Remember the Tien Dei Yan? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 06:25 AM

Heaven, Human, and Earth are based from IChing or the book of Change. So, this concept is of Chinese origin. not Buddhist.

Heaven, Huaman, and Earth is a symbol/concept where it can be used in fortune telling to stratergy...within person and environmental view...... many many self-interpretation and usage. However, there is one concept, The concept of Heaven and Human is an unity is which means in western term "BE ONE with Nature " oftern brought up when dealing with ART.

In chinese martial art such as art from Fujian, Heaven, Human, and earth can means upper body, middle, and lower body technics, or potential/power, movementum, and shape....ect

And, the Localization Evolution of such as japanese Karate from the White CRane of Fujian carry the Upper, middle, lower body technics or Heaven, human, earth DNA.

Female martial art of China before 1850 has a big part of earth or lower body technics. Why? because, Chinese Female in the Ming Dynasty and big part of Qing era are subjected to a in-human custom of bound feet or footbiding. the famed writer and scholar Zhu Xi (1130-1200 A.D.). was aided in the spread of footbinding.

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/studpages/vento.html

With the "small and narrow" feet limitation, female of ancient china were subject to easily to be tip off balance and fell relative to nature unbond leg. Thus, there are Ground style chinese martial arts were indeed develop due to the consequence of the footbinding. One still can see these type of style in Fujian.

The characteristics of Wing Chun is Short bridge Narrow stance. However,
In general, Wing Chun, after the 70's Bruce Lee or the world kicking heat, has taken a turn to Ascent to Sky. were kick such as side kick, knee raising. wider stance... etc were added to a localize evolution. ...

The question then raise is while this Localization Evolution of Wing Chun co evolve with the world's martial art, what has left or ignore? what has grown and manifest? is this manifestation a balance one supporting the Short Bridge Narrow Stance? or it has change the direction subtlely left un notice.

In additional, there are Localization Evolution of the Theory of Wing Chun Kuen, or presentation of the so-called older or oldest theory of Wing Chun Kuen presented today. And again, the question is, does these theory support the short brige Narrow stance of the Wing Chun Kuen? how is it adress the bondfeet facts which some obvious in the 1850 but left un notice today because high feel shoe is an option where one can take off any instant one would like? or it has taken anther path?

((you want to make an experiment? go to any Wing Chun Kuen Article or books, replace the shoe of the female practioners with a pair of 3 inch spike high heel, http://www.sexyshoes.com/p9887.html
then ask yourself, does this stance balance? does it make sense to stand this way? or buy a pair of the spike high heel doing SLT, Doing CK, Doing BJ, Doing Chi SAu...(just dont broke your wife's :D or let your wife saw you doing it :D) try it and see what do you find out? ) )

As a personal experience, for a while, I often tested the concept of BROkEN ARROW with friends, range from beginer to skill martial artists or Grandmaster. The result is always "why do you like to open up this way to being subject to take down".

What my experiment about has two fold, 1, to prove BROKEN ARROW is a kiss of DEATH in a Narrow Stance Short bridge art unconditionally. 2, while at take down and fall from different senerio, what happen? what is the nature tell me? ---- Since, remember, the female of 1850 and beyond cannot avoid to fall........ how are they in the past "BE ONE with the Nature?"

You watch Angelina's movie "taking life"? Agent Angelina lay on the scene to collect data, to let the scene tell her, what is going on. instead of spining and thinking...... observe what happen?

From the Narrow stance and the bondingfeet nature, in my understanding, Earth or Ground in Wing Chun Kuen which has a fame of to be " feminine art" has a different way to deal with the Earth of the Ground.

Just some drunken thoughts :D

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by CarlDouglas108
Matrix>I ask that others honor Hendrik's request. I ,for one , am interested in hearing what he has to say on this topic.

But he hasn't said anything about it, rather choosing to constantly ask questions.

Hendrik reminds me of a Court Jester or the local fool that no-one can take seriously.

Regards

CD

Dont take me seriously. Dont even trust me. Find thing out for yourself.

Matrix

09-10-2004, 06:46 AM

Originally posted by CarlDouglas108
But he hasn't said anything about it, rather choosing to constantly ask questions.

As Voltaire said, " Judge a man by his questions, rather than by his answers." The questions are often interesting, and provoke thought. Sometimes, I don't understand ( or don't care) about what is being asked, so I move on. I like to be selective.

Hendrik reminds me of a Court Jester or the local fool that no-one can take seriously. Interesting reference. In medieval times, the court jester was often allowed to say things that others would dare not say, since it was said "in jest". Sometimes a joke is just the truth wrapped up in such a way so as to be less offensive. The truth hurts......

If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. Ignore it.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.......................

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 07:06 AM

Originally posted by Matrix
The questions are often interesting, and provoke thought.

The ZEN way of transmitting the mind Seal is not about telling others, one to one teaching, or hands on hand holding.

BUT, asking question and let one Observe.

Via OBSERVATION, one AWARE. and the rest of the so-called ANSWER are conditional in this ever changing world anyway.

Perhaps, I am not interesting in giving ANSWER but interested in TRANSCENT people to be able to OBSERVE and DEVELOP AWARENESS? Wing Chun Kuen is an art based on AWARENESS isnt it? why should you swim in my river?

You even see people jump gun instead of reading carefull what I post. In that case, instead of attacking me, perhaps my suggestion is one has to observe the thinker. because that thinker has mislead one. That is lack of AWARENESS. and obviously I am just a mirror to show that lack of AWARENESS isnt it?

