importance of weapons

[whippinghand]

How important do you think weapons are to Wing Chun? Do you train them? Why or why not?

[EmptyCup]

I think weapons in Wing Chun are pretty limited. The knives are ok and wing chun hand techniques can be applied with them but the pole is a whole lot worse. The 6 1/2 point pole is great for "wuen lik" or wrist strength development but as a fighting tool, cannot stand up to Northern system pole techniques. I think that's because northern systems are genuine staff techniques while southern ones are really meant for the spear. The northern staff techniques are much faster and the whip-like poles are to me, much more useful than the one-ended thrusts and hard wood of the southern styles such as Wing Chun.

I personally think there is much more use in training filipino weapons such as escrima sticks and daggers because they have more "street-worth". Nobody I know walks around with chinese butterfly knives or long poles :)

But that's only if you look at weapons training as just an end for fighting. Wing Chun weapons are valuable in enforcing the system's concepts and such...so they do have worth in that respect.

[Armin]

Hi!

As EmptyCup said, the weapons in Wing Chun are merely used to enforce the principles and there are a lot of better working weapon-systems (like the south-east styles).

Are weapons important for Wing Chun? Yes, of course. Wing Chun is a self-defense- / fighting-style. At least you have to know how weapons work and what one can do with them (to you).


Armin.

[dzu]

IMHO the weapons are very important in WC. Because of the distance involved and the weight of the weapons, all the intangible skills are magnified even more.

The knives are important in developing alive footwork and bridging skills. They mimic the hands very closely and require good body structure to receive the force from the pole and to disrupt the pole when bridging the gap. The knives help develop the killer instinct since they are lethal weapons. The footwork must be alive and quick. Timing and positioning must be perfect to deal with a longer and heavier weapon. The knife applications can be used empty handed as well.

One of the oral sayings in WC is "The pole is the teacher". THe pole requires that you use good body structure because it is such a heavy weapon. If you cannot use the body, you cannot use the pole. Because the pole is such a long weapon, it also forces you to understand angles, timing, and distance. The steps used in the pole form also enhance your WC empty hand footwork. Using the pole and dealing with the pole force you to examine timing positioning, and body structure from a larger frame of reference.

In chinese martial arts the 4 core weapons are the spear, the staff, the broadsword (dao), and the double edged sword (jian). Elements of all 4 weapons can be found in the 2 weapons of WC. From an application standpoint, WC weapons cover blunt, edged, long, short, piercing, cutting, and thrusting. WHat else is there?

If I want to use the pole I can pick up a cue stick or a broom stick. I can carry a 3 inch utility knife with me and apply the WC knives. WC is just as applicable as the filipino arts, it's just that most WC instructors either don't know the weapons very well, don't understand the concepts and cannot apply them, or they withold the information until the students 20th year to make more $$$.


regards,

Dzu

[EmptyCup]

I think as a empty-hand fighting system, Wing Chun is definitely up there (hey, what did you expect? this is a wing chun forum after all), but it's weapons are secondary to the hands. There are systems out there that are based wholly on weapons. Empty-hand techniques in these styles are secondary. So if you want good weapons techniques, a system that is created for weapons is obviously the way to go.

[EmptyCup]

I think that most Wing Chun guys who go toe-to-toe against filipino martial artists who use purely Wing Chun weapons techniques will get creamed. I'm saying if a Wing Chun guy picked up two knives and tried to go against a filipino guy who was trained to fight with knives or if a WC guy picked up a broomstick when filipino stylists train with sticks.

Empty-hand techniques can be used in weapons too but what's efficient and economical in Wing Chun with empty hands is not the most economical or efficient when dealing with sticks or knives. There's no comparison. We'd get toasted. It's the same with the average WC stylist fighting Muay Thai fighters. We get smoked all the time not because our system is inferior but because we don't train like they do. We, as empty-hand stylists, cannot hope to be on the same level as people who train strictly weapons-based systems.

[whippinghand]

You're thinking on the "technique" level. Think in terms of principles.

