Question about Yang Shao Hou's Tai Chi

[shaolinche]

I know that Yang Shao Hou had his small frame Tai chi and also knew the large frame, does anyone know of him practicing two large frames Old Yang Style Tai Chi? Does anyone know if he practiced a large frame of Tai Chi that was only for the "indoor students"?

[QuaiJohnCain]

This might sting, but-

"Old Yang" was CHEN STYLE. If there were any additional Large Frame forms that YSH practiced other than what his father taught him, it was Chen's Lao Jia, as YSH indeed studied under Chen Qing Ping alongside Wu Yu Xiang. It's interesting to note that "Small Frame" in either Yang or Wu(Hao) styles popped up after they trained with Chen Qing Ping who was the purveyor of Chens Small Frame (Xiao Jia/Shiao Jar) at the time.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

shaolinche- i dont know if yang shao hao studied some kind of large frame.

as far as I heard, yang lu chan studied chen and later met Wu Yu
xiang who found the 'Tai Chi Classics' in salt shop. the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing.

[shrub]

'the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods' -

So what exactly are the conflicts - please enlighten us

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

chen methods and taiji classics conflicts: i dont know what he felt was needed to be changed and why. its not my job to mind read with the dead.

If you know what the yang and chen forms look like you can see the differences yourself.

i would say palm, stances, breathing, soft verses hard, circles, use of hip and waist, coiling of back and spine.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing.
Yeah, right. Do you honestly think YLC, as CLOSE as he was to the Chen Family, would have even been ALLOWED to do that? Come on man! "Old Yang" seems to have five or six forms out there that aren't exactly similar. (Erle M comes to mind) None of them have verifiable lineages. More likely these forms are Wu Hao Small frame heavily influenced by some in the Yang Cheng Fu crowd addicted to the romanticism of having a "Rare" and "Old" form, and, are quite simply MAKING THIS STUFF UP to fit that romanticism. "Cross-Pollination" of styles creates this kind of confusion as well.

There's no doubt, hovever, that the Yang family kept the real deal away from the Manchus, hence some of the super-soft crap floating around out there. Yang Cheng Fu was NOT all soft, and the Yang family also admits that he demonstrated moves from the CHEN Pao Chui form to his students to fine tune thier Fa Jing. Just something to think about....

[brody]

QuaiJohnCain,

Is "Old Yang" the Guang Ping Yang Style? Guang Ping is said to be the connection between Chen and Modern Yang.

http://www.guangpingyang.org/history/history.htm

[QuaiJohnCain]

No, Guang Ping is Guang Ping, as defined by Wang Jao Yu. The Chen influence is undeniable. But still, Wang made up his own form, hence the distinction from the Yang family.




Originally posted by brody
QuaiJohnCain,

Is "Old Yang" the Guang Ping Yang Style? Guang Ping is said to be the connection between Chen and Modern Yang.

http://www.guangpingyang.org/history/history.htm

[brody]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
No, Guang Ping is Guang Ping, as defined by Wang Jao Yu. The Chen influence is undeniable. But still, Wang made up his own form, hence the distinction from the Yang family.

In the Yang Tai Chi community, do the majority feel or believe that Yang Lu-Chan never create the Guang Ping style?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Basically Guang ping is claimed to be what yang pan hao was teaching in guang ping perfecture before teaching elsewhere in china. earls m's Old Yang form is another form with several combined yang/chen movements like guang ping before it was finalized by yang chen fu.
Yang Lu chan rounded off many of the chen moves and you see this when watching guang ping or earl m's old yang forms.

[shrub]

Ma,

Stop ducking the question. Back up your comment about chen taichi conflicting with Tai Chi Classics.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

was i dodging? i gave you my honest answer (and i dont have time while at work to get in a heavy conversation). look at wu yu xiang and yang lu chans forms...they dont look nearly anything like chen style of taiji because those guys changed it due to their own interpretation of the classics, the political situations at the time, and other variables. as for yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did.

lets look at these classic sayings-
"in any action the body should be light, agile and all the parts connected like pearls on a thread." - well chen uses explosive movements so there is violation #1. the older yang forms have some explosive moves, currently the new yang form is 100% soft.

