Top Secret why one is sooo afraid to being take down or ground fight

[Hendrik]

what is the Top Secret why one is sooo afraid or have great fear to being take down or ground fight, and pronouce lost even when facing a .........?

Is it any Top Secret that after one knows, one no longer afraid of the take down or ground fight?

certainly, not neccessary one will win all fight or the fight, But there will be no more fear facing people who has TOOLs BOX of take down or ground fight or locking.......?


Is that secret exist?

May be a key will break through the stagnation situation? after the break throught others stuffs are just details...

is that key exist?


what do you think?

[taltos]

What do you mean?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos
What do you mean?

as in the post.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the Top Secret why one is sooo afraid or have great fear to being take down or ground fight, and pronouce lost even when facing a .........?

Is it any Top Secret that after one knows, one no longer afraid of the take down or ground fight?

certainly, not neccessary one will win all fight or the fight, But there will be no more fear facing people who has TOOLs BOX of take down or ground fight or locking.......?


Is that secret exist?


Secret, no. I don't think so.

A point or aspect of understanding. Yes.

A strong strategy. Yes.

How does someone dissperse the intimidation of grappling/groundfighting?

To understand it. It's strategies. It's techniques. The ranges it deals with.

In short, AWARENESS of it and understanding of it.

[Hendrik]

Justin,

Thanks, great!



To understand it. It's strategies. It's techniques. The ranges it deals with. In short, AWARENESS of it and understanding of it.----------- J

But we might not be able to understand ALL of it's strategies, techniques......... as for AWARENESS what to aware? Cant be too general right?


Great post Justin!


Hey Guys! keep Share and contribute !

[planetwc]

The top secret is, that if you have NOT trained in the groundfighting game and are taken to the ground by someone who HAS trained in that range, then you will be in trouble once you find yourself there.

Even if you have a strategy for dealing with it, unless you actually practice that strategy against a resisting opponent then AGAIN you won't know if it will work when you do find yourself in that situation.

You may feel you can sprawl or counterstrike the grappler coming in for the takedown. But if you don't practice actually doing those things against someone who is able to competantly execute a takedown, how will you do it for real?

Does your chi sao training deal with attempted takedowns?
Does your other training deal with attempted takedowns?

Does your training deal with being on the ground in an unfavorable position and how to get out of that?

Does your training presume the other fighter who WANTED to take you down is competant in that range?

How important is it for you to deal with that possiblity occuring in a fight?

[Ernie]

No secrets in martial arts that’s only for marketing and fortune cookies and only comes from those that speak in lies

Like anything if you fear it , then face your fear and gain experience with experience comes confidence with confidence comes skill .
If you fear being taken done then find people skilled at it and have them take you down , feel it first hand , not through some ones [ BS secrets or stories or ideas ] but from your first hand training and research

Talking is easy but doing is something entirely different

And avoid any one that starts out by saying [ I got the secret ] he has told you he is an ego maniac and a liar or maybe he just like fortune cookies

[PaulH]

FWIW, Hendrik is just having fun and fooling around. What I find admirable is you two can be so eloquent at times. Now I know your secret. =)

Truth is the secret of eloquence and of virtue, the basis of moral authority: it is the highest summit of art and of life.
- Henri Frédéric Amiel

[PaulH]

Ahem! Well...Hendrik! I'm still waiting for your forthcoming answer. My curiousity may kill me if you don't. =)

[taltos]

Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the Top Secret why one is sooo afraid or have great fear to being take down or ground fight, and pronouce lost even when facing a .........?

I don't have a secret. I'm just not afraid of groundfighting.


Originally posted by Hendrik
certainly, not neccessary one will win all fight or the fight, But there will be no more fear facing people who has TOOLs BOX of take down or ground fight or locking.......?

I am working on just such a toolbox.

And you, Hendrick? What are your answers to your own questions?

