You Will Submit!

[Meat Shake]

your answers to this thread, that is.
:D

This, my friends, is meat shakes big nasty list of submissions. Please list a couple of your favorite submissions, and what position is needed to best apply said submission. If you have any links to pictures, that would be great too. BJJ, Greco Roman, Judo, doesnt matter. Im interested to see any and all submissions.

[ShaolinTiger00]

lol @ the elusive greco-roman submission...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

good ol' fashoned ankle lock, cause from what i have heard bjj guys generaly dont do them. i might be wrong about that, but ill refuse to believe otherwise even when confronted with proof to the contrary.

im not sure how to best get them locked in as i am a kung fu guy, and as such i am above rolling around on the dirty ground like dogs or naceys.

[Aaron Little]

Favorite Submission?

Vale Tudo = Tap out to strikes from mount or inside the guard

Submission Wrestling with or without gi = Teabag Kimura from the top or Arm bar from the bottom

Just playing around in class my favorite submission is conditioning. It is awesome to force someone to tap out due to exhaustion.

[rubthebuddha]

pillow lock. can't find any pictures and i don't know it by any other names, but it's fun as hell, easy to manipulate someone when holding it, and i'm strong enough to pop someone's head like a pimple if need be. :D

[norther practitioner]

Mine has to be ko ;) erm, maybe the canopener... just 'cause.

[ShaolinTiger00]

i might be wrong about that,

You're very wrong.

-bjj guy

[Water Dragon]

Straight armbar from guard, mount, or crossmount.

[Lee Jun Fan]

Submissions are gay. Fight shouldnt hit the ground if your good enough. Maybe stop takedown with a good knee or palm strike to the face.

[SevenStar]

kimura - from practically any position.

[Lee Jun Fan]

ghg

[rubthebuddha]

LJF -- you're obviously ignoring your private messages, so i'll say it here:

refrain from insulting another art or person, or you'll be banned.

[yenhoi]

Triangle, from many positions.

Rear Naked from rear mount.

:eek:

[FatherDog]

Arm triangle - from anywhere.
Achilles lock - from anywhere
Guillotine - from **** near anywhere

[rubthebuddha]

anyone know what a proper name for a pillow lock would be?

basically, your right leg is facing their right leg, their right arm is above your right shoulder and your arms are around their head, squeezing and squeezing like you were hugging a pillow ... a pillow that you were really ****ed off at.

[Water Dragon]

Sounds like an arm Triangle rubby.

[ShaolinTiger00]

arm triangle, kata gatame, shoulder choke (http://web1.vattnet.com/judo/katamewaza/katagatame.html)

[Neckbones]

The DDT followed by a camel clutch. :rolleyes:

[Meat Shake]

Fear the camel clutch!!!!!

lofl.... It really is a neck lock, ya know. ;)

Ive been working on omoplata, and I almost get it all the time, yet to successfully pull it off though.... everytime I try for it, I get stuck on my back before i can set the lock. I always have trouble rolling all the way to a sitting position. (Ive been using it from being on my back having someone in my guard.)

[ShaolinTiger00]

sounds like too much friction with the mat. lift your head and shoulders off the mat and make sure you're pushing off his opposite hip or the floor with your outside foot.

[Chang Style Novice]

How times have changed. When I was a kid, an oompaloompa was a freaky midget indentured servant in Willie Wonka's factory.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

shaolintiger .... in all seriousness i thought any leg locks were kinda frowned upon in bjj. a buddy at work told me that a while back and i didnt believe him, so i posted here and a bunch of people confirmed it.

[Aaron Little]

GunnedDownAtrocity,
Some BJJ schools may practice them more than others but pretty much every BJJ black belt I have ever had the privilege of working with has used them. In my classes they are used with the same degree of importance as any other submission.

[rubthebuddha]

WD -- that's the one. i usually get it standing up first, typically by slipping a punch on the outside, but sometimes i get it when already on the ground.