What is the most original way to do YJKYM? :D
Well, that depend if you wear high heel or not. Hehehee

ISnt it question is a great tool? and isnt it there is no one absolute answer? :D

Dont tell me Grounding or rooting is to stuck 4 inches of that 4 inch high heel spike into ground. That will break the heel from a certain angle or from over strech into broken arrow situation isnt it?

So, what is grounding? what is rooting? are you thinking interm of scarcity or are you thinking of abundant? Are you thinking of always has to compensate your stance or Are you thinking of flowing with nature? ARe you thinking of against the mother earth? or are you thinking of allow the mother earth to support you? So, if falling bad? is standing good?

I certainly has lots and lots of questions, But if you asked those question and observe, you will arive at the meaning of Dei, earthing........ interm of concept and technical details.....

An eagle cannot fly without that first support by the mother earth.
Can Wing Chun kuen ascent before aware of the existance of mother earth?

Ignore me if you find me wield and crazy. hahahaha. I am not going to answer any question. I ask question here on. Dont you love Chan or Chaan or Zen? :D

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Matrix

Interesting reference. In medieval times,....

Female MUST bondfeet, and you better not complain. this is medieval times, opps, Ming Dynasty. :D

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 07:44 AM

THE ALAN PARSONS PROJECT lyrics - "What Goes Up..."

What goes up must come down.
What must rise must fall...
And what goes on in your life
Is writing on the wall!
If all things must fall,
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass,
Even a miracle won't last.
What goes up must come down.
What must stand alone?
And what goes on in your mind
Is turning into stone!
If all things must fall
Why build a miracle at all?
If all things must pass,
Even a pyramid won't last...

How can you be so sure?
How do you know what the end will endure?
How can you be so sure
That the wonders you've made in your life
Will be seen
By the millions who'll follow to visit the site
Of your dream?

What goes up must come down...
What goes 'round must come 'round...
What's been lost must be found...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dei, Groudning, Rooting, Earthing, .... mother earth....

But it doesnt say, always lay on the ground or always never left the ground. always it is me who goes down to ground. ....hahahahaha

Just dont work against mother earth. Got it? :D

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 07:54 AM

1, Because, one is in denial of the existance of the power of earth instead of make use of it.

2, Because, one doesnt allow the mother earth to support oneself and keep against it.

3, Because, one put oneself in a situation of alway has to compensate oneself against the mother earth instead of make use of it in all situation.

4, Because, even Angelina has to lay on the scene to observe and find out what is going on there.

5, Because one think in a SCARCITY WAY instead of ABUNDANT WAY ---- let the mother earth support one instead of poking that 4 inch high heel totally into the ground and call it "grounding"!

Which is the answer? :D

Is it the technics of others or the anti-denial-of EARTH power mentality which bring one down? which is more scary? the ignorance of the power of the mother earth, or the technics of others which is an alignement of refex the abundant of the power of mother earth, which can be or doesnt have to be a ground fight?

Dei, there is no rule or fomulars or dimention.....etc .

it is about aware of the mother earth and allow the mother earth to support one. It is about respect and honor the power of earth or nature.

It is allow one's root chakra to activate and connect to the energy of the earth and universal. Then, there is no fear of survival.

Spring needs earth power to grow right?

Nah, Bruce Lee's fast kick cant replace the power of the mother earth, Fast Sun Punches cant replace the power of the mother earth. Do you respect and honor the power of the mother earth? no theory, that simple.

In the old time, before learning any technics, people was taught to stand in stance, to sit on ground, to lay on ground to feel that settling..to allow to be supported..into the chest of the mother --earth.

2000 is the time of holistics....

What goes up must come down...
What goes 'round must come 'round...
What's been lost must be found...

Dei, is about one sentence, allow the abundant of the mother earth power to support.

(Abstracted from the journey of a MAD MAN)

duende

09-10-2004, 08:10 AM

Okay we have...

Alan Parson lyrics...

Women in Bound feet vs. women in high heels...

More YGKYM broken arrow psuedo intellectual hippie trips...

False history claims that wider stance and knee usage developed post BL WC.

All this from 8 long winded posts.

And still no knowledge of Tin Yan Dei beyond the superficial high middle low references.

Big words, no substance.

Many Questions, no answers.

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by duende
Okay we have...

Alan Parson lyrics...

Women in Bound feet vs. women in high heels...

More YGKYM broken arrow psuedo intellectual hippie trips...

False history claims that wider stance and knee usage developed post BL WC.

All this from 8 long winded posts.

And still no knowledge of Tin Yan Dei beyond the superficial high middle low references.

Big words, no substance.

Many Questions, no answers.

Thanks for your support, reading it and commenting.

with mother earth, nothing is not a support right? :D

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 08:41 AM

so, that is Die or earth.

What is Human?

What is Heaven?

hahahaha

canglong

09-10-2004, 09:02 AM

originally posted by hendik
Originally, I am thinking to post a series of issues on how I see Wing Chun Kuen Localized evolve, and how Tien Dei Yan was Localized evolved. ...but that would require answers better to stare into your computer than the mirror.

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by canglong
...but that would require answers better to stare into your computer than the mirror.

I am watching the Apocalypse while the mother earth support me to settle in my coooze sofa.

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?id=1808495843&d=hv&cf=info

hahahaha. a petty great movie.

canglong

09-10-2004, 09:14 AM

originally posted by hendik
I am watching the Apocalypse while the mother earth support me to settle in my coooze sofa. This explains why you can never find time to write your book or are you writing it thread by thread.

CarlDouglas108

09-10-2004, 09:26 AM

Canglong>This explains why you can never find time to write your book or are you writing it thread by thread.

Ah yes, the infamous book about the art that Hendrik no longer practices but has plenty of time to riddle about!

