7 Star forms

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Can anyone help , why is it that the Hong Kong lineage lists many more forms than the lineages of mainland China ? nearly double ?

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

It depends upon the lineage of HK 7*. Some have more forms than others.

The question is a tough one. Many HK practitioners hold that they have the art as passed down from Fan Xudong, the original 7* and the mainland lost forms. Others (mostly mainland practitioners) hold that Luo Guangyu changed the curriculum and created new sets to reflect that innovation.

Even among HK practitioners it is said that some teachers in Luo Guangyu's lineage invented forms and that others dropped forms.

All that to say the debate is a hard and contentious one but those are the sides I have heard. Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Hello,

the same conclusion like Mantisifu I got.

In the past I was wondering about the different curricili too. But now I think: what the problem?
You decide to follow your Master and he teach you what he knows. Normally it will last a livetime, no matter if it 25 forms or 100!
Instead of thinking about the other forms, that you don´t have in your linage, you should train the ones you got even more harder!

There are no secrets and no dooropener in just the forms you don´t got in your curriculum. Its all in your own system - you have to open your eyes, thats all.

Thats what I think today. (I don´t mean a special person, I want to describe the situation!)

[ursa major]

Hello FEELERSTRIKE,

I agree with Sifu Cottrell and GBL.

What I have witnessed in the CMA community is a trend towards increased credibility being granted a line depending upon the number of forms known and practiced by that line. Our assumption, our supposition is that the more forms known and practiced the greater the knowledge of the system in that line. The number of forms in a line should not be a litmus test for credibility.

What I have found is this -- some lines have tremendous fighting traditions while others enjoy somewhat lesser fighting traditions and it usually has nothing to do with the number of forms known and practiced by that line.

I have found that I can only study one form at a time.

Best Regards,
UM.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Many thanks to your replies MantisifuFW , GermanBaiLung and ursamajor , hello to you all from the U.K. I was never concerned with the amount of forms in our lineage I have always learnt what my Sifu has taught me . He is the best judge of my abilities .
It was just strange to see that most of the sites for the mainland lineages list only a small amount of forms where as we are a mainland lineage and yet we have many more forms . It made me wonder if nowadays the mainland is concentrating on certain forms only . Again many thanks for your thoughts and knowledge on this subject . We don't get the chance to mix much with the wider P M community . I hope in the future this can be corrected .
( I look forward to the new issue of Mantis Quarterly , keep up the good work mantisifuFW )

[MantisifuFW]

UM, GBL,

Thank you for making an excellent point. FS, IMHO only, Tanglang is a boxing art that is composed of techniques and principles. When they are followed and trained at to an adequate degree of physical ability, one does Tanglang. The set that one might play is an expression of that boxing art in a single given setting. Can one draw lessons from beyond the set? Yes, but that will ential going back to the principles and techniques of Tanglang to interpret what might be done.

On the other hand, there are some who interpret the system from the sets outward; seeing the sets as the expressions of masters for future generations. These are usually the styles of Tanglang with more sets. I do not question this view's validity, I simply teach the way my teacher taught me because it seems both efficient and effective so I see no reason to change.

My sifu taught me that Tanglang predated and extended far beyond the sets. (Anyone having seen Lai Sifu play a set knows that he both valued them and excelled at their performance). So we practiced the techniques of Tanglang observing the expression of the principles in each and where they might, on occasion, mirrior the sets. Then we played the sets with an eye towards both technique and principle.

Anyway there's my lenghty .02USD on it.

STeve Cottrell

P.S. FS, thanks for the encouraging words. We just added a Tanglang school in HK who promise some interesting articles....

[FEELERSTRIKE]

My Sifu has always varied the forms taught to us rather than having a set list to learn so that the students can start with forms that are suitable for them so they can get a better grasp of what mantis boxing is about . I have seen to many people over the years who are fantastic form practitioners but who are unable to grasp the principles behind the moves and hence are unable to mantis box . Only in understanding the breakdown of the techniques in each form and why they can differ between forms can you really appreciate the art of mantis boxing . It is a lesson that has taken a long time for me to realise and only now I 'm starting to see why there are so many forms in the 7 star style .

