Focus

[Gangsterfist]

If wing chun is progressive training and effecient for combat in how it trains the body.

Then how does it progressively train the mind? Or should you always just keep a "little idea" and not dwell on things too much?

How do you teach your students to train their minds, how do you train your mind?

In SLT there are suppose to be no big thoughts when doing the form. Keep a little idea of what you do and do it. How does this apply to other forms in Wing Chun?

How does this effect you as a martial artist? As a figther? As a person?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


should you always just keep a "little idea" and not dwell on things too much?



when one is using a thought to always just keep a "little thought". One has just making one more and "bigger" thought to control the "little" one. :D How is this going to be "little'? instead, it gets bigger and more thoughts. hahahaha

similar to creating a program to control and narrow down other programs. how could that be a little idea or even less idea?

how could that live in NOW and Here?


CANT :D




and to be honest, the name "little idea" doesnt make a @#$% sense at all.

A thought is a thought disregards of the Contents is" little" or "big", the contents of the thought can range from ambitious or fantasy to..... go to restroom. But that is the contents. what the contents of a thought got to do with practicing a set of motion?

is it means thinking about poorvety (sp) which is "little" is better then thinking about "being millionaire" while practicing the set of motion?



so, is the "little" about the contents of the thought or the amount of the thoughts?


And, Be it about the contents or the amount of the thoughts. it never goes beyond the Thinker which doesnt live in NOW and Here. When one is having a thought, one has already away from Now and Here. Check with the EEG those Thoughts and thoughts are going to generate Beta wave. Not the Alpha.


the name of "little idea" could very likely be started just due to some one's teaching at a situation when the student is day dreaming while doing SLT. So, the sifu tells that person " keep a less thoughts and not scatering". But then, somehow, the name stick due to the student take the situation teaching as ultimate and obviously has no understanding about the nature of thought or Nim.

well, if that person thinking " thinking poorvety (sp) is better then thinking to be a Millionaire " then very certain that he/she has no idea about idea at all.:D think about it. what I said might be the truth. Hehehehhe. :D


It is similar to how the name Chop Suei comes from. There is no Chop Suei disc in China. the name Chop Suei is just a name told by some chief un-intentionally.





In addition, why the heck naming a set of motion with -- "little idea"? in Chinese naming rule. it doesnt make sense. :D


If it is about more focus and less thoughts. Why dont some one called it " Less Idea/thought'?



So, either the name Little Idea is a mis-pronouce(sp) on Little training in Cantonese. or if some one means "Less Idea/Thought". It is also very ridiculus to have a set call Little Idea and the next Little training. Doesnt make sense at all. That is totally NOT ZEn and NON ancient Chinese.


IMHO, my crazy idea ONLY :D, One right away knows it is a made up in the present era. The worse is if some other people copy that idea. Then, it will be caught with evidents. So, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, .... Dont copy something you dont have a clue. It looks really really really BAD when one copied others mistake and get caught. :D you need to take my ADVANCE seminal on how to make his-story and not get caught! :D:D



just some blue sky thoughts. (ofcorse it is passed thoughts, not the one NOw an Here.) :D Some might not like it or even hate this thoughts. Here is just the MAD man posting. dont take it seriously.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


how do you train your mind?



Being in NOW and Here. :D

[Savi]

Gangsterfist,

Have you already asked your Sifu this question? If so, what has he/she told you? Did it make sense to you?

One should ask oneself: "What particular thing am I to focus on?"

I would strongly suggest asking people of your lineage so that the feedback you get is more akin to your own experience and yields a greater success rate to match what you (specifically) do.

Where Siu Lihm Tau can be translated into "Beginning Little Drilling", and Siu Nihm Tau is translated into "Beginning Little Idea", they are in fact separate vehicles of attaining an understanding where one is mental - and the other is physical. From a certain POV, you cannot have one without the other. ***But that may only be true if your system makes that distinction (of two separate tracks of learning).

Some people use SLT; others use SNT. If what you learn classifies both the "ideas" and the "drilling" under one name, then it is what it is. I know of one that has both; HFY. If it's a matter of semantics for you, I don't think it is worth getting into. No big deal, eh?

For me, practicing the SNT form is a matter of developing proper body structure in accordance with the knowledge being taught to me. My mind must have the correct knowledge to help calibrate/guide my body structure. Cultivating the proper yi hei (intent) involves energy development and guidance along with proper timing of movements. That is usually my particular focus in practicing the SNT form.

Can you make the upcoming HFY seminar in Phoenix, AZ (Chandler location)? Our SNT will be part of the focus for the seminar.

[Da_Moose]

Gangsterfist,

Along what lines do you want to train the mind for this discussion? To be empty? To be single minded?

I would say for beginners it is important to have them train their mind by first learning how to make it still, so give them a focus. Maybe learning the sequence of the form would be a good start. They need to be in the present in order to learn something new, so as Hendrik said, teach them to be in the here and now, otherwise they’re likely to miss the form or mess up the sequences. Once they have the sequence down as second nature, teach the student to focus on their breathing via the daan tien in a relaxed manner. Once this is achieved, teach them to connect their inhalation/exhalation with their hand motions, breathing in and out appropriately with the hand movements. After that, I’m at a loss for suggestions/possibilities. Maybe have them focus on consistency of their form, trying to play it the same each time without too much variation in expression, maybe just have them focus more on emptying the mind without going through the sequences above? It depends on what you as the teacher want to have them train at a specific moment.