A weapon is a weapon is a weapon. Whether it's your hands, your legs, a knife, a stick, a chair, a chopstick. Principles are principles.

[dzu]

I've studied some eskrima and I don't see any difference between the principles applied there vs WCK. You still need timing, positioning, and body structure with weapons regardless of the system. You still need to know the targets, and the strengths and weaknesses of your weapon. What is different is their numbering system and their training methods, but honestly WC weapons can be trained in the same manner.

As a WC practitioner I'm sure you don't believe in flowery hands. So why practice flowery weapons? Practice enough and you learn to recognize a #1 angle regardless of what it is called. Fighting with weapons is much simpler than empty hand. A blade requires very little to wound compared to a fist and the pole transfers a lot of power into a small area. Usually the first person to make a mistake is dead. The real skill is gained from developing those intangibles.

Under a qualified Sifu, the weapons of WC are drilled just as rigorously as the filipino MA. The problem arises from the lack of qualified SIfu out there that can teach the weapon as a weapon and not some add on to the system to make $$.

I have numerous drills for the knives and pole for application purposes that were derived from the forms. Doing the forms is not enough. Pull the movements out of the forms and practice with a partner. Practice with and against different sized weapons.

Please explain to me how the filipino MA are better at weapons than WC because I just can't see it.

regards,

Dzu

[Watchman]

Excellent posts Dzu.

You have a good point: "Doing the forms is not enough. Pull the movements out of the forms and practice with a partner."

Weapons should be seen in the same light as your empty hand training - chi sau is what makes your empty hand forms "alive", and the same goes for chi kwan and chi do.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[whippinghand]

Yes, typically weapons in Wing Chun are secondary, because previous generations have made them as such. This is why Wing Chun is deemed an "open hand" style. IT IS NOT.

[Martial Joe]

Weapons in WC are very important.
They really help your foot work.

[Armin]

Hi!

I just remember a course held by Keith Kernspecht (WT). He was asked, if he was to fight against Bill Newman or Rene Latosa, who would win?

His answer was: If they would fight without weapons he would win, if they would fight with weapons they would win! Why? Very easy answer: He trains about 7 hours per day weaponless applications and only 1 hour with weapons. They train 7 hours per day with weapons and only 1 hour without.

Now take a look at Wing Chun: There are three weaponless/partnerless forms, one wooden-dummy form and two weapon-forms. That makes four to two - 33 % of Wing Chun (ok, I know - most movements are possibly done with weapons).

I think the biggest problem one faces when using knifes is the fact, that you have to skip most of the core elements of Wing Chun. Ever tried to feel and control a knife-attack? This will leave a nice cut - there will be no Bong and Tan against a blade. BTW: I never heard of anything like "Chi-Dao" :D .

I think, that Wing Chun was built for fighting on the street against ambush-like attacks. But if you get attacked that way, you don't have enough time to pull a knife or to get a long-staff (except if you are a wandering monk :D ).

I think we can talk a lot about this problem, every lineage and person has his own opinion. But I think that we all share the same opinion: If you want to get out of a knife- or stick-situation, you got to know the possibilities and restrictions of these weapons.


Greetings,

Armin.

[EmptyCup]

ummm yeah, everything Armin says, I agree with :)

Training with heavy knives and a longassed pole might still allow you to adapt to using little knives and little sticks. But against somebody trained IN little knives AND little sticks??? I think not. Especially when wing chun IS a predominantly empty-hand system that ENCOMPASSES weapons. Our weapons are merely extensions of our hand techniques. THEIR weapons techniques ARE just based on the movements of the weapons alone. For those who question, go down to your local filipino martial arts place, borrow two rattans, and proceed to get a rude awakening :) I doubt the pole's three techniques will help you at all...

[EmptyCup]

against experienced knife fighters, or even beginners, the frontal facing thing will get all your major organs stabbed and sliced :)

Not to mention holding your weapons in front of you is a good way of getting disarmed...real knife fighters shield their knives with their body and front hand while chambering the weapon at the hip or temple. Try "feeling" fast, vicious thrusts and slices from a hard-to-clearly-see area...and good stick guys can beat your head more than 12 times a second with wrist flicking. I doubt we can block those with our techniques...

