Is America the worst terrorist country in the world.

[Dragon Warrior]

Today at Stony Brook University they had some people speaking about why the war agaist afghanistan is wrong, and how we should change our policies, etc.

They said that millions of Iraq babies and children have starved to death because of us.

millions of people in south america have been victims of genocide, we gave the weapons to the leaders of the genocide.

Isreal kills thousand of palistians each year, and we support isreal with the weapons to do so.

millions of people around the globe are starving to death do to american cooporations taking advantage of their land.

thousands of yanomami tribe people in the south american rainforest have been killed and driven from their homes do to fast food corporations.

There were so many examples i cant even remember them all. I am going to do some research on the subject though.

Anyway they also said that bombing afghanistan is only killing more innocent people. A harsh winter is coming for afghanistan, and this war is only going to cause the suffering of millions of afganis.

Are we really the terrorist? If even 1/10 of the stuff i heard today is true, i think it is time for a revolution. Our gov't should change the way it does things, and the heads of the coorporations should be put in jail for crimes against humanity. How can i support a gov't that is causing the suffering of millions of people around the world.

And please no one call me unpatriotic or anything like that. I believe patriotism is to support your gov't when it is doing something right, and to change it when it is doing something wrong. Right now i dont know what we are really doing, so i will research it a little bit. But i really hope all the stuff i heard today isnt true. Also, i am in no way justifying the acts of sept 11, so dont label me like that either.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Ryu]

Yes. :D

(Sorry, the joke is probably in bad taste, but I can't even think about this kind of stuff anymore...it's been haunting me for many weeks.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[prana]

I think you are seeing from both sides of the coin now. As a whole, we are all suffering beings in search of happiness. How sad it is, we kill and hurt others in that process.... sometimes without knowing it.

You are brave with this one !

[jjj]

Uuh ok, so do they think we should do nothing and just try to get used to black Tuesdays? No thanks.

Complements of Mousel's:

What to do if you fall into a conversation with someone about the terrorist attacks who doesn't believe in retaliation:

1. Engage in conversation, and ask if military force is appropriate.

2. When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

3. Wait until he says something to the effect of - "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

4. When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face... HARD!

5. When he gets back up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would be awful and he should not cause more violence.

6. Wait until he agrees, and has pledged not to commit additional violence.

7. Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 7 until he understands that sometimes it is necessary to punch back.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Dragon Warrior]

i see your point but are we the ones "punching" the world in the face. Who are we punching back at. Killing hundreds and causing the suffering of millions of poor innocent people to find one man. Does that make much sense??? Is there no other way to do it?

Also, they did not say we should do nothing. They said we should force our gov't and the major corporations to change their policies around the world. They believe that will end terrorism, end world suffering, and trully result in "justice for all."

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[rogue]

DW, I went to SB, remember two things. One, never believe half the stuff you hear on that campus. Two the other half is crap too.

By the way, here's a reminder of why we're ruining the Talibans little bit o' paradise.

http://gallery.hd.org/places-and-sights/_more2001/_more09/US-NY-NYC-World-Trade-Center-attack-20010911-1303GMT-moment-of-collision-of-flight-UA175-Boeing-767-jet-with-south-tower-causing-huge-explosion-seen-from-side-of-entry-1-ANON.jpg

http://gallery.hd.org/places-and-sights/_more2001/_more09/US-NY-NYC-World-Trade-Center-attack-20010911-1303GMT-moment-of-collision-of-flight-UA175-Boeing-767-jet-with-south-tower-causing-huge-explosion-seen-from-side-of-entry-2-ANON.jpg

It takes less than four Fuching weeks for people to start forgetting.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[jjj]

>>Is there no other way to do it?<<

Here is an idea:

http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/jiujitsujedi/vwp?.dir=/jjj&.src=ph&.dnm=burn.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/jiujitsujedi/lst%3f%26.dir=/jjj%26.src=ph%26.view=t

Send more flags!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[bamboo_ leaf]

Nice, very direct.

When you fight, fight. When you make war, make war.

These people made war on us on 9/11.
When you feel sorry for the people there. Get a tape of the 2 towers and watch it a couple of times. See if you can see some of the people jumping out of the towers.

Then check your gut, and see what do you think about people who use these type of arguments.

As for the rest of the world, we as a country give more aid then any other country in the world. We can not control how or what the aid is used for by those poor governments who can’t feed their own people, but seem to have very large armies.

return to the wheel of life, not ready yet

bamboo leaf

[rogue]

Welcome back JJJ.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[Dragon Warrior]

actually i have not forgotten about sept 11. I think about it everyday, more than i would like to. I used to live in manhatten not to long ago. I know what a tragady that was and im not denying that. But what about the tragedies we have done to the world.

Also, i did a little research on the genocide issue. Two hundred thousands Mayans were murdered by the country of Guatemala. Not only were they killed but they were torn from their limbs, internal organs removed while they were still alive, etc. U.S.A. supported Guatamala with weapons and training in this genocide attempt.

WTF is up with that!!!!!!!!!!

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Lost_Disciple]

Nope
Just cuz we want peace real bad don't mean the rest of the world thinks the same way.
Notice how they only gave one side of all of those stories?
Notice how they encourage all of these "conspiracy theories"?

To the first part, I think a good 90% of American foreign policies and disasters are reactionary. If Iraq soldiers didn't kill little Kuwaiti babies, their innocent babies wouldn't have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. The Yanomami were genocized (is that a word?) by the Brazilian immigrants way before American fast food chains got there. The Palestinians were the first to declare war on the Israelis- a state made up of holocaust survivors- not 10 to 20 years after they entered the region. The Palestinians are also the first to bomb innocents once military stands down it's guard.

To the second part, there is what is called a "free press" in america. I think the only major restriction anybody has tried to put on the press in this country is not to give out schematics to our military weapons, and report detailed information on troop positions and attack plans. There is a reason for this; and that is even the best football team in the world would have a hard time winning if it's play book were open knowledge. We are the first country to air dirty laundary. Sometimes in order to interact with other governments, it helps when cutting deals not to publicize your "end of the bargain". I just got done watching a long peace on the Voice of America radio program the other night. This is a "free press" radio station that broadcasts a pretty unbiased view of the news in the middle east and south asia. The Taliban & over 60% of the Muslim world has admitted to religiously tuning into these broadcasts; as they know their own to be 100% propaganda.