In HFY, we train ourselves to be ‘no mind’ via the HFY formula. The formula acts as the guide for our movements in the beginning, helping us train our bodies to adhere to it. For us, Siu Nim Tau is used for training our identities in Time and Space, teaching us the limits of our personal space within the confines of a 6-gate posture. The formula allows us to train with a focused consistency, providing optimal positioning for our limbs within the gates. This requires a very focused awareness in the moment for initial learning, then as we internalize the formula and its expression, the body just does it naturally, adhering to the formula that is. Personally, I have now found my thoughts wandering/thinking about as I play my Siu Nim Tau sometimes, causing me to mess up a sequence or two at times, which is an immediate reality check for me as I return to the here and now with a crash when this happens. For the most part though, I remain focused on the positioning of my limbs and ‘programming’ them to act according to the formula.

When playing Fa Kuen, my focus/mind is different, depending on what I am seeking to perfect. Right now, I am focusing on uniting the flow of my body methods within each step of the form. If I become distracted by something else (stray thought…), I lose my flow and have to work to re-establish it. Right now, in my experiences with both forms, I’d have to say that Fa Kuen is more conducive for emptying the mind for most people as it is a moving form. Siu Nim Tau may not be the best for the average person as it is stationary for the most part, so people have to work harder to maintain their focus/emptiness of the mind. It comes with time though, much like anything worthwhile. That is one thing the student must understand. They will not get it over night and should not feel like a dullard if it takes a month or two for their minds to begin to empty/focus/become little…

As for how it affects one as a fighter, for me it has been a great tool to settle my anticipation in sparring and confrontations. I do not worry so much about what the other person will do, I just respond to the stimulus they provide me with as I need to. For example, last year when I was working in a restaurant, one of the cooks had it in his mind to test my kung fu. He was about 6’8” tall, maybe 200 lbs. I am 6’ even, 180 lbs. He straight came at me (in a rather dumb manner) with some punches to my head, and a second later he was bent over with my right arm controlling his two arms, my left fist just below his chin, resulting from a series of pak sau. I didn’t realize what I had done until he was saying “Man, your fast, won’t be doing that again!” I had been thinking about something else when he tested me, and I reacted to the moment. All I did was smile at his comment and then went about my business. As a whole, I am a lot more relaxed and aware of my surroundings, both physically and mentally. I am in the moment, and my body is trained to occupy its space without me having to really worry about it, as is my mind, ready for whatever may happen. I think this is the over all result of training in the martial arts period though. It may be that Wing Chun has a more efficient way of training is practitioners to become ‘no mind’ than other systems due to its ways of thinking and conceptualizing things. Techniques no longer are the main focus, the concepts allow us to react to the space as needed, which in my opinion is the Little Idea.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
so as Hendrik said, teach them to be in the here and now,

otherwise they’re likely to miss the form or mess up the sequences. Once they have the sequence down as second nature, teach the student to focus on their breathing via the daan tien in a relaxed manner. Once this is achieved, teach them to connect their inhalation/exhalation with their hand motions, breathing in and out appropriately with the hand movements. After that, I’m at a loss for suggestions/possibilities. Maybe have them focus on consistency of their form, trying to play it the same each time without too much variation in expression, maybe just have them focus more on emptying the mind without going through the sequences above? It depends on what you as the teacher want to have them train at a specific moment.

.


Nope,

that is not what I said.

miss a hair breadth lost ten thousand miles.

[Da_Moose]

Hendrik,
Time for a grammar lesson. Here's what you said, word for word:


Being in NOW and Here.

What I did was the CONCEPT known as paraphrasing. I did not use your exact words, but I used the idea you conveyed through them (see quote above). I felt no reason to word for word re-state what had already been stated, so I gave you due credit in saying this:


so as Hendrik said , teach them to be in the here and now, otherwise they’re likely to miss the form or mess up the sequences.

What I paraphrased you as saying was OFFSET by the COMMAS (note there are two of them, one before 'teach', and one after 'now'). Using commas in ths manner denotes something as being a 'contained extra'. What I paraphrased you saying BEGAN at the comma before "teach" and ENDED at the comma after "now". Got it? Make sense?

If you have a problem with people quoting you, maybe you need the copyright 'R' after everything you type. Besides, I seem to remember you being very adept at quoting other people's writings in ways that make them appear wrong and you correct, by not quoting everything they write, rather only the points you can easily disagree with. In the future though, I'll be sure not to quote or paraphrase you, I'm not a grammar or ESOL teacher and I don't have time to give you English lessons each post.

[Gangsterfist]

This is probably more of a personal question rather than a lineage specific one.

How do you train your mind, your focus, etc.


Like, when someone comes towards you in agression the fight has already begun. Even though no punches have been thrown or no words have been said. The intention is there. If you can focus in on these things you can see them coming before they start. I saw a fight between two drunks about a month ago and I could tell they were gonna get into a fight before either of them started yelling at each other. Really there is no set formula for this. Possibly no set answers. However, lately I think I can feel people emotions by just being around them. This hasn't been the first time either. Infact the focus, is probably not focusing at all. When someone puts a guard up and starts attacking me I don't focus sometimes, I just go do what I am going to do. No thoughts, just action.

As for the SLT, I thought it actually translated as: "Put it in your head to study the concept of effecient, small, economical, compact motions."