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

Indeed, the value of sets as teaching and training tools is without question. I too vary the sets from year to year that I teach to students at each level in order to give insight into the whole of the system. Sometimes I teach a specific set to a student to help them with body mechanics or to facilitate training to accentuate a particular strength.

Great to talk to you,

Steve Cottrell

[German Bai Lung]

Hello Feelerstrike,
first a warm welcome here from germany.
Second, I tried to wrote my post so that everyone can understand that I don´t adress to someone specific. It was just my thoughts aboutthat topic. But sometimes my english is not good enough to make that thinks clear ... :(


Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
I have seen to many people over the years who are fantastic form practitioners but who are unable to grasp the principles behind the moves and hence are unable to mantis box . Only in understanding the breakdown of the techniques in each form and why they can differ between forms can you really appreciate the art of mantis boxing .

I slightly disagree. I see students and students in there best believe to perform a form good. But it was clear there are only beginners, no matter if they are training for 5 or 10 years. Why? Because they lack of understanding the applications and the principles. If you don´t understand these things you will always perform your forms on a lower level. There is no life in the forms, you will see nice moves, fast hands but no fighting! thats the difference.
Conclusion: there will be only fantastic form practitioners for a public with no insight, when the practitioner was unable to grasp the princeples behind the moves!
If you grasp the principles you will see this imediatly!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
FS,

It depends upon the lineage of HK 7*. Some have more forms than others.

The question is a tough one. Many HK practitioners hold that they have the art as passed down from Fan Xudong, the original 7* and the mainland lost forms. Others (mostly mainland practitioners) hold that Luo Guangyu changed the curriculum and created new sets to reflect that innovation.

Even among HK practitioners it is said that some teachers in Luo Guangyu's lineage invented forms and that others dropped forms.

All that to say the debate is a hard and contentious one but those are the sides I have heard. Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

drawing the same conclusions but maybe the drop out in mainland trace was related to the CR ( cultural revoloution and desrtuction of records) ??? Does anyone have dates on the form changes??

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Blooming Lotus I have been wondering that myself , I know that the forms we have are what our lineage has passed down from generation to generation and like most lineages our previous masters have adjusted some movements in the forms and we have some forms that were made up by our great grandmaster . Being a mainland lineage I started to wonder why we have more forms than the present mainland lineages list . Did forms get lost in the C R ? After watching the latest vcd's coming out of China they are so different from what we do and what I have seen before I have wondered if the forms have been standardised by the chinese government ?

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

The question you ask can only be answered by research that has access to traditional Quanpu, (the listings of forms in a system). Unfortunately many of the traditional Quanpu have been archived by the mainland government in an attempt to preserve deteriorating manuscripts. Others are closely held by their clans and are shown only to the most senior of the practitioners.

One can, at this point, only look at the evidence and use deductive reasoning. The problem is that this information is subject to our own bias. Such as, "Why does mainland Tanglang look so different from HK?"

The possible answers are:
1. They were corrupted by the influence of modern Wushu.
2. HK Tanglang was influenced by the converging of schools and styles that openly exchanged in that city's martial society.
3. LKY changed the system.

The debate still goes on today but take, for example, the difference in the height of stances. This kind of question can be answered by photographic evidence as was offered by the piotri of the Polish Mantis Boxing Society on this list. The picture was, I believe, from the 1960's and the master is Lin Jingshan, quite advanced in age. Lin Jingshan's stance is much lower than the HK verson commonly seen. At his age, after preserving the art for decades of Cultural Revolution pressure, I doubt that he adopted the Wushu verson for his last years. So, there is an indication that one master and probably his clan, had very low stances.

Some interesting facts to ponder:
1. Mainland Tanglang has no Mantis Exits the Cave and no Mantis Steals the Peach.

2. They do have many White Ape forms. Their White Ape Steals the Peach and our Mantis Steals the Peach are very similar. Our White Ape Steals Peach and Exits Cave look nothing like theirs.

3. On the mainland they have a saying "Mantis' don't steal peaches or exit caves". They believe that LKY invented the White Ape forms used by HK and then used the mainland Exits Cave and Steals the Peach as the basis for his "Mantis" forms.

So the debate on how things changed goes on in both places, only from different perspectives.

