Why is it that WC needs to learn grappling but grapplers don't need to learn WC?

[YongChun]

Why is it that Wing Chun people need to learn about grappling but grappling people don't need to learn about Wing Chun?

I once talked to a Wing Chun teacher who also taught Capoeira. He said Wing Chun people could handle Capoeira if they understood it. However Capoeira people didn't need to learn about Wing Chun to handle Wing Chun.

In the Hong Kong days, Wing Chun people had success against the other Kung Fu systems without having to learn about those systems. (probably open to debate since Western boxers do study the tactics of other boxers).

Of course on the other hand it's always good to learn as much as one can about any kind of fighting if one has the time. Then again one has to weigh the benefits of training say 10 hours of Wing Chun vs 5 hours of Wing Chun and 5 hours of BJJ or 5 hours WC or 2 hours BJJ and 2 hours Thai boxing and one hour of Escrima.

I would say it's all about balance. Of course those who can fit in a lot are better off.

[Ernie]

The experiment has been done

what happened when the Wing chun guys went up against the Thai guys back in the early days

the wing chun guys got mopped

only after haveing this experience and revamping the training did the start to hold there own

BJJ Thai , boxers and so on don't need to worry about wing chun guys be cause these fighters , train and fight each other , they fight '' the man'' not the style

they build themselves up to the point were they trust there ability to perform against what ever is infront of them

win or lose


funny your right i have never heard a boxer wonder about dealing with a pak sau

but always hear a wing chun person wonder how to deal with a jab


great post

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by YongChun
Why is it that Wing Chun people need to learn about grappling but grappling people don't need to learn about Wing Chun?.....


ABSTRACTED FROM THE JOURNAL OF A MAD MAN. ( hey, this doesnt reflect my view. :D)


In a General view,

Because in Wing Chun's Localization Evolution of the past few decades, as early as 1940, Wing Chun some how make a wrong turn consciously or unconsciously or flow with the market....etc

in early/mid 1980's this crack has shown up in an unfortunate accident incident but ignored or not solve in the root level.
In late 1990s, unless the root structure has another Localization Evolution it doesnt fix the core issue, some see the issues and try to evolve it but the localization evolution doesnt goes deep enought. In 2000, it is too late for some, thus, some is force to learn other arts to compensate the system.

And what happen will cost Wing Chun to bleed big time.

That wrong turn, That is the SECRET:D IMHO.

Some might ask "what is the .... pretend...."
Hahaha, there are twenty years of data shown that wrong turn. that secret.

well, just my "pretending fantasy" OPINION. I know nothing ofcorse. But if my Model is right, then watch for the day after effect like what that recent movie shows. Wing Chun become Winter.

So, what is the core issue? :D

Guess.

Remember the Tien Dei Yan? There lie a big secret of this wrong turn.




--------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont have every individual personal best figther, opps investors, experience but statistic can predict the trend and help find the root cause. must be scientific isnt it? I dont have any skill but my model might be critical. lets pray that I am wrong. :D:D:D:D

[Knifefighter]

Grapplers don't necessarily need to learn WC, per se, but it is usually advisable for them to learn some type of standup striking game. Many grapplers supplement their training with boxing and/or Muay Thai.

[sihing]

Yes good post. When people in WC worry about this art or that art or technique, they are really saying IMO they are not very confident in the WC they learned or their individual skills with it. There's no magic formula here, but allot of the practiconers of old probably relied on the reputation developed by others, to whom actually put in the required work to make WC effective. All MA need work, and practice and understanding to make them effective to any level of competence.

I post less and less on forum's like this for exactly the reason you Ray started this thread. It seems like the concensus on this WC forum, and others, is that WC is inadequate in the relem of self-defense and fighting, and that to really have this ability you have to cross training for hours and months in other MA to have any real ability to fight/defend one's self. Recently, one of the instructors in our association, meet and discussed MA with Dan Inosanto at a seminar. The instructor told Dan that we have groundfighting in our WC and Dan thought he knew what we were talking about, but after the instructor showed Dan some of the techniuqes and concepts behind what we were doing Dan told the instructor that he was really impressed with the tech demonstrated and stated that he didn't realize that WC had these techniques within the system. Once in awhile it's nice to hear things like this from a person recognized in the public as an authority in MA, to reafirm what we are all learning and teaching to others as effective MA.


James

[AmanuJRY]

I agree with Knifefighter. Most grappling arts cross with some stand-up art, just because it's not WC doesn't mean that it's not something else.

"Why is it that WC (specific art) needs to learn grappling (general genre) but grapplers (general) don't need to learn WC (specific)?"