It's sad that the world can't be a nice place to live; but to automatically assume that our government is evil and out to harm everybody is irresponsible. Remember, our country was strictly isolationist until World Wars popped up and we realized that we had to take some part in foreign affairs, being as strong and powerful as we are. The US tries to be a world leader and an example for the rest of the world. Our country was founded on good ideologies, and although we have problems frequently, we do our best to fix them.

Targeting civilians is NOT the policy of the US government NOR the US military. We are SO stand-up, honorable, and open with our actions in this aspect that we have often paid the price. Back when the missiles were launched at bin laden's camp years back, the reason they missed were a direct result of our policies and our humane nature. In order to maintain the element of suprise they were coordinating the missile attack, with another attack on another building- we waited for the civilians to leave that building before initiating both attacks and lost our window on the guy.

You CAN'T tell me that we are an evil country; when we suffer so much for doing what is right, and when EVERYONE ELSE OUT THERE makes a policy of doing so much worse. Accidents happen, we try to learn from them and grow. These peace people need to realize that not everyone shares their education, their standard of living, their intelligence, and ESPECIALLY not their ideologies.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[Dragon Warrior]

Is there anybody on this forum that knows of any other horrible things we have done to the world? I am getting interested in this.

No one here thinks that we have to change our policies around the globe?????

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[jjj]

Thx Rogue.

Dragon Warrior: Whatever.

Lots of Americans died so those losers up at Stony Brook University could sit around and spout off about what an evil country the US is. I'd like to see them go to Afghanistan and try to badmouth the Taliban. If they feel so strongly about it, maybe they should go over there and sign up in the Taliban army (or whats left of it LOL).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Dragon Warrior]

actually jujitsu, these people had nothing bad to say about the constitution, and the freedom of speech. They believe that our constitution is the greatest in the world. But they said the problem was with the fact that the gov't in america doesnt follow the constitution when it goes past it's own borders.

Please no one get mad over this topic. I am just sharing a differnt point of view, i dont agree with it, but i am just interested in the knowledge that is there. However i cannot deny all of it to be false.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[atsai]

"million" of iraqi children died because the US didn't remove saddam from power. Saddam is still supported in Iraq because they have a common enemy--US. Don't forget to blame the real bad guy--Saddam.

Israel is about the only US ally in mideast, the US objected when they were using American weapons for retaliation attacks. But the fact remains they're our only ally.

"million" of people starve because US coporation? He has to be more specific on this one. Local gov't want money in exchange of use of their land..., that's suppose to help their people--ask that to whatever government in question.

Attack is happening now and quickly because winter is coming. The US is the largest source of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan. The UN relief worker will have trouble continuing their operation in Afghan if not for the US. The US is condemned for dropping bombs because they kill people (duh)..., and the US is condemned for dropping MRE's because it's propaganda. The US will probably be condemned if we drop leaflet telling the people we're the great satan and the world's biggest terrorists because that'd be too hypocritical.

Be more specific about the change in foreign policy he suggests. There're two criticism of US policy--doing too much or too little. Arab-american or pro-west arabs likely criticis the US for not pushing for a democrocy in their countries. Hmm, the US did try that once in a little country called South Vietnam--not for oil, not for economical reason but for the preservation of democrocy and communist expansion. Odd, they didn't support that war they're suppose to spport because of draft. So are they criticising the US of doing too much? The biggest gun the US have in foregn policy is $$$$$$. Billions were given to governments of Egypt and Saudi Arabia, but the governments were too corrupted and too repressive. The governments became enemy to the people and the friend of their enemy--US, also became an enemy. But America is too big, too powerful and too untouchable..., we very much became THE enemy.

The biggest propaganda is that all governments US give aid to is just puppet government of the US. Here's one thing to get straight, it is THEIR government, THEIR country, THEIR people and THEIR land.

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Lost_Disciple]

ArtT
Good, you got some stuff I forgot. :)

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[rogue]

Weren't the Mayans killing people long before the Europeans got to the Americas?

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[jjj]

Like I said, they should go sign up for the Taliban Army. The TA hasn't been meeting their recruting quotas the last couple of weeks...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[atsai]

I'm not born here in the US, but it does seem true that many American have a short attention spend.

Richard Gere said we should love the terrorists because of it's just bad karma. So sympathetic are those people that they'll love the enemy to death. Peace is a very dedicated bussiness and it only take the action of one to screw up the system. Like the Chinese saying (and im translating literally here), the weak horse gets ridden.

NEVER FORGET!

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[rogue]

You're right about that Art. I have one friend sending me quotes from Pravda of all places, as proof that we're wrong to shut down the Talibans Peoples Paradise.

"Americans don't have the courage to come here," Mullah Mohammed Omar, leader of the Taliban who right about now is getting jiggy with his first of 70 virgins.

“Are you guys ready? Let’s roll.” Last words of Todd Beamer heard over his mobile line right before rushing a hijacker.

[Grappling-Insanity]

What should the U.S. do then?? ask them to stop?? pull out all support for Isreal?? what next?? I dont think you understand the situation, they declared a holy war on your county. I dont even live in the U.S. but I think those university kids are a bunch of whiney lil women. EVERY country has done something bad, and you guys arnt just bombing Afghanistan for the fun of it. Your doing it to get Bin Laden right?? if the Taliban would just hand him over it would be over.

[yenhoi]

The definition of terrorism changes depending on who you are.

In the United States there are 5 popular definitions. One for the FBI, one for the CIA, one for the State Department, One for the Pentagon, and one that is considered 'academic.'

Basically, the definitions are very close to one another, they all mention things like "political targets, unorthodox weapons (which are considered anything that is not otherwise known as conventional by the 'rules of civilized (not necessarily modern) warfare').

blah blah, of course these are all very broad and general definitions and assumptions.

There are also different definitions of 'state sponsored terrorism' - which some parallels can be found if someone wants to look close enough at enough history:

Pakistan sponsoring - nicely labeled "freedom fighters" in Kashmir, a province of India (currently) that is disputed and fought over.

United States - various - nicely labeled "special forces" around the world during and after the cold war. There are thousands of individual cases.