Hope it helps, (a little)

Steve Cottrell

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Thanks for your reply MantisifuFW , you have answered questions for me and made me ask others .
Is there a list available of the mainland China forms . After searching the internet I have found some forms listed but nothing on the different white ape forms that exist . This is what made me wonder . The H K lineages are happy to list their forms but the mainland lineages do not . Is there a list available of the forms that LKY is supposed to have created ? After years of being starved of information on this style I am know finding it more interesting than ever .

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

Please understand, for many schools of HK Tanglang the idea that LKY changed or innovated anything is heresy. I do not want to take a position on this thing just to avoid the eventual private emails that come along. Here are some of the theories I have been told and that you can investigate as you wish:

1. Mantis Exits Cave/ Steals Peach, HK version White Ape Exits Cave/ Steals Peach, Small Frame Fist, Large Frame Fist, Plum Flower Hand, Plum Flower Fist created by LKY. Also the the Luo Han Gong was added by Master Luo, Some say from the Shaolin temple, others say from Meihua or Taiji Meihua Tanglang.

I will say that they have not appeared in any listing of mainland 7*Tanglang I have seen. (This does not mean they are not there. I do not claim to have investigated fully).

2. All the "second route" sets of White Ape forms, Plum Flower sets, and the Plum Flower Palm and kick sets, the Silky Connected Palm and Elbow sets created by Chu Chi Man .

(My own investigation has only revealed that WHF and CHun Chin Yee's QUanpu are nearly identical with only those schools connected with CCM have these second routes or these other sets. They do not exist on the mainland in any school of Seven Star. What this means is up to the investigator and perhaps someone will produce evidence, (not more opinion, I have plenty of that on my own). :)

3. That the many White Ape sets on the mainland are a relatively new phenomena, (within the last 85 years or so). BTW that predates the Cultural Rev. by many years so they are not the result of "modern" influencesThey say the same thing about the sets listed above about LKY.

As I have said, the facts can be interpreted any way dependant upon one's vested interest, (a hard thing to avoid).

Best of luck,

Steve Cottrell

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
Thanks for your reply MantisifuFW , you have answered questions for me and made me ask others .
Is there a list available of the mainland China forms . After searching the internet I have found some forms listed but nothing on the different white ape forms that exist . This is what made me wonder . The H K lineages are happy to list their forms but the mainland lineages do not . Is there a list available of the forms that LKY is supposed to have created ? After years of being starved of information on this style I am know finding it more interesting than ever .

FS: sometimes you've gotta search, sub search tid - bits, relatives and so on....


I'm sure It's out there!! the mission is just finding it ;)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

Yes you're right the cultural revolution certainly killed of many things. But in terms of tracing the origins of the specise, it is actually a mish mesh web as opposed to a well formed bonsai tree.

Why, because, many teachers learn a variety of northern styles and they influence how they play their mantis.

But fortuantely, all northern kung fu is pretty similar. I hadn't been a big historian when I was prac. kung fu, just the ability to hit well and move well. Now that I have all the time on my hands I can afford to be more nostalgic.

[blooming lotus]

nostalgic nothing. When we're talking gongfu, to be serious, at some stage for accuracy and best information sake it becomes a point you need to work on. :cool:

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

I find kung fu to be rather messy. For example in the place where Northern mantis originated - in Shandong, it was a place for ruffians, pirates, sailors, bandits and the like. they brought with them all sorts of fighting styles. Mantis was then tested along the silk roads where it encountered different tribes men, even possibly Russians.

In the end, it comes down to good body movement. What ever, you decide to term it, be it chi or biomechanics suit yourself. When I did northern kung fu, I did what was practical and excluded the fancyful names.

But then again I'm always happy to stand corrected by blooming lotus :)

[MantisifuFW]

FS

To return to your original question, I did some looking at forms I have seen or heard of on the mainland. What I see is that Mainland 7* by my reconing has about 31+ forms. This is not far from the corpus of WHF Tanglang and CCY. The difference being that most HK Tanglang teaches drunken sets, and the 14 Roads of LKY where the mainland school has the Tan Tui 12 roads, other differences have been discussed such as the number of White Ape sets the absence of any second route sets and no Ba Zhou set.