Regards

CD

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by canglong
This explains why you can never find time to write your book or are you writing it thread by thread.

What to write?
the always changing evolve living world is more interesting then my thoughts.

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by CarlDouglas108
Canglong>This explains why you can never find time to write your book or are you writing it thread by thread.

Ah yes, the infamous book about the art that Hendrik no longer practices but has plenty of time to riddle about!

Regards

CD

I learn from Angelina to lay on the scene's ground to feel and observe. what to practices? hahahaha

just lay on ground, otherwise, one can practicing how to write the Chinese Character Dei, practise a pronounciation Dei, Dei, Ti...... practice the ritual how to recieve others top high monks opion and thought experience about Dei....

and you know what?

just lay down on the scene's ground, feel it observe it. no need those 5000 years chinese theologent who never wear a pair of high heel who never lay on ground, to telll one how to practice to know Dei.

one lives with earth, dei, not practice to ground.

PaulH

09-10-2004, 12:09 PM

Hendrik,

What you wrote about the earth concept is very similar to that popular book "the effortless power". It's refreshing to hear it again. =)

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

What you wrote about the earth concept is very similar to that popular book "the effortless power". It's refreshing to hear it again. =)

Pual,

hahahha,

as it said in ZEn, the sage from both east and west breath with nose. nothing new under the sun.

But then, how is heaven, earth, and human related to Jing, shape, and momentum?

How is one allow the earth power to support one's every move in SLT or Chi Sau or sparing or real fighting?

There sure are process of training. Those are details needs to align in with the concept. So, the philosophy, the process, the details all is one, a piece of vision -- a 4 D picture if you will call it.
Not scatering piece of philosophy, importing forms... etc which is more like a storage not an art.

just like the van goh's starry starry night. one has to see the full picture. and the full picture has Van Goh's vision, the way how he presenting style,, the coloring..... all details, but fit in one piece. needs to be one piece otherwise it doesnt work. it is not alive, it is just robotic and parts by parts.

Thus,

as some one said, a master is the one shows Dao to the lost, Give live to the death.

one will never settle and ground or rooted or confident be it physically or mental or emotionally if one is not living with ---- i allow the "earth power" to supporting me. One run arround everyday and hours fighting the fire fighting the fear.... figthing fighting.... one is fighting oneself inside. because one's body knows the thinker is processing in a wrong way. But the thinker force the body to take it. What will that end up? Stagnation and depression.

So,
instead of oh, he is going to try to take me down.
oh he has this grapling technics which I dont know,
oh, what does my grandmaster teaches me to do when I meet such and such?
Oh what is the formula?
Those are scarcity thoughts of no "earthing" in one's mind.

Why OH?

allow the mother nature to help one. work with the mother nature, instead of wanting one's own way, work against the mother nature (and now the real scary side is one is pushing one's support to the enermy side. see, what the skill of the enermy is scary, but not as scary as when you force your own support is on his side. Now, that is real scary. because beside the thinker, the fear, one has nothing.)
Say, breathing training. it is not about manage the breath, it is not about control the breath. it is about work with the breath.....

my favorite old song. hahahaha.

Starry starry night, paint your palette blue and grey
Look out on a summer's day with eyes that know the darkness of YOUR soul
Shadows on the hill sketch the trees and the daffodils
Catch the breeze and the winter chills in colours on the snowy linen land

BRIDGE:
Now I understand what you tried to say to me
And how you suffered for your sanity and how you tried to set them free
They did not listen they did not know how, perhaps they'll never will.

PaulH

09-10-2004, 02:03 PM

You hit my head on a nail! =)

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
You hit my head on a nail! =)

back to the Die,

after the General Ch'i of Ming succesfully defeat the japanese, some of the solder went to live in buddist temples of Fujian, so, the art of ground-art also passed down in Fujian, one of the Buddhist Nun in that era, is the Ven Xi Yueh or (the forth months) ...

the reason why these "feminine" art in southern China is using lots of double arms technics is that double arms method fits better to the people with weaker physical strenght. ground technics and kicks are also suitable for the female due to they are more flexible , and under forcefull strong attack there is a good chance of falling to ground due to thier feet condition and weaker physical body.

Thus, I have heard, Fong Sai-Yok, in the legend according to Cho family tradition, was killed by Ng Mui with ground kick. Ng Mui was old and Fong was young and vigor with physical force. while Ng Mui knows in her old age, she is not parr in her physical strength so she trap him......

Come with that story, or myth, there was a laying / ground kick form set in Cho family Yik Kam Wing Chun form collection which consist of the Tiger tail kicks and other ground kicks, sweep, and shovel...

where the set might have already lost today.
Since at one point, every one is so busy ascend to the sky. everyone wants to be Bruce Lee...

Da_Moose

09-10-2004, 07:49 PM

Ah yes, the infamous book about the art that Hendrik no longer practices but has plenty of time to riddle about!

LOL!!!:D

He shoots, he scores from the half court line!

Thanks for the laugh CD!

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Da_Moose
LOL!!!:D

He shoots, he scores from the half court line!

Thanks for the laugh CD!

is it funny isnt it? hahahaha

I love old song soooo much.

The theme from Crouching tiger hidden dragon

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountains disappeared,
If the seas run dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes.
The world I know fades away
But you Lady Wing Chun stay.

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side.
The North star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes........

When the forest turns to jade,
And the stories that we've made
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain.

When we shed our EARTHLY skin,
Then our real life begins,

Hendrik

09-10-2004, 09:33 PM

Yup,

these ground stuffs exist in Fujian's. if not older as old as wing chun kuen.

so, what is Wing Chun Kuen's solution?

