Observation

[Fu-Pow]

2 most important body mechanics in Taiji-

1) Chest (ie shoulder to shoulder) remains concave (not too much however)

2) Sacrum points down and lower back is slightly "pulled."

If you can maintain these two then you are half way there.

All the movements happen "around' these two requirements.

I think other...ie "external" MA's deviate from these requirement because they are seeking to extend their reach.

[SPJ]

Good post.

The idea is still to be flexible. Your Qi concentrates on Dan Tien.

You still maintain a center line along your spine in a natural or flexible stance.

In general, your shoulder is Sung/Song or loose.

Your wrist/hand and your feet/steps lead and move into the position. Shi Jin (storing) and contracting.

When you Fa Jin (release), it is a sudden circular movement from the waist along your centralized spine.

At the end point, it is a sudden jerking (sprung out; uncoiling) of a whole body.

If your chest is not arched a bit, your hand, arm, and chest are difficult to "expand".

If your chest is out to the front and spine is straight, that is too rigid and less expansible Jin and less flexibility for your whole upper body structure.

This is only a generalization.

:)

[Shooter]

there's only one;

~suspended from the top of your head~

everything else falls into place if you just hang

[brody]

Fu-Pow,

Great observation. To add to that....a person should also be mindful of the 3 external harmonies: Hand and Foot move together, Shoulder and Waist move together, and Elbow and Knee move together.

[yangchengfu04]

How do you know when you're suspending from your head? Is the head straight and the shoulders relaxed to get the proper "suspension" while you do form? Or is it even more than that?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by brody
Fu-Pow,

Great observation. To add to that....a person should also be mindful of the 3 external harmonies: Hand and Foot move together, Shoulder and Waist move together, and Elbow and Knee move together.

IMHO, the shoulder and hip staying aligned is super important to IMA's (I don't really understand the other two.) If you misalign the shoulder and the hip, even for a second (like in a whipping type motion) then your power is "broken" and you are doing external.


I think if I made an essential list for IMA's it would go like this:

1) Head suspended, saccrum slightly tucked
2) Chest stays contained (ie slightly, not overtly concave)
3) Hips and shoulders stays aligned (always)

These are like the basic requirements to get your torso involved in a "expansive/compressive" type way as opposed to a twisting type of way (which temporarily misaligns the hips and shoulders, and opens the chest unevenly to one side.)

For what I like to call "crash and bash" type MA's this stuff isn't as important. When you get into "stick and follow" type martial arts it becomes hugely important.

On a side note:

Something struck me the other night. Would you say that that Bagua uses circular stepping, Xing Yi uses linear stepping and Taiji uses square stepping?

Is that the crucial difference that separates the 3?

[SPJ]

Good post.

Again I am generalizing again, There are exceptions.

The requirements for Jin release for the 3 are from the whole body.

Ba Gua may move sidewise to defend with Zhuan (penetrating) palm or rotating your forearm to contact (Gun Zhang).

Ba Gua may attack by moving forward and close to the side of the opponent, if the door is open, you may move to the front, too. You have to be close enough to start pushing and pulling, tripping and throwing.

Xing Yi is always in your face. Your fists and your steps are right in the face of the opponent. The opponent has nowhere to go but retreat to the side or back. One fist attack is coupled with one step forward. Your whole body accelerates. You are throwing a whole body force to be delivered via the fist. A whole body punch. Not just waist turning and no moving feet type of fist. That is why your posture is wrong, your Xing Yi fist is not right.

Tai Ji is still circularly moving steps into 4 fronts (Zhen) or 4 corners (Yu).

These steps are why you are at advantage and in balance. The opponent is not. This is the main Jin or Jin from walking (Zhou Jin). Once you are in position, the a turn of your waist, it is done.

Again this is only a generalization.


:)

[SPJ]

The idea of hanging and a little arched back and sacrum lower.

Imagine you hold a ball at the shoulder level, your back has to arch a little. So you form an arc of a circle or a ball.

The sacrum low is to close to the 2 tucked in knees. Imagine you hold a ball between your knees and sacrum. Once again your form an arc of a circle or a ball.

This way, your upper body and lower body is ready to respond and move to different directions.

The idea of hanging. Imagine your whole body and the limbs form a ball. Your head is the top part of the ball.

This way you may respond like a ball.

You are ready to roll to the 4 Zhen or 4 Yu.

In your new position, you are ready to release the Jin.

Again, this is a generalization.