"in any action is held erect without leaning in any direction" - chen has alot of leaning. there are several movements of chen that have leaning in them. two examples are fling body and walk obliquely.

these could be some of the things yang may have been looking at...but like i said...i dont know what he was actually thinking cause i am not a mind reader, nor speak with the dead.

there was scholar at one time names Wu Tunan who felt that Chen style wasnt even taiji at all, but that is not what i am saying.


i learned laojia yi lu from chen zhen lei and erlu (pao chui) from chen xiaowang. this is after many years of practicing both Yang style form 2 of Fu zhong Wens disciples in virginia. I also have plenty of exposure of guang ping from a student of kou lien ying in va.

here is a form on the internet that has yang/chen flavor. it s EARL!!

http://www.taichiamerica.com/oldyangstyle.htm

ok let the bashing begin....

[shrub]

Great!! You've just lost all credibility by bringing up Earl.
Now I know where you are coming from. Case closed.

[GLW]

"yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did."

That assumes a whole lot. Yang Luchan was an indentured servant and it is on record that his children and I am not sure but it may have been up through Yang Chengfu that were illiterate. As in they could not read and write...not that uncommon.

So, any interaction with Taijiquan Theory and the "Classics" would have come from their students. While he may well have been quite talented, scholarly is not a word I would associate with someone that has to have the classics told to them.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by brody
In the Yang Tai Chi community, do the majority feel or believe that Yang Lu-Chan never create the Guang Ping style?

Well, I'm not in the Yang crowd, but, no, Guang Ping is a culmination of what YBH taught Wang Jao Yu, and Wang's own input combined. If Wang did not put changes of his own into it, he probably would have just kept calling it Yang style, now wouldn't he?

BRODY- thanks for the link. If you look at the lineage page on that site there's a pic of the 3rd generation bearer, Kuo Lien Ying, look at that posture, that's about as CHEN as it gets!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
Basically Guang ping is claimed to be what yang pan hao was teaching in guang ping perfecture before teaching elsewhere in china.
Bull. The real changes to Yang style came with Yang Cheng Fu. YBH never "changed" anything per se beyond not going so deep (due to Imperial robes), and hiding the spiral energy from the Manchus ( the "rounding off"). He probably took the Fa Jings out too. Chen forms can be performed that way and still be called Chen, duh. But when it comes to YBH's disciples that WERE given the real martial aspects (as opposed to what got shown to the Manchus) BIG, outward spirals were trained and then brought inside, just like, ahem, CHEN style. Lots of evidence for this in Guang Ping and Wu Hao training curriculums. Wu Meng Xia's (a disciple of YBH) writings tell of this as well.

As for the "finalizations" Yang Cheng Fu made, he REALLY kept stuff hidden, as EVERYONE wanted to learn from him, but he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things, so there's no wonder he made the forms that he did (all soft, even tempo, etc) but his real DISCIPLES got extra training- from the CHEN system. The Yang family ADMITS this.



earls m's Old Yang form is another form with several combined yang/chen movements like guang ping before it was finalized by yang chen fu.
Yang Lu chan rounded off many of the chen moves and you see this when watching guang ping or earl m's old yang forms. [/B]

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
was i dodging? i gave you my honest answer (and i dont have time while at work to get in a heavy conversation). look at wu yu xiang and yang lu chans forms...they dont look nearly anything like chen style of taiji because those guys changed it due to their own interpretation of the classics,
No, the "changes" were to hide the real stuff from Manchus and deal with Imperial robes. It's sad to me that so many want to practice these WATERED DOWN ways of training, rather that doing a curriculum like what YBH really did do, which is CHEN training exercises and curriculums. Hard practice. Fa Jing. Big outward circles compacting down to little ones versus practicing the hidden spirals from the beginning. SPARRING. All of that was removed to make things easy for the Imperials, whom did not recieve MARTIAL training curriculums. THAT was for DISCIPLES.