[Meat Shake]

Yup.
Leg locks work great.
The only problem with ankle locks however, is that the pain doesnt happen until your ankle is broken, so if you are waiting for pain to submit.... You wont be walking on that ankle for a few weeks. I dont use ankle locks in sparring for that exact reason, and Ive gotten close to breaking ankles a couple of times... Had one pop, havent used an ankle lock since. A submission isnt worth losing one of the 3 people I have to train with.

ST - Ive been using omoplata from having someone in my guard, while im on my back... I usually go for their right arm. I basically just grab and roll, grabbing and trapping their tricep/elbow on the way... the problem, is that I keep getting stuck on my waist, like a turtle on its back. During the roll, the bend in my back makes an angle at my waiste, and thats where I get stuck. I roll then wind up unable to roll the rest of the way, and have to give up the technique halfway through. I apologize if this is a crappy description... Im in and out of doing things at work.

[ShaolinTiger00]

in all seriousness i thought any leg locks were kinda frowned upon in bjj. a buddy at work told me that a while back and i didnt believe him, so i posted here and a bunch of people confirmed it.

here's the thing with leglocks.

1. They can put you in a bad position. - this goes against the general rule of bjj = position then submission. so some say "why risk it?"

2. They can seriously screw up your training partner. esp heel hooks.

BJJ guys (at least smart ones..) practice leg locks, even right out off the bat almost every white-blue belt i know knows a straight ankle lock and the knee bar. which are definately 2 of the most common attacks.

Guys like me who want to play a hard, nasty top game vs, a technical bottom guard game (like teammate Merryprankster) want to work even more with leg attacks vs. the open guard. toe holds, heel hooks, calf crushes. etc.

[Aaron Little]

The link below is for Stephan Kesting's Omoplata and Dynamic Guard video series. It is a great resource covering the ins and outs of the omoplata. Lots of setups/entries and and what to do when they defend your attack. It is a good video.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Omo-Plata-Info.htm

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Meat Shake

ST - Ive been using omoplata from having someone in my guard, while im on my back... I usually go for their right arm. I basically just grab and roll, grabbing and trapping their tricep/elbow on the way... the problem, is that I keep getting stuck on my waist, like a turtle on its back. During the roll, the bend in my back makes an angle at my waiste, and thats where I get stuck. I roll then wind up unable to roll the rest of the way, and have to give up the technique halfway through. I apologize if this is a crappy description... Im in and out of doing things at work.

We don't do leg locks either. The reason being, if you turn the wrong way to escape, you can break your own foot. I have enough to worry about just trying to get my basics down.

On the Omoplata, if you're going for his right arm w/ your left leg, try pushing off his body with your right foot to make a better angle. Also, as soon as possible, you should grab the back of his pants. This will not only stop him from rolling, you can also use it to pull yourself up.

How are you trying to set up your omoplata Bro? I usually get it as a combo off an armbar or a triangle attempt.

*waits patiently for Shaolin Tiger and MP to impart wisdom*

[ShaolinTiger00]

I usually get it as a combo off an armbar or a triangle attempt.

exactly those 3 are the holy trinity of subs from the guard and they just melt into each other.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Yup.
Leg locks work great.
The only problem with ankle locks however, is that the pain doesnt happen until your ankle is broken, so if you are waiting for pain to submit.... That is incorrect. The pain of ankle locks (straight foot locks, achilles locks & figure fours) is usually very severe and can usually be felt before much actual damage occurs. Heel hooks are the ones in which the pain happens after the damage and this is usually in the knee.

[Knifefighter]

It is very rare to submit even moderately experienced people with the omaplata. Because of this, the omaplata is usually followed by a sweep, back into the triangle, or a figure 4 foot lock. Sometimes, if the opponent rolls out, you can catch him with a surprise arm bar or foot lock, depending on whether he rolls under or over.