Relate that to any of the states on the US State Dept terrorist sponsoring states.

Economic and for the most part Diplomatic tools of state are not usually considered politically immoral when they cause deaths in another nation/state.

I’m not sure why, I guess that depends on current trends in how people in politics view themselves - such as realists, idealists, etc, etc.

I am a Realist.

In nation/state international politics --- strength and might, ultimately will dominate, and eventually seek to dominate * militarily, economically, and even socially (this could be viewed as a peoples pride really, which could equate to resolve).

Which means, if one country is superior in these ways, then it makes the rules?

The United States and the Soviet Union competed on a global level for 50 years - for this dominance.

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, terrorism as a means of warfare has exponentially grown across the world.

Terrorism in its earliest forms was really defined by elite specially trained and fanatical troops that killed, or 'assassinated' enemy leaders.

When attempting to drive the British out of then Palestine, the Israelis changed the name of terrorism from enemy leaders, to enemy institutions, symbols, and in general, political targets.

'Modern' Terrorism is a result of 'advanced' technology. Modern travel methods, the American and western media, western cultural expansion (known as Imperialism in the Middle East.)

In different places you can call terrorism by many different names by various definitions.

You could consider both the State of Israel, and the various organized Palestinian groups terrorists. You could call it culture warfare, where one side is superior and the other side is inferior in many aspects - the tools of state - and they result to what some would call guerilla warfare.

When American (and most western) academics define terrorism they are very careful to _try_ and separate it from guerilla warfare. But when it comes down to the specifics - that definition depends on each person political beliefs, political environment.

Yes, the United States, Europe, Russia, China, etc, use state tools other then military force that cause deaths in other states - you could say strict economic sanctions, diplomatic relationships, etc. Some states consider certain civilian tactics as domestic policy - such as the FBI, CIA - because they are fighting against people who break American laws. Some states consider certain military tactics as National Security. Some states are obviously and unarguably more powerful then others when it comes to the several tools of state.

The United States, its many Allies, Russia, and China to some extent have used at various times their various tools of state in the Middle East.

Some people don’t like that - and they don’t like it to the extent that they are willing to wage war - and some very few others hate it so much that they not only want to wage war but they are trying to start war between cultures / civilizations.

By chance, terrorism is a very effective and cheap weapon for such an enemy.

Since the United States is currently in most respects top dog, it gets to make the rules. I’m okay with some people not liking that. I realize the safety provided by progressive use of superior tools of state.

The United States public has been pretty blind and innocent for the past 60 years. Now we are in some respects awake.

We'd rather be safe and blind.

Now we must pound them. Hit them hard, then harder, then harder yet. Fight the people using the kinds of war we don’t like - show them if they want to fight, they should really do it our way, so we wont be so **** ****ed off.

But our way is the technological, overwhelming type - and so is terrorism, and state sponsored terrorism.

By 'them' I really do mean anyone who looks at US wrong.

How you view the US's current and past courses of action and various uses of the various tools of state - and acceptance of those uses, depends on your political outlook.

strike!

[Daniel Madar]

Okay,

First, I'd like to say that Israel is not our only ally in the middle east. What about Saudi and Egypt? Egypt receives the 2nd largest allocation of military aid from the US of all nations.

Second...

If you want to be absolutely technical about all "bad things", then you have to be honest.

Honest means looking at things in perspective.

America is killing millions of Iraqi babies. Let's look at this one first.

Why are those babies suffering? Because Iraq invaded Kuwait

Why did Iraq invade Kuwait?

Iraq invaded Kuwait because: (Multiple choice)
a) Kuwait was historically the 39th province of Iraq.
b) Iraq has no access to the sea, and as such their ability to effectively compete in the oil markets was limited.
c) They wanted to gain access to oil fields that were located on the border of Iraq and Kuwait.
d) All of the above.

The correct answer is D.

Now let's look further into these motivations.

Why did Iraq feel pressed to take such a radical step as invading Kuwait?

They were in serious economic straights as a result of their war with Iran.

Why did they have a war with Iran?
a) Because of their treatment of their own Shiite minority.
b) Because they share a river as a border, but the border goes straight down the middle, while the navigable channels do not, and they can not get access to the sea.
...

Now, if you look at all this, you will see that the reasons for Iraq invading and getting into various wars is tied to one thing. Borders. The river border with Iran, that also set a large number of shiites in Iraq. The removal of the 39th province to form Kuwait...

Now then. Who drew those borders?

England.

Why?

To create conflict in the region. To prevent a unified Arab world from threatening Europe.

Who's a terrorist?

That's just one example. It goes on from there. The point is, that when people whine about nations acting as terrorists, they are just making knee jerk hyperbolic Bhull****e comments to inflame the unwary.

Merciless is Mercy.

[Horatio Algiers]

Hmm. Actually this post may seem Ironic given my screen name but I would like to reccomend a book to you Dragon Warrior. Check out:
Hawaii: Islands under the influence.
By Noel J. kent

It's about ten years old and admittedly doesn't dig too deep into recent politics but it is however a rather eye opening account of how the Nation of Hawaii was bassically stolen economically and in terms of sovereignty from it's native inhabitants. You might find it interesting as this piece of American history isn't always covered in traditional curriculums. I don;t know in any case it's an interesting account of some of the nasty things us anglos have done in the names of mercantilism and "Free Market Enterprise," over the past couple hundred years.

[Serpent]

Dragon Warrior - You'll be interested in these.

http://www.tompaine.com/news/2001/10/11/index.html

http://www.goodthink.com/911/billthompson.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4271398,00.html

And JJJ - Your analogy regarding punching someone in the face only works if you assume that the US didn't throw the first punch. Which is naive in the extreme.

[Watchman]

>>>Weren't the Mayans killing people long before the Europeans got to the Americas?<<<

No. There was never any such thing as war, murder, slavery, cannibalism or human sacrifice before the Euros slogged inland from their ships. :rolleyes:

>>>it's an interesting account of some of the nasty things us anglos have done in the names of mercantilism and "Free Market Enterprise," over the past couple hundred years.<<<

At the same time, the Anglos don't hold a monopoly on mercantile exploitism.

Here's one example: who wants to guess which group of people ran the largest slave trading operation in the Americas immediately prior the Civil War?