the political situations at the time, and other variables. as for yang changing the form because they didnt conform to how he felt the classics were is scholarly theory as to why he made changes that he did.
Classics schmastics, YLC couldn't read. He TRAINED.




lets look at these classic sayings-
"in any action the body should be light, agile and all the parts connected like pearls on a thread." - well chen uses explosive movements so there is violation #1. the older yang forms have some explosive moves, currently the new yang form is 100% soft.
I'm surprised you say you are a student of Chen Xiaowang yet would say something like this. Fa Jing is any given jin performed really, really fast. The prerequisite for this is what you just quoted above! Take a video of him doing a Fa-Jing, and use a good video player to slow it down... You'll find that his form is EXACTLY the same as when he would do the movement slowly, without explosiveness...


"in any action is held erect without leaning in any direction" - chen has alot of leaning. there are several movements of chen that have leaning in them. two examples are fling body and walk obliquely.
UUhh, Wu styles lean like hell.... The classics are saying not to overextend your weight on one foot or the other, this does NOT require the spine to be plumb with the ground....



here is a form on the internet that has yang/chen flavor. it s EARL!!

http://www.taichiamerica.com/oldyangstyle.htm

ok let the bashing begin.... [/B]

I've seen that clip. It's interesting, sure. Erle can FIGHT, I'll give him that. He's even pretty good at applications. But his "Hao Chuan" is very Yang Cheng Fu flavor, and some of those FaJings look pretty dubious to be considered correct from either a Chen or Yang perspective.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

qiaunjohncain said_ "he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things"

1949 was the communist take over. yang chen fu died 1936. get your facts straight.


shrub- i told you where i was coming from and i am open minded to different aspects of yang even if its earl. so credibility is lost with you. so while you hide in your pitiful negative nihilistic world of ignorance hiding behind a name. i am an open and honest. the reason why i rarely come to chat rooms is disagreeables like you.

yang lu chan may have been illiterate but was friends with Wu yu xiang who may have explained classics to him. therefore with opened mindedness and research their taiji progressed and evolved. somethig that rarely happens with people on this board- taiji progression.

matt

[GLW]

"yang lu chan may have been illiterate but was friends with Wu yu xiang who may have explained classics to him. therefore with opened mindedness and research their taiji progressed and evolved. somethig that rarely happens with people on this board- taiji progression."

It would seem unlikely that a person such as Yang Luchan would have gleaned his knowledge and skill from anything but practice.

While there may have been ideas from the "Classics" that once dropped into a person of skill's ears would lead to certain apporaches being taken, this is more the empirical result based approach as opposed to a scholarly philosophical approach.

Wu WAS a scholar to some degree. However, the salt shop version of his "Classics" is pretty far fetched and has been dealt with in a few books and articles. Much more likely is that Wu wrote the stuff himself - transcribing his own thoughts, those of his teachers, and in typical traditional fashion, not taking credit for it since that would be simply not done.

I would also doubt that Yang depended overly much on any explanation of "Classics" simply out of Confucian order..."If much of your understanding comes from books, it is better not to read..." so the paraphrased saying translates.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
[B]qiaunjohncain said_ "he decided to kiss up to the commies and be Confucian about things"

1949 was the communist take over. yang chen fu died 1936. get your facts straight.




OOPS, you right.....

My whine on that note is that YCF bothered to cozy up to govenment authority, motivating him to move the bulk of the goods in his art to the "Indoor" arena. Sad, but still, not as bad as what the PRC government is doing to the Chinese Martial Arts these days.

