Internal, and grappling in WC

[Katsu Jin Ken]

I have a couple questions actually.

First, do any of your schools have grappling incoorperated into Wing Chun?

Also, does schools try to incoorperate some of the more internal MA type of things into your Wing chun training?

thanks in advance,

[AmanuJRY]

In our group, yes we incorporate grappling into our WC. IMO, it's a range of fighting that is not adaquatly addressed in traditional WC.

Internal training is left to the individual in our group. Most of us have our own experience and methods for internal training, and we don't try to sway each other from our methods, although we will offer advice and information to those who are interested.

[OdderMensch]

No, Our Kwoon does not incorperate grappleing into the WC system. However, our Sifu has showed us Die Tong (ground Fighting tactics) that are in the system already.

I mean, does anyone really think that in 3000 years of fighting, no one ever thought "hey, what if I fall over."

As for internal training, we go into that nearing the end of our training. I've just started touching on it.

[anerlich]

My instructors academy is a TWC school and a Machado BJJ associate school.

Wc has groundfighting, yes, and the forms have grappling applications (which you are unlikely to see unless you spend some serious time with grapplers), but frankly WC groundfighting and grappling is primitive compared to jiu jitsu.

There are plenty of competivie avenues for those who think otherwise to prove to the world that they are right.

We don't claim to be a system of internal martial arts, though my instructor teaches some very basic qigong.

If you want ot fight, learn WC and BJJ. If you want to harness Qi, find someone who teaches and understands that.

IMO each system has its own purposes. A system which advertises, or even actually tries, to encompass combat in all phases and situations, physical culture and health nurturing, and cultural, social, and religious programs ends up doing nothing particularly well.

[OdderMensch]

WC's Ground fighting is likely primitive when compared to more specilizied systems such as BJJ, or just plain JJ (my qualifier is both becuse i do not know BJJ asnd I don't know all of WC)

But it works well for what it does. Primitve, but effective :)

I think a skilled BJJer could likely mop me up if the fight went to the ground, but I'd like to think it would help. I know it's better than what I knew before, that being nothing :)

[sihing]

Just like if a BJJ player were to fight standing up, their standup tech are primitive to WC standup fighting. It's all relative and dependant on what a system specializes in. In actual fights, where you do not know who else may get involved in the fight between you and another, and you are unaware of your environment(like if there is glass on the ground or other objects that may make it uncomfortable to be on the ground), ground fighting is not recommended unless you are forced there(which means you have no idea on how to avoid the take down and such). When your rolling around on the ground with your opponent, his friends may want to get involved, then what?? I'd rather take the one out fast with the WC tech then go from there. I can always run faster while on my feet than on the ground anyday. Not to say that BJJ is not a effective MA or not needed, just IMO it's specialization in fighting on the ground is not realistic when fighting in the unknown environment with unknown opponent/s.

In the system of WC my Sifu teaches we also practice Groundfigthing tech, also from a chair and from kneeling positions too. All the techniques are directly from the WC system, problem is not all can see them there.

James

[namron]

sihing your comment

'ground fighting is not recommended unless you are forced there(which means you have no idea on how to avoid the take down and such).'

is a bit like saying once your hit once you might as throw in the towel. A lot can happen and be done in between being forced to the ground and actually hitting the ground.

Your training for position can have as much to do about escaping the ground game and returning to your feet as g&p or submitting.

Does your kwoon capture this in their ground defense?

When youve just been dumped on the ground, lost all the wind from your sails and are on the bottom of a heavier opponent,who feels like he is crushing the air from your lungs, then you may see where BJJ training (or insert other grappling style here) is advantageous. Either that or you better have one hell of an inch strike cause thats about all the room (or less) that you'll have left.

[namron]

Our school currently does not (adequately) cover the grappling range IMO.

This is something I'm hoping to eventually change.

Our instructor is enlightened as to the benifit of grappling and we have had some sporadic seminars from guest instructors, looking at ways to introduce more standing grappling and basic ground defense and position.

I have covered a little ground in BJJ but i am still a too green to be passing on my knowledge during classes in our school.

Going down that track will probably also require a separate timetable as grappling is not everyones gravy. Also a decent gi and mats become prerequisite.

I think anerlich's school definitely have he goods here.

Wrt internal, our sifu teaches a number of Tai chi styles but this is mainly outside of the normal curriculum.

[kj]

I can't help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.

Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.

