolonged presence in the opponent's
personal space" was just to highlight the fact
that we don't run in , hit, and then run out, and was not to meant to say that we like
prolonging fights.


TjD

I don't personally think that Wing Chun
is incomplete; even if some branches do not
have jointlocks and groundfighting.

The principles of Wing Chun take care of that;
no matter if you're standing up or on the floor.

As for joint locks and groundfighting in
my lineage, it isn't really emphasized.
Maybe in the grading levels after becoming
a Sifu. We do have arm breaks that we learn
as a result of Chum Kil and the Wooden Dummy.
But not the type of stuff that aikido people
learn.

I also agree that I would rather strike someone
rather than attempt a joint lock of some
sort. Windows of opportunity to hit your
opponent are only present for milliseconds
and I would be to slow to apply such a lock
at this stage of my training.

Watchman

It's great that your sifu knows
joint locks and groundfighting. Mine does too
although these things have not been part of
my curriculum, and I am close to becoming a
Sifu myself. Maybe these are extra secrets
taught later. Who knows? But I know that
in most schools (not yours) these topics
are rarely taught.

"Kick his ass, Sea-Bass!" - Dumb and Dumber

[ATENG]

most wingchunners will agree that chisao is NOT fighting. i wouldhope so anyway...

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

[whippinghand]

TJD,
What if someone did a joint lock on you??

[TjD]

i'd have a friend punch them in the head:)

actually i really dont know, i havent had much experience with grapplers yet - my wing chun needs a helluva lot more work before i start training with other styles :) it depends on the joint lock

travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[whippinghand]

no, it doesn't depend on the joint lock. The point is: if you don't know the answer to that and the answer is not in your system of wing chun, as taught by your sifu, then your system is NOT complete. That's what being a complete martial art is about. And yes, joint locks are part of Wing Chun (complete Wing Chun).

[TjD]

well, one of the MOST important things my sifu has taught me, was how to teach myself ;)

im sure if i had someone perform a few armbars on me i could figure out the appropriate move to get out of it - its all in the system, you just have to know how to use it

being taught a set routine will get you nowhere, IMHO experience is the best way to learn

travis

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[whippinghand]

exactly