[shrub]

Ma,

You wouldn't have made such irresponsible and uncorroborated statements if you were open-minded and knowledgeable about Tai Chi. Your description of the Chen movements was incorrect. As I've said before, case closed....... and as Earl would say: goodday.

[shrub]

Ma,

Just to show you how wrong you are, here is an excerpt from the English version of the book 'Chen Style Taijiquan' widely available in N. America (see Tai Chi Magazine):

In p. 155, Walk Obliquely, Chen Xiaowang clearly stated
"Points to remember:
1. ........pay attention to keeping body and head ERECT, and not bending waist."

The accompanying pictures clearly show him erect and not bending as you stated. In the same book, Feng Zhiqiang shows the application of the move. He was also doing it ERECT. In fact, I've checked all my videos and books from Ma Hong, Chen Zhenglei etc. and from all my Chen lessons here and in China ...... NO ONE ever teach you to bend.

Obviously you don't know what you are talking about or else you are trying to distort the facts to suit your own prejudice.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

the only person here making any kind of intellectual reply here and i am getting anything out of...... is GLW.

my original statement was:
"as far as I heard, yang lu chan studied chen and later met Wu Yu
xiang who found the 'Tai Chi Classics' in salt shop. the classics of taiji conflicted with some of the chen taiji methods so that was one reason why yang lu chan changed it, he also wanted to protect techniques from manchus, and make it easier for imperial family. the old yang fame still has some jumping, stomping and fajing."

notice i said as far as i "heard". its not from a book i read nor did i assume it to be factual, but after analysis it could be a valid theory as to why yang changed his chen taiji.

maybe yang did gleam all of his knowledge from practice alone. your point glw, seems reasonable.

shrub- i was taught to bend forward on walk obliquely from two chen teachers. one is a chen zhen lei disciple and hosts chen zhen lei and the other is a disciple of chen xiao wang. i know the book your talking about and chen xiao wang does do it verticle. however that form is not laojia either....its a short form he created not from laojia but xiao or xin jia.

nice rebuttle but case open.

[shrub]

Wu, Sun, and Wu are more recent modifications . According to your logic, they should be even more "genuine" than Yang...... otherwise why would they change it ?

[shrub]

"i was taught to bend forward on walk obliquely from two chen teachers. one is a chen zhen lei disciple and hosts chen zhen lei and the other is a disciple of chen xiao wang. "

Hey, I was taught by these same 2 teachers. They told me that they used to have this guy who couldn't stay upright but kept leaning in their class. They concluded that this guy was beyond hope as he was leaning too much to the Yang and not balanced by the Yin.

I was also taught secrets by Wudang priests - the same ones that transmitted all their secrets to Earl. They told me I am right and you are wrong.

Case closed.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

maybe we arent talking about the same chen posture then-

the one i am talking about is where after the white crane spreads wings right and left arm circle and then one goes into a brush knee like motion with a left hook hand. THIS IS THE POSTURE I WAS MENTIONING THAT WHEN THE PRACTITIONER SWEEPS AROUND LEFT KNEE THEY BEND FORWARD WHILE THE RIGHT HAND SWEEPS BY RIGHT EAR THEN THE PRACTITIONER FINALLY ENDS UP IN A ERECT GONG BU WITH LEFT HOOK HAND AND RIGHT PALM LIKE A BRUSH KNEE. the walking part of Walk obliquely is done erect...so i agree with you on that part.- case still open....

SHRUG SAID "I was also taught secrets by Wudang priests - the same ones that transmitted all their secrets to Earl. They told me I am right and you are wrong."

about earl......some people who study the Chen Pan Ling's form (a combination of chen, yang and wu jian chien taijiquan) say Earls old yang form and Chen Pan Lings form are nearly identicle. So either earl copied it from chen Pan ling people, earls teacher Chang Yiu-Chun copied it from someone, or maybe there is another explaination. at one time earl did go to wudang shan to learn more about taijiquan. its great that he still considers himself a student of the art and keeps refining and improving himself.

as for right and wrong...in essence who is really right and who is really wrong?...it doesnt matter....that is a dualistic way of thinking...what matters is finding truth and knowledge to make the individual a better martial artist.