Anything new under the sun?

Or Wing Chun herself needs to visit the lost and found department? :D

bagelgod

09-11-2004, 09:05 AM

Although it looks a little fuzzy, that looks like one of the basic armlocks from BJJ...Hell, even JJJ (Japanese Jiu Jitsu).

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by bagelgod
Although it looks a little fuzzy, that looks like one of the basic armlocks from BJJ...Hell, even JJJ (Japanese Jiu Jitsu).

Very True.

So,

The question is what is Die means in Wing Chun Kuen, When hundred of years ago, Wing chun Kuen cannot avoid today's type of lock?

Is it those philosophical stuffs of diamention,..... his-story... or is it deeper then that into pragmatic reality?

What is the solution of Wing Chun Kuen over these attack hundred years ago?

what in SLT or even YJKYM which we dont know while busying making set and set of SLT/SNT or wider or narrower?

The picture above is from a so-called "Southern Shao Lin " nun derive from the Ming's General, the name of the post is double snakes.... if my memory serve. So, where is the ulitmate Tan Sau?

Are we still awake or are we lost in our own fantasy? defining our Heaven Earth Human whatever we want unrelated to the reality interm of mind body and nature?

Remember, the real bloody due exist in 15xx where the era of Japanese pirate disturbing the chinese shore and the battle didnt complete until General Qi build his army and detroy the pirates.. it tooks years of bloody battle....

That years of Bloody battle of General Qi was a seed of NEW paradigm shift in martial art technics.

just some strange thought. if you dont like it please ignore me.
as for the picture, that is real Fujian art. very solid evident of existance.. perhaps the japanese were influence or mutual influence by the fujianese art. similar to the White Crane of Fujian influence today's karate.

So, back to square one, the question is DOES MADAM WING CHUN HAS TO COME BACK TO THE PRESENT AND FIND HER Luuuveee Vaatun BELT which wrap around her similar to a snake? :D
again
I always have question, but no answer. Because our scope keep expand and to expand is about asking questions and questions..and continously asking questions...... hahahaha

canglong

09-11-2004, 09:33 AM

originally posted by hendik
The picture above is from a Southern Shao Lin art nun Do you have more pictures of Shaolin Wing Chun Kuen

canglong

09-11-2004, 09:37 AM

originally posted by hendik
I always have question, but no answer. Always yin and no yang not good but it's never too late to learn.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by canglong
Do you have more pictures of Shaolin Wing Chun Kuen

You want more pictures to UPDATE your HIS-STORY? :D

I do RED BOAT OPRA WING CHUN KUEN.

You want Shaolin stuffs,

There are plenty of Shaolin rice wine, Shaolin ham, Shaolin movie, shaolin football.... pictures in Yahoo.com

http://www.kowloonside.com/movies/shaolinsoccer.html

http://euro2004.footballeuro2004.com/soccer-field/shaolin-soccer.html

canglong

09-11-2004, 09:43 AM

originally posted by hendik
What is the solution of Wing Chun Kuen over these attack hundred years ago? When learning a conceptually driven art don't sweat the technique better to understand the concepts and adhere to its principles.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by canglong
When learning a conceptually driven art don't sweat the technique better to understand the concepts and adhere to its principles.

Even ZEn teachning without specific technics and stages of attainment is not Zen teaching. But Talking ZEN.

Thinker is nice, but too bad that is just Thoughts.

canglong

09-11-2004, 09:48 AM

originally posted by hendik
I do RED BOAT WING CHUN KUEN. Red boat Wing Chun is synonymous with SLT/ Ck / BJ so its good to hear you advocate that now too.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by canglong

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by hendik
I do RED BOAT WING CHUN KUEN.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Red boat Wing Chun is synonymous with SLT/ Ck / BJ so its good to hear you advocate that now too.

1, the name is Hendrik not hendik
2, The art is RED BOAT OPRA WING CHUN KUEN.

BTW, you dont define Wing Chun Kuen too. hahahaha

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by canglong
Always yin and no yang not good but it's never too late to learn.

This topic is about living with EARTH.

Thanks, but no thanks on your religious product.

canglong

09-11-2004, 10:05 AM

No Red boat without SLT/ CK / BJ the word is synonymous not defined hehehehehehe

canglong

09-11-2004, 10:11 AM

originally posted by hendik
This topic is about living with EARTH.The topic is Tin Yan Dei which is a term associated with toaist belief which is also strongly associated with yin and yang so everything that encompasses the tao is clearly on topic.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by canglong
No Red boat without SLT/ CK / BJ the word is synonymous not defined hehehehehehe

Great, As you like it for your own fantasy. Why not? :D

PaulH

09-11-2004, 10:13 AM

Hendrik,

Perhaps now is a good moment to get back to what you know of Tien and Yan concepts. How are these two fit in with Dei? Before I go, I like to pass along an interesting interpretation that I once heard. BJ ended with arms swinging up to the Tien. It completes the Dei (started by SLT). Got to run! =)

canglong

09-11-2004, 10:16 AM

Thinking you are doing Red Boat Wing Chun without SLT /CK / BJ is your fantasy and you are welcome to it. :D

canglong

09-11-2004, 10:20 AM

originally posted by PaulH
How are these two fit in with Dei? Questions require answers Paul maybe he will just pm you he is not keen on putting any answers out in public to be scrutinized.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
Hendrik,

Perhaps now is a good moment to get back to what you know of Tien and Yan concepts. How are these two fit in with Dei?