-Levi

[Ernie]

And you, Hendrick? What are your answers to your own questions?



really hendrik [ man of 1000 questions ]

when is the last time you mixed it up with a skilled ground fighter or MMA

because it it hasn't happened in the last few years , sound like you need to find your personal experiences instead of asking others for theres

the world has changed much , though much of the old stuff has merit just as much doesn't

and what you can pull off ======== well that's something else

[anerlich]

Is it any Top Secret that after one knows, one no longer afraid of the take down or ground fight?

As with most fears, incremental exposure to and familiarity with the subject that causes the fear is the most effective strategy.

Go to grappling class. What are you afraid of? Learning something?

[PaulH]

Okay, one has fear because he can't fajing. =)

Give me a 5????

Okay, how about because he can't neutralize losing his center and the body's sensors just spin around merrily like a compass's needle?

Give me a cigar, yeah?

2-.-

Okay, I'm tired of huffing and puffing this post. I think I just go to see Gary's now. Maybe he has the secret! =) Good night, Y'all!

[Knifefighter]

"Secret" techniques are those you have not been exposed to or practiced against. Unless you have done at least a moderate amount of the groundfighting/grappling done by the various disciplines that specialize in this area these techniques will be foreign to you.

New techniques are constantly being developed, so there will always be a few "secret" ones no matter how much you train.

[Gangsterfist]

There is NO SUCH THING AS:

long range fighting

trapping range fighting

grappling

clench range

ground fighting

None of that exists! This is because fighting is fighting no matter what range you are in. Its all fighting every single aspect of it. Those things only exist in theory and are used for training. When the real thing happens its all just fighting.

Attributes (both physical and mental) will help you deal with fighting. Skill will help you deal with fighting. MOST IMPORTANT - HARD WORK!!!! will help you out in fighting. Train all aspects, work all attributes, and train hard!

There are no secret or unstoppable manuevers and there is no such thing as a deadly secret art of kung fu. Its all about training hard and working towards your goals.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
There is NO SUCH THING AS:

long range fighting

trapping range fighting

grappling

clench range

ground fighting

None of that exists! Of course it does. You can't do many things standing that you could do on the ground. Long range fighting requires different strategies, tactics and technqiues than does fighting in the clinch. You can't trap someone at long range when you can't even touch them. The person who understands that there are different ranges of fighting and fights them accordingly will have a tremendous advantage over someone who doesn't differentiate and tries to do the same things in each range.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Of course it does. You can't do many things standing that you could do on the ground. Long range fighting requires different strategies, tactics and technqiues than does fighting in the clinch. You can't trap someone at long range when you can't even touch them. The person who understands that there are different ranges of fighting and fights them accordingly will have a tremendous advantage over someone who doesn't differentiate and tries to do the same things in each range.

Maybe you missed what I was trying to say, or I did not explain it well enough.

My point was, and still is, those things only exist in theory. In a real fight (or fighting situation) all of those things are a part of fighting, therefore its all just fighting. So, if all of those combined are fighting and you want to be a good fighter, then train them all. Your attributes will help you too. Sifu Phil Redmund is going to start taking bjj, he will build attributes that will help him in fighting from doing so. Cross training ultimately is not needed, just hard training is, but either way they are just different paths to reach the same goal.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie


Like anything if you fear it , then face your fear and gain experience with experience comes confidence with confidence comes skill .
If you fear being taken done then find people skilled at it and have them take you down , feel it first hand ,...




So, Ernie's Top Secret is not to fear and try things out and gain experience .

Great Idea.

However, live has a limit and we might not be able to experience everything.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
What I find admirable is you two can be so eloquent at times. Now I know your secret. =)




You mean the secret is ERNIE is allegy (sp) to the TERM TOP SECRET. And I love to use the TERM TOP SECRET? :D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Ahem! Well...Hendrik! I'm still waiting for your forthcoming answer. My curiousity may kill me if you don't. =)


Father, For I have Sin. There might have no answer or more then singer answer to all the questions asked---- Van Helsing


:D:D:D:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ernie
And you, Hendrick? What are your answers to your own questions?