[shrub]

Case Closed!!

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i learned that form yang jwing ming...i guess thats not legit either.

[jun_erh]

what was the purpose in changing from chen style to yang style? Why didn't Yang Luchan just do tai chi the exact same way as his teacher?

Is there anything in the lu chan or shou hou forms that is not found in chen or yang chenfu style?

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I got the imperial yang taijiquan vcd's in the mail this week (2 different teachers) and after watching them. it looks nothing like chen at all. guang ping looks more like chen that this imperial taiji that the yangs taught in beijing when they first came. so whatever they taught in yongnian county guang ping perfecture is much different that when they later went to beijing.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i showed the videoes of the Imperial yang taiji to two of my teachers. the chinese instructor told me that when imperial yang came out into the public eye it shocked the taiji community.

as for my other teacher- we talked about why yang lu chan may have changed his form from chen to whatever- he mentioned that there possibly was some wudang influence. he mentioned that yang lu chan had changed the form 5 times before going to beijing. after beijing he learned of the "classics" from wu yeuh xiang two years later.

he mentioned that there is a good book called "Tai chi ancestors" to read that has good info.

[Buddy]

"i learned that form yang jwing ming...i guess thats not legit either."

Oh man. Yang's a White Crane guy. His taiji is.....he's a white crane guy.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Its not that hard to know a few styles and know how to seperate and combine the different energies and techniques. If we all did forms the same we would be no better than robots. Dr. Yang has a clear understanding of taiji and his style is very unique.

I didnt learn from Dr Yang but one of his Taiji Students who practices only Dr. Yang's and Yang Zhen Dou's Taiji cirriculum.

[Buddy]

"Its not that hard to know a few styles and know how to seperate and combine the different energies and techniques."

Nonsense. Taiji has a particular shenfa and it is different entirely from Baihe.

"If we all did forms the same we would be no better than robots. Dr. Yang has a clear understanding of taiji and his style is very unique."


I don't believe he does and his book (and my personal observance) seems to bear that out.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art.

In particular he says shaolin is a good one to study. I think the legendary sage Chang San Feng studied Shaolin before going to Wudang eh? The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?

[Buddy]

"I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art."

Well that's just complete horseshuit. Tell that to the Chen's face. Or to any top Yang guy, or Wu.


"In particular he says shaolin is a good one to study."

Well he's wrong. As I said, different body method entirely. No wonder you have "wushu" site.

"I think the legendary sage Chang San Feng studied Shaolin before going to Wudang eh?"

Fa fooks sake, have you read nothing about real history?

"The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?"

No. Yang Luchan went to Chen village. Jeez read a FAQ or two.

[Mo Ling]

"I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art."

oh, that is depressing...
here is an important educational point to consider when judging taijiquan practitioners and teachers; If someone claims tai chi is ineffective unless some other martial art is trained, that is a personal admission of their own utter lack of training, skill, understanding, and honesty regarding taijiquan.

If one cannot be effective in it that is a sign of one's own poor practice, or poor instruction. It is not a revelation about the true nature of taijiquan LOL!!!

In other words, if Yang jwing Ming said that, he is clearly telling you that HE does not understand or have any skill in taijiquan so he requires the services of another martial art to make it effective... great...

"The Yangs knew something about martial arts before learning Tai chi right?"

Wrong. Yang Lu Chan; 3 trips-18 years in Chen Family Creek, training Chen fist.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

some scholars believe even yang lu chan studied longfist before chen. he had already heard of chen famous taijiquan as a martial artist and decided to learn there to supplement his already technical knowledge.

did you know chen zhen lei is one of the top 10 wushu coaches in china! they even do wushu basic in chen village!! so stfu!

dr. yang never said any of that . dont put words in his or my mouth. the book was written by chen pan ling.