That is simple isnt it? :D

Why is it called Snake body, Crane potential power, and using the silence ....?

or

laying on tempur pedic matress, rolling in the space, listening to the sound of silence. hahaha

or
Drive up to San Jose and I tell you the full story with all the old/pictures.... :D

canglong

09-11-2004, 10:30 AM

Why is it called Snake body, Crane potential power, and using the silence ....? or laying on tempur pedic matress, rolling in the space, listening to the sound of silence. hahaha Maybe Paul can restate the question if you didn't understand it.

duende

09-11-2004, 10:33 AM

More pictures Hendikk??? I thought you learned your lesson last time around you tried to make a point with pictures. These ones however were best left on your hard drive for your own personal use.

Lets get real for a second.

You have absolutely no recognized WC credibility/authority whatsoever.

Your own ex-classmates from that time long ago in a galaxy far away when you actually practiced Kung Fu won't even back you up.

The only persons who will back you up at all are Rene and Robert. And that's only becuase you provide them with a human dummy to beat up.

But now your intellectual-strengths are threatening that. Because all your anti-Tin Yan Dei nonsense is eventually going to **** off your buddy Robert. Or has he removed all the Chi Sim parts from his version of SLT???

Your ****in' in your own bed.

Savi

09-11-2004, 11:18 AM

"..........HFY uses Tin Yan Dei. However, some self-proclaimed experts have denounced it as not being Buddhist, and is only Daoist. This only shows their ignorance of the concept and their ability to play with words. One must look at the Chinese perspective of Heaven, Man & earth. It is not restricted to kung fu, rather it is a way of looking at many things, from religion to daily life, from physical aspects to the changing of Dynasties. For example, the Emperor is referred to as the Son of Heaven.

The concept of Tin Yan Dei comes from Daoism and influences Chinese thought in general, it is not restricted to Daoist thought. Remember that Chan is ultimately Buddhist, and when Chan came to China it combined with Daoism and Confucianism to create a unique branch. The Seventh World of Chan Buddhism relates this history well in Chapters 1 & 2, the writing refers to the 1st half of Chan being Indian (Buddhist), and the 2nd half is Chinese (Daoist & Confucian).

One must look at the context in which the concept is being referred to. In the martial arts community, it could refer to our logo "Harmony of Body, Mind & Spirit." (Body = Dei, Mind = Yan, Spirit = Tin.)

In a Shaolin context, it is a way of mapping space in relation to the body. It is a reference to the concepts of Space, Time and, Energy.

"Heaven(space)-Man(energy)-Earth(attraction)."
- GM Hoffman

Tin Yan Dei is one of the core concepts that expresses the Shaolin and Chan roots of both the HFY and Chi Sim systems. It is also a way both systems use to express 3-dimensional space. The Chi Sim expression is through the body and the limbs. Chango Noaks has started an interesting discussion with GM Hoffman about this in the Chi Sim section. The Tin Yan Dei in HFY refers to the 3 vertical reference points as well as the high, middle and low gates, but does not apply to the limbs. The TYD guidance of the limbs in Chi Sim was replaced by the Deui Ying/Jeui Ying concept in HFY.

The key to escaping Suffering is that of Correct Knowledge. That is one of the teachings from the 10 Shaolin Wisdoms.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 11:35 AM

Remember that Chan is ultimately Buddhist, and when Chan came to China it combined with Daoism and Confucianism to create a unique branch.-----

Not according to Six patriach, Hsu Yun, Hsuan Ha.... all the Chan patriach of past, present, and future, with the Mind Seal of the Gautama Buddha.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by duende

You have absolutely no recognized WC credibility/authority whatsoever.

Your own ex-classmates from that time long ago in a galaxy far away when you actually practiced Kung Fu won't even back you up.

The only persons who will back you up at all are Rene and Robert. And that's only becuase you provide them with a human dummy to beat up.

But now your intellectual-strengths are threatening that. Because all your anti-Tin Yan Dei nonsense is eventually going to **** off your buddy Robert. Or has he removed all the Chi Sim parts from his version of SLT???

Your ****in' in your own bed.

Your anger and hatre due to the attachment of ego is burning you. That is real suffering.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Savi
The key to escaping Suffering is that of Correct Knowledge. That is one of the teachings from the 10 Shaolin Wisdoms.

Not true at all.
The key to cross over, (note, not escape), is Prajna Paramita.
NOT CORRECT KNOWLEDGE.

Shao lin martial art ulitmate teaching is ONE (not ten) --- the the immoveable heart.

http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm

read it for yourself what is OFFICIALLY presented by the REAL SHAOLIN.

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by duende
More pictures Hendikk??? I thought you learned your lesson last time around you tried to make a point with pictures. These ones however were best left on your hard drive for your own personal use.

Lets get real for a second.

You have absolutely no recognized WC credibility/authority whatsoever.

Your own ex-classmates from that time long ago in a galaxy far away when you actually practiced Kung Fu won't even back you up.

The only persons who will back you up at all are Rene and Robert. And that's only becuase you provide them with a human dummy to beat up.

But now your intellectual-strengths are threatening that. Because all your anti-Tin Yan Dei nonsense is eventually going to **** off your buddy Robert. Or has he removed all the Chi Sim parts from his version of SLT???

Your ****in' in your own bed.

Since whoever this person ( who is not in peace ) is , do not honor my request I ask at the begining of this topic, choose to get into a continous of personal attack to block any public information/discussion which he might have fear or does not agree with his own view.

and has a very bad habit of droping Andreas, Robert, Rene , my ex-classmate.... names... for his own agenda whatever it is.

I choose to no longer continous this topic discussion.
How sad is it in a millinium of democratic that people still very strongly believe in Authoritarian, violance, and information control by forced?

To this person, I hope he learn somedays that, one cannot destroy the facts exist in the past or others ideas which is valid similar to one cannot destroy the power of earth. Dei. a component of Tin Dei Yan.