I think I have just answer Pual's post with Van Helsing qoute. :D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
"
New techniques are constantly being developed, so there will always be a few "secret" ones no matter how much you train.


Very True.

Thus, one can never experience all. and there is no reason others show you what is thier new develop "top secret" move or combination.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by taltos
I don't have a secret. I'm just not afraid of groundfighting.


-Levi


Why dont you afraid of groundfighting? what is that 'secret"?

Where Ernie strongly believe one has to practice with skill Ground fighting MMA people, to gain experience. otherwise the Old stuff...

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich


Go to grappling class. What are you afraid of? Learning something?


Ok, Anerlich's TOP SECRET is keep learning something new.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
Okay, one has fear because he can't fajing. =)

Give me a 5????

Okay, how about because he can't neutralize losing his center and the body's sensors just spin around merrily like a compass's needle?

Give me a cigar, yeah?

2-.-

Okay, I'm tired of huffing and puffing this post. I think I just go to see Gary's now. Maybe he has the secret! =) Good night, Y'all!


OK, Paul's TOP SECRET are one has to be able to issue power well and Keep good balance.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


Attributes (both physical and mental) will help you deal with fighting. Skill will help you deal with fighting. MOST IMPORTANT - HARD WORK!!!! will help you out in fighting. Train all aspects, work all attributes, and train hard!

There are no secret or unstoppable manuevers and there is no such thing as a deadly secret art of kung fu. Its all about training hard and working towards your goals.


Ok, Gangsterfist's TOP SECRET is HARD WORK and TRain all aspects . Its all about training hard and working towards your goals.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Hendrik
and there is no reason others show you what is thier new develop "top secret" move or combination. There are very good reasons to show your "top secret" innovations. Working them against others gives a chance for the weaknesses to be pointed out so that you can make the new techs stronger. It also allows others to develop counters to your new stuff, forcing you to become better by developing counters to their counters- continuous improvement.

[Miles Teg]

I think you missed the point Ernie made, but Anerlich said the same thing. Hes not saying have no fear and do it. Hes saying try the things that you fear and the fear will gradually go away. As Anerlich said this can be incrementally.

So if you fear learning BJJ thats fine. First go and have a look in the class. Second have a trial class. THird have another trial class some where different. Fourth join up and give it a go for a month.

Baby steps mate! You dont have to go straight off and fight the Gracies.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Cross training ultimately is not needed, just hard training is, but either way they are just different paths to reach the same goal. After 25 years in MA's and combative sports, I have yet to meet the person who couldn't benefit by some cross training.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
After 25 years in MA's and combative sports, I have yet to meet the person who couldn't benefit by some cross training.

Very True.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
There are very good reasons to show your "top secret" innovations.

Working them against others gives a chance for the weaknesses to be pointed out so that you can make the new techs stronger.

It also allows others to develop counters to your new stuff, forcing you to become better by developing counters to their counters- continuous improvement.


Very True and very thought-full thought!

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
1, I think you missed the point Ernie made, but Anerlich said the same thing. Hes not saying have no fear and do it. Hes saying try the things that you fear and the fear will gradually go away. As Anerlich said this can be incrementally.

2, So if you fear learning BJJ thats fine. First go and have a look in the class. Second have a trial class. THird have another trial class some where different. Fourth join up and give it a go for a month.

3, Baby steps mate! You dont have to go straight off and fight the Gracies.


1, You can be right.

however, I am thinking about people has fear to experience new things, that include learning new things and even incrementally.


2, great view!


3, do you believe in learning Wing Chun with Bruce Lee and fight Bruce Lee with Wing Chun?

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
After 25 years in MA's and combative sports, I have yet to meet the person who couldn't benefit by some cross training.

I meant that you do not need to go enroll in a BJJ or wrestling school to be good at grappling. Cross training in another system is ultimately not needed. It is only one of the many ways to learn something new. I do not cross train in a grappling/ground fighting system but I recognize they are part of combat, so I train them. I have worked out with bjj guys before and been exposed to their system. I do not wish to go cross train full time in bjj but will spend some time learning basic concepts, drills, tech, etc etc etc from someone else.