White Southerners?

Nope! The northern Ute indian tribe. *gasp*

Who wants to guess who put a stop to the Ute's practice of raiding weaker tribes and selling their captives off to the Mexican government?

That's right - white settlers.

[Mr. Nemo]

Listen, Dragon Warrior: did you see that thing on a college campus? Was there a video they showed you? I've seen the same video if it was. Did they give any evidence to support their claims? I asked them for evidence and they dodged my questions.

Long story short, half a million people have not died in Iraq because of US policies. The connection between the US policies and the Iraqi deaths is so thin it really doesn't hold water to link the two.

Also, be careful what you call "america." American corporations' hiring practices and business tactics abroad are pretty disgusting, and I think they should be disciplined for them, but America the country didn't do these things.

Also, beware of campus radicals. A lot of them don't bother to hold their own political views accountable to logic. I tried to be a college liberal, but couldn't stomach the hypocrisy and lack of logic amongst a lot of campus liberal types. So many of them adopt radical politics just as an excuse to get self-righteous about something. I'm still a liberal, I've just been turned of to college radicals.

[Ryu]

I'm not getting close to this topic tonight..
Forgive me.

I will say that Richard Gere is not someone to really go to for "authentic Buddhist advice"
....... it's easy to say "love everyone"

It's hard to work through life with reason, rational thought, emotional understanding, and altruistic love... that's REAL Buddhism.

Sorry.. don't usually get fired up about stuff like that.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[wufupaul]

This article brings up some interesting points and analogies.

The American bully strikes back
A reader responds to Gary Kamiya's "War Without End"

- - - - - - - - - - - -


Oct. 10, 2001 | Read the story.

Somebody hates me enough to try to kill me. Is it reasonable for me to kill him and then try to alleviate the conditions that caused his hatred? From his l997 speech to this week's videotaped statement, Osama bin Laden has been laying out the case for his, and other Islamic militants', hostility to the U.S. very clearly. A few of the grievances are long-standing and have never been seriously dealt with by the U.S. government: the Israeli settlement policy, the continual bombing of Iraq, U.S. military presence in Saudi Arabia and the failure to support the creation of a Palestinian state. All of these grievances could be resolved with sufficient political will in Washington.


It was the U.S. refusal to respond to these grievances that eventually led to a series of terrorist actions against American targets: the bombings of embassies, military facilities and the USS Cole and the first attack on the World Trade Center. These actions finally succeeded in getting our attention on Sept. 11 when the magnitude of the attacks finally became great enough. In light of this, the U.S. military response -- waging an undeclared war against the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, however unenlightened that regime may seem by Western liberal standards, and using as the excuse the elimination of bin Laden's network and by implication a broader web of terrorist cells -- has to be exposed for what it is. It is the action of a government that adamantly refuses to acknowledge its complicity in the creation of the grievances in the first place and furthermore the actions of a government that sees itself as somehow morally justified in wiping out anybody who presumes to take its own grievances seriously enough to actively try to get our attention. The aggrieved are supposed to come, hat in hand, hoping to gain an audience. As Leroi Jones once said, "Mr. Charlie likes us to use 'nice methods' because he knows that nice methods never work." So we wipe the slate clean in Afghanistan and then "allow" the Afghan people to create a regime of their own choosing, namely one that the U.S.approves.

The only justification for such a policy is retribution. It is certainly not justice. Let's try an analogy. A husband beats his wife, denies her dignity. She rebels and hurts him. He kills her. Can we say that justice was done, that somehow she deserved it? Of course not. But on the international level, the biggest bully on the block finally gets a blow struck against him and, in return, destroys the nervy attacker. Then the bully announces that he is going to create the conditions for no further attacks, including establishing the types of regimes that will be allowable, the value systems that will be acceptable and so on. The arrogance of power simply continues in an outwardly more humane form.




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I'm sorry, but the argument is ethnocentric and self-indulgent in the extreme. There are at least two alternatives in the world, right now, to U.S. hegemony: the Chinese and the Arabic/Muslim. Allowing for a little confusion, we might include Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and North Korea with China. We could throw Cuba in as a footnote. The hegemonic mentality sees the Chinese as, in Gary Kamiya's word, "ominous" and the Arabic/Moslem as pre-modern or worse. How dare anybody not share the world view of the U.S. and the West. Certainly how dare anybody lift a hand actively to resist the U.S. vision of the world.

It would not be so bad if U.S. actions in the world were based primarily on the "liberal" values of the Bill of Rights -- judicial review, limited government and electoral politics. But these lofty ideals are almost always used as camouflage for oil interests and other corporate access to resources and labor markets, strategic national interests, support for regimes that further these interests and the destabilization of regimes that oppose them. Instances of U.S. idealism without the camouflage are few and far between, for example, perhaps, Haiti and Somalia.

So let's drop the cloak that justifies waging war against Afghanistan as somehow a justifiable cleansing that prepares the way for a more humane world. It is just another self-righteous blow struck by the bully, this time seeming more reasonable because it is retribution for the audacity shown by the bullied in daring to strike a blow himself. Murder committed to defeat murder. War to end war. All we end up with is more death. The eye-for-an-eye leaving everybody blind.

As to Kamiya's reference to "knee-jerk anti-American reaction of ossified leftists," I have to see such an attitude as the domestic equivalent of the "wipe the slate clean" policy in the world and the "end of ideology" philosophy; in other words dismiss any critics who don't accept the political consensus. I would assume that stronger methods would be rationalized to silence the critics if they (we) seriously threatened the prevailing hegemony, perhaps jail and even death, presumably as traitors to the U.S. world view. It is deeply troubling to read Kamiya's rationalization for another U.S. military attack on a Third World country because it does not come from the usual super-patriot fringe but from within the heart of the supposedly liberal- critical tradition in U.S. journalism.

There would be no anti-Americanism, whether "knee-jerk" or otherwise, if U.S. foreign policy were conducted on the basis of deep respect for the cultures and values that prevail in other parts of the world and a genuine "humility" in the implementation of its economic interests. But it is not humility for the U.S. to wait three weeks to retaliate, largely because it took that long to construct enough acceptance, some of it grudging, by strategically important other countries and to delineate the optimum targets. And it is not a "kinder, gentler America" that rounds up enough support worldwide to avoid condemnation for another essentially unilateral U.S. military action.

