Dharma Talks

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Since the original thread disappeared.......

The following is the response i had begun, during which the thread magically vanished...

Greetings..


Example: Someone is determined that they can float down if they jump off a building with an umbrella. They saw it in a cartoon, so it must be true. They're standing there about to leap off. Do you insist that they're wrong or let them find out for themself?
LOL.. well, i see my hope that reason might gain a foot-hold here may have been misplaced.. i would hope that we could each evaluate the consequences and act accordingly.. a name-calling debate over grammar or conceptual matters and life-threatening misconceptions are distinctly differing issues.. ultimately, i suggest that we evaluate our motives (intentions) and then act in a manner that most clearly defines our greatest concept of what we "could" be (as members of the human community)..

If i were truly concerned with someone's welfare i don't think i would engage them in emotional conflicts.. but, if i wanted to punish them for not accepting "my" truths, or show people how superior i was compared to another, then i might use such tactics.. Successful communication is an art.

I hold two virtues in high esteem, sincerity and compassion.. i see little of that here.. Dharma Talks? It is our deeds that define us to others, if we are harsh or aggressive or inciting or uncaring towards others.. it is likely that we will alienate some who we had not intended.. someone’s poor technical grammar skills does not necessarily invalidate the intended communication.. i know some people with poor formal education backgrounds, yet.. their insights into life are superior to many great intellects..

I suggest that we pick our battles carefully.. be gentle until the situation "requires" otherwise.. then, the surprise of manifested potential will offer advantages..

Be well..

[SPJ]

Dharma means the way of the Buddha.

It is a wide and deep or deep and wide subject.

4 noble truths, 8 paths.

Hmm?

Where to start?

:confused:

[CaptinPickAxe]

Sorry, I had to get rid of the original. I asked politely and the thread still headed in the same direction. I hope this one doesn't turn out that way.

[Serpent]

That was a bit touchy of you. The thread turned towards more generic discussions that were actually in keeping with the topic. If you expect all your threads to go exactly as you plan them then you should stop posting now! ;)

[SPJ]

My father vs my mother. A Buddhist vs a Christian.

I grew up influenced by both.

My mon would split the cake or the food among 4 kids.

If there is other kids, we split more and share the food or dinner together.

Father would do the same.

Mom said Christian share out of love for God and each other. Mom said Buddhists are idol worshippers.

Dad said we share because we are all the same. Our consciousness are connected to one big source. Buddha is a symbol of loving kindness and compassions.

Hinayana (external) strives to be an arhat (worthy one). Mahayana (internal) strives to be a bodhisattvas (enlightenment being or buddha in the making). Vajrayana strives to be a siddha (adept).

In short, I share food anyway. Out of love in Christ. or Compassion of the awaken one.


:)

[SPJ]

The dhyana school (ch'an);

It generally rejected scripture and verbalizations.

It focuses on a direct pointing to the heart of the man.

Early Chan masters stress importance of an ordinary mind and a Buddha mind.

Transmissions of enlightenments are from heart to heart. No scriptures or words.

:)

[CaptinPickAxe]

I try to keep all of my beef off of the thread. If you wanna talk/debate anything feel free to PM me, but please keep it off of this thread.

Much Abliged

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

.

Transmissions of enlightenments are from heart to heart. No scriptures or words.
And.. so it was for much of man's early history, a perfectly natural exchange.. then ritual and personal agendas added structure and standards and the mess we have today..

The wisdom in the old saying, "if you pass the Buddha on the road, kill him".. it is appropriate.. Buddha's enlightment was his alone, he only shared the way "he" got there, not intending such a structured and formal "religion".. not implying that his was the only way..

Do you suppose that the universe is so petty as to keep score on beings such as ourselves and contrive levels and cycles of experiences to cultivate perfect spirits? Hardly, that is a notion contrived by man consistent with the development of cosmic comprehension at that particular time.. it found favor with a substantial group of people.. and, eureka!!, a religion is founded.. if it works for others, so be it..

It is my belief, based on my experiences, that the universe simply unfolds before us, an unprejudiced gift of the Tao.. it has no demands or rules of conduct, those are human contrivances of convenience or conspiracies of agendas.. the universe responds to our every request according to the degree we actually believe it will.. enlightenment is simply a superior awareness of belief and a knowledge of the inherent inter-relatedness of all things.. "4 noble truths, 8 paths"? a universal truth or a man's notion? I don't see levels or dimensions, only a seamless whole that we position ourselves in according to the degree of "awareness" we care to accept or develop..

The Christian notion that a supreme being created the universe and humanity, set rules and eternal consequences.. endowed it's creatures with free will and then punishes it for using the free will, seems far-fetched.. similarly, to create a being with such remarkable senses for pleasure and pain and punish or reward adversely/contrary to man's inclinations seems far-fetched.. it seems more likely a product of cultural guilt/morals set to ritual.. A contrived supreme being that will absolve us for those deeds we "naturally" feel regret/remorse for.. a sort of abdication of responsibility, a "get out of jail free" card.. do what you want then ask for forgivness..