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
Hendrik,
Time for a grammar lesson. Here's what you said, word for word:



What I did was the CONCEPT known as paraphrasing. I did not use your exact words, but I used the idea you conveyed through them (see quote above). I felt no reason to word for word re-state what had already been stated, so I gave you due credit in saying this:



What I paraphrased you as saying was OFFSET by the COMMAS (note there are two of them, one before 'teach', and one after 'now'). Using commas in ths manner denotes something as being a 'contained extra'. What I paraphrased you saying BEGAN at the comma before "teach" and ENDED at the comma after "now". Got it? Make sense?

If you have a problem with people quoting you, maybe you need the copyright 'R' after everything you type. Besides, I seem to remember you being very adept at quoting other people's writings in ways that make them appear wrong and you correct, by not quoting everything they write, rather only the points you can easily disagree with. In the future though, I'll be sure not to quote or paraphrase you, I'm not a grammar or ESOL teacher and I don't have time to give you English lessons each post.



Thanks for you quoting me.

But,

Still,
miss a hair breadth lost ten thousand miles.


Dont quote what others say, say things in your own way, for you might not understand what others mean even you think you do.





As for,"
I'm not a grammar or ESOL teacher and I don't have time to give you English lessons each post."
You want to start about gramma, whether it is Tan Tahn..... that is up to you. It is not my concern.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
1, Like, when someone comes towards you in agression the fight has already begun. Even though no punches have been thrown or no words have been said. The intention is there. If you can focus in on these things you can see them coming before they start. ....



2, As for the SLT, I thought it actually translated as: "Put it in your head to study the concept of effecient, small, economical, compact motions."


1, there is intention, there is sensing, there is focus.....

but is it true that in all case "if you can focus in on these things you can see them coming before they start.." ?


or the more one trying to focus the narrower the sensing; and it could gets into a state of " just seeing the object one wants to see" and the rest blank out, or even the fear a rise and just has no way to handle the inner fear or thoughts....., and at last, one just lost it and goes impulsing reaction.



How many people out there telling themself, stay focus, stay focus.... but not even thier body or thoughts listen to them?


Tonight, where you are going to sleep, keep focus and see how far you can focus before you lost into thoughts stream and dooze off. Try that and oberseve about the nature of that FOCUS.



Try that in Chi Sau too, see if the more one wants to FOCUS, the more one got slaps on the face?




What Da Moose trying to qoute me. and add on his own ideas....etc

---------so as Hendrik said, teach them to be in the here and now,

otherwise they’re likely to miss the form or mess up the sequences.
Once they have the sequence down as second nature,

teach the student to focus on their breathing via the daan tien in a relaxed manner.

Once this is achieved, teach them to connect their inhalation/exhalation with their hand motions, breathing in and out appropriately with the hand movements. ---


This is a dead trap seems LOGICALLY perfect for training BUT it is a dead trap in Chinese MArtial art.

The trap that trapping millions of people who can do SET and SETS to be very great. But, in the sametime, living within thier routine and thoughts, similar to a ROBOT, where when facing an attack by a guy, with daily training in heavy bag and sparing continously for a few months without Set training, fail miserablely.



you people who train " focus on their breathing via the daan tien in a relaxed manner. " get a stopwatch and a brainwave machine to see how many minutes you can stay in that state before losing that focus into a scattering thoughts stream? On the other hand, is SLT a sitting meditation? if it is not, why is one doing this? practicing a wrong thing in a wrong place?




"Once this is achieved, teach them to connect their inhalation/exhalation with their hand motions, breathing in and out appropriately with the hand movements."

This above is a totally out too. Any one read the TAiji classical knows, " the attention is on the shen, not in the Qi/breathing. on the breathing will cause stagnation/clumsy."

So?





You see, SLT is not Chop Suei. One cant just mix up all the Vegi and stir fried them to make SLT:D and SLT is not English GRAMMA too. :D You want to learn how to make a better His-Story, take my ADVANCE HIS-STORY making class. heheheh :D



Hendrik's NOW and HERE require the practitioner to achive the BE ABLE to "SEE" the "THINKER" and goes beyond. There is a big different between NOW and HERE within the THINKER REALM and NOW and HERE in the BEYOND THINKER. DA MOOSE has no idea what hendrik is talking about. Obviously, what hendrik's talking about is beyond the Thinker and far far far beyond GRAMMA. :D


Until one can "SEE" the thinker, life is tough, because one has no idea what iin one's mind is the result of the thoughts one created or it is from the reality one face.

VAn Helsing's heart beat doesnt goes irregular when he meets Count Dracula. in the movie VAn Helsing. That is because VAn Helsing SEEs Dracula as it is. not as the bias or fear thoughts. VAn knows the Thinker, knows where to place his FOCUS for his best use.....NOW , HERE.


A FOCUS is a function, that "thing" which "KNOW" how to use the FOCUS properly is if not much more important but as important compare with the ability to FOCUS itself.


FOCUS as itself doesnt solve all of the issues.

AND, the NOw and Here within the Thinker is dull. the Now and Here beyond the Thoughts is lively.




2, dont think when you train the set.
otherwise, you will get lots and lots of ideas. and hear lots of lots of "voice" from your sifu or your friends or even my voice.."SLT has to be this this this, Tan SAu has to be... or my mom's Bday party next week....etc....

But are those ideas reflex the reality of what it is the training is about? NO.