Regards,
- kj

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by kj
I can't help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.

Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.

Regards,
- kj


They might, but I doubt it would be with as much respect.;)

[sihing]

Very good question KJ. And I agree with AmanuJRY comment, "and probably with not much respect". A couple of my problems with things on this forum is that it's always emphasized that the likelihood of ending up on the ground is high, and the what if questions like namron's situation. Well WHAT IF I knock him out first or eliminate his chance at getting me on the ground? Is that a impossibility? I'd rather not think at all about my opponent and his actions or the outcome of a confrontation but rather let my training and reflexes do the talking, to which I am quite confident in. The only time it should be of concern is when it is done with surprise, like when you are tackled from behind, a sucker rush I guess. But the same thing can apply to the grappler getting sucker punched, funny thing is I never see questions or situation like that on the BJJ forum arise or asked. And also it is not guaranteed that when the two of you are on the ground that you as the inexperienced ground fighter will automatically lose because the opponent has BJJ or other ground fighting experience. Fighting is also allot about heart and will.

I think it is smart to be aware of these arts and know the strategy and tactics of what they do. Every skilled practitioner of any MA is dangerous. Like every MA some of the BJJ people are highly skilled practitioners and should be respected absolutely, but we should not be afraid of them or their techniques, unless you decide to play their game when in a confrontation.

Namron:
Yes our kwoon incorporates escaping the ground game and also fighting while mounted and escapes from there. When I teach I like to emphasize that ultimately you do not want to continually be punching your opponent while standing up, chasing them down the floor, and that you should eventually lead them to the ground and continue your attack/punch/joint lock whatever there. The opponent has much more opportunity to escape and run away to come back and try again while he/she is standing up. The key word here is "lead".

James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by kj
I can't help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.

Just my idle curiosity. Back to your discussion.

Regards,
- kj

I think if they would have had this forum in the 1950's in Hong Kong then the topic of discussion might have been how can Wing Chun beat up the Choy Li Fut people (who think they are better fighters).

If Wing Chun people in Thailand had a forum then the discussing would probably revolve around how to beat the Thai boxers.

BJJ rarely see WC people so we wouldn't be of much interest to them.

Before Eastern martial arts became popular there was always the discussion of whether a wrestler could beat a boxer or a boxer could beat a wrestler. Neither camp probably spent much time studying eah other's arts (no time for that if you want to excel in your art). Just the man in the street would talk about this in the bar with his buddies.

There is plenty to learn and master in Wing Chun for most people. However some people are talented enough and have enough time to master several arts.

A lot of great masters of old mastered a few arts.

I think there is still benefit to classical martial arts training such as Aikido where the question of dealing with BJJ or WC just never comes up.

If the Wing Chun story about the art being derived from a snake and a crane are true, then Wing Chun should have some highly evolved grappling skills coming from the snake part of the art (Boa Constrictor).

[Katsu Jin Ken]

IMO Wing chun does have highly evolved grappling skills. I think it is just that most WC "sifus" dont understand or know how to use it. My sifu has told me and shown some of the grappling that can be used in WC but it is very hard for me to show in text. I can try if anyone desires to hear more.

just my opinon

[Shadowboxer]

Go ahead and give it a shot.

[anerlich]

What Shadowboxer said, as I did earlier.


I can't help but wonder if Wing Chun is discussed on BJJ forums as much as BJJ is discussed here.

Not as much, but almost always as a straw man art that only the clueless have any interest in.


I can try if anyone desires to hear more.

After implying that most people's Sifu's are apparently clueless on the subject, you'd better put your money where your mouth is.

[Tydive]

Let me preface this by saying that my only knowledge of WC is what I have seen in books and on the web. However, I do have a fairly good background in Aikido, Kenpo and street fighting.

From what I have seen of WC most of your strikes/blocks position you very well to apply joint locks. It would be pretty simple to extend the soft block into a lock, arm bar, throw etc... Now this may not be "Wing Chun" but it seems like a natural extension of the forms I have seen (and a big part of why WC is going to be my next MA).