It is what it is.. any other notion is just that, a notion.. a personal acceptance of a structure that satisfies a personal need or a social consensus.. the universe gets along just fine with or without human interference.. i find my peace in observing the "way" things "are", and working toward keeping the balance that preserves the natural flow of things..

Be well...

[SPJ]

Good points.

Buddhism is about what Buddha believes.

Buddha believes in seeking and knowing the truth. He did not negate existence of God. Daoism did not negate that either. That would be a whole new discussion.

Let me start with basics of Chan Buddhism. Or Chinese version or understanding.

Buddha said we have to know truth. His truth is the 4 noble truths.

All start with honesty. To know things as things are.

From the honesty came right thoughts, right speech and right actions.

Secondly, self vs non-self. Atman vs Anatman.

In order to see the truth, we have to see beyond ourself. Self is an attachment. We have to see beyond this life. It is a very difficult lesson. If we can transcend this, we know there are truths beyond birth, sickness, ageing and death. We know that we are all part of a greater consciousness. Our loving kindness and compassion are natural.

We know that only the truth and consciousness are permanent. Everything else is impermanent and thus illusory.

In short, Buddhism focuses on things that do not change. Daoism focuses on how to study and learn how things change and follow the path/Dao/law of change.

Both are parts of the truth. Neither negates the source nor existence of God. Or they bypass it or not mentioning it.

Peace.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


We know that only the truth and consciousness are permanent. Everything else is impermanent and thus illusory.
Although physical existence may be impermanent, it is real "for a time".. it is the vehicle through which we experience the cosmos from a physical perspective.. i have to suppose that in the Universe's wisdom, this physical existence has some distinct purpose.. i find it odd that some are so willing to dispose of the richness of Life in favor of some "greater" goal.. perhaps, the cosmic "intention" is that we embrace this Life fully and with gusto.. to reject this experience as "illusory" seems a bit like the ostrich sticking its head in the sand.. here it is, here we are.. why would we reject such a magnificent opportunity experience the Universe from the physical perspective.. I sense that it is a necessary process in the development of our spiritual awareness, a vehicle to school the spirit in the possibilities of Universal awareness..

"For every season there is a purpose".. and, for the "Season of Man" i sense that purpose is not one of "illusory rejection".. In the end, no one "knows".. we are here for a time, then we are not.. will that time be a sterile experience or a celebration of the gift of Life..

Be well..

PS: SPJ, i find you insightful and a great conversationalist.. Thanks..

[SPJ]

Excellent points.

Buddism believes that the human realm is the best to reach enlightenment compared with other realms.

Cheers.

:)

[SPJ]

Basic teachings of Dharma.

All are strickly dependent, conditioned and relative.

Pratitya-samutpada.

Dependent origination.

Conditioning links in a life cycle;

1. Ignorance

2. Volitional action

3. Conditioned consciousness

4. Name and form

5. The 6 bases

6. Sense-impressions

7. Feelings

8. Desire

9. Attachment

10. Becoming

11. Birth

12 Old age, death

[SPJ]

The hindrances;

1. Sensual desire (abhidya)

2. Ill will (pradosha)

3. Sloth and torpor (styana and middha)

4. Restlessness and worry (anuddhatya and kaukritya)

5. doubt (vichikitsa)

The study of dharma and cultivation are to diminish these hindrances.

[SPJ]

The fetters (samyojana)

10 factors bind us to samsaric existence.

1. Belief in personality (drishti)

2. skepticism (vichikitsa)

3. attachment to rules and rituals

4. sensous craving (kama-raga)

5. ill will

6. craving for material existence (rupa-raga)

7. craving for non-material existence (arupa-raga)

8. conceit (mana)

9. restlessness

10 ignorance (avidya)

Even dharma has to be laid aside in the end.

[SPJ]

The brahma viharas;

1. loving kindness (maitri)

2. compassion (karuna)

3. sympathetic joy (mudita)

4. equanimity (upeksha)

the 4 sublime states.

Sorry!

Just list some topics to jump start the thread of dharma.

:)

[blooming lotus]

and what about duty??

where does that fit into it.....

attatchement or commitment??

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
It is my belief, based on my experiences, that the universe simply unfolds before us, an unprejudiced gift of the Tao... <whereas> The Christian notion <is> that a supreme being created the universe and humanity

Is the Christian account actually different than the account you endorse, or does it merely use different words? If the former, in what way does it differ?


The Christian notion <is> that a supreme being... set rules and eternal consequences..