It is truly wishful thinking to hope that U.S. policymakers have learned a profound lesson from recent events and are now prepared to abandon U.S. unilateralism and act with restraint and compassion in the world. Certainly we will drop food all over the parts of Afghanistan that our supposed friends in the Northern Alliance control, as part of the strategy of winning the hearts and minds of the people. But let's not kid ourselves. If we set up the Northern Alliance as "our man" in Afghanistan and it turns against us and doesn't allow the U.S. to exercise significant control over the nation's destiny, it will be the next target for the U.S. military. The convenient thing about the Soviet Union and the Cold War was that it made U.S. economic imperialism and huge military budgets seem to be a justifiable self-defense against foreign aggression. Terrorism, with "nation-building" waiting in the wings, are the new justifications. For U.S. policymakers, the Sept. 11 disaster was actually quite conveniently timed. The U.S. government can now engage in huge military buildups and military adventures, even restrict civil liberties, relatively unopposed at home. I wouldn't be surprised if Washington.now creates some excuse to invade Cuba again.

Bin Laden has pulled it off. He has transformed even liberal opinion makers into apologists for the U.S. global strategy and hence further widened the gulf between the U.S. and the Islamic part of the Third World. Where the "ominous" Chinese come down remains to be seen, but they are not likely to be as easily bullied as some of our dubious friends. Those of us who hope for a truly pluralistic globe can only hope that China holds out and that the rest of the Islamic world is not completely cowed.

The scholar Robert Neville, in his book "Boston Confucianism," wrote, "No intellectual is only a Westerner or only a Confucian except through culpable ignorance." I think we have to modify the quote slightly to include, at least, Islamist. It is time now for genuine world citizenship, not just more subtle rationalizations for U.S. dominance.

-- David Alford


salon.com

In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about
life. IT GOES ON.

[atsai]

The politically correct thing is that terrorists are giving Islam a bad name and they "defame" a "great religion". Probably someone can denounce Gere for giving Buddhism a bad name. I think everyone here know that some 2000 years ago the monks of Shoalin realize they have to protect themself physically to practice their philosophy of peace. We wouldn't consider Gere having any authority on Buddhism... :)

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Ryu]

Thanks,

Well I wouldn't say he's giving it a "bad name".
It's just that no matter what any religion says, the world will always be a very hard place to live in sometimes. I sometimes get angry (though I shouldn't let it get to me too much) at people who just say "love em all" or "kill em all"
........ Life takes experience, decision, right understanding, right judgments, and the ability to see situations for the individual things they are, ya know? :)

I guess I'm tired tonight.
Gonna get some training in.

Ryu

http://www.jkdu.co.za/pics/logos/jkduhpma1.gif


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Chang Style Novice]

Is America the worst terrorist nation in the world? No.

Now for the harder questions, and my answers

Has the American government, under many administrations committed acts of terrorism that are abhorrent and illegal even by our own standards? Yes.

Does America's position as a economc and military superpower mean that it must be held to a higher standard? Yes.

Does that higher standard require America place her citizens and soldiers at a (seemingly) higher risk? Probably, but let's keep in mind that the risk is only higher due to the incredible security that we are used to. Soldiers and citizens of many other countries are used to greater real risks than the supposedly higher risk we feel right now.

Does the previously mentioned higher standard hamstring America in her war on terrorism? I hope not, but I recognize the possibility that this may be so. However, as others on the board are fond of quoting "Those who would trade liberty for safety will find themselves without both."

Can this war be won without sacrificing America's highest ideals? I think so; America's ideals are a source of great strength.

Setting aside the present crisis, does the past misbehaviour of American governments justify terrorism against America? No, absolutely not.

Does the present crisis require unquestioning loyalty from America's citizens if we are to survive? No, absolutely not. We cannot defend freedom if we sacrifice it for the sake of convenience.

Setting aside the present crises, does the past misbehaviour of American governments justify suspicion of the current American governments methods and motives? Yes, absolutely. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom. Consider this (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/sep2001/nyt-s25.shtml), and this (http://www.tompaine.com/news/2001/10/11/index.html).

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Stumblefist]

JJJ Really like the "punch in te face stuff"
Taht's seeing the big picture.
Yeah, Americans are pretty horrible, I saw a guy kick his dog once. Anybody else got any horror stories?

"This is the end
My only friend, the end
It hurts to set you free
But you'll never follow me"

[Chang Style Novice]

Heh, I didn't realize that tompaine.com article had already been linked. Nice linking, serpent. I liked the other ones, too.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Xebsball]

About the Yanomamis (wich are some of the original Brazilians), lots of them were killed or had their land taken from them by imigrants from Europe. At least thats the way it happened in Brazil, i dont know if the Yanomami tribe lives in other south american countries where the story might have been different.
The people from native tribes still fight today to get their piece of the land back and stuff, but our governament never really solves the problem, that sucks.

About the US influence, they supported Brazil to attack Paraguai. At the time Paraguai was a wealty country, but with the war they got a lot of social economical problems, so now they are in a situation just as bad as ours or even worse.

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[Lost_Disciple]

Chang
proud to know you're a fellow texan. :D

wufupaul
I disagree with both of those statements on so many levels it would take hours upon hours and pages upon pages to rebut. It all boils down into the two things i mentioned-

1. Most American policy is reactionary.
We are held to a higher standard than the rest of the world and the government always has a purpose behind what it does. Economics are never really the purpose for actions, but it's always an incentive. If it were all purely economics, we'd be doing a lot more, a lot worse.

2. We air out our dirty laundary
Our press is free to expose and report on all of the government's scandals. So if there are things out there that have gone unreported, blame the press for not digging deep enough, but the idea that the US Gov't would silence any press agency is ludicrous. Beyond that, our faults are well known, while other countries don't publish their's.

Have there been mistakes in the past? Oh he|| yeah. But like ChangStyleNovice said, they aren't justification for attacks on civilians, and we must always be vigilant and suspect of our government's motives.

I'm through with responding to these political threads. Not out of anger, but just futility and frustration from thinking about & discussing these issues.

Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.

[soy]

If only we listened to buddha.