Things go even worst when one using those "great" idea such as "oh, one must train SLT for 2 hours" to set the goal for the training. Then, everything following the "Great" ideas and lost contract with Realtiy of what the set is about. It becomes a personal creation based on one's thoughts.


just some blue sky DRUNKEN P*SS people of post. Hehehehe :D
I think it is better to use RIDDLE and CIRCLE post next time. SO people Dont get people P*SS. :D

[old jong]

Very IMHO!...
Simply practice your form while being awake and do your best to stay awake.The instant you realise you are daydreaming,bring yourself to the moment here now and be aware of you,doing the form.It is amazing how little times we are really "awake" during the day.We are always jumping from idea to idea without any control or even counsciousness of it.
Try to be "there" for one minute only without falling into some dream.You will be surprised how many times you have to pull yourself out of some random thoughts...If you are not too deep in them zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Oups!...;)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by old jong
Very IMHO!...
Simply practice your form while being awake and do your best to stay awake.The instant you realise you are daydreaming,bring yourself to the moment here now and be aware of you,doing the form.It is amazing how little times we are really "awake" during the day.We are always jumping from idea to idea without any control or even counsciousness of it.
Try to be "there" for one minute only without falling into some dream.You will be surprised how many times you have to pull yourself out of some random thoughts...If you are not too deep in them zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Oups!...;)


great!

[Gangsterfist]

How about viewing it like this. Everything in the SLT, every single movement is a concept. Its an idea of how to use structure, and the human body. Its an idea of how do something. Its not set in stone or blood or through some other means.

Keeping the little idea about it reminds you that its a concept and not exact. Applying the tan/bong/fook in a real situation will not be like the form hardly at all. Its not an exact science or an exact way to do something. Its an idea and a concept. Keeping that state of mind will help you develope other attributes. Attributes like timing, sensitivity, execution, etc etc. Once you realize to just do it, you can get past a lot of things.

Like for example, sometimes now when I spar I do not see my opponet the same. I used to see a whole human body, 2 legs, 2 arms, torso, and a head. Now I only see the torso and the head. I don't even worry about the limbs. Its kind of hard to explain. Its like instead of thinking or analyzing what I am doing, I just do it. I throw a punch to establish contact. Sometimes it gets blocked sometimes it doesn't. I throw another one. Its all conceptual. Not overly focusing also lets me act upon situations through sensitivity or sensing things. I think a reaction takes too long, so you must act upon something instead. Cancel an attack with an attack (da sao jik siu sao). Once the intent is there the fight has already begun. Once they approach you it has already begun. It begins before any actions are taken or words spoken. Just remember that.

Teaching your students how to focus on certain things would possibly open up your eyes to how you should train the mind. If you do teach wing chun what concepts do you teach to your students about mind sets and focusing?

[anerlich]

If you are interested in *performance* rather than, or as well as, immersing yourself in quasi-cultural or -religious doctrine, google up Sports Psychology - there are a ton of good books also.

www.zoneofexcellence.com has a free section with some interesting stuff on how some Canadian Olympic Medallists did it.

I picked up an excellent book recently called "Lessons from the Edge", discussing physical and mental conditioning as used by extreme athletes, climbers, adventure racers, etc. Some of those people are amazingly tough mentally. Fascinating stuff and applicable to MA if you are open minded enough.

www.braingym.org is also interesting. Read up on Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Neurolinguistic Programming. Just because you do a TCMA doesn't mean you have to stick with that tradition to develop your mind.

Most importantly, LEARN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF. Don't let yourself be spoon fed, anaylse everything you are told in class and look at it from as many different points of view as possible. don't give up your facility for critical thinking.

My first instuctor used to say "flexibility of mind and body is the hallmark of a good martial artist". Stay flexible.

[Gangsterfist]

Yeah its like when I first started doing push ups 100 push ups seemed like a ton and I got tired before I could finish. I got pushed and pushed to finish by my sifu/coaches to just tough it out and get through it. The whole mind over matter thing.

Also, in some classes I took if you say "I can't" or "thats impossible" you automatically have to do 100 push ups after class. So you do the work out and then train and then all the push ups you owe the teacher at the end of class. It does actually condition the mind. Also a little hard work now and then will benefit you.

It seems like everytime I hit a platoue in training and then spike back up a bit my perspective changes. It could be simple or complex it depends.

When you know you are going to get hit what do you do? Honestly, there have been a few times in my life where I have purposely let my opponet land a strike first. To gauge how hard they can hit and see how much of it I can take. Also, I used it as a tool. Get an adrenalin rush and make my opponets strikes ineffective.

Anyone else ever use focusing to get through similar things? What are some experiences?

I got this off that zone of excellence web site

Excellence is a state of mind. It emerges freely when your focus is centered on the right things at the right time.

Which makes me also think about training how to focus. You need to learn to focus at the right thing at the right time. How can this be acheived? By training how to focus on things due to circumstance? Or by not focusing at all?


Most importantly, LEARN TO THINK FOR YOURSELF. Don't let yourself be spoon fed, anaylse everything you are told in class and look at it from as many different points of view as possible. don't give up your facility for critical thinking.

I agree, and I hope this was not directed towards me. The people I train with always say to train by yourself the way you feel you should train. Meaning that a lot of things will be through self discovery. Certain people lay down point a and point b for people, how everyone chooses to get there will be different. Some will take the high road, some will take the low road, and some will bend the space time continuem to get there. In the end if you work hard everyone will end up near the same place they just would have had different journey's to get there.