[Lee Jun Fan]

You cant beat the eye gouge its unstopable. Best submission ever period!

[Knifefighter]

Leg locks were definitely frowned upon in the BJJ community up until five or six years ago. I can remember people booing at tournaments every time someone would attempt a lower body submssion.

[Aaron Little]

ShaolinTiger00
For me personally I typically teach the Armbar, Triangle, and Kimura as the guard Trifecta with the Omoplata coming in fourth as far as percentage of success.

Knifefighter,
I agree completely regarding the pain of ankle locks. A toehold is probably the king of ankle locks and it certainly hurts before there is any damage. It is a great counter to your opponents rolling out of an Omoplata. As far as heel hooks go, if my opponent has it set I will usually just go ahead and tap. I like my knees.

[yenhoi]

We just call pillow locks pillow locks.

One shooto book I have calls them pillow lock 1 and pillow lock 2.

Both are from the scarf position. The opponent can be prone on his back or belly.

I think a couple times Ive heard them called bow and arrow by the likes of Larry Hartsell and Eric Paulson. I might be wrong.

:eek:

[Lee Jun Fan]

Pillow lock sounds extremely dangerous. Please some one show it to me.

[Aaron Little]

It is not dangerous at all. It is a very common move. I hit it most often when my opponent pushes on me when I am holding mount. After setting it up I set off to scarf for the finish.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Lee Jun Fan
You cant beat the eye gouge its unstopable. Best submission ever period! Eye gouges are great. They are effective with a jab to set up power punches and they are great when you are mounted or have someone in your guard; and if your opponent tries to eye jab you back- POW!- instant arm bar. The only problem with them is that they screw up people's eyesight.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Aaron

When I think of the guard in a non striking sense, I usually think of 2 sets of 3 combinations.

triangle, armbar omoplata & kimura, guillotine, hip bump

ironically I prefer sweeps to any submission from the guard, but if the opporitunity is there.. take it..

kf is certainly correct about the old school bjjers frowing upon leglocks, but the times they are a changin. esp with the rise of submission grappling & the blending of judo, sambo, wrestling into mma grappling training.

[ShaolinTiger00]

The only problem with them is that they screw up people's eyesight.

funny thing. last night i took an accidental thumb into my eye. he must have put at least the first whole digit into my eye socket.

It didn't stop me. I completed the throw and got to side control and then blinked me eye a few times and kept going.

after the bell rang, I went to the mirror, flushed it out with water and went back to practice. today my eye is red and puffy but no problems..


just something to think about..

[Water Dragon]

And when he says eye, he means his brown eye :eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

no no.. that is the "third hook" technique.

[Water Dragon]

lol, I think

[Lee Jun Fan]

No I meant eye. But after your coment we see whats on your mind huh?

[Meat Shake]

"The pain of ankle locks (straight foot locks, achilles locks & figure fours"

Im not talking about achilles. Grab your ankle, and bend it to the side. It wont hurt until it breaks. Im not talking about putting pressure on the tendon, Im talking about twisting the foot to break the ankle.

On eye gouges... Ive had the same thing happen ST. It blackens your view in that eye for a second, and is kinda a strange hurting sensation, but not anything to stop a fight.
Not unless you pulled the eye out of the socket....

Ahh..... I hadnt really thought to use the omoplata off of a triangle or armbar. Thanks. We just started heavily rolling again after a much too long break.

Can anyone point me to a picture of a kimura?

[ShaolinTiger00]

google image search is your friend.


Seriously, I think any joint locks that you can apply quickly and effectively is the best.

well.. control is a more important issue than speed. If I've got you mounted or knee on chest or have your back with my hooks in.. I can take my sweet time until you make a mistake because I'm in control..

[Water Dragon]

Kimura = Old School Bully Chicken-Wing Behind the Back Say Uncle Lock.