If you train hard to avoid grappling, you will have a good chance of avoiding it. Remember you are not ever fighting a system you are fighting a person. your skills/attibutes/technology Vs theirs. Training how to deal with it is more important IMHO. If you go to the ground you gotta do what you gotta do to either win right there on the ground or get up.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

1, If you train hard to avoid grappling, you will have a good chance of avoiding it.


2, Remember you are not ever fighting a system you are fighting a person. your skills/attibutes/technology Vs theirs. Training how to deal with it is more important IMHO.

3, If you go to the ground you gotta do what you gotta do to either win right there on the ground or get up.


1, One cant avoid grappling. And, there are things one might ignore which might cost more then being grap.

2, True. But, isnt it that, in general, when focus on train how to deal with a certain things is already control by others?

3, how to win be it get up or not?



has Wing Chun become the OLD STUFFS and OBSOLETE, no point to train Wing Chun any more if one doesnt get the Validity or Approval by those Skilled Ground MMA fighters? as some might suggest? if so, is Wing Chun the art a dead art which either import other system in to make it alittle usefull or it is a time to jump boat to other system? what do you think?



just some drunken thoughts :D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by YongChun

BJJ is just one type of fighting. Meeting them on the street is no more likely than to meet any of the above depending on where you are located.


Great Points.

I think the post is more about in general being taken down or Ground fight.
Not about any specific style.

[anerlich]

There are very good reasons to show your "top secret" innovations. Working them against others gives a chance for the weaknesses to be pointed out so that you can make the new techs stronger. It also allows others to develop counters to your new stuff, forcing you to become better by developing counters to their counters- continuous improvement.

Knifefighter has slash-grab-and-stabbed the correct.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by PaulH
FWIW, Hendrik is just having fun and fooling around.

Pual,


isnt it always a great thing to raise some questions that everyone has opinion about and willing to share their heart?

isnt it always a great thing to read and appreciate everyone's idea , while it is a part of the night lines --- accompany with the Sky scrappers, the starts, the vast dark blue night sky ---- within the silence?


have a great night!

[AmanuJRY]

For the record, Hendrik, my top secret is to have a strategy and a set of tactics to deal with such situations. Actually, that is my top secret for all MA.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
For the record, Hendrik, my top secret is to have a strategy and a set of tactics to deal with such situations. Actually, that is my top secret for all MA.


Great sharing!

[Hendrik]

ABSTRACTED FROM THE JOURNAL OF A MAD MAN. ( hey, this doesnt reflect my view. )


In a General view,

Because in Wing Chun's Localization Evolution of the past few decades, as early as 1940, Wing Chun some how make a wrong turn consciously or unconsciously or flow with the market....etc

in early/mid 1980's this crack has shown up in an unfortunate accident incident but ignored or not solve in the root level.
In late 1990s, unless the root structure has another Localization Evolution it doesnt fix the core issue, some see the issues and try to evolve it but the localization evolution doesnt goes deep enought. In 2000, it is too late for some, thus, some is force to learn other arts to compensate the system.

And what happen will cost Wing Chun to bleed big time.

That wrong turn, That is the SECRET IMHO.

Some might ask "what is the .... pretend...."
Hahaha, there are twenty years of data shown that wrong turn. that secret.

well, just my "pretending fantasy" OPINION. I know nothing ofcorse. But if my Model is right, then watch for the day after effect like what that recent movie shows. Wing Chun become Winter.

So, what is the core issue?

Guess.

Remember the Tien Dei Yan? There lie a big secret of this wrong turn.




--------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont have every individual personal best figther, opps investors, experience but statistic can predict the trend and help find the root cause. must be scientific isnt it? I dont have any skill but my model might be critical. lets pray that I am wrong.

[duende]

Tin Yan Dei left Hendrick on the floor yelling like a child...

"THAT'S NOT WING CHUN!!!"