[Hendrik]

How about viewing it like this. Everything in the SLT, every single movement is a concept. Its an idea of how to use structure, and the human body. Its an idea of how do something. Its not set in stone or blood or through some other means. ------


Here you are thinking and intelecturized again. Remember not to think and keep awake?



Keeping the little idea about it reminds you that its a concept and not exact. Applying the tan/bong/fook in a real situation will not be like the form hardly at all. Its not an exact science or an exact way to do something. Its an idea and a concept. Keeping that state of mind will help you develope other attributes. Attributes like timing, sensitivity, execution, etc etc. Once you realize to just do it, you can get past a lot of things. -----


You cant keep or hold a state of mind for long. Try it if you dont believe.



Once the intent is there the fight has already begun. Once they approach you it has already begun. It begins before any actions are taken or words spoken. Just remember that. -------



Nope, the fight is not begun when others set up thier intention.

ONe can choose not to fight and walk away.
One can choose not to fight and talk away.
One can choose not to fight and Beg away.
One can choose not to fight and pay away.
One can choose to have a mentallity of " I am not interested in fighting. I am interested only to beat the heck out of you." That is about beating not about fighting.
One can choose to see" Let see how good are you? I love this fun game"
One can choose ......
there is not only one way to settle things. and if you dont program your mind to do that only one way, you dont have to react that way.


Why one has to react or response on other's call?





Teaching your students how to focus on certain things would possibly open up your eyes to how you should train the mind. If you do teach wing chun what concepts do you teach to your students about mind sets and focusing? --------


The trouble is not too many knows about thier own mind at all. So what and how to teach?

Focus is narrowing down the view of mind so one can process a certain thing with more energy. But one cannot keep on narrowing down and not see what is behind.

[Gangsterfist]

I am going to disagree with you on one point hendrick.

Once there is intent, yes the fight has begun. This reminds me of an old samurai fable. Two samurai are both traveling down the same path towards each other. There is a bridge in the middle of this path that crosses a pretty big river. There is only room for one of them to pass. They meet on the bridge and stare each other down. Each of them gazing into one another and not saying anything and not making any physical action towards another. They are infact dueling each other with their mindsets. They focus on one another and stand there for a day. After a full day they both turn around and walk away. They have come to the conclusion that they are evenly matched and at a stale mate.

You can choose not to fight, but that is still fighting. The art of fighting with out fighting, as bruce lee put it. Maybe its because I am a westerner and do not fully understand the eastern philosophy? Maybe I understand it more than I let myself on to? Maybe what I know is completely wrong?

If someone has intent towards you, then the fight has already begun. How you choose to end it will be up to you. If you can sense this you can usually avoid it all together. One example of how I do this is how I travel. I live in the city and walk everywhere to save money on spending gas. I only drive to work and to kung fu class, everywhere else I walk. There have been a lot of muggings, shootings, and car jackings lately around my area. A newly engaged couple got shot and killed in a parking lot of a bar 2 weeks ago over a car jacking. That bar is about 3 or 4 blocks from my house. I avoid doing certain things, avoid walking down certain areas, and avoid certain people when I see them. I can sense, or guess the intent sometimes. I just see someone and instantly think to myself they are shady and up to no good by how they present themselves. I could be wrong, but I haven't gotten mugged yet (except for one time last year I got mugged but I just gave teh guy all the cash in my pocket and he ran off, I even kept my wallet however I had been out drinking with the guys and walked home, and kinda walked the wrong way).

So, in the past I have acted upon the situations to avoid them all together. If someone has the intention to come mug you there is no philosophy to stop it. You deal with it then and make a choice that instant whether to fight them back or to give them what they want. There is no thought, no thinking process, there is just action in those situations. Same thing goes for someone who comes up and wants to fight you. The reason behind it is pointless because you cannot just change someone's mind at will by speaking buddhism to them.

I prefer not to fight people, but I do when I have to. That is why I avoid certain things based on how I feel about the situation.

[Da_Moose]

My apologies to you Gangsterfist for this digression. It seems as if during the exchange of ideas and opinions, I made several that the Great Sage Hendrik, in his all knowing glory, has stated are wrong. According to who, I do not know.


Dont quote what others say, say things in your own way, for you might not understand what others mean even you think you do.

So let me get this straight. You’re the one who presumed I was directly quoting you because you don’t understand the finer nuances of English grammar? Then you dispense the above advice to me? Dude, you’re a walking contradiction. If you’re going to give such advice, why not take it and use it for yourself? You might be better off if you can practice what you preach before advising others on such matters. I never said I was interpreting your words or anything. Paraphrasing is taking other pre-existing words and adding your own ideas to them, so I was not trying to make a statement based on my understanding of what you said. Dig?


What Da Moose trying to qoute me. and add on his own ideas....etc

---------so as Hendrik said, teach them to be in the here and now,

otherwise they’re likely to miss the form or mess up the sequences.
Once they have the sequence down as second nature,

teach the student to focus on their breathing via the daan tien in a relaxed manner.

Once this is achieved, teach them to connect their inhalation/exhalation with their hand motions, breathing in and out appropriately with the hand movements. ---

Wasn’t trying to quote you, otherwise I’d have just done so. As for the here and now with the sequences, I was referring to the fact that beginners have trouble with the forms at times, especially if their minds wander about. They lose the awareness of what is going on now, and hence, get lost during the form, messing up a sequence or section.