[ShaolinTiger00]

an example of a kimura from teh bottom of a half guard (http://www.nathanleverton.com/stills/hg01_kimura.jpg)

note that this isn't the ideal position to apply this submission.(usually from the guard, side control or a north-south hold) this was just an example that showed the arm clearly.

[Aaron Little]

I realize that this is the second time I have pointed to this particular website. I do not represent them in any way. I run my own video production business so I guess they are actually a competitor. They do have an informative website though.

The following gives lots of detail on the usage of the kimura.


http://grapplearts.com/Kimura-Article.htm

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Grab your ankle, and bend it to the side. It wont hurt until it breaks. I think you need to work on your foot locks a bit more. There are no foot locks that bend your foot to the side to break the ankle

[Meat Shake]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I think you need to work on your foot locks a bit more. There are no foot locks that bend your foot to the side to break the ankle

*sigh*....
Its an example sweetheart. I dont persay bend it to the side, but I do use locks that bend twist it around. It affects the ankle only in one of the locks I use.
If you havent seen it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I use figure 4 locks all over the body, including the ankle. Theres no point in arguing with me wheather or not it doesnt work, because I f*cking use them. The locks I am talking about do not affect the knee, but rather the ankle. Not the tendon, but will break bones. IT DOES NOT HURT UNTIL THE ANKLE POPS.
This conversation is like:
"I have a headache."
"no you dont, headaches dont hurt."
:o

Maybe Im just superman or something...

Edit : Have you ever rolled your ankle? What happens?
*POP!* .... few seconds later that pain creeps on up... It isnt quite instantaneous, and doesnt hurt before it pops, does it?
Nope. Not unless you have extra sensory perceptive nerve endings.

[LeeCasebolt]

I use figure 4 locks all over the body, including the ankle. Theres no point in arguing with me wheather or not it doesnt work, because I f*cking use them. The locks I am talking about do not affect the knee, but rather the ankle. Not the tendon, but will break bones. IT DOES NOT HURT UNTIL THE ANKLE POPS.

It hurts me.

Maybe you just have a really high tolerance for pain, or flexible ankles? I loves me some toe holds, shinlocks, kneebars - all the leg locks really - but they all hurt.

Or maybe I'm a big *****.

[CaptinPickAxe]

When I roll my ankle badly I'm not cussing because of the pain. Its because of the impending pain I know is going to bare down on me like a ton of bricks.

Maybe Texans are just tougher than the rest, because I've never felt pain the instant I roll my ankle (and yes I have broken my foot like that)

[ShaolinTiger00]

meat shake, I think the submission you are doing is the basic toe hold.

tell me if I'm correct? You're hand is on the top of the foot, perpendicular to the leg with your fingers gripping the side of his foot. You're other hand comes under his shin and the hand grabs the wrist of the first hand?

[Lee Jun Fan]

I personly think subs are gay. and dont train em at all.

[ShaolinTiger00]

I personly think subs are gay. and dont train em at all.


-most often quoted by people who tap out quickly to subs.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Theres no point in arguing with me wheather or not it doesnt work, because I f*cking use them. Wasn't the whole point of your original post that you DON'T use them because they pop before the pain occurs?

[Meat Shake]

Have used them. Whatever.
I dont feel like playing games over semantics.

Edit:
"tell me if I'm correct? You're hand is on the top of the foot, perpendicular to the leg with your fingers gripping the side of his foot. You're other hand comes under his shin and the hand grabs the wrist of the first hand?"

Yup.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
[B"tell me if I'm correct? You're hand is on the top of the foot, perpendicular to the leg with your fingers gripping the side of his foot. You're other hand comes under his shin and the hand grabs the wrist of the first hand?"

Yup. [/B] And if you don’t spar using these ankle locks consistently, you will miss out on what is arguably the most important part of training- developing the ability to instantaneously counter them.

[yenhoi]

I think you should train leglocks et all also.

We have a boatload of leg lockflows.

:eek: