The cyclic body movements of SLT

[Hendrik]

Is there any cyclic body movements in SLT?

[anerlich]

If you do it several times in a session, yes.

Define "cyclic".

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich

Define "cyclic".


The body is not standing still but turn.

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Is there any cyclic body movements in SLT?

Yes - sometimes I do it while using my exercise bike. :D

[Da_Moose]

Define "cyclic".

Good question.


The body is not standing still but turn.

So then, is the body turning with the help of the feet and legs? Or is the body itself rooted and the hips and torso are turning and moving? Can you please elaborate more?

[hunt1]

simple answer. SLT has many small circles. The body is always involved.

[black and blue]

As in Dantien rotation?

Nope... not as far as I know/have heard/read/been shown etc

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by black and blue
As in Dantien rotation?




Dantien rotation?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by hunt1
simple answer. SLT has many small circles. The body is always involved.


Great

[Nick Forrer]

When My Teacher went to Fatshan one of the comments he made about their SLT was how the body is involved in every action. In our WC that is a distinct no- no i.e. we dont move the waist or the shoulders when performing the basic hand actions. If you do this when striking you will be easy (or easier I should say) to off balance. When we want to move we use the lower body to move us. We dont reach with the top half.

[Hendrik]

is the body turning with the help of the feet and legs? --------


help of the feet and legs?




Or is the body itself rooted and the hips and torso are turning and moving? ---------


Body itself rooted?

[Nick Forrer]

'is the body itself rooted and the hips and torso are turning and moving? ---------
Body itself rooted?'

If I understand you right, this one. In the Fatshan SLT demo the legs stay where they are i.e. In YGKYM (That is to say, there is no use of juen ma or turning stance).

So the Shoulders do not stay square on at all times. For e.g. as they do a right tan the right shoulder goes forward and the torso twists to the left- but the stance stays rooted.

This has two main disadvantages

1) If someone were to pull on it (the outstretched limb) they (the guy doing SLT) would fall forward very easily

2) It means the other hand is no longer an equal distance from the target/opponent- they are essentially one handed until they square up again.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
This has two main disadvantages

1) If someone were to pull on it (the outstretched limb) they (the guy doing SLT) would fall forward very easily

2) It means the other hand is no longer an equal distance from the target/opponent- they are essentially one handed until they square up again.



1, this assumtion might be invalid
2, this might be the advantage seems dis-avantages.

[Vajramusti]

Nick- if I understand the most current context-i.e your post- I agree with Hendrik- he is fairly succint here--

If the person's ygkym is well formed - he wont necessarily lose his balance when the outsretched hand is pulled. Of course there is a point where the structure can break down if the pulling is done with great force (models do break down at some point)- if the ygkym person doesnt step. There is the opportunity for adjustment in a live stance.

The other hand is NOT at a disadvantage even though it's a little further back...a coiled spring- ready to explode.

joy chaudhuri
www.tempewingchun.com

ps- anyone see Hero? A thoroughly enjoyable movie.

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Joy

Just to clarify- when you punch someone do you keep your torso (more or less) square on to your opponent i.e. facing or do you turn your torso side on i.e. 90 degress away from your target (like a boxer when jabbing)

If the later how do you reach with the rear hand without first squaring up - as far as i can tell this is anatomically impossible.

Of course I may be misunderstanding what you are saying:)

[Vajramusti]

Nick asks-reply in brackets..

Just to clarify- when you punch someone do you keep your torso (more or less) square on to your opponent i.e. facing or do you turn your torso side on i.e. 90 degress away from your target (like a boxer when jabbing)

((In wing chun -I am square bodied. I dont do slant body wing chun))

If the later how do you reach with the rear hand without first squaring up - as far as i can tell this is anatomically impossible.

((I thought we were talking about ygkym. But to answer your question as you currently phrase.. Even in square bodied position- good wing chun training gives one springy and explosive joints all through the
structure. Gray's anatomy gives a static and dead picture. And if I were really punching- my squared up body will be moving in- firing arrows.))

joy
www.tempewingchun.com

Of course I may be misunderstanding what you are saying
((the context changed from ygkym))

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
I thought we were talking about ygkym.