:)

[Shooter]

IMHO, the shoulder and hip staying aligned is super important to IMA's (I don't really understand the other two.) If you misalign the shoulder and the hip, even for a second (like in a whipping type motion) then your power is "broken" and you are doing external

oh my :rolleyes:

[SPJ]

The ideas of contracting/shrinking and expanding are not unique to the 3.

But it is SUPER important for the 3.

1) Tai Ji is unique that you may neutralize and counterattack with the same hand at almost the same time. (Hua Fa)

Wai Jia Quan may be one hand to block, the other hand to attack. Or the same hand block first and then attack (1-2 steps) or 1-2-3.

Tai Ji Chan Si is why.

Tai Ji evolved from Long boxing.

2) Neutralization and hitting (punch and kick, Da and Ti) are similar to Wai Jia Quan. (Hua Da)

3) Tai Ji Qin Na is unique because of the fact that Chan Si is coupled.

That is why Shooter observed Tai Ji steps similar to wrestling or boxing.

Fu Pow wondered what is the difference between the 3 and Wai Jia Quan.

Tai Ji has all these structures plus Chan Si and structures needed for Chan Si.


:)

[Subitai]

I like it all,

If I may add, most importantly for me, is how the feet touch the ground. I know it sounds cliche, useage of "stance" and it's transitions are paramount or else all the other things don't work. No offense to anyone.

There is one constant, gravity and how we relate to the ground. Not just the energy but the connection.

The feet...how far, how narrow and the movement through transitions is often glanced over or not mastered 1st. Thing is, it's different for different body types. Somepeople teach it to students in only one mold, but it will not work like that.

The energy (well put by you guys already) must travel to the extremeties and beyond to advance in skill.

I guess my version would be proper stance and 5 bows of the body...1st.

ease on,
"O"

[racerexx]

greetings,
When I was learning my form we had 10 principles we applied throughout the form..Thier order is irrelevent as they are all significant.
1.) Circularity
2.) Continuity
3.) Even Height
4.) Shoulder/Hip Alignment
5.) Hand/Foot Coordinate
6.) Movement from ground up
7.) Toe/Heel aAlignment
8.) Eyes follow intent
9.) Attitude
10.) Single Weightedness


They are pretty good principles for me and I find that if I follow them my mechanics work out pretty well, smooth transitions, good foot work and stances, coiling/springy energy..but I still have along way to go.

[SPJ]

Good points.

2 Things though.

1) In practice, your eyes follow the lead hand, but your will/intent (Yi) is actually on the other hand.

For example, practice of Cloudy Hands (Yun Shou).

2) Single weightness is a big hurdle for a lot of people. Real vs empty (Shi Si).

Double weightness is No No in Tai Ji.

Which means your Qi near Dan Tien, but your weight is shifting or shifted either to the left or the right.

When you are still, you are all in stillness. And you focus on the opponent with all your attention. (Yi Jin Ze Chuan Jin)

When you move, your hands, arms, knees, feet, shoulders, elbows, and your whole body move. (Yi Dong Ze Chuan Dong).

That is really a balance act and how to shift weight seamlessly?

That is why a lot of practices are in still modes and slow modes.

A movement of an inch means a difference of a thousand miles in Tai Ji.

(Si Zi Hou Li; Sa Zi Chien Li)


:cool:

[David Jamieson]

tai chi needs to be done with natural breath and posture.

that is to say, not the bad posture and body habits you develop throughout your life by sitting poorly, walking poorly, being lazy, slouching in your chair etc etc.

The attempt is to return you to your "natural" state.

You should try to break the bad habits of poor breathing and posture, but not try to force a new posture according to the dictates of someone elses body shape.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Alternatively read the classics. They seem to think there are more than a few things that are important.

I agree with Shooter - if the head isn't suspended properly from above then nothing else will be possible - you can't raise the back and sink the chest if the head is not correctly suspended. I assume this works in both directions to some degree. However, the other aspects all need attention, otherwise you are relying on chance rather than work and effort. Ditto breathing - if you aren't breathing correctly then you can't take the right shapes, if you aren't in the right shape then you can't breathe properly anyway.

As I understand it, the chest should be neither convex nor concave, just sunk. If the chi is stuck to the back as it should be, then the chest will be normal and the shoulders will sink. Get someone to push into you from all angles whilst in each posture, if the chi (whatever you want to call it) is in the back, then you will be solid and the posture correct.

The key is to only work on one aspect at a time - raise that aspect and ingrain it before looking to the next. Then start again - layer upon layer of skill.