We are far more alike than different-though it can be said that mainland 7* of all branches and in all cities is more alike than they are to HK Tanglang. The debate on who changed is for others to debate, I do not have an answer on that score as much as I have observations.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
blooming lotus,

I find kung fu to be rather messy. For example in the place where Northern mantis originated - in Shandong, it was a place for ruffians, pirates, sailors, bandits and the like. they brought with them all sorts of fighting styles. Mantis was then tested along the silk roads where it encountered different tribes men, even possibly Russians.

In the end, it comes down to good body movement. What ever, you decide to term it, be it chi or biomechanics suit yourself. When I did northern kung fu, I did what was practical and excluded the fancyful names.

But then again I'm always happy to stand corrected by blooming lotus :)

Ego!!

Stop loving my jazz so unbiasedly ha??!!! objectivity , even amongst those you seroiusly dig, is a ****her step to enlightenment and your own value!!

I realise that alot of styles went down and spread from here ( japan - sino war come CR period) and various places received various versions. It appears Hong Kong received ( re: - mantis and no doubt others) jazz we in the mainland no longer have circulating.


There's valid discussion here, but crux is that War and War brought change, mainland deprived of info and puzzle pieces all over.... can you put it back together on your own merit??? Now THAT is doing it real style :) ;) :D :)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

"Stop loving my jazz so unbiasedly ha??!!!"

You are one hell of a sax player!!!! Ha :)

To get back to the topic, if you want to put the real style back together you have to acknowledge the mess. You also cannot do so from a historian's point of view or be nostalgic doing form no. 98 and then form No. 99 and learning all the fancyful names. no no no.

You gotta train and feel the essence of the system ie. how it works in combat. In doing so, it might bring one tiny step to what the prac. of those days would be experience - given that our lives are much more sedate.

Maybe you could try training in some northern kung fu to get the experience. Again I'm happy to stand corrected.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by MantisifuFW
FS

To return to your original question, I did some looking at forms I have seen or heard of on the mainland. What I see is that Mainland 7* by my reconing has about 31+ forms. This is not far from the corpus of WHF Tanglang and CCY. The difference being that most HK Tanglang teaches drunken sets, and the 14 Roads of LKY where the mainland school has the Tan Tui 12 roads, other differences have been discussed such as the number of White Ape sets the absence of any second route sets and no Ba Zhou set.

We are far more alike than different-though it can be said that mainland 7* of all branches and in all cities is more alike than they are to HK Tanglang. The debate on who changed is for others to debate, I do not have an answer on that score as much as I have observations.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

there's a discussion going on in "lingo question " thread that also has some good links.

cheers

Ego.... :rolleyes:

[Oso]

There's valid discussion here, but crux is that War and War brought change, mainland deprived of info and puzzle pieces all over.... can you put it back together on your own merit???

good point and one that I think Master Shr made this past week in regards to the exodus of teachers from mainland China to Taiwan.

it's been scattered for sure and I think the most important thing is to make an effort to gather it all back again. but a lot of people will have to set aside their ego's for information to flow.

it's really not surprising when someone who has put their blood, sweat and tears into something HAS to hold on to it as 'the one true' style. It's a terrible loss when you discover what you've been doing for a long time is possibly not what you were told it was.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

OSO / BL,

For a long time, mantis has been passed on without firm records. In fact only the 1st form Bung Bu is consistent through out. The higher forms have their variations depending on which teacher you speak to.

So in coming down to what is the real deal, we look for the essence within the forms which should be shown in the fighting abilities of the students.

At the end of the day, people who train kung fu are fighters, that's just what we do. right?

[MantisifuFW]

EE,

I am intrigued by your observations concerning Bengbu as the only consistent set throughout 7*. Perhaps the matter is one of degree. Please understand that I in no way want to be in a debate, only to share my experience.

To begin with, my own experience is indeed limited as I have trained only a few times in Qingdao, Yantai and Shanghai Qixing Tanglang. But I found that the forms we had in common all had about the same degree of similarity in movement. Their Bengbu was different from ours but I immediately recognised it as such and found many common movments. The same goes for Cha Chui, Dou Gang, `1st and 2nd Route Essentials.