We have entertained this before: I really don't think you understand the Orthodox Christian position. Christianity was a reaction against the Jewish concept of God as law-giver and advocates, under the Pauline symbol of grace, occupying a natural existential state which transcends laws. Ironic to your juxtaposition here, I believe this conception is a profound similarity between the Taoist and Orthodox Christian traditions, and distinguishing both from their closer relatives. For a central example of this argument in scripture, see Romans 7 (http://wyllie.lib.virginia.edu:8086/perl/toccer-new?id=RsvRoma.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=7&division=div1).


A contrived supreme being that will absolve us for those deeds we 'naturally' feel regret/remorse for.. a sort of abdication of responsibility, a 'get out of jail free' card.. do what you want then ask for forgiveness.

Similarly, this notion is entirely alien to Orthodox Christianity. Based upon previous explanations about your personal experience, I believe your confusion here arises from confounding the Protestant theology you are familiar with with Christian theology generally, whereas the former is not representative of the latter -- and what is representative is quite different.

Pertinent to this remark, you're right that Protestants understand salvation to be certain, binary (you are saved or you're not), and equated to the placing of the person into the elect. However, non-Protestants believe the exact opposite: that salvation is uncertain, progressive, and refers rather to a development of the person. Your remark here doesn't seem appropriate to this latter conception. You can refer to the Catholic Encyclopedia's entries on Justification (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm) and Grace (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm) to verify my distinctions here.

[SPJ]

Excellent post on Christianity.

I listed 4 topics. Sort of crash courses of basics.

The first one is dependent origination.

This is the fundamental theory of Dharma (the body and the mind).

Everything arises from something else.

Death is from birth.

If there is no birth, there is no death.

Our body will get sick, old and die. No matter what morality we practice.

The mind or consciousness is not. It may move around in different realms and cycles of life.

If we realize this, we will not attach to the body. The body is like a utensil. It gets worn out and old. We therefore transcend the suffering of birth,sickness, aging and death.

Where does the duty fit in the list?

You mean duty as a Buddhist?

That would be 8 paths of wisdom (prajna) , morality (shila) and meditation (samadhi).

8 paths (ashtangika-marga)

1. right understanding (samyag-dristhi)
2. right thought (samyag-samkalpa)
3. right speech (samyag-vach)
4. right action (samyak-karmanta)
5. right livelihood (samyag-ajiva)
6. right effort (samyag-vyayama)
7. right mindfulness (samyak-smriti)
8. right concentration (samyak-samadhi)

[SPJ]

Right actions;

Five precepts (pancha shila);

1. refrain from taking life.

2. refrain from taking which is not given.

3. refrain from misuse of the senses.

4. refrain from telling lies.

5. refrain from self intoxication with drink an drugs.

I think these are duties of a Buddhist then.

If you are committed to Dharma or Buddha's teachings, you are a Buddhist.

If you are asking about duty or commitments to yourself, family, or country?

Well, that comes from you.

:D

[SPJ]

Duty is responsibility. Or something inherent.

The duty of a student is to study well.

The duty of a teacher is to teach well.

The duty of a soldier is to fight and to defend his or her country.

The duty of a mother is to foster and care of her young.

Attachment means something we add to the inherent.

Attachment means we like or dislike something too much.

If a student studies well, that is ok. If he or she studies too much, and forgets about rest and other physical activity and worries a lot about grades all the time. That is an attachment. The purpose of study is to learn.

If a teacher teaches well, that is ok. If he or she teaches too rigorously, the students are bored or worn out or oversaturated. The students actually learn less.

If a soldier fights only necessary wars, that is ok. If he or she does too much fighting, such as first strike, pre-emptive strike or just strike with faulty intel and made up causes. The defender becomes the aggressor. That is over attachment.

In short, your commitment is only to the inherent nature of things. Anything beyond duty, it is an attachment.

Students and grades.

Teachers and too many classes or lessons.

Soldiers and unwarranted/unjustified wars.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Christopher M

"However, non-Protestants believe the exact opposite: that salvation is uncertain, progressive, and refers rather to a development of the person."

Not ture. common to all bibles is that 1) Jesus died on the cross so that all may be saved and 2) salvation is by faith and not by one's works.

What you are refering to is the betterment of a person as he/she understands more of who Jesus is about and wants to be more like him. Change in a person's life is progressive as opposed to instant - that is acknowledge by both Catholics and Protestants alike. Nevertheless, both denominations are Christian and the belief is that once you accept Jesus as Lord & Saviour you are saved and as a child of God, your past present and future sins are forgiven.

Although both Christian and Buddist teachings tell us to be good people, Buddism does not talk about salvation but rather life cycles within life cyles until you reach a "god like state". Herein, Buddism teaches that you can reach a "supereme" state from your own works. In contrast, Christianity says that we are all spiritually dead due to original sin and the only way out of it is through salvation, a gift from God and not one that can be achieved through human endeavours.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SPJ
Excellent post on Christianity.