I am/was - to the extent that all my 'combat stances' retain the fundamental characteristics of my YGKYM - for example where my hands/arms are oriented in relation to my torso. This remains constant whether in YGKYM, Biu Ma, Juen Ma etc. (of course there are some exceptions - e.g. wu sau). Keeping 'square on' - at least in the normal order of things (usual caveats/qualifiers apply), is part of this.


Originally posted by Vajramusti
((In wing chun -I am square bodied. I dont do slant body wing chun))

Understood- the Fatshan WC I am talkin about I would characterise from what I saw of it (again usual caveats apply)) as slant bodied. From the videos I have seen of A Fong I think how we do WC is pretty similar i.e. more or less square bodied.

Two reasons for the square bodied approach (to repeat) are IMO and IME

1) it makes you harder (not impossible) to unbalance if your opponent grabs an outstretched limb - of course yes other factors come into play, there are recovery strategies etc.

2) both hands are an equal distance from the target - allowing for simultaneous attatck and defence and faster recycling of punches amongst other things.

[Hendrik]

Hello Joy,


If the person's ygkym is well formed - he wont necessarily lose his balance when the outsretched hand is pulled. Of course there is a point where the structure can break down if the pulling is done with great force (models do break down at some point)- if the ygkym person doesnt step. There is the opportunity for adjustment in a live stance. -------


True.

According to SLT teaching by Yik Kam, it is not about what stance one uses or how it turns, square body, slant body, spining body....etc. stance means to be alive and transform.
as for lose balance....
It is more about avoid get into "BROKEN ARROW" state.






The other hand is NOT at a disadvantage even though it's a little further back...a coiled spring- ready to explode. -------


Yup, same distance arm has its application, a long and a short arm combination has its application, both short arms.... ...even one wrap up at elbow range and the other has a full range combination......etc. Same with in term of power generation too.....

The point is to keep things flow and alive. Not about measuring are they equal lenght? And ofcorse there are pully, coil spring, section dis--engagement.... all sort of power generation.....





ps- anyone see Hero? A thoroughly enjoyable movie. ----------


Yup, pretty Zen. The most advance sword is when there is no sword in the heart.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by hunt1
simple answer. SLT has many small circles. The body is always involved.


Interesting comment, could you elaborate?

[Da_Moose]

help of the feet and legs?

I guess I wasnt clear enough. When you were asked to define cyclic, you said this:

"The body is not standing still but turn."

So then, my question was/is do the feet and legs move in anyway to help the body turn? For example, do you pick your feet up and step with them? Do you shuffle with them?

Perhaps you could further clarify/detail your initial answer so everyone's on the same basic page as you for this discussion?


Body itself rooted?

Or in this case, is the body rooted in YJKYM (no leg movement) and the body movements are isolated to the up and down of the legs and the ability to rotate with the knees and torso, as well as the front and back movement of the hips?


1) If someone were to pull on it (the outstretched limb) they (the guy doing SLT) would fall forward very easily

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the energy in your arm. if your arm is limp (no muscular energy in it), you won't move too much, if at all, from your initial horse position.


2) It means the other hand is no longer an equal distance from the target/opponent- they are essentially one handed until they square up again.

This depends on how far you turn. If you turn 90 degrees, yes, you're long and short armed. If you turn 45 degrees or less, you can still reach to the same basic point effectively enough with both hands.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose



Or in this case, is the body rooted in YJKYM (no leg movement) and the body movements are isolated to the up and down of the legs and the ability to rotate with the knees and torso, as well as the front and back movement of the hips?



.


what do you mean?

[Da_Moose]

Hendrik,

Exactly what I said is what I mean. The legs bend at the knee, and go up and down. The hips move front to back (butt thrusts back then the plevis thrusts forward). The torso rotates left and right. Not exactly rocket science, pretty straight forward.

Now, maybe you could further describe what you mean by:

"The body is not standing still but turn."

so that everyone can partake of a productive discussion beased on your initial question. I do presume that you posed it to us to stimulate some kind of talk, yes?

Or are you just being asinine right now? Or maybe playing at being an Ignoranus?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Da_Moose


1, Exactly what I said is what I mean. The legs bend at the knee, and go up and down. The hips move front to back (butt thrusts back then the plevis thrusts forward). The torso rotates left and right. Not exactly rocket science, pretty straight forward.