Footwork & being properly centered can negate a grapplers advantages, but like the other poster said it comes down to the "boxer vs wrestler" debate which is a total waste of time. I have seen people go down under light jabs and seen people who keep going even after having bones broken or dislocated joints. You never know, so play your game and maintain control.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

i wasnt trying to imply anything. Just simply saying that most of the WC schools dont look at the grappling aspect of fighting. Heck i even went to one really traditional school that told me they dont do lap sau because its to much like a grappling hold. Thats fine if thats what works for you, but i want to be able to hold my own in all ranges of fighting.

as far as examples, just take a closer look at the moves. A irmi naga (japanese aikido throw) can be easily modified and done with a lateral lap sau, sweeping step (i dont know the name of it its at the beginning of the chum kiu form) and a jun sau.

[anerlich]

as far as examples, just take a closer look at the moves. A irmi naga (japanese aikido throw) can be easily modified and done with a lateral lap sau, sweeping step (i dont know the name of it its at the beginning of the chum kiu form) and a jun sau.

That's it?

you can draw the following applications from SLT:

collar choke, rear naked choke, guillotine, 1/2 nelson lapel choke
a number of arm locks and entanglements, responses to throat and lapel grabs, etc.
neck manipulation throws
major and minor outer reaping throws

from CK:

Cutting armbars
several neck manipulation throws

BJ

shoulder throw
bearhug escape
takedown defense (though pretty woeful)
breakfalls

just off the top of my head.

Get your Sifu to show you - you said he knows them all ...

[Katsu Jin Ken]

rereading i may have sounded like i was trying to get into one of those "my teacher is better than yours because of ______" discussion, which i wasnt. Sorry if i came across like that. Anerlich, those are some good ideas from SLT, you have anymore grappling and throwing applications you can think of?

[OdderMensch]

how is this as a take down defense.

Assumeing you predict the takedown (can't defend it if you don't know it's happening) use the gum sau pinning motion from the end of chum kui. Aim it at the neck/shoulders of the incoming grappler. use the resulting power arc to swing your forward leg (presumably the one he is going for) away and move your body out of reach useing "toi ma" (implied in CK, shown properly in the batt jam dao) Now if the grappler has commited himself to the takedown, push down and use the Kwai sutt motion (implied in SLT) to put him down, and leave your self on top, ready to pummel.

This is much better described in my Sifu's tape "grappler beating basics"

Is this defense woefull? if so why?

[AmanuJRY]

OdderMensch,

I like your description (I have practiced that very one), but I have to say it's related to a specific kind of takedown and won't work for other different takedowns.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by OdderMensch
how is this as a take down defense. I give it an A+. :D

Justin, You're correct, of course. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. However, in the context with which it was described it fits my experience...... not that that makes it right.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Matrix
I give it an A+. :D

Justin, You're correct, of course. There is no one-size-fits-all solution. However, in the context with which it was described it fits my experience...... not that that makes it right.


What takedowns have occured in your experience? What techniques were effective?

(I'm not picking a fight here, I think this can lead to some pertinent info.....but you know that.:D )

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
What takedowns have occured in your experience? What techniques were effective? Maybe I should have said "very limited" experience. Mostly just single-leg and double-leg takedowns - nothing special. I know there are many others, but I need to work those. I'm still crawling over here, don't ask me to run. ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Understandable.:)

For future referance, and I encourage you to play around with this, the described technique doesn't work so well against a tackle/bearhug, most headlocks, and other 'upper body' grabs.

Against leg takedowns, the described technique is effective to a relative degree. I have had a person with high-school level wrestling ability blast through it though. But moving the target leg is the crux, just be ready to move the other leg right after as it will be the next target.

[OdderMensch]

yes, this is to defend against what I generally hear called a "single/double" leg takedown, or a tackle, whats the old saying, one thousand moves, one thousand counters.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
For future referance, and I encourage you to play around with this, the described technique doesn't work so well against a tackle/bearhug, most headlocks, and other 'upper body' grabs. Justin,
That's the plan, man.
Thanks,

[anerlich]

Assumeing you predict the takedown (can't defend it if you don't know it's happening) use the gum sau pinning motion from the end of chum kui. Aim it at the neck/shoulders of the incoming grappler. use the resulting power arc to swing your forward leg (presumably the one he is going for) away and move your body out of reach useing "toi ma" (implied in CK, shown properly in the batt jam dao) Now if the grappler has commited himself to the takedown, push down and use the Kwai sutt motion (implied in SLT) to put him down, and leave your self on top, ready to pummel.

This could work against a high single leg or a double, but you won't even be able to reach someone doing a proper low ankle shoot with the gum sau. Even if you circle the leg back, he will go for the other one right away, and it's right there because you had to plant on it to step back.