[Watchman]

>>>I doubt the pole's three techniques will help you at all...<<<

Uh, that's because the pole doesn't lend itself to the body dynamics required for single-hand weapons like escrima sticks. The Bot Cham Do covers this area.

I use escrima sticks in place of knives when practicing the Bot Cham Do and Chi Do a lot of times. I also practice Bot Cham Do drills (cutting, deflecting, footwork, etc.) with more common cutting weapons as well.

Like Whipping Hand said, you've got to look past the surface "techniques" and into the principles.

>>>Not to mention holding your weapons in front of you is a good way of getting disarmed<<<

Still looking at the form for static technique here. The only reason a weapon is held forward in the Bot Cham Do form is because there are TWO of them, and are trained to be used in conjunction. When only one weapon is held it takes the "Wu Do" position and is shielded.

>>>the frontal facing thing will get all your major organs stabbed and sliced<<<

I'm not sure what you mean by "frontal facing thing".

>>>I doubt we can block those with our techniques...<<<

That's because you aren't supposed to just stand there and block weapons attacks with your "techniques". That's why the bulk of the Bot Cham Do is taken up with footwork training and direct path cutting.

Armin,

>>>BTW: I never heard of anything like "Chi-Dao"<<<

Just because you've never heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. :D

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[This message was edited by Watchman on 07-24-01 at 10:51 PM.]

[dzu]

Hmm where to start...

1) Just because we have 4 empty hand forms vs only 2 weapons forms means nothing. They are merely stages of progression. Who says that your training time has to reflect the same proportion as the number of forms? If you want to train weapons all the time then what is stopping you? I go through phases in my training where I focus on empty hands or weapons only. Soemtimes I split the time. This argument is not a limitation of the system. What you put in is what you get out.

2) What core elements are missing using the weapons? Economy of motion? Body structure? Timing? Positioning? Maybe you are referring to all the 'trapping techniques'. Isn't the point of WC to use what is simple and efficient and not dwell on trapping unless there is a bridge created? My empty hands aren't flowery and neither are my weapons. I don't try to stick to the weapon I try to find the most direct path to hurt him.

3) I have trained in eskrima and I see no difference between what they do and what WC does other than training methods. They focus on more drills and less abstract forms. Their empty hands also reflect their weapons. Nothing is different.

4) The pole is not just a collection of techniques just as the empty hand sets aren't. Against equal skill and a wide open space, the longer weapon will win.

5) A knife is a knife is a knife. It was designed to cut and stab. Why would I waste time trying to block when I can cut his hand and end the fight immediately?

I'm sorry but some of these arguments make no sense to me. It's like saying that WC is inferior to karate because they spend more time doing partner drills.

The solution to this is to have a good Sifu who understands weapons and can show you how to extract applications from the forms. The forms are a summary of the system and nothing more. The real gung fu is earned on your own and with a partner.

regards,

Dzu

[mun hung]

I have a cousin who was an Arnis practitioner who fought in many Escrima matches, and always did very well in competition. One day he met up with an old friend who invited him to some friendly stick sparring. His friend amazed him with some unusually efficient stick techniques. He found he was constantly being disarmed by his friend. His friend happened to be a Wing Chun practitioner who was applying WC knife techniques to the stick.

My cousin now practices Wing Chun. ;)

I must agree with Whipping Hand that it is the Wing Chun principles behind the knives that are important. The application of these principals apply to both hands and knives.

IMHO, not alot of people know enough about the WC weapons to be able to judge or compare them. I think the problem is - lack of education. There are'nt alot of instructors who can teach true applications to them, and not enough students who are willing to stick around long enough to learn them. Without application - it becomes a Wushu form.

This, of course - is just my opinion.
:)

[mun hung]

Exellent post - dzu!

[whippinghand]

Keith would have lost in both cases. When you train weapons, you are training empty hands.

[whippinghand]

It's like DZU said, you've got to train them. If your weapons are lacking, don't complain about the weapons, TRAIN them. This is the kind of mentality that has causes weapons to be "secondary" to the system.