Obviously you didn't learn from hands on experience. Nothing more will be gained by you discussing Tin Yan Dei on the net??

No Secret, just more up your empty learning.

[PaulH]

Personally while I'm curious about many things, I don't believe in secrets and don't hold to any supposed secrets. If life is a journey, why attach yourself to just one hiding place? This to me is the true meaning that there are no secrets for those who reach the mountaintop. =)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
Personally while I'm curious about many things, I don't believe in secrets and don't hold to any supposed secrets. If life is a journey, why attach yourself to just one hiding place? This to me is the true meaning that there are no secrets for those who reach the mountaintop. =)

It's commonly thought that to live a full life we must set goals for ourselves. And if we've taken up WING CHUN, we might think our goal is to reach (_________)? Any thought, brother PaulH;)

[Gangsterfist]

Wing chun is not dead.

MMA does not make you a superior fighter.

If someone who was skilled at wing chun and actually got off their butts and trained hard could easily be a professional figthter.

But what does that prove? It proves that someone can train the attributes of wing chun and win in the ring. Does that mean its a great martial art? What does that actually mean?

Grappling and ground fighting has won lots of ring fights. What does that mean? Does that prove its a combat tested, complete art that can be used in any situation? No, it just proves that it can work.

Training to avoid the situations like this is not playing their game as you put it earlier hendrick. Its training attributes to deal with it, when it happens. Its like we always say 50/50 in stance and foot work for optimal results. However, how we train we also recognize the need for 40/60, 70/30, so on and so forth. Obviously in theory I would rather stay 50/50, but in reality i may have to take that extra step or lean and become 40/60. I recognize that there is no constant in fighitng, and its all conceptual and its not an exact science. There will be margins of error.

Same thing applies to grappling/groundfighting. I recognize its an important part of fighting. I have wrestled around with people before, I have sparred ground fighters. They will try shoot take downs, take your strikes as they rush in, take whatever you give them, etc etc. Staying in the mindset that training to avoid and deal these things is playing their game and that you should not paly their game, you should make them play yours. Well, if you cannot nuetralize them how can you make them play your game of stand up?

It all comes down to training, hard work, and dedication. Being open minded, humble, and willing to branch out also help.

There are no secret or unstoppable manuevers. Grapplers can be knocked out just as easy as anyone else. They are human. The problem is not wing chun, the problem is the practitioner. They get caught in mindsets of their "deadly secret wing chun moves" or whatever and think that is all they ever need. In reality a gum sao would probably not work against a skilled grappler trying to shoot take you down. Unless you time it perfect with foot work, and proper energy. So, to make the gum sao work you would have to train it realistically, train it hard, and train it against a live partner. So, really it all comes back to hard work.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
But what does that prove? It proves that someone can train the attributes of wing chun and win in the ring. Does that mean its a great martial art? What does that actually mean?


Kung Fu = Hard Work

[PaulH]

Philosophically speaking of course, the goal is to be! =) Now, to be or not to be... that is the question! O\_

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by duende
Tin Yan Dei left Hendrick on the floor yelling like a child...

"THAT'S NOT WING CHUN!!!"


Obviously you didn't learn from hands on experience. Nothing more will be gained by you discussing Tin Yan Dei on the net??

No Secret, just more up your empty learning.


being in Suffering cause by one ownself and trying to use anything trying to damage others is Not that Zen at all.
Hahahaha


it will be great for you to keep thinking that way. certainly a plus.:D

[anerlich]

in early/mid 1980's this crack has shown up in an unfortunate accident incident but ignored or not solve in the root level.

What incident was this? Be specific for once in your life.


In 2000, it is too late for some, thus, some is force to learn other arts to compensate the system.

I wasn't forced to learn another system. I took it up because it was fun and obviously effective and synergised with the other things I was doing. Plus you can wear cool looking gi's with patches all over them.