Most WC "grappling defenses" seem to rely on the takedown artist coming in at a descending angle like a rugby tackle, when in fact they are best done from close in, and AFTER dropping levels.

For my money the sprawl is simpler, more effective, and requires less accuracy ... if the "not invented in WC" stigma means more to you than real effectiveness, fine, but there's no place in WC hell for students who took the comparitively short amount if time it takes to learn to sprawl. And you don't have to stay down there, you can get straight back up!

[sihing]

Anerlich,
I have two questions. Since your Sifu has began studying BJJ has he seen counters to the techniques he has learned in BJJ, utilizing WC techniques, or has he realized that to learn the counter to these techniques one has to be a practitioner of BJJ. Also does he use WC in his BJJ when he is sparring during his BJJ training sessions? I would imagine as one starts to learn another system of MA, especially one that is somewhat different in terms of emphasizes, we would at times compare it to there previous teachings and experience and using that knowledge sometimes try to figure out counters to the new techniques being learned.


James

[Matrix]

James,

Great questions!!....
I am VERY interested in the response.

Peace,

[anerlich]

Since your Sifu has began studying BJJ has he seen counters to the techniques he has learned in BJJ, utilizing WC techniques, or has he realized that to learn the counter to these techniques one has to be a practitioner of BJJ.

Jeez, James, I can actually think for myself, I've been doing MA even longer than you and your four red stripes, not that it's a race. I don't need my Sifu's verification all the time, though I do appreciate it when given.

To see two styles as being used to counter one another is illusory. It's more like in the arm bar from the guard, you see fuk sao, huen sao, gum sao. And in the WC forms you see, ah, there's the collar choke, the half nelso lapel, the gullotine, the arm drag go behind, etc. etc.

It would be an interesting exercise to play around with countering "BJJ techniques" with "WC techniques, but:

The BJJ guys and other grapplers have been countering this stuff day after day after day for decades ... they've already done the hard work - and the testing! - for us.

The two arts are actually fairly complementary, and, no doubt to the shock and horror of purists with rice bowls to protect (not pointing fingers) can flow one into the other quite well.

Both develop and require excellent tactile sensitivity, both have a centreline principle, both look at using the opponents force agianst him, leverage instead of strength, tactics instead of raw power, using all four limbs independently yet in concert, etc etc etc... To try and keep them too separate is to restrict your ability to learn either or both arts.

WC has a traditional core, forms, the dummy, principles, phases of combat, chi sao etc.... but in practice it can extend itself and evolve through contact and influence with the rest ... and indeed must if it is to retain relevance in changing times. Why are people so afraid of learning new things?

Build bridges, not walls.

We have more fun than we did as members of the WWCKFA, and I think we're more competent for it.. And our gis and patches are heaps cooler ....

[t_niehoff]

Great post, Andrew.

Regards,

Terence

[sihing]

Yes, good post Anerlich. Sorry for not asking you directly, as a matter of fact I was just thinking about that and was going to edit my post to ask you directly what your thoughts were on the two arts, hopefully before you had responded, but too late.

My only exposure to BJJ has only been through watching Royce Gracie in the UFC and on some instructional footage I downloaded. Even before viewing the instructional footage I could tell that GJJ was a very technical and sophisticated art similar to WC in many ways. I respected Royce allot just for the facts that he was actually using his art in combat, instead of just doing whatever comes out like most of the combatants did back in the earlier UFC's. After viewing the instructional video I saw a resembelance between GJJ and WC, not necessarily in technique but in principals and concepts, virtually to me GJJ is WC on the ground in allot of ways.

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
The two arts are actually fairly complementary, and, no doubt to the shock and horror of purists with rice bowls to protect (not pointing fingers) can flow one into the other quite well. I have heard this before, and I think it's great. This consistency of some of the core principles makes it very appealing to me.


And our gis and patches are heaps cooler .... Man, you're always bragging about your patches... ;)

To paraphrase the line from the movie "The Three Amigos"....
Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches!
He says as he runs off to find some cool patches on-line. :D

Peace,

[anerlich]

Just a point to illustrate what I mean about "WC counters to BJJ":

You mentioned on another thread, James, that to your mind The rear naked choke from the back where the guy behind you has has hooks inside your legs looked impossible to escape. To a person unfamiliar with this position (and I mean that on a training level, not just having looked at a few pictures - that is not meant to be insulting, just a statement of experience), it certainly looks like Game Over.