[EmptyCup]

I'm sorry fellas but I'm still not convinced. Now since you guys are already set in your views and I'm set in mine, I think I'm going to stop my side of the discussion since it won't get us anywhere :)

OK?

[EmptyCup]

I believe your story. But that's the exception, not the rule :)

That's like using one example of a martial artist being beaten by an untrained 10 year old...that doesn't mean all 10 year olds can beat martial artists. In most cases, I'd think the martial artist would win...unless of course, he's a 2 year old :)

[whippinghand]

Perhaps you should change your alias.

[Ars vitae]

I agree, along with the topic. Unless of course you really want to arfue the point more on training your tools to work as efficiently as possible.

[Armin]

Hi!

To Dzu and Whipping Hand: Theoretically you're right. I'd recommend you, to take a look at the two videos about knife-surviving by Marc "Animal" McYoung. There you'll see how much of your Wing Chun will be of use in a knife-situation.

I see it like this: Any given style just teaches you some theoretical advices how you could handle a weapon-situation, it's not: should or will. But the idea of the advice you learn, is how to e. g. get out of a knife-attack when you're unarmed without getting killed - you'll get hurt anyway. It's just a question of limiting the hurts you get. Not more, not less.

And if you are realistically, and I belive you are, than you have to admitt, that even when you are armed too, the chances of surviving a weapon-fight are only slightly better than unarmed.

My Eskrima-teacher (maybe you know him: Sifu Heinrich Pfaff from the EWTO) once told us, that, if you are untrained with weapons, you got a 50 % chance of winning a fight ("winning" means: he gets hurt more than you). If you are trained with weapons your chance changes to not more than 51 %. And everyone that has trained e. g. Eskrima with a beginner will tell, that I'm right. There's nothing mopre dangerous than a beginner with a weapon in a hand.

So, this was my last statement to this discussion - as I said, everyone has his own opinion and without putting the stuff to the test and showing what you mean, I feel, there's no sense of this. Sorry.


Armin.

[dzu]

My point is that many WC practitioners perceive a weakness in weapons training and then incorporate eskrima training as a substitute. A better alternative would be to ask their Sifu about the WC weapons and if a response is given that is questionable, consider changing Sifu. I am not unrealistic about weapons work. I expect to be cut in a knife fight and hit in a fist fight regardless of whether I use WC or eskrima.

Nobody in this thread has claimed that the WC weapons were superior to eskrima. However, there are some people that think the WC weapons are inferior to eskrima and that is what I have an issue with. My statement is that the WC weapons are no better and no worse. The system simply is, and it is up to the Sifu and the student to make the most of it and discover what the universal truths to fighting are.

regards,

Dzu

[whippinghand]

Train the Wing Chun weapons, before you criticize, or don't say you know Wing Chun, at all. To know Wing Chun is to understand it's entirety. That includes weapons. If you want to focus on the hands. Fine, then let's clarify... You train Wing Chun hands; not Wing Chun. Enough of this crap about Wing Chun weapons being inferior. The only thing inferior is the people who don't train them, to understand them.

[Armin]

Hi!

To Whipping Hand: Did I say that? Please re-read my posts.


Armin.

[Armin]

I read my last posts and, ok, they're misunderstandable.

What I meant was, that it really depends on the amount of time you spend training weapons. Most south-east-asia styles spend nearly all the time on weapons, how much do we in Wing Chun? I'd say it's less.


Armin.

[whippinghand]

Ask how much YOU train weapons? And ask yourself how that contributes to the above notion.

[Roy]

How much faster are your escrima techniques than your WC weapons techniques?

[weakstudent]

i'm a little late but heres what i think
weapons are are inportant one is they build strenght two dexterity, and i disagree that these weapons can't be applied in the street. example
i think you can apply the butterfly knives priciples to anything you could hold in each hand
as for the long pole. someone in the post said something to the affect of northern pole techniques are better more power etc. southern techniques are striking with one end like a spear
well how about lets say an average broom stick
very easly broken if swung like a baseball bat
aka something like northern pole. and also easy to block . now try using it like a spear ala southern pole same broom stick will be stronger and harder to block. just my opinion

nelson

[Slayer]

You still have to remember, the weapon in use is only as good as the person using it.