This above is a totally out too. Any one read the TAiji classical knows, " the attention is on the shen, not in the Qi/breathing. on the breathing will cause stagnation/clumsy."

“Totally out” according to whom? You, oh great and wise sage of all that is Wing Chun? Claiming to be omniscient are we? So you’re now telling me that what I have experienced and learned is not valid, real, etc.? I’m not disputing the Taiji knowledge, but in the beginning, there has to be attention on the breathing for most people since they have ‘forgotten’ what their diaphragm is and breathe with their chest.


You see, SLT is not Chop Suei. One cant just mix up all the Vegi and stir fried them to make SLT and SLT is not English GRAMMA too. You want to learn how to make a better His-Story, take my ADVANCE HIS-STORY making class. heheheh

Uhm, yeah, ok. Not too sure what you said there. I’d rather not take your classes at all from the way you’re speaking here, not even commanding a basic understanding of the English language and how it is employed, otherwise, you’d have understood the concept of paraphrasing when I first mentioned it. Oh wait, that’s right! I said it was a concept. Sorry, I’ll have to send you a pool skimmer so you can catch it. Granted that SNT/SLT isn’t English grammar, but talking about anything in English requires some basic grammar, no? I imagine it’s the same in Chinese, for its true of every other language in the world. Maybe I just didn’t see your sign from Foxworthy.


DA MOOSE has no idea what hendrik is talking about.

You got that right. And I’m sure a lot of people here are just as clueless regarding what you say here, if any sense of it can be made at all. Go squawk elsewhere.

One question for you though, Hendrik:

“How you get so big if make posts of your kind?”

[Hendrik]

I am going to disagree with you on one point hendrick. -----

why not? Disagreement is welcome.



Once there is intent, yes the fight has begun. -----

Go out there get a nice hot young lady and cast an intent of you love her. So, is the Love starts there? :D





This reminds me of an old samurai fable. Two samurai are both traveling down the same path towards each other. There is a bridge in the middle of this path that crosses a pretty big river.

There is only room for one of them to pass.

They meet on the bridge and stare each other down. Each of them gazing into one another and not saying anything and not making any physical action towards another.


They are infact dueling each other with their mindsets.


They focus on one another and stand there for a day.


After a full day they both turn around and walk away. They have come to the conclusion that they are evenly matched and at a stale mate. ---------


That is a great scene for a movie isnt it. :D


That is very macho ego isnt it, not Zen at all.

If the Samurai meet and american tourist, the tourist might says " hola Amigo, nice day and you can pass first"
then no need to spend a day there day dreaming and stressing there.


Who knows are they infact dueling each other with thier mindsets. or they are just fighting thier on FEAR due to their own speculation within thier thoughts? and spinning thier brain's hard disk for nothing but grasping thier own thoughts.






You can choose not to fight, but that is still fighting. ---

I remember when I asked a young girl to be my girl friend decade ago, she told me you might be in LOVE but I am not. hehehehe




The art of fighting with out fighting, as bruce lee put it. Maybe its because I am a westerner and do not fully understand the eastern philosophy? Maybe I understand it more than I let myself on to? Maybe what I know is completely wrong? ----


Eastern philosophy or Western philosophy are just Philosophy.
It is more important to beable to come to know that "person" who can choose which philosophy he/she likes or not choosing at all then let the Eastern or Western govern oneself.





If someone has intent towards you, then the fight has already begun. ====


fighting needs condition to begun. if you aware of other's intention and dont provide the condition to begun the fight. the fight is not begin yet.




How you choose to end it will be up to you. If you can sense this you can usually avoid it all together. One example of how I do this is how I travel. I live in the city and walk everywhere to save money on spending gas. I only drive to work and to kung fu class, everywhere else I walk. ........ Same thing goes for someone who comes up and wants to fight you. The reason behind it is pointless because you cannot just change someone's mind at will by speaking buddhism to them. ------



If you love to react into a fight when you sense other has the fighting intent towards you. Go ahead, you dont need reason. it is your choice.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose
[B]My apologies to you Gangsterfist for this digression. It seems as if during the exchange of ideas and opinions, I made several that the Great Sage Hendrik,


....You got that right. And I’m sure a lot of people here are just as clueless regarding what you say here, if any sense of it can be made at all. Go squawk elsewhere.
B]



See, if one doesnt FOCUS right, hendrik be come Great Sage Hendrik. :D

BTW.
I dont recall you own this public forum.
I also dont recall this is an English Gramma forum. ARe you in the proper forum? :D

Now a test about FOCUS, could you let go your emotion, your thought stream at this instant? totally drop it clean. Try and see. :D

[Gangsterfist]

it could be zen. Perhaps they were from two different clans and were in a fued. They decided not to kill each other because it was an even match and a stale mate. There is honor in that still.

However, yes it is kind of meat-headish.

Fighting does not need a condition to begin. It just needs an intention. If someone wants to fight you for whatever means they justified it by, they will probably fight you. It may just be out of pent up aggression, mental problems, etc.

Once the intent is there it has begun. You could perhaps defuse the intent and stop it befroe any actions or conditions have started.

[Hendrik]

it could be zen. Perhaps they were from two different clans and were in a fued. They decided not to kill each other because it was an even match and a stale mate. There is honor in that still.

However, yes it is kind of meat-headish.-------


if it is about honor then it is not Zen at all. See, honor is our worst EGO. It can place us in a pedal stone that we have to spend sooooo much energy just for feeding that Honor/EGO. such as even argue in this forum. :D we all human so we all do it.

Zen is about let go. So there is a problem in trying to illustrate Zen with those old Samurai stories. See, if the samurai is not affraid to die and that is ZEn. But then, see who is the master behind? That Honor. So, when the HONOR is using Zen to feed the Honor. That is not Zen at all.

Zen will be get rid of that Honor and say "Hola Amigo to the samurai of the other side of the brigde and give him a flower. " that is Zen. if one is so Zen that not affraid to die, why cant one just relax and having fun? and say HOLA AMIGO instead of looking with that mean or pretend to be mean looks? :D at that point, the stagnation and tense of both side relax and open up. Focus no longer in that fighting but in Everything, bridge, human, sky, flowers, amigo, smile...... no longer that tense standing still and only two person filling up the whole world stagnation focus.



You want to take a break and pay attention to the window or door beside your computer. and look if you can find anything you have never notice before?

There, you open up your mind. :D

[Gangsterfist]

Well, for one I never talked about zen. I was talking about focus, mindsets, and intent.

You brought up zen. I have no problem with buddhism but would rather not discuss it on a public message board, nor would I discuss any religion really. Even though buddhism is more of a philosophy. That is because I do not wish to push any kind of beliefe on anyone.

You keep telling people to be zen, thats oppressive. What if they do not want to be zen. What if they want to be open minded scientifically, or logically????

Again, another thread hi-jacked about being zen and petty arguments.

[PaulH]

Once being asked what SLT means, WSL stated that SLT idea is more of a young seed. And I think it is. If it indeed focuses on some particular aspects, then I think its foundation rests more on balance of mind/body/spirit in stillness or in motion as well as the introduction of various tools to go about achieving it. SLT to me is more of an inward introspection. It is not what I can do or intimidate him who dare to cross my bridge, but more of a firm resolution of never losing my balance or center in the tumults of war. =)

[Gangsterfist]

Thanks for sharing paul!

I have also heard unification of the mind/body/spirit before in several different systems of gong fu.

[anerlich]

I agree, and I hope this was not directed towards me.

No, it wasn't.

Unless you want to be a scholar of some sort rather than become skilful, leave the Zen/Ch'an out of it is my advice. As the above demonstrates admirably, the result is silly arguments, pomposity, airheadishness and ratbaggery. It doesn't help, it just gets between you and reality.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich

Unless you want to be a scholar of some sort rather than become skilful, leave the Zen/Ch'an out of it is my advice. As the above demonstrates admirably, the result is silly arguments, pomposity, airheadishness and ratbaggery. It doesn't help, it just gets between you and reality.



Very true.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Well, for one I never talked about zen. I was talking about focus, mindsets, and intent.

You brought up zen. I have no problem with buddhism but would rather not discuss it on a public message board, nor would I discuss any religion really. Even though buddhism is more of a philosophy. That is because I do not wish to push any kind of beliefe on anyone.

You keep telling people to be zen, thats oppressive. What if they do not want to be zen. What if they want to be open minded scientifically, or logically????

Again, another thread hi-jacked about being zen and petty arguments.

Circle Game

Yesterday Hendrik came out to wander.
Caught a dragonfly inside a jar.
He goes round and round.
Zen this, Zen That...
Shaolin this, Shaolin that...
SLT this, SLT that...
And...
where there are questions, there are no answers.

[PaulH]

No need to thank me, GFists. I'm just passing along what I know. The credits go to WSL and others. Hendrik actually helps me quite a bit with several of his illuminating posts. Whatever one says about Hendrik's posts, His WC philosophy discussion is very Wingchunesque! I find his insights very helpful in my understanding of WC theory and practice at Gary's gym. =)

[Rhat]

Brother PaulH,

Sometimes it is difficult to tell "a light bult" from a harmless remark or a lighthearted tease.

Take ourselves lightly is joining the angels.:cool:

[PaulH]

Benjamin Franklin once said man is an interesting creature. He is one half demon and the other half angel. Now which half are you, brother Rhat? =)

[AmanuJRY]

IMHO, the development of focus or mindset is going to be largly directed by your intent.

What is your intent?

self-defence.
Rape prevention
Domestic violence
other violent crimes

Security
bouncer
bodyguard

sport.


If your intent is merely training in WC, the mind/focus is simple - train and learn. When your intent goes beyond the classroom, into any of the above (or others not listed) the focus you develop will be determined by the need.

I train my focus by studying things related to my intent. Mostly my intent is self-defence, so I study those things that are assosiated with violence. Who, what, when, where, why, how....these infamous questions, but relating to violence.

When the 's**t' goes down, stress response takes control of your mind/focus, so train with the idea of generating natural reflexes that do not require cognition, and are withing the scope of a stress situation (i.e. small, dexterous movements and intricate motor skills are limited under stress). So the classic training of 'no-thought' or 'no-thing' help, IMO.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
When the 's**t' goes down, stress response takes control of your mind/focus, so train with the idea of generating natural reflexes that do not require cognition, and are withing the scope of a stress situation (i.e. small, dexterous movements and intricate motor skills are limited under stress). So the classic training of 'no-thought' or 'no-thing' help, IMO.