Savi

09-11-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik
Remember that Chan is ultimately Buddhist, and when Chan came to China it combined with Daoism and Confucianism to create a unique branch.-----

Not according to Six patriach, Hsu Yun, Hsuan Ha.... all the Chan patriach of past, present, and future, with the Mind Seal of the Gautama Buddha.
The concept of Tin Yan Dei comes from Daoism and influences Chinese thought in general, it is not restricted to Daoist thought. Remember that Chan is ultimately Buddhist, and when Chan came to China it combined with Daoism and Confucianism to create a unique branch. The Seventh World of Chan Buddhism relates this history well in Chapters 1 & 2, the writing refers to the 1st half of Chan being Indian (Buddhist), and the 2nd half is Chinese (Daoist & Confucian). People read what they want and ignore what they cannot accept. To validate these findings, Ming Zen Shakya is the author of The Seventh World of Chan Buddhism who is part of the Zen Buddhist Order of Hsu Yun. The website is www.hsuyun.org where the information can be found. It is within the writings of this book that detail the history of how and when Buddhism came to China and blended with Daoism and Confucianism.

However, the topic is about Tin Yan Dei, not about finger pointing about someone's presumed ego. Technical discussion requires technical information. My previous post shared how Tin Yan Dei is integral to HFY Wing Chun and Chi Sim Weng Chun. I'd like to get some feedback/questions on it.

Savi

09-11-2004, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik
Not true at all.
The key to cross over, (note, not escape), is Prajna Paramita.
NOT CORRECT KNOWLEDGE.

Shao lin martial art ulitmate teaching is ONE (not ten) --- the the immoveable heart.

http://www.shaolin.org.cn/html/html/wu/menu1.htm

read it for yourself what is OFFICIALLY presented by the REAL SHAOLIN. Really? Ever heard of Chi Sim Weng Chun? This system originates from Southern Shaolin and in its teachings are that of Tin Yan Dei as well as 10 Shaolin wisdoms:

1. Sik = Knowledge
2. Daam = Courage
3. Hei/Qi = Energy
4. Ging = Power
5. San = Spirit
6. Ying = Form/Shape
7. Yi = Intent
8. Lei = Principle
9. Faat = Method/Reality
10. Seut = Skill

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun also shares these wisdoms. Both systems have extensive Faat (methods) that teach these 10 wisdoms.

But hey, let's get back to Tin Yan Dei and how Wing Chun addresses and uses it within its Faat (methods).

Savi

09-11-2004, 01:07 PM

Hendrik, to stay on topic, why don't you share with the forum what 3 techniques were used on you when you went to the ground (Dei) and you said "That's not Wing Chun!!!" in front of the two masters? Do you remember? Was it an arm bar? A takedown? Were the techniques based on Tin Yan Dei? Do you know if you went through all Tin Yan Dei, or do you only remember seeing Dei (at the end)?

Could you escape/counter those moves at all? If not, why? I'd like to hear about what happened during those three moves. What type of energies were involved? How did you deal with it? Can you share what you learned from that experience?

Thanks in advance.

Da_Moose

09-11-2004, 02:57 PM

Heaven, Human, and Earth are based from IChing or the book of Change. So, this concept is of Chinese origin. not Buddhist.

As Tony and Savi pointed out, this is not exactly news. I was wondering why that statement struck me as being very “off”, then I remembered. There was a comment in the 7th world of Chan Buddhism that was something to the effect of describing Buddhism as being a very adaptable religion. It makes use of a nation’s or culture’s pre-existing concepts in order to help that culture better understand Buddhism. It does not stay rigid, as Christianity or Islam might do, forcing the people to change to a religion. Instead, the religion of Buddhism changes to fit the culture it is in. It has a symbiotic nature to it. HFY and CS recognize this, making them more complete than most other martial arts I have seen.

Rather than repeat what was posted, look for their posts in the thread. All I will add is that from what I have learned of Chan, it is a mulit-dimensional phenomenon that encompasses Daoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism.

Hendrik, what you said maybe true, from your perspective. If only you would add phrases such as "From my experience" or "In my lineage's history" to your posts, you could alleviate and stop many of the attacks before they have a chance to begin. You always come off sounding like you speak for all families of Wing Chun, when that is not possible. I am also beginnign to wonder if you even ahve any real experience to base you observations from, as you never say "In my experience." or anything to that effect. Remember, its the little details that matter the most sometimes.

Cool poem though that you posted (CT,HD), I liked it alot. Thanks!

Hendrik

09-11-2004, 03:43 PM

opps I owe this to Pual, so here I must pay you before I go:D

I learn it from Socrates ? he remember he owe others two chickens before he took his death sentence?

----------------------------------------------------------

Once upon a time in China, Wong Fei-Hung movie.

in the movie,

There are people and different type of people.

Some do everything for friends to support friends to looks great, to success, being it giving up fame, status, money.... because it is friends. what to prove? Thus, nothing said.

Some understand what is the truth behind a certain things among friends. such as catching a non resistance broken arrow is much much easy than recieving an arrow, and it is much much much easy then a chain of full arrow which aim piecing throug one's heart. what to prove? Thus, nothing said because it is friends.

Some sold out friends because it is not friends at all but taking advantage of and exploit others in the name of friends.

Some pretend to makes friends just to rely on others to look strong.

some has no idea at all what is what and running in the street calling out " News News ..." because without that "News News .." one cannot justified one's existance.

Some ....