However, there are a number of escapes from here. Here is just one:

http://www.bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/escapeback/

Though many feel this has been improved on over time. You'll note that the text points out the inherent risks one must watch against during the various transitions, things that you'd never notice without experience, and without an experienced training partner who knows those weaknesses and how/when to exploit them.

It really isn't that hard against someone about your size, strength, and competence. Once you get your shoulders on the ground, he basically cannot choke you any more from that position. I'd say I can escape this position 90% of the time against people of similar experience to myself, and I still manage about 70% against a purple belt I train with who is 10 kilos heavier and MUCH stronger than I - though, while I escape the choke, I usually end up mounted, which is not good but still a (slightly) better option than where I was. From there, I work defense and mount escapes and steadily improve my position (or try to).

I'd imagine any decent black belt would have me choked out within ten seconds if that's what he wanted, though, so it's always relative.

As with anything the best defense is always "don't get caught there." But it's an enormous relief to realise that even from the worst possible positions that there are still options.

Maybe with our "vast WC experience" we could work out effective counters as well. But how much trial and error would that take? Generally the people that do something the best, also understand its weaknesses and how best to overcome or neutralise it.

[Gangsterfist]

I think chin na just comes as a natural progession in your training. I know in the past when sparring or in chi sao I have grappled people, but only if the opportunity arises. Grappling in wing chun does exist, you can use a bong sao to chin na someone. It all depends on your training and your intent. If you are trying to subdue an opponet rather than just straight up hurt them then chin na might be the answer. The more you train the more naturally it will come to you. I was once told by some friends of mine who have been studying for nearly 20 years that in the end you will learn to control someone with the least amount of effort. That is what shows high skill level. I can't think of this guys name, but somebody was famous for this. He could apparently control people with two fingers. He could grapple you and through training and sensitivity he could control you and chin na you with only using one finger from each hand. He had trained all his life to get there.

I will have to ask my friends who this guy was so I can post his name because it escapes me right now.

As for ground fighting IMHO its about the same. The more training you have on the ground the more natural it will come to you. Jiujitsu uses body structure just like wing chun (not in the same exact sense though). Your body is naturally stronger and weaker in certain positions. Just practice hard and eventually it will come natural to you. In a real fight a lot of times the fight is pretty much over pretty quick (or at least in my experiences) and the victor usually starts winning with in a matter of seconds. Ofcourse this will not always be the case.

Its not a matter of cross training, or studying other martial arts. Its a matter of hard work, and building attributes. Not all attributes have to be physical either. There is sensitivity, relaxation, knowing your body and use it structurely, knowing how to take hits, knowing how to get out of chin na (like going towards the thumb, posting, dropping weight, sprawling, etc etc). A lot of it has to do with knowledge, and knowing what you are able to do and not able to do and to be effecient. If you contstantly worry about one or two different arts, whats gonna happen if you go against a white crane boxer, or a choy li fut guy? You spent too much time worrying about BJJ and not training your attributes to be adaptive and now you gotta deal with someone completely different.

Just set some goals for yourself. Start off small and once you reach those expand, and keep expanding until you can reach 10 times your original goal and keep expanding off that. You will never stop learning. The application of wing chun "in theory" is limitless. There is no such thing as instant kung fu, you must work hard to get results.

If you are that interested in BJJ, then go to a school talk to some guys and see if you can't set up some work outs. I am sure a lot of them would want to improve their stand up and you could improve your ground game. Work out with them and exchange ideas and keep an open mind. You can also make some new friends this way, and sometiems thats what its really all about.

[anerlich]

whats gonna happen if you go against a white crane boxer, or a choy li fut guy

The first art I studied was a eclectic system of Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, and Northern Sil Lum. It also includes a crane form. No problems there for me.


Just practice hard and eventually it will come natural to you.

Practice the best techniques and priciples (including those of attribute development) from experts in the particular areas, it will come natural to you a lot quicker.

.
A lot of it has to do with knowledge, and knowing what you are able to do and not able to do and to be effecient.

My point exactly. Multiple sources of knowledge will on average result in better quality.


Jiujitsu uses body structure just like wing chun (not in the same exact sense though).

Efficient use of the body goes beyond stylistic boundaries. In what sense are they different? and if they are, wouldn't learning both, rather than making one do the work of two, and perhaps not that well, be a sensible course?

[sihing]

Thanks for the clip Anerlich. All movements can be countered but it has to be done within a certain range of time. Like the two of us said I guess it's better to not get in that position at all...