Very True.

[Tom Kagan]

To train your mind via the Ving Tsun method, follow these guidelines:

- sit on your horse
- occupy center
- disperse, deflect, dominate
- hit, kick, thrust, slice
- practice, practice, practice
- enjoy, grow, live
- cooperate, share, pass it on

- suffer the consequences of succeeding and/or failing at the above

Repeat as needed.

[anerlich]

"Benjamin Franklin once said man is an interesting creature. He is one half demon and the other half angel. "

And Henry Rollins once said similar except he is part animal, part machine. I even have the T shirt somewhere.

[PaulH]

I saw the old classic King Kong movie (1933?) yesterday. When the "beast" realized that he was about to die seeing blood on his chest, he very humanly nudged his "beauty" blond with his fingers the last time before falling down from the top of the Empire State Building in New York. Interesting enough, Both Churchill and Hitler saw this movie before WWII. Old Ben's advice is right at least for this movie! =)

[Vajramusti]

Yes Paul-

King Kong is a subtle but tragic love story.

But animals acting like humans? Actually many animals have wide ranges of "emotions" despite early behaivorist perspectives.
The range depends on the species.
Humans sometimes have a weaker understanding of reciprocal loyalties than many canines. Dont get me started on elephants.

BTW- in my metro somewhere there is a small rain forest gorilla
that is trained to dial 911 when the animal senses an oncoming crisis of his ill mistress.

An ex wing chun student of mine who films tv commercials used
that gorilla for a shot. Mischievous fellow- kept taking out the comb and the pencil from my student's pocket.

In the Tucson zoo there was once a tiger who would purr and roll over whenever my mother wearing a sari came near the cage.

joy

www.tempewingchun.com

[PaulH]

That tiger must come from Winnie-the Pooh! =) Good points, Joy!

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
And Henry Rollins once said similar except he is part animal, part machine. I even have the T shirt somewhere.


The fact that you even have a T-shirt of Hank's moves you up a few notches on my 'cool guy' scale.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
Benjamin Franklin once said man is an interesting creature. He is one half demon and the other half angel. Now which half are you, brother Rhat? =)

Brother paulH,

To the right-minded nothing costs more dear than what is given. Between the demon and the angel, ha! I see myself as "Zatoichi"--Not all who see have their eyes open, nor do all those see who look.;)

[Hendrik]

Zatoichi is my greatest buddy who supports and helps me to become famous in the field of COLOR in this COLORFULL world. :D

[PaulH]

And where are the rest of you, Brother Rhat? Drop down too this new Zatoichi hat and let me look at ya just the way you are! =)

[Tydive]

While I have zero Wing Chun experience I would love to comment on some of this...

Zatoichi rocks.

As for focus, it really does not matter how you get out of your head, just that you do. Some like Zen or NLP or Yogi Philosoply, Tao or half a dozen other ways, but the bottom line is to understand that you are not your thoughts.

Not just understand it as a concept, but experience it. You see a concept is not the thing. In fact our concepts can make it very difficult to realize the truth of a thing, because people think they know a thing when all they really have is an understanding of a concept.

Be relaxed, stay in the moment, stay centered. Don't think it, do it. Don't try to do it, do it. Don't talk about it, do it. Sheesh, now I feel like a Nike sales person who spent too much time with Yoda.

If you are thinking about what you are going to do, or what your partner is going to do then you are not in the moment. If you are aware of your surrondings and that you are not seperate from them... well, then you have a chance of acting in an appropriate manner.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
And where are the rest of you, Brother Rhat?

Sometimes I get so busy, I just wish that I could fly and do wing chun at the same time, I'll wake the streets of heaven. Where brother PaulH can see.


Drop down too this new Zatoichi hat and let me look at ya just the way you are! =)

The way I am!

And just like all the other angels. Today I would rather say I am not a soul in a body, nor a body in a soul. I'm a soulbody--"Zatoichi"

Tydive is right about that Zatoichi rocks.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Tydive
the bottom line is to understand that you are not your thoughts.

Not just understand it as a concept, but experience it. You see a concept is not the thing. In fact our concepts can make it very difficult to realize the truth of a thing, because people think they know a thing when all they really have is an understanding of a concept.

Be relaxed, stay in the moment, stay centered. Don't think it, do it. Don't try to do it, do it. Don't talk about it, do it. Sheesh, now I feel like a Nike sales person who spent too much time with Yoda.

If you are thinking about what you are going to do, or what your partner is going to do then you are not in the moment. If you are aware of your surrondings and that you are not seperate from them... well, then you have a chance of acting in an appropriate manner.



Who is the person who has that " understanding" that you are not your thoughts?

That is still thoughts, isnt it? :D hehehehehe




If you are aware of your surrondings and that you are not seperate from them... well, then you have a chance of acting in an appropriate manner. -------


Then, one is in a state of an appropriate manner of thinking one is beyond the thinker but infact is within the Thoughts, which tries to simulate beyond the thought, by expand the realm of the thoughts. :D


Nope, still not entering that gate of no door. :D

Until you see your original face before your parents were born, dont get delude by your thoughts. :D

Now, think about how do you looks like before your parents were born. is it "aware of your surrondings and that you are not seperate from them... " ? hahahaha


Nice Try!

[Tydive]

Hendrik, thanks for the laugh.