[EmptyCup]

...and the techniques he learned...

[wtsihing]

The Cat taught my teacher at the Castle for four years before he moved to California to open his own schools. I am his 'senior' student and teach three of the school's locations.

Whipping Hand, you undoubtedly possess knowledge. You have made that plain. You remind me of a sihing I once had. Smart guy, lots talent, but has yet to 'understand it in it's entirety'.

I miss him sometimes.

[Sharky]

WH knows what he's talking about, frustratingly

My anus is superior™

[Scott]

I totally agree with Empty Cup.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[lotus kick]

the more time a person trains with a weapon for combat uses, the more likely that this person will be dependent on the weapon during combat.

[mun hung]

please elaborate

[jesper]

Just to clarify, I train both.
What I find is that the escrimador typically is better at armed combat than the WT quy. Is that because Escrima is better, absolutely not. Its simply a matter of the time spend training. Where the WT student starts with unarmed combat and thereafter progress to armed combat (for most people a secondary thing), an escrimador will train with weapons from day one. Thereby the stick/knife/axe/whatever is an integrated part of his fighting.
Also most escrimadors have sparring matches with padded sticks which really helps building a solid fighting potential. Most WT weapons training is about forms, and not many people do actual fighting. That a shame.

[mun hung]

In regards to the knives (BJD) - IMHO, I think if the WC practitioner spent an equal amount of time training practical fighting applications with them, he would fare better than the Escrima practitioner. Why? They are just expressions of the hand. The theories and principals are the same and can be applied to many things.

[whippinghand]

start training

[lotus kick]

lets say you been training for combat with knives. Then you get in to a unarmed combat few days later. what do you think would be the first thing that goes through your mind?

[chi-kwai]

what Mun Hun is saying, i believe, is that because the knife form is taken directly from the empty hand techniques, there should be little problem going from knives to fists. training knives is just learning to put new spin on what you already know.

you shouldn't be learning knives until you are proficient without them first.

--
chi kwai

[mun hung]

Whipping Hand - sound advise.

lotus kick - that scenario sounds like a situation alot of Escrima fighters might find themselves in.

What would I do? Use my own weapons.

chi kwai - thank you.

[lotus kick]

-- how is your point fits in to my? I'm talking about thinking patterns a person goes through between training and real life situation when using weapons.

Mun hug -- weapons creates dependency. make your body into the best weapon it can be first, then the dependency will be gone. Thats what WING CHUN is for.

[Sharky]

"make your body into the best weapon it can be first, then the dependency will be gone" lotus kick

"you shouldn't be learning knives until you are proficient without them first." chi kwai

================================================== =
The battle started with a grapple, he had real long hair so a grabbed a hand full, and chopped 'em in the Adams-apple, his partner in back of you tried to attack you, so I'ma twist 'em up like a pret-zel then I'ma tag you/I can't believe he wanna grapple again, I swung 'em around like I was dancing wit 'em, put his arms in back of his head and snapped 'em again, I fractured his limbs and put em in the figure-"6 subtracted from 10"...

[mun hung]

I don't think you understood me at all. :confused:

[mun hung]

BTW - it's not mun hug! :mad:

[lotus kick]

sorry about the spelling error.
If you say i didn't understand you, then what are you triing to tell me?

[chi-kwai]

you may call me chi kee! ;) :D

--
chi kwai

[sunkuen]

LMFAO!!!!

[lotus kick]

you still haven't answered my quetion.

[chi-kwai]

Because I didn't feel the need to answer your question. You didn't comprehend what I wrote the first time, I didn't want to waste effort.

--
chi kwai

[lotus kick]

what ever,

also, stop calling me lettuce kix.

[Roy D. Anthony]

Chi Kwai, do I understand that you feel that a Lotus Kick is a Lettuce kick? as in not of any value?