[froggy]

Cheng Zheng Lei is a top wushu coach in China.....

What wushu? do you mean changquan??? surely not....

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

wushu means "war arts" is is classified into several major categories. modern and traditional, internal and external, forms and combat.

chen zhen lei teaches chen taijiquan not longfist. however they practice wushu basics like stretching, stances, stretch kicks, jumps, ect. that are common in most modern wushu classes.

do you know why?

the reasoning is to develope a strong kung fu body that most people doing taiji dont have. it makes a better taiji player than one who does not do those things.

[shrub]

Ma,

Give it a rest.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i will have plenty of rest when I am dead.

anyways I was suprised myself when I heard that the leaders in chenjiaogou (chen village) were implementing wushu basics.

[Brad]

I forgot what I was going to write... :p


"I have been reading this book. there is a statement that i really liked in it something about tai chi being ineffective unless you have studied deeply some other type of martial art."

oh, that is depressing...

Anyway, figured I'd comment on this... While it is depressing, I'd say it's pretty much true for the majority of taiji quan schools out there, and has been for awhile. Out of all the people out there that have only studied taiji quan, how many actually learned it in a manner that they could use it as a martial art?

[shrub]

Ma,

The reason I asked you to give it a rest is that you are digging a bigger hole every time you post. Your total lack of understanding and knowledge is pathetic.

Basic training in flexibility, strength, stance, kicks, etc. is required in all Kungfu styles. It is the first thing they teach you in a good Tai Chi school . In fact the old traditional schools don't even teach you the forms until you are proficient in the fundamentals. That's the way it has been done for hundreds of years. It is not something new or borrowed from Wushu.

Go find a good teacher and stop wasting time making ridiculous assertions.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

i have great teachers... each is very high caliber for what they teach and know. its all there on my webpage. i dont mention the taiji grandmaster because they are seminar material and not local teachers. thank you very much.

[bamboo_ leaf]

One day while Lu Chan was working in a local grain store, a rude man came into the Tai He pharmacy next to where Lu Chan was working. The man wanted to buy some expensive herbs, but was only willing to pay a cheap price. The man shouted and waved
his fists.

The next thing Lu Chan saw was the man being thrown into the street without any effort by the pharmacy owner. Lu Chan felt this was quite odd for a person to be able to do such a feat without the use of force. The name of the pharmacy owner was Chen De Hu.

After a few days had passed, Lu Chan built up enough courage and went to Chen De Hu to ask to become his student. Chen was at first fairly cautious, but after seeing that Lu Chan was upright and honest, he told Lu Chan he was from the Chen Village (Chen
Jia Gou) in Wen Xian County of Henan Province. He said there were many people who studied Tai Chi Chuan in the village. He also explained that his teacher was the famous Tai Chi Chuan master, Chen Chang Xing.

Upon hearing this, Lu Chan was very excited
and immediately wanted Chen De Hu to introduce him to Chen Chang Xing.

http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc6881/history.html

a couple of interesting points that people seem to forget.

In some histories Yang knew or practiced some arts before learning the chen style.

Taiji would not be called taiji until after the propagation of the style through the yang family even the yang family did not call it taiji in the begining. I doubt that a chen family member would refer to their art as taiji at this time.

If we view that the man makes the art, Yang must have been highly skilled and understood many things that apparently some of the Chen members did not or did not practice at that time. Stories record that he was supposed to have beat some of the chen family members in a contest befor leaving.

later he would change what he learned to reflect his own ideas and accumplishments. weather it still retains the essense of the chen style or not depends on ones views and understandings of the chen style.

This is not to say the yang style or any style of taiji is better then the others, I view them as just variations on a theme with the chen style being a starting point depending on which histories one follows.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

that is exactly the history I had come across about yang lu chan.

shurb-

you said-The reason I asked you to give it a rest is that you are digging a bigger hole every time you post. Your total lack of understanding and knowledge is pathetic.