Wing Chun has to stand or fall on its own, don't try to imply those who cross train have somehow "deserted" or "lost faith" in Wing Chun. I want to learn and practice martial arts, not join a cult.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich

Wing Chun has to stand or fall on its own, don't try to imply those who cross train have somehow "deserted" or "lost faith" in Wing Chun. I want to learn and practice martial arts, not join a cult.



What's wrong with people even jump boat if one art cannot satisfied the need? or even learning other art to compensate for what one doesnt learn in one's Wing Chun?

Please tell me what kind of Faith you have in Wing Chun?


as for cult or imply.... you certainly can freely think that way, but I dont see there is any thing lead to that from what I have post.

[anerlich]

Me:


What incident was this? Be specific for once in your life.


Hendrik:


Please tell me what kind of Faith you have in Wing Chun?

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.


What's wrong with people even jump boat if one art cannot satisfied the need?

Why is it a boat, that your are either in or out of? Why can't it by like a cruise liner, with many classes and cabins that passengers can move between, but you're all still heading in the same direction?

Pigeonholes are for pigeons ... and mail at the office.

[anerlich]

but I dont see there is any thing lead to that from what I have post

Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote ... I think I'd have plenty of sympathy there from other posters.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote ... I think I'd have plenty of sympathy there from other posters.

Understandable.

sympathy is a type of Bias or pre-condition to not let people see clearly, right?

To be Zen is to be able to switch role instead of hang on... attachment. :D

[Hendrik]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours. -----



Everyone here by now know I qoute the old writing as much as I can.
I always dig into what happen in the past from those old writing. Within that digging, facing , and testing what have been or might have been suggest by the past ancestors lies my faith. Dont you think so?

now what is yours?





Why is it a boat, that your are either in or out of? Why can't it by like a cruise liner, with many classes and cabins that passengers can move between, but you're all still heading in the same direction? --------

The issue is that is this boat still the same boat are they still heading in the same direction after going through many times of evolution in order to survive .....

[anerlich]

"Everyone here by now know I qoute the old writing as much as I can.
I always dig into what happen in the past from those old writing. Within that digging, facing , and testing what have been or might have been suggest by the past ancestors lies my faith. Dont you think so?"

I asked you about an incident that you alleged occurred in the early to mid 80's that led to some schism of your "localization evolution". That's what I meant by "I'll show you mine..."

What was this incident?

I'm still waiting ....

"The issue is that is this boat still the same boat are they still heading in the same direction after going through many times of evolution in order to survive ....."

You used an inappropriate metaphor regarding boats, and suggested that those who supplemented their study of WC with other arts were like rats deserting a ship, which you seem to feel is sinking, due to this incident in the 1980's that you haven't yet given any details of.

And, going back to your metaphor, if the boat IS going in the wrong direction, with the self appointed Captain Queegs in charge intent on running it over the Edge of the Flat Earth, wouldn't you be looking to jump over the side as well?

So ... how about this incident in the 1980's? Or is this a figment? Were the old writings you read Nostradamus? did you know that according to the Weekly World News (a far better paper of its ilk than the National Enquirer which you seem to like) Nostradamus predicted the OJ Simpson verdict?

Lest you look for another loophole to wriggle out of answering the question, I'll repeat it once more:

So ... how about this incident in the 1980's?

[Hendrik]

I asked you about an incident that you alleged occurred in the early to mid 80's that led to some schism of your "localization evolution". That's what I meant by "I'll show you mine..."


Here is your post:

***************************************

Hendrik:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please tell me what kind of Faith you have in Wing Chun? --HS
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I'll show you mine if you show me yours. -----An

************************************************


So? you change your mind?









You used an inappropriate metaphor regarding boats, -----------A


very judgmental thought pattern as usual. :D The rest is your own thoughts. which not interest me at all.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
Plus you can wear cool looking gi's with patches all over them. You lucky bast@rd. :cool: :D

[anerlich]

Here is your post:

That was only part of my post, as would be obvious to most.

The incident was a figment, I guess.


The rest is your own thoughts. which not interest me at all.

very judgemental thought pattern as usual. So what?