I listed 4 topics. Sort of crash courses of basics.

The first one is dependent origination.

This is the fundamental theory of Dharma (the body and the mind).

Everything arises from something else.

Death is from birth.

If there is no birth, there is no death.

Our body will get sick, old and die. No matter what morality we practice.

The mind or consciousness is not. It may move around in different realms and cycles of life.

If we realize this, we will not attach to the body. The body is like a utensil. It gets worn out and old. We therefore transcend the suffering of birth,sickness, aging and death.

Where does the duty fit in the list?

You mean duty has a Buddhist?

That would be 8 paths of wisdom (prajna) , morality (shila) and meditation (samadhi).

8 paths (ashtangika-marga)

1. right understanding (samyag-dristhi)
2. right thought (samyag-samkalpa)
3. right speech (samyag-vach)
4. right action (samyak-karmanta)
5. right livelihood (samyag-ajiva)
6. right effort (samyag-vyayama)
7. right mindfulness (samyak-smriti)
8. right concentration (samyak-samadhi)


dong. I dig what you're saying but 1st, unless we are paying modern psychology tables of wholarchy ( many individual ( in this case levels and stages) within the one ) and absolutes ( or definate and unchangable factors ) ( which alot of people just don't, believe it not ) in evoloutionary conciousness, it's a lil presumptious ( of other peoples' beliefs ) to say that about transitional and remnant conciousness and as far as duty, I hear you, but abiding by that is more commitment than duty right. commitment to the belief the paths are valid rather than duty to walk it.

do you see the difference? That's my point. :) :cool:

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
Not true. common to all bibles is that... salvation is by faith and not by one's works.

You may want to reexamine your Bible: "by works a man is justified; and not by faith only" (James 2:24 -- see James 2:14-26).

[blooming lotus]

but doesn't the faith dictate the works???!!!!

[SPJ]

Dependent Origination.

The reasons (factors) that give birth to something also seed the end.

Because everything is tansitory or impermanent.

From Buddhism classes in the '70 to study clubs in the '80, I know I got bored with sutras very quickly.

Everybody seemed to like the stories. Me in particular.

IBM started with cashier register, then computer, then business solutions.

If IBM stayed with register only, it would end 30 years ago.

Eastman Kodak stayed with negative films and movie films alone. It would end with the emergence of digital cam. Guess what EK changed with image digital, too.

The end of something is also the beginning of something else.

Microsoft dos 7, 8, 9 ended. Window 95 started.

Is there any change in their inherent duty or core business?

No. IBM still business or e-business solutions.

EK still image development and processing from chemical to digital.

MS is still operating system in PC or workstations.

The core business are their truths or duties.

Their commitments are to the core business and not to the vehicles or platforms that come and go.

No attachment to vehicles. But commitments to the core truths.

Hence the duties are to be enlightened to the permanent truths and not the impermanent stuffs.

Sorry!

Too deep, too fast.

:D

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

Yes it does. In many parts of the bible versus points to - how do you know you have faith. Analogy of a tree that bears fruit.

Accordingly, a true Christian (as opposed to someone who has gone thru the motions of baptism) will not use forgiveness as a get out of jail free card.

The Lord looks at ones heart, it is the motive that counts in the end. There are a number of analogies which talk about that eg. the Priest and the tax collector.

In the end, the order is imporatant - what I mean is, having works but no faith is useless. Having faith would lead to works.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"Core truths".. Each religion holds there to be a higher power, a source, or a cosmic divinity.. each religion assigns this concept a personality(s) or a ritual.. each of these assigned qualities reflect the cultural ideologies and historic cultural developments.. "core truth", there is a force or power greater than the individual.. it is that simple acknowledgement that is common to almost all religions (spiritual awareness), the remainder is culturally variable.. Spiritual awareness is that inherent "knowing" that we are part of something greater than our individual selves.. Science tells us that the Universe is a sea of energy behaving in many unique and magnificent ways.. i sense that we, as "individuals", are just unique aspects of that same energy... like snowflakes, each one unique but made of the same stuff...

What is the probability that, in this vast universe, a supreme power would set such intricate rules for such a miniscule spot of inhabitants.. is it more likely that those inhabitants would observe the natural rhythms & cycles and develop systems of behavior and discipline to correspond harmonically with their environment...

Do you notice that religions tend to offer an escape from the "pain and suffering" of life, a common desire of the masses.. is it likely that religions are formalized desires, a belief that there must be a purpose and way to improve on this existence.. does it sort of sound like escapism, creating a deity that can offer us an escape from the "pain and suffering" of now and the uncertainty of an existence beyond death..