We need to view these either in the general - Why does a stand up fighter need to study grappling, but grapplers don't neet to study stand up fighting? or Why does a WC person need to study BJJ, but a BJJ doesn't need to study WC?

The answer to the latter is obvious (more or less), and the answer to the previous is, they do.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Recently, one of the instructors in our association, meet and discussed MA with Dan Inosanto at a seminar. The instructor told Dan that we have groundfighting in our WC and Dan thought he knew what we were talking about, but after the instructor showed Dan some of the techniuqes and concepts behind what we were doing Dan told the instructor that he was really impressed with the tech demonstrated and stated that he didn't realize that WC had these techniques within the system.Dan has been involved in martial arts and WC for 40+ years. Don't you think he would already be familiar with any groundfighiting techs from WC?

I've known Dan for 25 years and he is one of the world's nicest people. Even if the instructor showed techniques shown were complete crap, he would never be less than complementary towards him.

[Tom Kagan]

Good question.

If someone want to learn grappling in detail, why not? If it interests them, there is nothing wrong with that. But wanting to study a subject in great detail is quite different than needing to study it in great detail.

If a Ving Tsun practitioner is any good, he or she does not need to learn additional arts in great detail. But, that statement just begs an additional question: How does a practitioner find out if their skills are any good? The answer is quite simple: An appropriate check of skills is what is required.

In deciding to study an additional viable art in great detail, a misunderstanding can arise all too easily: if a practitioner picks an art (or teacher) which already has the appropriate methods in place to check the student's skill set, there is a large risk that the student will think that the overall art is the reason for their performance improvement, when, in reality, it's just the one piece - the skill checks - that was previously missing.

In my opinion, the Ving Tsun method of testing skills - the MaaiSungJohng - is sorely neglected in many Ving Tsun school's curricula. I believe the loss of viable venues for a MaaiSungJohng is a major contributor why why many Ving Tsun practitioners have doubt about where they stand with respect their skill set. (Another major contributor would be the lack of knowledge on the part of a SiFu as to what would be an appropriate test for a given skill level). It is the doubt within the practitioner which leads them to believe that what is they are learning needs to be supplemented by studying an additional art in great detail.


[Please note my repeated use of the phrase "in great detail". Obviously, any practitioner from any art may find it quite useful to familiarize themselves with who and/or with what they might cross paths.]

[sihing]

Quote Knifefighter:
"Dan has been involved in martial arts and WC for 40+ years. Don't you think he would already be familiar with any groundfighiting techs from WC?"

Not necessarily, it depends if Dan completed the WC system from start to finish and also from who he learned it from. Like I said in my post, I'm sure Dan has his ideas about WC and the art's groundgrappling tech, but obviously here he had never seen anything like what the instructor showed him. Yeah Dan could have been just being nice to him, but who know's? Maybe he was impressed by what he saw. For me I could care less about what he thinks or doesn't think(or anyone else) about the ground tech's that were shown to him. I have faith in them and that's all that matters for me. I was just using this story as a example.

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
For me I could care less about what he thinks or doesn't think(or anyone else) about the ground tech's that were shown to him. James,
You cared enough to post it....example or not.
Don't take this the wrong way. My point is that when you name-drop in this forum, there are a lot of people who know a lot of other people, if you catch my drift. The world is indeed getting smaller.

Peace,

[anerlich]

Knifefighter is correct. Almost every grappling school here in Oz also teaches MT and/or boxing, though there are other KF schools and at least one Hapkido school like our own that teach a grappling art as well.

Dan Inosanto spent a lot of time with sihing's instructor's WC Sifu, William Cheung, appearing in photographs in several of his books. Mr Cheung also put out a book with Ted Wong comparing JKD and TWC. I suspect Dan would have seen the groundfighting techniques from the horse's mouth (excuse mixed metaphors) at some stage. My first instructor, David Crook, trained with William Cheung in the late sixties and learned the TWC groundfighting, and FWIW, hosted Dan Inosanto for several seminar tours here. Dan's continued to train with the Machados, so the nameless instructor's revelatory demonstration didn't exactly bring about a paradigm shift.

Anyway, Knifefighter is right about the namedropping, a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority".



When people in WC worry about this art or that art or technique, they are really saying IMO they are not very confident in the WC they learned or their individual skills with it.

I'm not "worried" about anything. It's getting pretty old to have it implied that because I enjoy other arts, and feel they have value, that I'm somehow a traitor or heretic to the Wing Chun cause, or that I've "lost faith" in it, or that my teacher's instruction or knowledge is somehow inferior.