------------------------------------------------------

So, the reason Wong Fei-Hung was Wong Fei-Hung is because he is very clear what is what. With this Clarity, he be able to truely practice Yee.

some translate this Yee as rightiousness or just, but that is not true, so what is Yee? Yee means appropriate action.

In Chinese, it is said that there is Yee between friends, That means one does what is appropriate and benificial for friend forgeting about one self, be it one sacrified oneself or dis-agreement.

General Kwan Kung of the Tri-kingdom insist to go back to Liu Bei eventhough Chao Chao gave him all the gold and silve trying to buy him out. But General Kwan didnt sell for that. He went to Liu Bei who is one of his soar brother because he knows Liu Bei needs him and that is the appropriating to do to support a friend who needs help instead of getting rich.

I read somewhere about Atila the Hun saying " dis-agreement is not dis-royal." that is a great presentation of Atila knows Yee. It is beyond, you agree with me you are friend, you do not want to be with me when I am doing something bad you are not my friend. one can accept disagreement. thus, it is not a supprise he has a great army.

Wang Xiang-Zai, the founder of Yee Chuan or intention = punch said every punch subdue the heart. That is using the greatness to transform the others not to supress others by force, where today one can punch a guy and tomorrow the other guy is going to learn technics and revenge. there is no end to these fighting.
And one can see, even Mas Oyama learn his art. Who is a better fighter? Who knows since they never fight. But, Mas Oyama can be humble enought to learn WXZ's art. That also Show's Mas Oyama's true learning spirit beside WXZ's greatness of presenting the Truth.

So, what is Yan about? That is about AWARENESS. without AWARENESS there is no great art, no great personality, appropriateness, no truth, no great technics, no improvements. Without AWARENESS, WXZ will not arrive his advance state of art, Mas Oyama will not go study Yee Chuan, General Kwan will be blind within the gold and silve, Altila will kill all who dis-agree with him. Wong Fei-Hung will not reach the greatness.

So, Yan is about AWARENESS. and crystal clear AWARENESS is silence. AWARENESS is Now.

That's all Pual. Yan, Human, Do you AWARE? are you in silence?

So,
Dei is allow the mother nature everything to support one there is no more conflict.

Yan is about Awareness or cierh in madarin. Cierh or Awareness is wisdom.

Sure, similar with Dei, there are process of training of Awareness in Wing Chun Kuen. The SLT the Chi Sau...
as it said, subdue action with silence. That is the of power well cultivate AWARENESS.

Wing Chun means praise the spring. in order to have spring to praise, one needs the soil and all support no conflict nature energy, One needs the awareness of living in this instant and doing appropriate things. Dei and Yan contribut to two third of the spring.

Fan Qing Fu Ming or overtrun the Qing and return to Ming is a conflict big internal conflict of not accepting living in the Earth which has belongs to Qing and living in the past without AWARENESS.

Thus, they fail. 1, they against the reality 2, they are not aware of living in now but trying to go back "fu" return to Ming.

What china in 1850 needs is a moment of true living to make things better, not internal conflict which is contribute to energy draining and going back to Ming which cannot be done.

Wing Chun Kuen is not only about martial art it is about living. How to live a live.

Here I pay you and I sign off once for all.

Rest in peace.

PaulH

09-11-2004, 04:02 PM

You forgot blue sky! Can't fly away without it! Enjoy your new freedom, Hendrik, but don't forget to come home to roost! I'll miss reading your madman's diaries or things on your journey.

P.S. Okay, I got the other chicken. Thanks! =)

t_niehoff

09-11-2004, 04:58 PM

I don't want to get involved in this (yet another) inane dispute but . . .

Duende wrote:

The only persons who will back you up at all are Rene and Robert. And that's only becuase you provide them with a human dummy to beat up.

**Don't speak for Robert. He's not on this forum "backing" anyone up so why bring him into your petty argument with Hendrik in the first place?

But now your intellectual-strengths are threatening that. Because all your anti-Tin Yan Dei nonsense is eventually going to **** off your buddy Robert. Or has he removed all the Chi Sim parts from his version of SLT???

**What do you know of Robert's SNT (that's what we in Yip Man WCK call the first form btw -- not SLT) or anything Robert teaches; have you ever met Robert or trained with Robert? Are you also going to suggest that Hawkins, Robert's sifu, also stole "Chi Sim parts" (whatever that means) and put those into his SNT? That would be the only way to explain the similarities between Robert's and Hawkins' forms (or wait -- perhaps after Robert stole "Chi Sim parts" Hawkins then stole it from Robert?). You know nothing of either Robert or his teachings. So I strongly suggest that in the future you leave him out of your tirades.

Regards,

Terence

anerlich

09-11-2004, 05:17 PM

some self-proclaimed experts

Pots and kettles.

duende

09-11-2004, 07:32 PM

Terence,

you take yourself way too seriously. One of Roberts own students went to a Chi Sim seminar and found out truly where a whole section had it's origins. And it wasn't from Yip Man SNT or SLT.

I really don't care who your teacher is studying under these days... The past list speaks for itself.

t_niehoff

09-12-2004, 07:09 AM

Duende wrote:

Terence, you take yourself way too seriously.

**Once again you can't seem to turn off the personal attacks. Look, if that's how you want to play, I'll be glad to take off the gloves and join in -- but do we really want to go there?

One of Roberts own students went to a Chi Sim seminar and found out truly where a whole section had it's origins. And it wasn't from Yip Man SNT or SLT.

**Robert's SNT has the same general choreography (the sequence of movements) as everyone else in YMWCK -- there is no "whole section" that is different from other YMWCK. You don't know what you are talking about. Can I make that any clearer? But if you want to get into who is making stuff up and stealing stuff, I'll be more than happy to start discussing it. ;) But as I asked above, do you really want to go there? Or do you just want to drop it?