There are profound differences in the Bai Yuan sets but is made up with in simialities with their Bai Yuan and our Tanglang sets. I would be interested in the lines you investigated. Perhaps we explored different groups and I would be very interested in the differences.


Oso,
As for the exodus to Taiwan, the main group who went there were mostly practitioners from the Qingdao/ Laiyang group, (there might have been others but my research is incomplete in this area) and not all of the significant practitioners left that city either. Nearly all of them who did leave were of Meihua lineage. Though there was a brain drain in that area, it did not leave those remaining without masters of great knowledge and ability.

7* on the other hand, remained nearly entirely on the Mainland overall and preserved their line there. Hence there not being 7* populations in Taiwan or elsewhere besides the HK variety in any great number.

There are many problems in such research. One is the size of the sample and the number of oral and written histories the researcher can obtain. Work continues...

Hope it helps to have another perspective,

Steve Cottrell

[blooming lotus]

I'm sure you realise , but the "exodus" was not only to Taiwan but everywhere from KG / Japan ?> Us and ****her....... It is a definate mish to gather your facts vigilantly, but no doubt worth the reward, and for those that have been or are going there, everyone else 'd be seriuosly interested to hear a brief on your findings.

cheers maers:) :cool:

[MantisifuFW]

BL,

You are correct. Research will take time. Much of my work is built on the work of others and what I have been able to find out on my trips to China. Eventually I would like to explore the Japan connection particularly. What I have found so far is that Su Yu Cheong (of Taiwan) is probablly the father of the earliese Tanglang movement in Japan. However Sifu Phillip Man Chow of WHF line did a great deal at about the same time. So far, I have found no mainland influence soon after the revolution...but I am not finished by a long shot!

England has had early mainland influence but I have yet to do a lot of investigation there. It is the only mainland 7* I have found thus far in the early years.

That much remained on the mainland, however, is clear, however, with such knowledgable and powerful Tanglang men such as Ilya Profatilov and Brendan Tunks being the evidence.

Good point!

Steve Cottrell

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

MantisifuFW,

I guess its hard to explain fully in words unless you can see the demo infront of you. In Bung Bu, depending on which schools you go to some movements are emphasised more than in others. I'm not familar with the "essentials set", but I know depending on which teacher you go to they may emphasise on some forms and not others. However, I tend to break mantis down in terms of the usage as opposed to the number / names of forms. Tactics are covered in Bung Bu, then you'll probably deal with close in fighting and then chasing down opponents etc....

I tend to look compare forms as the 'text books' you may use at a particular school versus other schools. You may cover different forms but essentially learn the same content - that is the important part I think.

[MantisifuFW]

EE,

Understood. I also approach applications and combat as you have described. I guess in many ways I am a "button sorter" in terms of analysis of form. Part of the curse of trying to do research is that you focus hard on nuance when in that mode.

Great to make you acquaintence!

Steve Cottrell

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

MantisifuFW,

So if we put aside the names such as 7 star, 8 step, etc.... in your catalogue, how many distinct variations of mantis are there?

[FEELERSTRIKE]

I have always understood that the maternal mantis forms that the style originated from where beng bu , lan jie and ba zhou . If this is true , is ba zhou one of the missing mainland forms ?

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Our late Grandmaster was one who fled mainland China in 1949 to go to Taiwan before finally arriving in the U.K. in 1970 . THis is why I am interested in the 'missing mainland forms ' especially the maternal forms

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

By my research, from both HK sources and mainland, from Fan Xudong back, Qixing Tanglang Quan has had no set called Ba Zhou Quan. Does Qixing have eight elbows, short body strikes and short range strikes, indeed. By my research, it was added by Luo Guangyu.

My research is that from Luo Guangyu onward, HK Tanglang is a mixture of Qixing, Meihua and Guangbang Tanglang. As such there are versions of Bazhou Quan in HK that is not in Qixing Tanglang.

The questions about the origin and veracity of the legend and saying that Beng Bu, Lan Jie and Ba Zhou being the original sets are open to question. Some would immediately question the verse because some scholars hold that the name Lan Jie "Obstruct" is actually Luan Jie "Chaotically connected". The difference in the name of the set immediately places the verse in, they would argue, a much later place than the actual form and its true name. (This is not my position but one that is out there).