If practicing a style requires a level of unswerving and uncritical devotion matched only by that of Al Qaeda members, then I want no part of it.

BJJ's fun. I enjoy it. I like WC too. I like to put on gloves and box.

If I am so concerned about combat effectiveness and nothing else, then I'd probably have given it all up 13 years ago like sihing said he would on another thread. I'd be carrying multiple concealed firearms and knives everywhere I went and forget this H2H combat rubbish. But that's no way to live.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
I'm not "worried" about anything. It's getting pretty old to have it implied that because I enjoy other arts, and feel they have value, that I'm somehow a traitor or heretic to the Wing Chun cause, or that I've "lost faith" in it, or that my teacher's instruction or knowledge is somehow inferior.

If practicing a style requires a level of unswerving and uncritical devotion matched only by that of Al Qaeda members, then I want no part of it.

BJJ's fun. I enjoy it. I like WC too. I like to put on gloves and box.

If I am so concerned about combat effectiveness and nothing else, then I'd probably have given it all up 13 years ago like sihing said he would on another thread. I'd be carrying multiple concealed firearms and knives everywhere I went and forget this H2H combat rubbish. But that's no way to live.

Dude, my sentiments.......exactly.:D

[sihing]

Well to each there own. By the way anerlich, I never said that my Sifu learned the ground fighting from GM Cheung and his TWC. Maybe he discovered it all on his own, from his own experiences which is over the last 40+yrs, and saw it clearly in the Wing Chun system back in the 70's and 80's. Also, I was not personally referring to you when I stated that some people in the WC world worry too much about other styles and techniques. If you enjoy your training in other MA then great for you. What I have a problem with on this forum is that some believe and state as fact that to actually obtain realistic fighting ability one has to cross train to learn about "ALL" ranges of combat. I do not adhere to this philosophy, and I think I am entitled to an opinion just like everyone else.

I think my point was missed by some on this forum. My point was simply that WC has the grappling technique already in the system. My use of an experience one of my fellow instructors had with a popular and skillful Martial artist was just to show that what some cannot see, others can. Mr. Inosanto was surprised by what he saw the instructor demonstrate and also commented that these types of techniques are not generally taught in WC schools. To me a statement like that means he doesn't expect a WC player to have ground fighting in his repertoire. This is not true. Once again, not all WC is the same or equal.

James

[AdrianUK]

Why do Grapplers (generalisation) not need to learn WC ?

At the risk of a flaming here, I would guess its because its fairly easy for a grappler to close and clinch / take down, compared to stopping a clinch / takedown, especially with a weight disparity, personally I have no faith in the WC I train stopping a proper takedown attempt, and I have never seen it demonstrated to work either

Regards,
Adrian

[sihing]

Like I said, not all WC is equal or the same. Since you have no faith in your WC in stopping a properly attempted takedown, then I recommend another type of WC....

[Miles Teg]

Good topic!
Just as stated above though, youre not making a fair comparison. "Grapplers learning W.C" verses "wing chuners learning grappling"? Yes, you should be saying grappling verses stand up styles and yes grapplers learn stand up styles.


What Ive noticed in pride these days is that you have to be a TOP and I mean TOP striker be able to repel tak edown attempts. A good example is Milcrocop (spelling?? you know, the Croatian guy). Hes really the top striker in his league and Pride athletes have a tough time taking him down without getting knocked pretty bad.

The other thing Ive noticed in pride is that there are now way more athletes that are strong strikers as well as strong grapplers. I think it is an evolution. These days the pure grapplers are not doing so well in Pride. They MUST have good striking skills as well. Theres no reason why W.C shouldnt work as the chosen striking art though. Its just that nobody has done it yet. Just like no Tae Kwon DO guy has come out on top yet.

[Tydive]

I really don't get all this concern over grappeling. In an environment where you don't want to hurt somebody there are some strong advantages to the person who has good ground work... but if you are willing to maim the attacker, let me point you toward the knees and eyes.

It is very difficult to keep someone off you if they are willing to take a few hits on the way in. Keep in mind that if someone is properly grounded your punches will have much less impact than you would expect. Your job is to have good enough footwork to hit them and not let them get a grip.

From what I have seen the sticky hands practice is about not letting the other person get a solid hold on you and controlling their center. The exact same rolling movements that you use in your roll off strikes can break a grip.

A little history here, I started out learning mainly striking arts. After 13 years of those I decided to check out Judo and Aikido because I wanted to be able to control a fight without having to break somebody to do it. That is what I see as the real advantage of the grappeling arts.