2, Or are you just being asinine right now? Or maybe playing at being an Ignoranus?


1, Thanks for your illustration. What do you mean by --The legs bend at the knee, and go up and down. What go up and down? the body rooted in YJKYM (no leg movement)?

2, leave the personal emotion aside.
You can always choose to not answer if you dont want to.

[hunt1]

Interesting comment, could you elaborate

What type of joints does the human body consist of? Is the correct way to do things the way that is consistent with human anatomy or in a way that is opposed to it? The vast majority of wing chun is performed in ways not consistent with the human body. This is why some say keep elbow bent because if you straighten the punch you will damage you elbow( Only true if you punch incorrectly). Always hear about keep shoulders down. This is wrong . You do not need to keep the shoulder down nor can you. If you move the arm correctly the arm stays in the shoulder socket hence no rise. If you learn the correct basic punch and apply what you learn to the whole body you will understand everything.

[AmanuJRY]

hunt1,

I agree partially with what your saying, but;


Originally posted by hunt1
The vast majority of wing chun is performed in ways not consistent with the human body.

I think this is an overstatement. At least, state your experience for being able to sum up the 'vast majority' of WC. How many different instructors of how many different liniages have you studied with?



Originally posted by hunt1
Always hear about keep shoulders down. This is wrong . You do not need to keep the shoulder down nor can you. If you move the arm correctly the arm stays in the shoulder socket hence no rise.

This is a little confusing. Are you saying let the soulders rise? or, if you are doing the technique (let's say, bong sau) correctly, the shoulder will not rise?


Furthur more, you didn't elaborate on 'cyclic movements' in particular. How about stating some of the 'small circles' you say are present in SNT.

[hunt1]

This is a little confusing. Are you saying let the soulders rise? or, if you are doing the technique (let's say, bong sau) correctly, the shoulder will not rise

Done right will not rise however this is a very hard thing to learn.
We have spent so much time playing football,lifting weights etc that we have trained our bodies to rely on the arms and upper body strength. This has to be unlearned to do wing chun as it was designed. Most just try to remodel the house,all the posts on boxing /jkd footwork etc etc are examples,rather than tear down the house and rebuild.


Furthur more, you didn't elaborate on 'cyclic movements' in particular. How about stating some of the 'small circles' you say are present in SNT.

I think things have more effect if I point you in the direction but you learn the answer for yourself. I say something that goes against what you have been taught and our nature is to oppose.
You learn it foryourself and you will understand it.

Our body is made up of ball and socket joints not piston joints. we are not designed to move in a staight line. All movements done properly have to have a circular nature based on our anatomy. The fact that 99% of us were taught to move the fist to our center and then punch straight forward is evidence enough that most wing chun is taught and done wrong..

I wont bore you with my wing chun background, you can PM me for details but I have been exposed to most of the major Yip Man versions through numerous teachers or touching hands.

[Da_Moose]

1, Thanks for your illustration. What do you mean by --The legs bend at the knee, and go up and down. What go up and down? the body rooted in YJKYM (no leg movement)?

You're welcome. Before I answer your question, why don't you please answer mine for a change?

"The body is not standing still but turn." can you elaborate more on this statement so as to put us all on the same page? if you unable to do so, just bloody well say so and quit jerking people around.

2, leave the personal emotion aside.
You can always choose to not answer if you dont want to.

Wasn't being personal, was just asking a question in a direct manner. Personal for me would have included some 'colorul metaphors,' to quote Mr. Spock. I simply grow tired of these threads you begin but don't actively contribute to with your own input.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by hunt1
Done right will not rise however this is a very hard thing to learn.

I agree....but then, this begs the question; how do you explain that to a person, with average intelligence, without eventually coming to the point of telling them 'the shoulder does not rise'?

I have been in this position, and explained with all the metaphors and analogies that I knew, and it was easier to say 'the shoulder stays rooted' and let them 'learn the answer for yourself'.



Originally posted by hunt1
I think things have more effect if I point you in the direction but you learn the answer for yourself. I say something that goes against what you have been taught and our nature is to oppose.
You learn it foryourself and you will understand it.