[Xebsball]

Yeah...

Buddha would work and probably Jesus too.
There was saying that was something like "love your enemies and... something" and the other one "dont do to others what you dont want to be done to you" (see i remember this one).

-------------------------
"You will never need to feel weak, helpless, indecisive, not fascinating or ashamed of your genital dimensions. GOOD-BYE Humiliation. Bullies, Karate Experts, Boxing Champions, traffic wardens will melt to pulp as you master every situation."
Master Deltoo
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Stadium/2477/

[tnwingtsun]

C:WINDOWSDesktopgunship_graphic.gif

[David]

That punch in the face stuff from Mousel's was a crap anal-ogy. Missed the point entirely. The puncher was a thug trying to start a fight. Terrorists want things to change which are beyond the will of corporations and politics to deliver.

When was the last time it was a great idea to bomb a country to arrest one man? And then to take the **** with the humanitarian crap. I've never heard such bullsh!t insincere two-facedness.

Why can't US spec-ops get Bin Laden and perhaps some evidence that'd stand up in court?

The powers of Kung Fu never fail!
-- Hong Kong Phooey

[brassmonkey]

"Terrorists want things to change which are beyond the will of corporations and politics to deliver. When was the last time it was a great idea to bomb a country to arrest one man? And then to take the **** with the humanitarian crap. I've never heard such bullsh!t insincere two-facedness."

The US isnt bombing Afghanistan to get 1 man, were doing it to punish the Taliban which are an accomplice to all Al Qaeda terrorist acts by allowing them to train and stay in theyre country.

"Why can't US spec-ops get Bin Laden and perhaps some evidence that'd stand up in court?"

Spec Ops in a hostile foreign nation trying to arrest Bin Laden isn't as easy as you make it sound. There's been ample evidence in the past linking Bin Laden to attacks on our embassies to an attack on the USS Cole and the first World Trade Center bombing and I take our leaders word when he says we have evidence linking him to the current situation and if we dont we certainly have enough evidence on the past events to crucify him. Now this is a war not a court case, there is no need to take him to a legal court. There is a thing called "collective consciousness" of a nation that allows or doesnt allow things to happen, you live and die by the collective. So the innocent civilians who die are not as innocent collectively. David you remind me of all the protestors in Vietnam that caused such indecisiveness in the actual war as to lose much American blood.

[scotty1]

I qoute: the idea that the US Gov't would silence any press agency is ludicrous. Beyond that, our faults are well known, while other countries don't publish their's.
Boll0cks!!! I you think that idea is naive, then, somewhat ironically, you are the naive one! The idea that a press agency would publish something that the goverment (ANY government) believed was against national security (however tenuous the link) is quite simply, ridiculous. Every type of media is propaganda, plain and simple, to a lesser or greater extent.IT IS ALL MANIPULATED IMAGES AND WORDS. Every country publishes their more acceptable faults, but there is a lot we don't know about every government in the world. EVERY goverment in the world does VERY BAD THINGS. (Yes JJJ and Lost Disciple, EVEN YOURS.) Some we know about, some we don't. This war is not as simple as some people seem to think. It is a chicken and egg story as far as retribution goes. Having said that, NOTHING can justify an attack on 6,000 civilians. Bin Laden is an evil criminal, pure and simple. But thats not the end of the argument.
And the American government should be responsible for the actions of an American multinational company. The company is made up of American citizens, so therefore the responsibility for these peoples actions lie with their respective governments. The same is true for British, German, French etc. Corporate politics and politics are now one and the same thing. Multinationals are a countries representatives overseas, they have a responsibilty to conduct themselves properly. And whoever tried to say (if I understood correctly) that the American involvement in Vietnam was purely altruistic, I think a little more research on your part is in order. But lets not get into that here.
Words from John pilger (check out his website):
Richard Falk, professor of international relations at Princeton, put it this way: "Western foreign policy is presented almost exclusively through a self-righteous, one-way legal/moral screen (with) positive images of Western values and innocence portrayed as threatened, validating a campaign of unrestricted political violence."

That Tony Blair, whose government sells lethal weapons to Israel and has sprayed Iraq and Yugoslavia with cluster bombs and depleted uranium and was the greatest arms supplier to the genocidists in Indonesia, can be taken seriously when he now speaks about the "shame" of the "new evil of mass terrorism" says much about the censorship of our collective sense of how the world is managed.

One of Blair's favourite words - "fatuous" - comes to mind. Alas, it is no comfort to the families of thousands of ordinary Americans who have died so terribly that the perpetrators of their suffering may be the product of Western policies. Did the American (and British) establishment believe that it could bankroll and manipulate events in the Middle East without cost to itself, or rather its own innocent people?

Ultimateley though, I think the lefties are just as guilty of using propaganda as the righties. And therefore, I don't know who to believe, and shake my head in despair. :(

[brassmonkey]

My personal pet peeve is when I hear "Jihad(Holy War.) If a Holy war truly happened it would be both sides praying for love and happiness on the other side.

[atsai]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, they did not say we should do nothing. They said we should force our gov't and the major corporations to change their policies around the world. They believe that will end terrorism, end world suffering, and trully result in "justice for all."[/quote]
Sounds really nice. So there should be an immediate change in US foreign policy to please these people so they wouldn't hijack our plane again and ram it into buildings?

okay, I'll use the Department of Defense' definition of terrorism: "the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

The terrorists believe violence is the only language the US understands, we shall expect likewise for them. Inaction of military force in the past had been interpretated as a sign of weakness by the enemies of the United States. During Vietnam, the numerous halt of bombings for or during negotiation as a gesture of goodwill (along w/ other reasons) only strengthen the determination of the North. Even during Linebacker II (aka The 11-day war or Christmas bombing), there was a one day stand down--which only allowed Hanoi to restock SAM missiles and boost their moral. After the bombing of the Marine base in Lebanon during the 80's, the US only shelled hills near Beirut from battleship and the Marine pulled out four months later. In both war the enemy achieved their objective.