What excites me about Wing Chun is that I can see how easy it will be to extend the strikes/blocks into traps, locks, bars and all kinds of fun takedowns/throws. Well, that and I am an Epee fencer and can't help but attack into preperation.

Can't you see that in WC you can attack the hands and arms, driving them into the grapplers center, controling them with kicks to the legs. My mind boggles at all the cool stuff you can do, and I don't know much about WC.

This is a very clean MA with very simple movements, discovering the "what comes next" is where JKD, Kenpo and other MMA's come from. Or you can just view those extensions as part of your training that should come after you master the basics of WC.

[AdrianUK]

Sihing,

Like I said in the post I have never seen someone defend a takedown attempt with anything from WC/WT/VT etc, only with a sprawl. If someone out there has footage of a successfull workable defence then I would love to see it And I mean footage against someone really going for it, not the lame unskilled attempts you tend to work with in a class.

Adrian

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Theres no reason why W.C shouldnt work as the chosen striking art though. Its just that nobody has done it yet. Just like no Tae Kwon DO guy has come out on top yet. Ouch! That comparison hurts. ;)

Seriously though, your comments on the evolution of the arts is well taken.

Peace,

[old jong]

I think it is an evolution. These days the pure grapplers are not doing so well in Pride. They MUST have good striking skills as well.

IMO, good defensive skills vs strikes is more important.How many times do we see grapplers (in nhb events) trying to trade punches vs a good striker and get knocked out for it.


Like I said in the post I have never seen someone defend a takedown attempt with anything from WC/WT/VT etc, only with a sprawl.

Good strikers like Crocop or others often have a good knowledge on how to defend vs takedowns.They will not try to compete with pure grapplers in submissions.They mostly nullify the takedown attempt and strike effectively after.
I agree that the sprawll is the best defense for takedowns and it is easy to learn and turn into a reflex action.It makes for a perfect "Biu Gee" action!...;) ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
Why do Grapplers (generalisation) not need to learn WC ?

At the risk of a flaming here, I would guess its because its fairly easy for a grappler to close and clinch / take down, compared to stopping a clinch / takedown, especially with a weight disparity, personally I have no faith in the WC I train stopping a proper takedown attempt, and I have never seen it demonstrated to work either

Regards,
Adrian

I have more faith in my ability to stop a takedown than to accept it and grapple with the person, and find it more imperetive to do so against a larger opponent.

True, there aren't many demonstrations of this working, that doesn't mean it hasn't or will not work. I have seen demonstrations (live) of concepts proposed by 'famous' WCers, and have faith in what I witnessed.

My statement would be how much has the grappler trained takedowns vs. how much have you trained defending them?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by old jong
IMO, good defensive skills vs strikes is more important. The best defence is a good offence. Attack the attack.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I have more faith in my ability to stop a takedown than to accept it and grapple with the person, and find it more imperetive to do so against a larger opponent.



may be we dont have to think this way? there might be other alternative?

Different thinking yield different solution right?


Metal can destroy wood, fire destroy metal, water put out fire, earth stop water,...... never end why limiting one's view? when the times come thing will be solved.

[AmanuJRY]

Hendrik,

Grappling with a grappler who is larger/stronger than you is like trying to destroy a larger piece of wood with a smaller piece of wood, or a stronger piece of metal with a weaker piece of metal.


If I don't want to 'think' of grappling a grappler and I don't want to 'think' of stoping a grappler with other techniques...what other way is there to think of???

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY


If I don't want to 'think' of grappling a grappler and I don't want to 'think' of stoping a grappler with other techniques...what other way is there to think of???


lead him to extend and takes away his limb.......?

what is your weapon?
Can your weapon damage him ?
how much destruction?
What threaten him?

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
lead him to extend and takes away his limb.......?

That would fall into the catagory of 'stoping a grappler with other techniques', right?

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
That would fall into the catagory of 'stoping a grappler with other techniques', right?

nope, IMHO,


blown the car's steelling wheel and lead the car to crash with its own momentum......

But one has to have that weapon strong enough to blow that steeling wheel. Do we have that? or have we develop that?

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
nope, IMHO,


blown the car's steelling wheel and lead the car to crash with its own momentum......

But one has to have that weapon strong enough to blow that steeling wheel. Do we have that? or have we develop that?


Using a technique, other than grappling to deal with a grappler.

That is precisely what you are describing.

IMHO, you are being beligerant.


But one has to have that weapon (technique)strong enough to blow that steeling wheel. Do we have that? or have we develop that?

blown the car's steelling wheel and lead the car to crash with its own momentum......(other than grappling)

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY


IMHO, you are being beligerant.