James

[Tydive]

Originally posted by Matrix
To paraphrase the line from the movie "The Three Amigos"....
Patches? We don't need no stinkin' patches!
He says as he runs off to find some cool patches on-line. :D

That was from Blazing Saddles... In the bad guy recruitment line. Although both movies rock.n :)

[Matrix]

Ty,

I stand corrected.
Thanks.

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by Tydive
That was from Blazing Saddles... In the bad guy recruitment line. Although both movies rock.n :)


"Badges, to god-d@mned hell with badges! We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-d@mned cabron and ching' tu madre! Come out there from that sh!t-hole of yours. I have to speak to you." - excerpted from the book, The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0809001608/ref%3Dase%5Fdarrylshomepag0d/102-1482553-5164943), by B. Traven. 1935

[Gangsterfist]

Anerlich-

I was making a comment about how people get all worried about grappling and then spend too much time learning to counter it when they should just shut up and train. Next thing you know they see a good Choy Li Fut guy and think, oh my how do I counter this.

When I was referring to structure and how both systems used it but it was different, I was referring to theory. In theory stand up and ground will be different. Way different with centerline theory (because you are no longer on your feet, where is the center?), all foot work theory can be thrown out the door on the ground, and there is plenty of other stuff.

The similarities are there too. Both want to control the opponet with the least amount of effort with the biggest pay offs. Controlling can be sticking, trapping, chin na, body positioning, etc etc.

I guess one point I am trying to make here is sometimes you have to be less theory and more action. Talking about something and studying is one thing, but to get hands on live training is totally another. Both are important don't get me wrong, but all theory and no action yields lesser valued results.

[anerlich]

because you are no longer on your feet, where is the center?

Why do you think it suddenly vanishes?

Where it always was. Your feet now protect it as well as your arms. You occupy the path so your opp has to take the longer route to pass your guard (which, appearances aside, serves the same function in BJJ as it does in WC or boxing - or choy li fut - unless you haven't put in the hours to see it). When under side control or mount you need to regain control of the centreline again.

You might see fundamental differences rather than similarities ... but that's a matter of choice and attitude on your part.

To say you can make WC work on the ground without being able to understand or employ what is arguably the most fundamental of its principles there will, I suggest, be VERY DIFFICULT.

BJJ will help you understand WC principles better .. and so will studying other arts.


I was making a comment about how people get all worried about grappling and then spend too much time learning to counter it when they should just shut up and train.

I'm not worried. Am I one of these "people"? If not me, then who, specifically? When did "learning to counter grappling" become something other than training? Are you trying to tell me my priorities are wrong? You are in no position to make such judgements.


Talking about something and studying is one thing, but to get hands on live training is totally another. Both are important don't get me wrong, but all theory and no action yields lesser valued results.

Couldn't agree more. My grappling (which includes counter-grappling) *is* live training rather than talking and theorizing. I rolled for half an hour this morning before work. I've got principles, a curriculum, and the counsel of experts in the discipline. Plus I have the centreline principle on the floor. Can you say the same?

[Gangsterfist]

Anerlich-

I agree pretty much with what you said. I am familiar with how the center line theory changes on the ground we have gone over it many times in previous classes. I was posing the question to get others to think of how it adapts and trying to spark a discussion. Seems lately a lot of posts have been personal attacks. A lot of times I will purpose a question to get others to think and find the answers themselves. Its part of the learning process that I think is important in MA. A lot of things must be realized, discovered, and learned on your own.

It was not a personal attack against you mate (haha couldn't resist) I assure you of that.

I do have live training and do go to the ground with people. I have been beaten and I have prevailed. I have been error and I have been correct, so on and so forth.

I recongize the effectiveness of grappling and ground fighting. Knowing your enemy and all that jazz too. If your opponet uses ground fighting then you better train against it.

I just don't think you need to go enroll at a BJJ school to be effecient at it. You just need to train hard. I like to work out with the juijitsu guys I know and I listend to the advice they give me, they know ground fighting very well.

Wing chun is not useless on the ground. I agree that its hard to get some good ground game based soley off wing chun theory but its not impossible. Not to mention wing chun is just a concept, things that are conceptual can be changed to be more effecient or more of a right answer due to circumstance.