If anyone is interested, there is a book called The T'ai Chi Boxing Chronicle by Kuo Lien-Ying (ISBN 1-55643-177-5) that takes a comprehensive approach to this. I read it at least once a year and it always improves my training. Highly recommended.

I forgot - most importantly, get the spirit of vitality into your form. Cat chasing a mouse, hawk seizing a rabbit. If you think dull thoughts whilst training, then your form will be dull.

[count]

Originally posted by Shooter
there's only one;

~suspended from the top of your head~

everything else falls into place if you just hang

I sort of agree with this, but you must remember the armpits. Maintain the correct space and balance of tension/relaxation or you have nothing of tai chi. And also maintain and use a healthy supply of deoderant when you come to class. :p

[Shooter]

...but you must remember the armpits. Maintain the correct space and balance of tension/relaxation or you have nothing of tai chi

Yes. Don't forget the 'legpits'. Got peng?

[SPJ]

LOL.

Ha ha ha ha "snort" ha ha ha ha.

Out of breath. Got Qi?

:D

[SPJ]

To break the silence.

Count:

Space and tension/relaxation are keys to Tai Ji.


Shooter:

If there is no Peng, there is no Tai Ji.
Which means the correct space and balance of tension/relaxation are to produce and maintain Peng.


SPJ:

If there is no Qi, there is no Tai Ji.
Which means to have Qi is to start everything in Tai Ji.


:)

[count]

LOL, I'm glad to see my dry humor wasn't a total waste. At least a couple of you got it. IMO, the key is not what you observe but what you can hold on to and apply.

There are no two most important points to consider. I actually agree with shooter 100%, that if you can't get that first point, nothing else matters.

yangchengfu04,

As you can see from this thread, there are many points to consider and no two of utmost importance. There are also as many different approaches to achieving these points. The key as Kaitan pointed out, is everything is internalized in layers. Nothing is ever complete. It's up to the individual to keep refining.

I think of it more as pressing the top of your head up. Keep in mind the importance of holding your chin in and teeth together with your tongue pressed against the top of your mouth. Common sense actually. Try taking a smack to the face or neck otherwise. But this will also align your head and neck above your spine. This upwards pressing will begin to open the space. Maintain the space under your arms. Do not think to concave your chest! It reduces the space for your lungs to expand. Only allow it to relax. Yes, drop your butt but at the same time, lift the back at your scapula area. This opens the space in the spine. All this opening amounts to what? Peng of course. Got Peng? If not, forget power issuing and pray you never get hit.

Fu Pow,
In bagua, the monkey palm directly relates to the lungs. It is the easiest example to demonstrate correct usage in training. When you do an inside change in bagua, it is correct to open the opposite lungs more and close the inside lungs a bit. One side expands to increase the intake of air while the other side pumps the air. Why wouldn't you be able to get your torso involved in issuing power? Perhaps that's where the other harmonies are equally important?

If I had to point to any "crucial" differences between the three it could only be in a very general nature. In my observations, Hsing-I is soft on the inside and hard on the outside. Tai Chi is Hard on the inside and soft on the outside. Bagua changes between both. All three have circular, linear or square/directional stepping. Again generally speaking, Hsing-I is more forward facing, Tai chi is more angular facing and bagua is more sideways or from the back. All 3 make use spiraling energy. Tai chi's chan su jin is more like concentric circles. In Hsing-I the spirals are smaller and tighter. Bagua's lou xuan jin twists tighter inward and opens up outward. If you forget about these internal/external differences, all three change from wu ji to liang yi to tai chi. It's just a difference of which part of the circle supports you. IMO, a person is far better off, and will make faster progress, looking for the similarities and ignoring the differences.

Peter, good general observations all the way around. How come you haven't stopped by to meet us in Monterey Park yet? Or have you and I wasn't around or just didn't make the connection from the forums?

[SPJ]

Count;

Thank you very much for your invite.

I have a busy work schedule in the Animal Hospital.

I heard you and your teacher did a good job and have many good students. It certainly would be a preasure and honor to be able to visit and meet you and your teacher in person.

I came to the states since 1987. My study in school and work took up almost all of my time. I barely have time to keep a training or practice schedule.

You are right in your post.

To keep some space with your arms. The elbow is sinking and not near the the rib or some distance from the ribside. This way, you may use your forearm to peng.

Thanks again.


:)

[Kaitain(UK)]

I find that the space is a product of correctly raising the back and sinking the chest. It's possible to stick your elbows out and away and think you are doing the right thing but actually be in a bad posture. If the back is shaped properly then it just happens anyway.

To shape the back properly you need to suspend from the top of the head ;)