) [/B]

being an Asura is nice sometimes. :D
But one has to be in peace and silence to wage war.

to wage war, the mission is mass destruction. That is very different then having fun with friends and mutually learn things.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
being an Asura is nice sometimes. :D
But one has to be in peace and silence to wage war.

to wage war, the mission is mass destruction. That is very different then having fun with friends and mutually learn things.

I'm not sure what an Asura is.

If your having fun, then have your fun. Engaging in pointless discussion is neither fun nor educational to me. Taking on the role of devil's advocate can be fun and educational if it is with the purpose of directing the converstion in a positive direction. Blatant contradiction of oneself is not productive in any way for you or anyone else sharing with you.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
I'm not sure what an Asura is.

If your having fun, then have your fun. Engaging in pointless discussion is neither fun nor educational to me. Taking on the role of devil's advocate can be fun and educational if it is with the purpose of directing the converstion in a positive direction. Blatant contradiction of oneself is not productive in any way for you or anyone else sharing with you.


You know, purpose varies person to person, role to role.

Fantasy, desire, for the poet is a wasting of time of some CEO.
But then, Fantasy and desire can be a fertelize for creativity for next generation.


reality is a paradox. what sometimes seems to be contradiction is actually not.

As the ancient Indian said, until the 4th Chakra open, one will keep practice judgmental from one angle. then again, who is saint? who is perfect? we all just human.

and the world always carry on in the way of SiVa's dance, destruction one side creation on the other. ending is begining. That indeed is difficult to perceive and accept with linear vertical thinking, it needs a non linear lateral thinking which be able to travel the time-space discontinuoity to see throught the trap of popular trend.


like the monkey experiments, once one monkey see a way to wash the sandy coconut in the river, all monkeys will know in a short time.
before the monkey find out to wash the sandy coconut, all monkey stuck.

just some drunken blue sky thoughts.

[AmanuJRY]

You shouldn't drink so early in the day.:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
You shouldn't drink so early in the day.:D

hehehehe hahahaha open your heart! :D

[Ultimatewingchun]

As some have said (or intimated) already...wing chun could do fine against grapplers (UFC, Pride)...but it just hasn't been tried yet.

As long as some grappling has been trained along with the WC.

Because real fighting is also about fighting in the clinch, as well as on the ground - not just standup striking/kicking/sweeping...and the occasional standing arm or wrist lock. (ie.- wing chun)

And although the sprawl is an excellent move - it too has it's limitations (as Cro Cop found out against Minotauro).

How awesome would Cro Cop be if he could also grapple well?

Get my drift?

Fighting is about everything - not just about a few things.

The more weapons you have in your arsenal - and the more you can use all those weapons WELL...and in a coherent and seamless manner...

the better fighter you are.

Period.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun

Fighting is about everything - not just about a few things.

The more weapons you have in your arsenal - and the more you can use all those weapons WELL...and in a coherent and seamless manner...

the better fighter you are.

Period.

True

I thought it is Winning is about everything. :D

[sihing]

Victor,
Your statement is true, the more weapons you have the better you will be, like the armed forces there in the good ole USA, they have access to every type of weapon available today, as compared to us up here in Canada, we have a more limited availability to weapons due to financial concerns. The problem is that it may take a long time and require allot of effort to actually gain the proficiency required to use all of these "delivery systems". Not all of us have the time or the desire to put in the effort to make this possible. So what does one do? Well I would recommend that it's better to be a master of one, than to be a jack of all trades, but be aware of these other trades and learn about there tactics and techniques. As someone that hasn't crossed trained in any other MA besides my WC training, I'm I at a disadvantage? Well I would have to admit that if I was stranded on a desert Island for the last 15yrs and had no exposure to the media and therefore no exposure to other MA ideas and techniques then yeah maybe I would be disadvantaged, but since that is not the case I would have to say no I am NOT disadvantaged. Obviously opinions will vary about my above statement, but no one knows exactly what I have been exposed to or what my training has actually entailed except myself, even though on paper it looks simple. Like I said earlier in this thread, a top notch JKD instructor was surprised by the ground fighting demonstrated by a fellow instructor in my association, on paper we weren't supposed to know that kind of stuff, but we do.


James

[AmanuJRY]

I think the important element in this issue is, regardless of how one goes about it (training in a grappling art or developing technique from your chosen art) a MAist needs to address the grappling/groundfighting range. Just as a grappler needs to address the other ranges of fighting.

[sihing]

agreed....