The similarities are there, the aspect of control is there, and the theory is there. Understanding how it all coalesces is something different. That my friend I myself, am sometimes still trying to figure out. I think I have a pretty solid answer to something and then I find out there is even a simpler more effecient answer. One example is walking away from a fight. I have done this. Saw the guy who was trying to fight me (he was so drunk he couldn't stand) and thought it was a total waste of my time and simply walked past him. Nothing happened, that was the most effecient movement I have ever done; least amount of effort ever done to walk away from a fight unscathed.

Thats the thing about kung fu, its so humbling. At least it is to me. You get good at something and then find out that something doesn't mean squat against someone else, but it had worked for you previously. I do not have all the answers, and the answers I do have are by no means an absolute, however I really do try to keep an idea of what the answer might be.

Good luck with your training, and I hope we can exchange some range concepts in the future and break down the long/trapping/clench/grappling ranges and how wing chun concept holds up and how it must change to make it more effective. Just how like centerline theory can still hold up, but it changes. How many people can understand that conception? Once you understand it, how can you effectively apply it? As we evolve in our training our skill sets and attributes evolve with us. A tan sao may not even be a tan sao at times, but the concept is there. I hope this makes sense....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Very good question KJ. And I agree with AmanuJRY comment, "and probably with not much respect". A couple of my problems with things on this forum is that it's always emphasized that the likelihood of ending up on the ground is high, and the what if questions like namron's situation. Well WHAT IF I knock him out first or eliminate his chance at getting me on the ground? Is that a impossibility?

Impossible? No. Improbable? Yes. The reason is because a one punch KO is unlikely. Once the grappler covers and shoots, you will only have one chance, unless you are able to somehow get out of the way. If you don't, you will end up on your back.


I think it is smart to be aware of these arts and know the strategy and tactics of what they do.

being familiar with the tactics is one thing, but being able to defend them is quite another. In another thread, someone mentioned that one of their training partners, a WC guy, enrolled in tkd. I'm sure he knew tkd had a lot of high kicks. It was stated however, that it took the guy six months of training with the tkd guys before he was able readily get into range to use his wc...

[sihing]

Surprise works all the time, but when that element is taken away then that advantage is lost. In the end of course it would be best to actually study and train in the art that you are opposing, but that can take a long time. Yes it is all about timing and if the timing is wrong bad things can happen. As for the one punch knock out, I was thinking more like a 4 or 5 punch knockout in 1/2 second. I don't like 1 punch knockouts either.

As for the WC guy learning TKD, either he was loosy at his WC or his WC was loosy. I've had to many experinces with TKD people personally and through others that have had no problem entering on them. We practice entry's on kickers all the time. Always remember that if you can kick me than I can do the same, the distance is set. More than likely his style will require more telegraphing and require more setup to execute his kick, mine doesn't, so once again it's timing, and also distancing. These two attributes are what really seperate the good MA/fighters from the bad, once the basics are mastered of course.

James

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Surprise works all the time, but when that element is taken away then that advantage is lost. In the end of course it would be best to actually study and train in the art that you are opposing, but that can take a long time. Yes it is all about timing and if the timing is wrong bad things can happen. As for the one punch knock out, I was thinking more like a 4 or 5 punch knockout in 1/2 second. I don't like 1 punch knockouts either.

I agree with you about surprise. I disagree about the 4 or 5 punches, however. One of the drills we do to help guys get ready for MMA fights is doing rounds where one guy can only do takedowns and the other guy can only strike. the objective is for the grappler to take the striker down. If I sprawl, I can mount a defense from there, but I've never gotten the 4 or 5 strikes without being taken down once a takedown has been initiated. The best strategy is to keep him back pedalling and on the defensive, that way he can't get the forward motion he needs to shoot in.

As for the WC guy learning TKD, either he was loosy at his WC or his WC was loosy. I've had to many experinces with TKD people personally and through others that have had no problem entering on them.

I don't think that's fair to say - on the same token, I can say that the tkd guys you faced sucked...

[namron]

sihing I like your post about leading the apponent to the ground, as ideally control is what I would be looking for to dictate the encounter regardless of range (what we train for right??).

I dont agree about being able to deal out the shots and not requiring a ground game.

Seven Star- Do you mean sprall to break the momentum and offload or circle? Interested in this, more advice I can get the better! Can you give me feed me some tips on hand position on the sprawl. i.e. when to use over-under hooks, double overhand (driving down) etc and favourable exits or striking setups after stopping the shoot?

Ta

:)