These "folks", as Pres. Bush called them, not just want to show the world the magnetude of their hatred, they have their agenda too--be it religious, ideological, political or economical. Try not to think of American as invincible and untouchable--there're veneralbilities and limits to our capabilities. The lesson in Vietnam and war w/ terrorism is that we cannot afford to underestimate our enemies. For bin laden, at least as far as we know, it's the withdrawl of US troops for what considers Muslim holy land(and the "infidels" in the government who supported them). Lets say the US want to negotiate for peace w/ whoever claim responsibility for the attack. Unless there's a genuine and present threat of force against them, they'll be no leverage for the US and this is called appeasement--the US appease the terrorists for peace. It will only teach people out there, if you want the America to do something, committ a crime horrible enough and it'll make America to negotiation table and do what you want. Not only do the US must send the a strong message that this nation does not react well to violence, we also need to practice active self-defense--rid of them before they rid of us. Surely the bombing is just one phase of the war. The war likely will be 99% intelligence (boredom) and 1% action. There'll be a change in US foreign policy alright.

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="1"><TR><TD><form><INPUT TYPE="button" VALUE=" Art Tsai " onClick="parent.location='http://people.we.mediaone.net/arttsai/home.html'"></TD></TR></table></form><HR Width="97%">"You fight like you train." --Motto, USN Fighter Weapon School (TOPGUN)

[Dragon Warrior]

if the U.S. hasnt been committing unjust acts to the rest of the world, then why is it a fact that most of the people of the world hate the U.S. This includes Europeans, Asians, Middle eastern people, Africans, and South Americans. I am not saying all the people of these countries, but a lot of them do Hate us.

Why is this true, it has nothing to do with Islam, so dont say anythign like that.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Ford Prefect]

LOL@Dragon Warrior!

[jjj]

Maybe they are just jealous?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[scotty1]

Are you serious? I'm not talking bad about Americans, but Dragon Warrior asked a serious question, and seeing as for most of this thread you and DW have been on opposite sides of the fence, don't you think you can give a better answer than that?

[Dragon Warrior]

I HIGHLY DOUBT THAT JUJITSU

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[ewallace]

Iraq's problems were brought upon them by their leader. Had they not INVADED another country, they would not be having their current problems. Same for the Afghan people. Like DW said, it is the reponsiblitly of the people to correct their government when it is doing wrong. The afghan's knowingly let terrorists live and train in their country. They (Taliban) were given a choice. They chose not to cooperate. They knew what the consequences would be not to cooperate. I do not care how brutal or atrocious(sp?) an act has been done to a person or people. Nothing justifies an act such as Sep 11...Nothing. Yes innocent people are being vicitimized in Afghanastan, but we are "trying" to go after military targets. Not buildings where we know that nothing but innocent people are residing at. They (Iraq and Afghanastan) have brought this upon themselves. Diplomacy only works with diplomatic people. Terrorsits do not recognize dimplomacy. They are set in their deadly ways so I see that there is one way to deal with them. And no it is not going to be "Please Mr. Terrorist, don't bomb our buildings and highjack planes." Helllz no. Eliminate them so there is no question if they can do any more harm.

Victory goes to he who makes the next-to-last mistake.

[Dragon Warrior]

actually we are not on opposite sides of the fence. I dont have a an opinion right now, i am just asking some questions.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[LEGEND]

DW...take some political science classes...and history classes to find out your answer! Should we change out policies??? Well let's be frank...back in the day before WW1...we were really an isolation country...similar to the JAPANESE. After WW1 we were once again isolated...we refused to be members of the LEAGUE OF NATION...we wanted to MIND OUR OWN business...then WW2 happen and millions and millions of people died...why??? No one wanted to stop HITLER...no one really cared...wasn't our business till the JAPANESE attack on PEARL HARBOR. That was BIGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG LEASON for us and for some odd reason peeps especially younger idealistic people forget this or don't want to bring this up! At that point many countries look up to us and wanted us to lead the way. Why??? Cause we were an industrial and military SUPERPOWER. Then the SOVIET UNION...YIKEs...there ideology was totally against ours. That was considered a threat. The Soviet was known to arm other govs. to force REVOLUTION...we in turn arm the rebels or existing gov...and let them fight it out( CHINA, SOUTH AMERICA, PHILLIPINEs etc... ). When all said and done very few communist nation left...we are the only true SUPERPOWER! Now our policy toward other nation...many upon many EUROPEAN nation look up to us...WHY??? Lessons of WW2. And they are like us...industrial and military power...capitalistic country. South America is like us too...Africa is too backward and most are basketcase countries...fighting each other for thousand of years and will continue to do so...they may never evolve or have stability. Russia is our allies and being young to democracy are experiencing problems...they're just not use to the NEW WAY. ASIA is pretty stable...although CHINA and N. KOREA can be a pain in the ass. No true threat and believe me...we have a plan devised a longggggggggggggg time ago if they become one! Now the MIDDLE EAST countries...these countries are the most trouble some...they remind me of the CRIPs and BLOODs of LA...backstabbing...one group more extreme than another...too be honest...all lying SOBs. They don't like us backing up ISRAEL...oh well. Our policy is to maintain stability there...why??? Cause OIL. Also the fear that those countries will kill each other. They have been fighting for centuries...most of it over RELIGION. My religion is better than yours etc. We are doing it for ALLAH or whoever!!! So they call upon HOLY WARs etc...they are looked upon by the WEST and EAST( I'm asian ) as IDEOLOGICAL IDIOTs! They will fight for thousands and thousands of years from now also! No stability whatsover cause there religious belief doesn't seem to allow individual thought! Our policy is try to keep those guys calm and hopefully nothing spills over to the WEST or EAST. Some of them hate us...hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...some of them say we're too nosy...lol...well when IRAQ invaded Kuwait and seem bent on taking the SAUDIs...guess who the middle east called...USA! BIN LADEN himself based on his PROFILE hate the WEST in general...why??? Cause we represent everything he's against!!! He doesn't want our women running free...he's a very very strict MUSLIM. He's the equivalent of the KKK or BLACK PANTHER or RELIGIOUS FANATIC group. Remember dood...many of these countries are run by one man that has a PERSONAL PROBLEM with us...SADDAM was at one point our ally till we said GIVE BACK KUWAIT...then we kicked his ass way back to IRAQ.

Now terrorism has been around for YEARs...DECADEs...now we have these guys on campus crying about it! LOL. Where were they???? Terrorism is the act of acting any targets including civilians to enact a change of policy or to disrupt the internal workings of the gov and lifestyle. It has alwayz been and alwayz WILL BE the policy of the WEST to not allow TERRORISM to change any policy. There are more peaceful wayz for example MARTIN LUTHER KING and GHANDI. There is NO EXCUSE for terrorism. Now for those guys on campus...I truly believe if they went to a bad neighborhood by accident and there family was raped and killed...they'll blame it on the gov. and not the perpuators...it's BLAME IT ON THE GOV. GROUPs like these that was calling our soldiers babykillers in vietnam. They deserve little or no respect in my opinion.

I do think our policy should change...too a more harder stance...YOU FUK WITH US...YOU DIE!!! Do u know many nations think we're PUSSIES??? Unwilling to DIE...unwilling to stomach bloodshed??? As soon as u're preceive as weak in the political world...u're doomed. There is a reason why our leaders are there. They are more educated and are not as SENSITIVE. WEAKNESS in the POLITICAL WORLD will get your ass kicked! And this is why those protestors cannot reach that level of LOGIC.

A

[ewallace]

Amen Legend

Victory goes to he who makes the next-to-last mistake.

[Dragon Warrior]

dude, the "arabic" peoples are not the only people in the world that hate our gov't. Billions across the globe do, and my question is
WHY??

And it's wierd how people responded to my genocide example by saying the mayans were bla bla bla hundreds of years ago. What the hell does that have to do with what Guatemala did to them with the support of the united states in modern times? Do you agree with the united states support of gautemala's genocide attempts.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[jjj]

Lets try cutting off all the foreign aid we send and see how much they hate us then...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[LEGEND]

DW...before u state the fact...name these BILLIONs...like be specific??? If u can't then u doing nothing but being a hypocrite and spouting these protestors rethoric.

A

[Dragon Warrior]

almost every country in the world has negative feeling toward the united states, including many countries in europe. that is just known, there is no need to name them.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[LEGEND]

DW...for your question regarding the MAYANs...what country has not FAULTER giving another country arms or money and it turns into a perversion??? The US had nothing to gain with the murdering or genocide of millions of mayans...u take responsibility for YOUR own action...not OTHERs. If you sold me a gun...and I used that gun to kill innocent peeps in a massacre...do u blame yourself??? Hell No! But I'm sure these protestors would...like I said...what is the agenda of the gov. There main agenda is OUR BENEFIT...not others! OUR BENEFIT.

A

[LEGEND]

You're making a general statement that I contest as BS and childesh. I'll make one too...WHY THEY HATE US??? My answer...DON'T PLAYER HATE!

A

[KC Elbows]

Does anyone think that if the Iraqi or Afghani governments actually prosperred, that the people of those countries would see any "trickle-down" of that? I mean, the region is well known for a tiny tiny handful having everything monetarily, and the people get squat. I've yet to see the evidence that the US killed millions of Iraqi babies. If I recall right, a lot of the aid sent to Iraq was being misappropriated by the Iraqi government, and never reached the people who need it. Millions of iraqi babies may have died, but was it the US, or did Iraqi policy kill them?

I'm not saying that the US hasn't done some shady stuff, I'm just saying that some of these situations were created internally, and we just held the unenviable position of trying to help.

Last point-just because we support someone now doesn't mean we are responsible should they become a tyrant. If a country is so weak that another country is able to put leaders in place, then that country is going to see some strife whether or not other countries play games in their borders. Hopefully, the US has enough of this stuff down now, so that we only get shady when it is the necessary course of action to do so, but again, I'm babbling.

[LEGEND]

Actually howabout this one...why do people hate the LAKERs??? Cause there on top! In 1700's 1800's people hated the ENGLISH...why...cause they were on top...seem to be imposing their rule or law on others. It is unfortunately human nature to envy the best. We may seem imposing and intimidating( we have the most powerful military and industrial power on earth ). Any countries political and military generals would look in terror when we displayed our new weapons and tactics in the CNN GULF WAR...seeing a bomb go into windows etc...seeing how we lost 1000??? and the enemy maybe 100000??? WOW.

A

[Dragon Warrior]

from what i've read, we supplied them with weopons and training, while we had the knowledge of what they were doing to those innocent people.

If you dont believe that most of the world has negative feelings toward the united states, just do a little research on it. You will see that , various countries in europe, asia, south american and africa have extremely negative feelings toward the united states. And i doubt it has to do with jelousy, or religion. Does anybody have a different reason for this?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Dragon Warrior]

the world hated england becuase of english imperialism, and globalization. Not because they were on top. The english colonization of india and africa is one of the main reasons for so much conflict and starvation in those countries today.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[Chang Style Novice]

Legend -

Comparing America to the LA Lakers is spurious. Even those with the greatest animosity toward the Lakers due to their current success don't try to kill them. This isn't true hate, merely competitiveness. People do hate the United States, and is due only in part to our position of power. The other part of that equation is that they believe we are abusing them with our power. I think it's possible that they are right about that, as has been pointed out many times on this thread, the US government has been far from guiltless in the past century or so.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[LEGEND]

Exactly...didn't want to state it out...but there u go...now u're starting to understand...why do u think does countries hate us now??? We are in a way...hmmmmmmm...imperalistic no??? LOL.

A

[LEGEND]

You see people the first thing u learn in political science is that no matter what u do...it may not turn out for the BEST! When u stay in ISOLATION...mind your own business etc...things can blow up( ex: WW1 and WW2 )...when u attempt to advise, imperalize, finance or conquor another entity no matter what the reason...u will get negative feedback...it's a NO WIN situation...however...u have to look at the results...and HOPE that over time...that the conclusion will be to YOUR ADVANTAGE. That is the way the world works. IDEALISM is NICE...I use to be IDEALISTIC but these are the people that get SHOT first LOL. You have to be REALISTIC...

A

[Dragon Warrior]

http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

[KC Elbows]

Yes, but the countries we're at odds with most would do EXACTLY THE SAME AND WORSE to us if our positions were reversed. I'm sorry, but we aren't beating on saints here. These are tyrants who impose virtual slavery on women and consider anyone unlike themselves infidels. If being the romans and stepping on some toes is the only way to keep them from real political power, then hail caesar.