Supreme powers, cosmic puppeteers, universal scoring systems, "noble truths & right paths", etc... and no verifiable evidence to support these "beliefs"... yet, each one draws on its interpretation of natural consequences to establish rules and rituals..

Nature.. observable, systematic AND random, determinable consequences, etc.. I sense that, as cultures, mankind has assigned personalities and rituals to simple natural order that satisfies inherent desires and cultural development..

We are here for a time, the Season of Man, then we are not.. the energy that animates this human existed before and will exist after our physical experience.. during the physical experience we will refine or corrupt this energy.. and, beyond the physical existence i sense that the energy will have other experiences according to the degree of refinement or corruption of its physical manifestation regardless of whichever cultural ritual the physical human favored...

The human existence has controls to alert us of our "core" status.. compassion and conscience.. and free-will to govern our destiny..

Just the perspective of an aspiring human.. Be well..

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
blooming lotus,

Yes it does. In many parts of the bible versus points to - how do you know you have faith. Analogy of a tree that bears fruit.

Accordingly, a true Christian (as opposed to someone who has gone thru the motions of baptism) will not use forgiveness as a get out of jail free card.

The Lord looks at ones heart, it is the motive that counts in the end. There are a number of analogies which talk about that eg. the Priest and the tax collector.

In the end, the order is imporatant - what I mean is, having works but no faith is useless. Having faith would lead to works.

Ego : I love that interpretation!!!


Cheers :)

BL

[SPJ]

Good points, TCB.

It is difficult to respond to all at the same time.

On karma. It would take books to discuss the theory and the practices of Karma. This is to answer your scoring system.

If you do a good deed, you start a postive karmic cycle. You will receive good results. It is only a matter of time.

If you started bad thoughts leading to bad actions, bad karma is initiated.

One good deed does not cancel out the bad one. But it would influence it in good directions.

Karmic actions just occur. There is no superpower supervising or administering or dispensing scores.

Right thoughts lead to right speech and right actions.

That is why it is important to meditate and cultivate the right mind.

If you have harmful or ill thought to advance your interests at the expense of others, you will be harmed first, in the middle and in the end.

How not to do it?

Define your interests over others?

Craving or desires for wealth, money, power, pretty wife etc.

If you think we are all the same, there is then no priority of me over others. (no self)

All possessions are impermanent. No need to go after wealth, money, power or beauty. They are transitory.

Focus on seeing thru these in the light.

Persue wisdom and truth about life.

Start a lot of good karma.

Become the worthy one (arhat). Become the enlightened being (bodhisavatta). Become the awaken one and enter the Buddhahood.

You may have your own paths to get there.

8 paths or not.

Peace.

In short, a lot of good karma from right thoughts, right speech and right actions.

Meditate to have a good heart and mind.

Who is scoring?

:)

[SPJ]

On escape from pain and suffering.

Actually, the Buddha gang study to face them and transcend them. There is no escape. We all have to face and experience them.

Physical pain and suffering. Every one wants to avoid (aversion).

Sensual pleasures. We all want to persue. (craving or desires).

We worry in the process of aversion and craving.

Buddha said.

These are all impermanent.

We see thru these in the light.

We then seek only peace and harmony.

We are not in denial of pleasures or sufferings.

We embrance them as the heat from the Sun, coolness from the summer rain, and coldness of the wintry blizzard.

Our minds are not blinded or illusioned by them.

We know better.

Sufferings may come from bad karma or not.

Pleasure may come from good karma or not.

We cultivate our minds to see beyond these.

On and on.

I am preaching too much.

I think I just go back to story telling then.

Peace.

:D

[blooming lotus]

dwai.....

but it's good preaching and your stories are good/ contemplation worthy min.

come back to it when mind less fettered..........

cheers SP

B :) :P

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

TaiChiBob

You post was rather long so I skimmed thru it and picked up the main points. Basically in the Christian faith, the time of grace is finite. If you don't repent by then (or you don't repent before you die), basically there is no second chance.

blooming lotus,

Substance before form, although religeon is starts off with a belief, it should lead to a physical outcome. But temptations of life are great - and it is also said that it is easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than a rich man to go to haven. D@mn I should be a preacher man!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

On the subject of Karma.. i sense that it is likely a formalized cultural perspective of simple natural consequences.. we act and consequences occur.. if those consequences are beneficial our spirit acquires a beneficial or positive charge, if those consequences are harmful our spirit acquires a negative charge.. and, in the end, when the flesh is no more, the energy that is us moves on according to the pos/neg energy it has acquired..


Basically in the Christian faith, the time of grace is finite. If you don't repent by then (or you don't repent before you die), basically there is no second chance.
Given that the "Season of Man" spans +/- 80 years, is it reasonable for a deity to assign eternal rewards for such a short opportunity of experience?