Similarly one could argue that the inclusion of Ba Zhou, ( a Meihua set) means that the verse applies to the Meihua and derivative branches and their legend/history of Tanglang origin. The mixture of legends and verses from different branches, especially in Taiwan and Hong Kong virtual melting pots of Tanglang can obviously lead to confusion and LOTS of questions, which I have much more of than I have answers!

Hope I am not just confusing the issue.

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

Please do not take the following questions as anything but the first parameters I would consider if I were doing the investigation.

That is about a 20 year timeframe. Given that the martial community there is so close, distance-wise, do you think that other influences other than those of the Qixing line could have been brought in, such as HK, (who's influence was in TAiwan because the Taiwanese masters were very open and aggressive in their study of Tanglang)? To have remained untouched by such a gathering of talented masters would be possible but how likely? I certainly do not know but it is worth thinking about.

The first indicator is that if you have a Ba Zhou, (and if my research is true), then it is already certain that there are other influences present in your Tanglang, either HK or Taiwan Meihua.

Second, if you have a Tanglang Chu Dong and Tanglang Toe Tao Quan, then, (by my research), you have HK influence.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[FEELERSTRIKE]

MantisifuFW ,
Again many thanks for your observations , and knowledge of the mantis system . It has again opened questions for me and no doubt many hours of research and debate in the upcoming winter months especially over a beer or two in the pub . As always the system holds many secrets to be discovered on every angle it seems ( many I have cracked ) .
My thanks to all who have put forward their knowledge to this question .

[MantisifuFW]

FS,

INdeed I have got to get away from the colonies and visit you guys there! Talking kungfu and drinking beer...

Great to get to know you,

Steve Cottrell

[piotrj]

hello,

i was interesting about ba zhou and what i know there is no this kind of form in qi xing tang lang mainland (yantai). and it never exist in qi xing. it is only in meihua/ taiji meihua tang lang in mainland. of course short technics included body strikes, head, elbows etc. are important part of qi xing, but they are not taking together in one form. short technics you can find in all forms, but some only in zha yao for example.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MantisifuFW
[B]FS,

INdeed I have got to get away from the colonies and visit you guys there! Talking kungfu and drinking beer...

I'm sure you would be most welcome to join us , we have great kung fu , great discussions , not so great weather but **** good beer

[Oso]

LOL, I wonder what percentage of good kung fu discussions eventually get around to drinking beer.:p :D

must be for the analgesic qualities.;)

[holymantis]

hi feelerstrike.
how true.
great kung-fu training and finish with good mantis talk and [******* beer ] hope we do it again in dec


holymantis:D :D

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Holymantis ,
I look forward to you guys coming down in December for some good training , discussion and some beer ( I won't be rushing off this time ) . It seems that unlike some people we are able to hold a discussion to talk about the different backgrounds of our Tang Lang without a problem .

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
Holymantis ,
I look forward to you guys coming down in December for some good training , discussion and some beer ( I won't be rushing off this time ) . It seems that unlike some people we are able to hold a discussion to talk about the different backgrounds of our Tang Lang without a problem .

I´d spend some time with Sifu Derek Frearson in this Summer and was able to cattch some of that British Coolness ... :)

Sifu Frearson was a very polite and relaxed man, able to discuss a lot of thinks in a very easy kind. It was fun and gaining knowledge at the same time.

So, I can imagine what you both are talking about ... :D

[FEELERSTRIKE]

GBL ,
Greetings from England ,
I hope you were looked after well on your last visit to the U.K.
Sifu Derek Frearson is an important figure in the U.K. martial arts scene and very knowledgeable about the martial arts . I have found him to be very helpful and friendly even though I study under a different Master and am not of the LKW lineage as you may have guessed . We have four different lineages of Tang Lang in the U.K. and I have had experience of all of them over the years
and most times it has been good . If you come over again I'm sure you would be most welcome to join Holymantis and myself and my Sifu for a good debate on Tang Lang over a good beer .

[sayloc]

mantisifufw

So you have a book for sale or history and origins of mantis?

if not you should

I am buying

[MantisifuFW]

Sayloc,

Thank you for your vote of confidence. I am, in fact, working on a book of mantis history. It is about 18 months off but it will contain lots of historical photos, and cover the major and some lesser known branches of Tanglang. It will not be my perspective, largely, but will be from intereviews I have taken over the years with masters of the different branches.