We all learn in our own way. How do you know that my recieving a solid reply to an honest question is not my way of learning? Perhaps you underestimate my ability to comprehend, or overestimate it, or perhaps you don't understand your own concept well enough to describe it. I don't oppose any theory or concept, I just rationalize all of them.



Originally posted by hunt1
Our body is made up of ball and socket joints not piston joints. we are not designed to move in a staight line. All movements done properly have to have a circular nature based on our anatomy.

True, but a limited view. The tendons and ligaments within most of the joints in our body are able to sustain 'straight' movements (i.e. the elbow can 'stretch' in a straight line) without damage. Thus, in actions like a punch, or faak sau travel a straight line, extending joints within tolerance and without damage. Were these actions to have a circular form in the elbow joint, it would cause serious and painful injury to the elbow. Anyone who has done a WC punch wrong would know this.



Originally posted by hunt1
The fact that 99% of us were taught to move the fist to our center and then punch straight forward is evidence enough that most wing chun is taught and done wrong..

I whole-heartedly disagree with this. See above.



Originally posted by hunt1
I wont bore you with my wing chun background, you can PM me for details but I have been exposed to most of the major Yip Man versions through numerous teachers or touching hands.

No need, I don't want to enter a ****ing contest about who learned what from who. The important thing is what you walk away with. I have only touched hands with a few 'sects' of the Ip Man WC family and have only viewed video of any of the other families and branches. But, my undersanding and approch, is from the perspective of appropriate body mechanics.

[planetwc]

Of course SLT has circular motions and circular energy.

The Bong Sau is rotational.
The huen sao is rotational.
Chung Choy is rotational.

Much of the energy could be viewed externally as piston like, with say the last three punches, but the elbow obviously has circular movement.

Additionally, there is simply moving one's intent up and down, forward and back. Within those linear movements there are circles.

As to the structure of the stance, it should be alive right?
We aren't statues, we adjust to our surroundings and to the distribution and generation of energy. Heck your breathing and blood circulation are circular.

In some cases the movements in SLT will describe arcs which are partial circles at various angles.

Now all of that is nice to know, but does it move you further down the path of developing your fighting ability and attributes?

[hunt1]

planetwc- It makes an huge difference in fighting ability. If you really tear the house down and rebuild. How does a smaller weaker woman beat a bigger stronger man? Not via tendon power,not through the ability of the body to sustain the damage of incorrect movements for a long period of time(years and years in some cases). Not by speed. Not my muscle power. She only wins if she makes complete use of the bodies natural strengths i.e. the basic skeleton.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by hunt1
The fact that 99% of us were taught to move the fist to our center and then punch straight forward is evidence enough that most wing chun is taught and done wrong..

Seriously?
I thought that bringing the fist to the center is a pretty effective method of training the elbow to support the punch, and be inline with our frame. By the time we've reached BJ, in the version I learned we punch directly from the chamber position of the form, instead of going to center first. Another progression.

[horserider]

Hunt1- I read your posts find them interesting so I go back and search more. You say you have many Sifu.
Who was your main teacher? He obviously taught you the full Wing Chun. Was not from Yip family was it.

You should know better than to post what you do. You were given gift. Why give to those not ready or deserving?

I send you PM!

[anerlich]

Why give to those not ready or deserving?

Oh, please, give it up. :rolleyes:


You should know better than to post what you do.

Maybe you should take your own advice

[hunt1]

Burnsypoo - seriously, dont take my word for it. Find a full size skeleton,( in a medical supply showroom,high school biology classroom,etc) and move the arm the way you were taught to punch. Do the joints fit together,do they rub are they seperated? Things will be self evident

[hunt1]

Horserider,when I first came to this forum there was a great deal of true sharing. You could actually learn a few new things or methods. Unfortunatly in the last couple of years it has become another WCML with all those from that list either continuing their fights here or posting with the same I know best attitude.

I post things with the view to share. To many things in wing chun have been held back or handed out sparingly.

Thank you for the information you shared with me.
You should post using your real name and wing chun family. You could open many eyes. There could be little debate about your wing chun and we all could benefit from your knowledge.