For the serious student of Christian faith how do you resolve the huge numbers of contridictions and incongruities in the same text that is held as the true "word of God"? Is it inconsistent to create beings with such instincts and senses for pleasure and pain, give them "free-will" and then dictate the use of that "free-will" with eternal consequences?

Is that any less believable than a Universe that puts the spirit in that same sensual and curious body and keeps returning it there until it "gets it right"? (and worse, the reincarnation system leaves you with little clues as to how you screwed up the last time, you just have to figure it out all over again)..

I think the Universe is much simpler than all that.. we are masters of our own destiny, we inherently know beneficial from harmful.. and it is the intention of our acts and thoughts that shape the character of our spirit.. and it is the character of our spirit that shapes the next adventure after the current physical experience..

But, as i speculated previously, as we deal with conscience and awareness of consequences it seems consistent with human nature to create an escape.. to contrive a system that permits forgiveness for harms.. or a system that releases us from the cycles of "pain and suffering".. systems that offer eternal bliss or enlightenment or whatever the greatest desire of Man may be.. perhaps, we take ourselves too seriously in this vast Universe (or, not seriously enough.. if we can't accept responsibility for our own destiny)...

Be well..

[blooming lotus]

TCB


That's a heavy post.


There are so many of what appears to be inconsistencies, but I'm going to come back to it a little later.



cheers

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

TaiChiBob,

Nothing is less believable than any other belief system. There are some cultures who belief there is no after life.

It is said in the bible that you have to first believe before god reveals himself to you. Accordingly christianity cannot be proven scientifically or compared in terms of its believability to other systems, henceforth no belief system can be proven scientifically.

You asked about the 80+ year life span thing. I guess it is what it is. It comes to the point of whether you belief it or you don't.

[SPJ]

Good insights as always. TCB;

So far I have been posting Buddha teachings.

On personal notes:

You pointed out right.

Buddhism focuses on dhyana to cultivate your mind, rationalize everything above the "apparent" and seek underlying meaning of everything.

You are right. We may not remember past life or preknow the next. So that we may start afresh, many and many second chance, till we get it right. This also happens in this life. If you do it right in this life. This is the last or final cycle.

I tend to focus on the wisdom part. The rest would follow. I am not bothered by the past or the future of which I have no control. We have no control over nature or time either. What we have is to ready our mind and heart, so that truth of everything will reveal to us.

Christianity is about the greatest love of God. Since we are created. In us there are some inherent nature are God-like. If we let the nature out. We will resemble God. The life is a gift. The nature of love and forgivingness are God like. We all have them. Have great faith in God, the rest will show. If we have only one life, that is more than enough for me. The love and forgivingness are eternal.

There are many more nature of God in human.

If you are a physician, you have the healing power of God.

If you are an architect, you create and build.

If you are a painter, you paint nature and whatever in your heart or mind.

If you are a musician, you create melody like in nature or whatever in your heart or mind.

If you are a poet, you use words to describe nature or whatever in your heart and mind.

---

In short, I is a creation of God. I is like the rest of the nature. I has inherent characteristics of God. The creator created something with His nature. So does people create something in his nature.

Free will is the ultimate power.

This is too big.

I stop for now.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


It is said in the bible that you have to first believe before god reveals himself to you
Nicely convenient.. if you choose to believe then you accept all things associated with that system.. A deity truly concerned with the welfare of its creations, might be less cryptic and more straight-forward.. offer undeniable evidence, make regularly scheduled appearances.. in short, leave no doubt.. what could possibly be the purpose of testing the creatures that the deity itself created? the all-knowing deity knows beforehand the outcome, right? sounds kind of odd to go through the exercise already knowing the result.. it sort of takes away from the whole existence experience..

Be well..

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
For the serious student of Christian faith how do you resolve the huge numbers of contridictions and incongruities in the same text that is held as the true 'word of God'?

I'd be happy to resolve any you list, though I think your conception might be clarified if you consulted the last section of this document (http://www.geocities.com/francischinchoy/PBC_Interp1.htm) which discusses the non-Protestant Christian standpoint on fundamentalist interpretation.


Is it inconsistent to create beings with such instincts and senses for pleasure and pain, give them "free-will" and then dictate the use of that "free-will" with eternal consequences?

Not that I can tell.


Is that any less believable than a Universe that puts the spirit in that same sensual and curious body and keeps returning it there until it "gets it right"?

No, it's more believable. My conception of life is changed depending on whether I believe in free will, whereas it is not changed depending on whether I believe in reincarnation, which makes only the former view meaningful.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
It is said in the bible that you have to first believe before god reveals himself to you.

No it's not. In fact, it's said in the Bible that God became Man simply to reveal himself to nonbelievers.


in the Christian faith, the time of grace is finite. If you don't repent by then (or you don't repent before you die), basically there is no second chance.