There will be a short history in a technical book I am also working on, (can you tell I have a lot of projects), but it will be for newcomers to Tanglang and will be more general, (seven star, meihua and HK branches) and not as extensive.

Again thank you for your encouragement. It means a lot.

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

If you guys are getting together and don't mind, I would really like to be present for the festivities.

Steve Cottrell:)

[holymantis]

hi mantisifuFU
come on over i don't think paul would mind meeting you .
it takes me about 3 and half hours to get to paul's in my car what's a few more hours.
plus good training and mantis talk and i'm sure you won't mind if i buy you an english pint .



holymantis:D :D

[FEELERSTRIKE]

having just seen something on another sites forum is it true that Master Won Hon Fun didn't learn the entire system from Master Lo Kwang Yu ? or is this again another form of interstyle mud slinging that seems to be the rage at the moment ?

[holymantis]

:D :D
hello feelerstrike .
my last sifu told me that some of law kwan yuk's student's that had teacher status had about 3 [sets] forms that were different to the others . this in turn would hopefully make all the sifu's keep in contact and show each other the missing set's .
but i may be wrong about this what do the sifu's out there have to say .


holymantis

[-N-]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
having just seen something on another sites forum is it true that Master Won Hon Fun didn't learn the entire system from Master Lo Kwang Yu ? or is this again another form of interstyle mud slinging that seems to be the rage at the moment ?
In 1996 I posted on Usenet, "It is acknowledged that each succeeding generation did not learn all of the forms of the preceeding generation." This was in reference to LKY/WHF/Brendan Lai. I may not have been the first to write that, and I have seen it restated in various ways since then.

I elaborated on another occasion that Sifu Lai made the statement as a caveat that the forms are not the system. He spoke figuratively when he said that his grandteacher knew over 100 forms, his teacher knew over 50, and that he himself knew only half of that. He said that there is redundancy in the forms, and that a person did not need all the forms to learn Praying Mantis.

He reminded us that it was more important to take the applications from the forms and understand and drill them. He said Praying Mantis is about fighting, not forms. He advised us not to be greedy for forms.

N.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

I would like to apologise to all of WHF lineage . I in no way want to imply or cast doubt upon you , your Sifu's or Masters both present and past . It is obviously and old argument and one I do not wish to reopen .

[keef321]

Holymantis,

Sorry to go off thread a bit but cant PM you. Just thought I`d say a quick hello as im just around the corner from you, Sunny Donny (Doncaster) :-)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by -N-
In 1996 I posted on Usenet, "It is acknowledged that each succeeding generation did not learn all of the forms of the preceeding generation." This was in reference to LKY/WHF/Brendan Lai. I may not have been the first to write that, and I have seen it restated in various ways since then.

I elaborated on another occasion that Sifu Lai made the statement as a caveat that the forms are not the system. He spoke figuratively when he said that his grandteacher knew over 100 forms, his teacher knew over 50, and that he himself knew only half of that. He said that there is redundancy in the forms, and that a person did not need all the forms to learn Praying Mantis.

He reminded us that it was more important to take the applications from the forms and understand and drill them. He said Praying Mantis is about fighting, not forms. He advised us not to be greedy for forms.

N.

He may've but in all honesty, considering the origins of mantis and way back when shaolin ( or what was going as gongfu and defined as such, being they're few of the bunch who've upheld and preserved through the wars and revoloutions ) was a base for what is now several hundred forms, it's not so unrealistic for a person who's pushing the clock and has dedicated alot of their lives to ma 'ing to've accumulated several dozen.

Good advice on his part, but if we're talking about styles, and especially nowadays, ( and in the old days before "new fangle " governmental regimes and expressive oppression :rolleyes: ) when ma was less complicated and more geared toward its' original form , it is by no means unfeasible to want more styles and become closer to the "original" maers' imo and skill. Face it, ma stlye has spilt and become devided. It's extremely rare to find a one stop shop these days and so we pursue other styles. Mantis no exception.

[-N-]

Originally posted by FEELERSTRIKE
I would like to apologise to all of WHF lineage .