I am not digging anything but sticking to the discussion. i am humble to discussion and other people views, your personal attacks dont phase me and dont be jealous of my understanding and knowledge. like bob dylan said best- "dont criticize what you cant understand"

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
If we view that the man makes the art, Yang must have been highly skilled and understood many things that apparently some of the Chen members did not or did not practice at that time. Stories record that he was supposed to have beat some of the chen family members in a contest befor leaving.

That's conjecture, therefore useless in regards to understanding this stuff today.


later he would change what he learned to reflect his own ideas and accumplishments. weather it still retains the essense of the chen style or not depends on ones views and understandings of the chen style.
....and whether or not the essence of what YLC did has been accurately transmitted down to the many direct "lineages" to him, would potentially address this issue more accurately. Unfortunately, there seems to be about ten different versions of "the real" Old Yang floating around out there, all wildly different form one another. Smell a rat? I sure as hell do.

What's even worse about these types is that they don't train beyond "free" push hands. They do not spar either. They do not ever seem to put thier views or skills to any sort of tests. I seriously doubt that YLC trained as weakly as most of these "heirs" to his line. There is no such thing as moral victory if you are to call your Taiji a MARTIAL art.

[Buddy]

Ma writes:
"I am not digging anything but sticking to the discussion. i am humble to discussion and other people views,"

And saying STFU is just a happy-go-lucky response. Nothing wrong with basic martial art training but it ain't "internal" body method. That you didn't know the difference was pointed out to you, but you took offense. Your time, your dime. They're yours to waste.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Unfortunately, there seems to be about ten different versions of "the real" Old Yang floating around out there, all wildly different form one another. Smell a rat? I sure as hell do.

What's even worse about these types is that they don't train beyond "free" push hands. They do not spar either. They do not ever seem to put thier views or skills to any sort of tests. I seriously doubt that YLC trained as weakly as most of these "heirs" to his line. There is no such thing as moral victory if you are to call your Taiji a MARTIAL art.)


That’s for each of us to decide, weather something is a martial art or not depends on ones own views and rezones for training. This is just a little history draw your own conclusions don’t expect others to buy off on it, I don’t expect it.:cool:


(That's conjecture, therefore useless in regards to understanding this stuff today)

its interesting to read but does little in the way of understanding it. understanding is by direct experience, if your experience is not what you expect keep looking until you find it.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Thanks for passionately sticking to the discussion in a profound way to flood us with knowledge.

Buddy:
I apologize for the stfu. My internet ability is limited but my passion for the Taijiquan art isnt. It is like rowing up a river. I dont plan on flowing down stream right now. Its about always improving my ability and honesty. This might mean studying from many sources of teachers instead of just one.

zhai jian!

Matt

[Buddy]

Matt,
Fair enough. I'm a bagua guy so I'm not much help. I think I understand how the basic body method works that seems to be common to all 'internal' arts. Once you have a good felt-sense (meaning do you 'get' it in your body) of what that is, things will fall into place much quicker. It's easier (IMO) to get than some might say but you have to have someone able and, of course, willing to show you.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Perhaps Yang Lu Chan were able to best the chens because of the enormous size difference I read somewhere that he was about 300 pounds.

I also heard the story about him learning some form of tai chi that was older than the chen style which was directly from san zhan feng at Wu Dang temple.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I also heard the story about him learning some form of tai chi that was older than the chen style which was directly from san zhan feng at Wu Dang temple.)

a point I feel lost on many is the fact that taiji was not called as such until a much later time and it was in reference to the yang style. The idea of taiji is rooted in philosophy, as such styles that use this approach or display it in use can be said to be taiji or taiji like.

Differences in interpretation, are personal preferences unless one is looking for a historically correct pass down of a style I feel it matters little for an art that is eventually supposed to reach formlessness.