Every Christian before Luther, and most of them still, believe in the soul's development after death.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Christopher M

"No it's not. In fact, it's said in the Bible that God became Man simply to reveal himself to nonbelievers."

Not true, God became Man so that he can die on the cross to atone for our sins. Even before Jesus, God had revealed himself on many occasions but not all who see him believed. There are parables in the Bible which goes along the lines of "your faith has made you well".

"Every Christian before Luther, and most of them still, believe in the soul's development after death."

This is inconsistent with the bible. What you said is not even true in the Old Kings James.

TaiChiBob

Maybe that's what you would do if right now you were a all knowing being, but maybe you would think different if you had that kind of knowledge.

Christians believe in pray for God to reveal his will in their lives. Now you can use logic here to infer that not even those who are closest to God know his mind in fully.

SPJ

"In short, I is a creation of God. I is like the rest of the nature. I has inherent characteristics of God. The creator created something with His nature. So do people created something in his nature."

Christians believe that we are made in the image of God, but we are not Gods. Sure we can create, heal, kill etc.... but our actions are bounded by natural laws. Whereas an omipotent being knows everything - and is the creator of the laws, whereas we're not.

Put it another way, we have not managed to sustain a nuclear fusion reaction, let alone create a star, or billions of solar systems, galaxies, universe and let alone the laws underpinning it all.

[SPJ]

Agreed.

People are not God. People are with nature like God. People may become one with God. But people are not God.

Dharma:

1. the cosmic law underlying our world.

2. the teaching of the Buddha that expresses the universal truth.

3. norms of behavior

4. manifestation of reality.

5. mental content, object of thought, idea-a reflection of a thing in the human mind.

6. factors of existence

These are meanings of Dharma.

[SPJ]

On free will;

When I first studied TCMA, there were no choices for me.

I started with Shaolin Quan, then Tai Tzu Chan Quan, Tong Bei and Liu He Mantis.

They are all big frame. Big opening and big closing. (Da Kai Da He) Or the movements are big.

One day I studied Wing Chun, I felt crammy. I was so shrunk into a center line. My fists are in the center line all the time. My hands may not extend beyond my shoulder line. Yi Zi or Er Zi Chien Yang Ma. I cover my groin, too. My Ma Bu is narrowed, too.

I felt terrible in practicing WC. After a while, I like it, too. It makes different senses.

WC is smart that there is always a defense (guarding the center line) and open the opponent's door and attack in the center line.

Why? because most of the fighting takes place in front of your face, chest and abdomen. These are guarded all the time.

You use both of your hands, 1-2-3 on and on in combo, in a series.

After a while, I went back to Da Kai Da He.

I felt what a waste of move and energy.

If I have a free will to choose beforehand, I have no idea what I am choosing from.

After I learned both, I still do not know what to choose, because I like them both.

To have a free will or not to have a free will???

I was not allowed to have a free will not to study CMA. I was allowed to pick what to study only after I studied them for a few years first.

PS; The reason why I like both, because I learn how to fight in a big open space and in a crammy narrow alley or space, too.


:confused:

[SPJ]

On revelation of God;

When I hear birds chirping, God reveals to me.

When I see millions of stars in the sky, He reveals to me.

When I feel the coolness of morning breeze, He reveals to me.

When I feel deep sorrow with Mom passing away, He comforts me.

When I know how difficult it is that life is created, His greatness reveals to me.

I may not "see" Him in person, and yet I may find clues of His existence everywhere.

Every breath I take is a miracle. I am grateful to have a moment of life. I wonder all the revelations of Him.

[SPJ]

Christian is love.

If you love your family,

If you love your parents,

If you love your neighbors;

If you love your friends;

If you forgive and love your enemies?

If you love God,

Then

You will not kyll,

You will not steal,

You will not covet,

You will not take His name in vain,

---

If you love God, because He loves you.

If you forgive your enemies, because God forgives you.

If you love--

:D

[SPJ]

Back to free will;

The nature, the universe and the human mind are deep already.

The free will will add more depths in your mind.

We would get lost easily in the abyss.

The only way not to be lost is to have an anchor in your heart.

It can be your religions or core beliefs.

If you believe in Budda, then Budda is in your heart.

If you are a Christian, then God is in your heart.

If you are a Daoist, then "do no harm" is in your heart.

--

Your free will then has an anchor.

Back to the story of CMA study;

You may start with WC;

You may start with Chan Quan;

You may then have an anchor in the depths of TCMA.


:D

[SPJ]

Free will vs anchor.

Science has sets of rules to prove or disprove things.

Physics, chemistry etc all have core principles or rules to start or to base on.

If new evidences come out, the new anchor is found.

So what about your mind and will?

Religions free???

Beliefs free??

Principles free???

Will free??

Then

Where is your anchor?

God.

Buddha.

Dao.

Or

No anchor?