FS,

No apologies necessary. That was an honest question. Everyone has their own opinion or answer, and that is fine too.

On what other forum did the issue come up?


regards,
N.

[FEELERSTRIKE]

Hello -N- ,
Just to say thankyou for your understanding , someone with far greater knowledge on this matter has very kindly been intouch and is aware of the source of this information so I would think it best if we all returned to some far more constructive debate on Tang Lang and beer !

[blooming lotus]

right...so who's buying then???!!! :confused: ;) :p :cool:

[MantisifuFW]

BL,

If I am there, the first round is on me!

Also, Stalin had a great answer to your attached quote:

"Quantity has a quality all its own..."

But back to 7* forms:

As far as I can tell, (others will know more about this I am sure) but here goes: (again, I dont' have my notes with me but from fallible memory).

Mainland 7* Taolu seems to me to be:

Bung Bu Quan
Shiba Sou Quan
Cuo Gang Quan (sharpening steel, not avoiding hard but the same form)
Yau Ling Quan (note not Yau Ling Zhang, Zhou, these seem to be much later additions)
Hei Hu Jiao Cha Quan
Tang Lang Shou Quan
Mei Hua Lu Quan, (same as the Mei Hua La Quan of HK Tanglang, here too, note that there are no other Mei Hua forms, these too appear to be later additions to the system)
Cha Chui Quan
Xiao Huyan Quan
Da Huyan Quan
Si Lu Beng Da Quan
Shuang Chui Hua Quan
Lanjie Quan

Note no Ba Zhou Quan.

THere will be varing number of Zhaiyao sets, the Fan Che Quan sets, some have the Tan Tui sets, (the original, not to be confused with the innovations of the Fourteen Roads). They serve different purposes, the Fourteen roads introduce Tanglang Shoufa, which the Tan Tui were not designed to do.

Anyway also the White Ape sets. You will note that there are no second road to any of these nor are there any second roads to the White Ape sets. It seems that these second roads are much later additions to the system.

Also, the mainland will have no Zui Quan sets which most certainly Master Luo added to his expression of Tanglang Quan.

Finally, it does not seem that anything was lost from the mainland. There have been changes, in my opinion, but as to the changes in the number of sets, the only additions I have seen was the addition of the White Ape sets and a few attempts to come up with standard forms, all of which seem to have failed. The surviving and passed down sets seem to be the traditional ones.

The Polish Mantis Boxing club would without doubt be able to give better information than I can but that's about what I have.

Hope it helps,

Steve Cottrell

[MantisifuFW]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
MantisifuFW,

So if we put aside the names such as 7 star, 8 step, etc.... in your catalogue, how many distinct variations of mantis are there?

Sorry EE, I just did not see your question. Well, from my perspective, (please guys this is JUST an opinion and one that I really have not thought about till just now...great question EE! )Not sure my answer will stay the same tomorrow but here goes...

If we are talking frame I see three major variations:

7* Large with some small
HK/ Taiji Large and small HK more 7* Taiji more Meihua
Meihua Small with some large

If we are physicality
7* /HK/ Taiji /Meihua
Ba Bu
Liu He

There are exceptions and I dont' want to debate such a broad subject. I would be interested in differing opinions. As said above I have not thought a lot in this direction and this is a first stab.

Again EE, something I will think about a great deal more...good question!
Steve Cottrell

[blooming lotus]

Little off track here...........


I've been keeping an eye out for tan tui myself ever since MK mentioned it late last year or when ever that was. I've never actually seen any but I am interested in some lyrics if anyone has any. I have a page open at the moment with free clip downloads ( incluing chin na and tantui ) if anyone's interested at http://shop.store.yahoo.com/ymaa/videos1.html


My instructions are in chinese, so can't get to open myself at the moment, but enjoy :)


Also found a link to some wah lum tam tui preying mantis history, at www.wahlumpai.us/the-origin-of-wah-lum.htm

Probably fairly general stuff but again, have a read. I'm sure thre's something in it pertaining our own discussion, but I'd need all the links to open before I started doing the math

cheers

Ps: Mantisifu : If you're ever in the neighbour I plan to take you up on it.

cheers

and now the thread back ...........