:confused:

[SPJ]

If you put your anchor,

me first.

me interests above everyone else.

The me, mini me or macro me may not last long.

Then where is your anchor??

[blooming lotus]

in the me that is a part of the big picture but fits in at pres by means of blind walking this level...

[SPJ]

Good points;

In response to the post that if God reveals Himself, I reply that He reveals Himself in everything we see, we feel, we hear, and we come to know. Because He is the truth.

In response to inconsistence in the words in the Bible, I reply that there is no inconsistence in the aspect of love and forgivingness.

In response to the post that why God gives people free will and yet institutes eternal punishments to those choose wrong, then what is the point of free will.

I reply that "free will" actually need an anchor or a sense of directions.

Eventually, all paths will lead to the truth or God Himself as long as your persuit is with the right intentions.

Free will does not mean drifting or aimlessness.

I use examples and stories to make these points.

Zen training in reading these posts.

You have to think about the meanings underlying the posts.

Peace.

:)

[SPJ]

Time to graduate.

The truth is in your intent or heart.

If you insist on "seeing" God in "person" or miracle, to believe in God. That is an attachment and an illusion.

At the same time, you may find God in yourself and nature all around you. You may experience and know God directly, if you open your heart and "see".

If you have a good intent, love and forgive.

There is more than one Buddha. There are more than one Buddha Dharma. There are more paths than 8.

If you have a good intent to love, to be kind and compassionate;

You will not be attached to Dharma or worry about Karma.

If you have a good heart and intent, you see everything in the light or the truthful way.

For example, if my intent is to defend myself in short and wide range (MMA blah blah), I will not reject WC or Chan Quan.

Which is closer to the truth/intent, attachment to WC or Chan Quan or nonattachment.

Zen, Nirvana or enlightenment cannot be explained.

I said yes. It can be explained by many words (chan story), a few words (sutra) and no words (direct realization and experience).

God and heaven cannot be explained or proven.

I said yes. It can be explained and proven by many words (believers' testimonies), a few words (the Bible and preacher's speech) and no words (direct experience and realization).

In short, if your intent is to seek the truth, start with a good intent or your heart.

If you do not know God or Buddha, where do you start?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

What i "know" of God or Buddha is based on descriptions by others..

What i have experienced surpasses words, books, rituals, etc.. though some of those may have aided me in my journey..

I have come to the realization and "knowing" that we are ALL One.. hurt one~hurt all / help one~help all.. we can exchange words all day, but.. it is the life we live that tells our story, that shows our truth..

God, Buddha, Tao, etc.. are not confined in books, rituals or beliefs.. those are just the accounts of different cultures experiences with the One..

Yes, SPJ.. from intention springs thought and action.. intention is the signature of the soul.. it is dualistic in that it shapes our actions and our actions shape our soul..

God is a word that carries way too much religious and social baggage.. A remarkable insight into the concept of "God" is authored by Neale Donald Walsch, "Conversations With God".. i highly recommend it if you want to reacquaint yourself with "God"..

Be well

[SPJ]

Excellent points.

Religions and knowing Budda way are personal and subjective.

:)

[SPJ]

On self interests.

If we think we are all on the same boat of life, yes, we may not generate ill thoughts toward others. We may share compassion, kindness and love.

There is a China dude owns a dry cleaning store and has a small house on the block. He practices Tai Ji in the park every morning.

There is a bigger house owned by a banker.

There is a even bigger house owned by a senator.

The banker has many worries. He took his clothes for dry cleaning. He said he has to worry about interests rate, loan applications, loan defaults, repro, capitalization porfolio of the bank, on and on. I have no peace.

The senator has many worries, too. He took his clothes for dry cleaning. He said I have to worry about the media, what people think, the votes, the party, the candidate, the domestic, local and foreign policy, the tax bill, the gun law, the gay rights, the separation of church and state, the fund for public school, the ---

All this time, the China dude saw the big house and big cars. He envied and admired. After the conversations, he knew now every body has his own piece of sky above the head.

The house and the car are mortgaged. So the bank has them. The banker are paying interests. The China dude paid off the house and the Ford truck.

The senator has limited income, too. He has to raise money for campaigning for his seat and supporting candidates in his party. He may lose the election and all the efforts and money are gone. If not enough candidates from his party are elected, his proposal or bills may not pass. on and on.

The China dude knew his big house is not even on the map.

The China dude no longer envied the bigger houses and cars any more.

2 points:

If we do not envy, we do not generate ill thoughts toward others.

And yes, every body has his or her own lessons in life. And so is his or her path to revelation of God or enlightenment to the Buddhahood or whatever principles or beliefs he or she comes to realize or know.

[bigdoing]

one time I was admiring a flock of gull's, thinking how nice it would be to sail free in the wind.

One of the SeaGull's dropped a big s**t on my Grandmothers head.