I really don't care who your teacher is studying under these days... The past list speaks for itself.

**If you don't care, then you shouldn't mind not bringing him into your "discussions." I've been intentionally staying out of your (the HFY) threads -- I don't want anything to do with them. But when I see misrepresentations being made about my teacher I feel compelled to respond.

Regards,

Terence

Hendrik

09-12-2004, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by PaulH
You forgot blue sky! Can't fly away without it! Enjoy your new freedom, Hendrik, but don't forget to come home to roost! I'll miss reading your madman's diaries or things on your journey. =)

Ok Pual. Here is my last Chiken to pay you before my RIP! :D

--------------------------------------------------

Tien, Sky,

so what is Tien about?

Let's look at what Lao Tzu said:

The follower of knowledge learns as much as he can every day;
The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day.

By attrition he reaches a state of inaction
Wherein he does nothing, but nothing remains undone.

Sky is vast because there is room everywhere. Room is about empty the garbage thoughts, strange habit, and attachment in one's mind. Thus, it said, The follower of the Way forgets as much as he can every day. Empty the Garbage and one will embrace the grow , learn new stuffs, has new experience....naturally.

Without Emptying, Without forgoting, one can't grow. it is always within that narrow domain.

If you read about the story of learning of Chinese artists, From one of the greatest artist ex Chang Da-Chian of china in our era to Taiji master ex Chen Man-Ching. What you will find is they empty themself. Chang went to Tun Huang MoGau cave to trace the Buddhist drawing for years after he was a great artist at his time and come back to the society with his superb drawing skill. Chen invest in lost to arive at advance state of art. There are many many great people in both east and west goes through these.

As it said, one has to goes lower to jump higher.
Invest in lost, Empty the garbage, By attrition he reaches a state of inaction. Wherein he does nothing, but nothing remains undone. Pheonix has to burn itself to ashes to get a new and bigger body.

In Prajna paramita sutra of Chan said, ---- practice Deep Prajna Paramita for a long time, be able to 'penetrate through" that the five layers of skandals (obstructive layers) are sunyata.

notice I use the word sunyata here instead of emptiness as usual translation . that is because sunyata is not emptiness as in the westen sense of nothing there or an empty garbage container. sunyata is True emptiness Wonderful existance. One who arive at that state when the garbage or the five layers of obstruction in shape, emotion, thinking, habitual flow and consciousness are penetrated through will "know" it is not a knowledge or proper knowledge. Knowledge is "dead"stuffs. Thoughts are dead stuffs. Those things are similar to the programs in the computer memory. it doesnt have live of its own.

If we dont know how to empty, surrender, we will not know how to "switch the Channel of consciouness", use intention, attention...... . we will not know who is the thinker and who are we.

So, without of go deep or high up where the state of the great achiver are, since we dont know how to comprehend a state we have never been.
Empty the garbage is sky. That way we make room to grow and for new stuffs. Without emptying there is no room to grow and to let great things manifest in our live.

Thus, Sky heaven means Empty the garbage, Invest in lost.......

As a summary on this Tien Ti Ren

earth = allow the support from the mother nature power,
human = Awareness,
heaven = Empty out one's attachment/thoughts/habit ... for grow and manifestation in one's life

or

earth = the root chakra
human = the heart chakra
heaven = the crown chakra

or

earth = the inertial physical condition
human = strategy
heaven = the external situation

or

earth = Hum
Human = Ah
heaven = OM

or

earth = Momentum
Human = Postures
Heaven = Jing (power)

all these has to be making sense from the iching or even Sun Tzu , or chakra system...ect point of view. because the model has to represent the nature and it is about LIVING.

As I mention in the other post before, there are differences between the way how the Buddhist and the Daoist view.

The different which differentiate between the Daoist/confucianist and the Buddhist way of using this heaven human earth are that:

Both Daoist and confucian dont have the karma teaching components. Thus, the Daoist meditate in the mountain with great Feng Shui will take the energy or power of the earth, the different manifestation / qi of heaven for the daoist own use. Daoist just takes.

As for the Buddhist, nothing was taken. It is about the energy of the nature circulate through the Boddhisatva, the qi of the heaven circulate through the boddhisatva, and the AWARENESS or Wisdom of the Boddhisatva circulate through the earth and heaven. So, everything help each others to grow.

Human is not ENERGY as other might suggest. The reason is Human is AWARENESS. ENERGY is from mother nature or earth, say we need physical body, we need to eat.

There are different model about Tien Tee Ren, however, model has to be able to converge with IChing, Buddhism, Chakra System, Nature. Otherwise, it is a partial model. And if it is a Buddhist model based on Chan, then there has to be Chan within it.

Tien Tee Ren is support each others. When people jump step or missing step there is where the trouble comes.

Such as Broken Arrow, which is an act of expanding with no Earth support and Awareness. how can this type of action be strong? it cant. people asked me why do you open up like this to subject to take down....etc. I test the Broken Arrow. I know something which guarentee fail.

So what are these Tien Tee Ren concept above good for ?

Try it and put into practice, and see what happen?
when one is doing the SLT, at work, at home.......

-----------------------------------------------------------

earth = allow the support from the mother nature power,

human = Awareness,

heaven = Empty out one's attachment/thoughts/habit ... invest in lost for grow and manifestation in one's life

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, one might asked so how is one use these for fighting?

lets qoute from Lao TZu.

------------------------------------------------------------------
36
In order to contract, it is necessary first to expand.
In order to weaken, it is necessary first to strengthen.
In order to reduce, it is necessary first to build up.
In order to receive, it is necessary first to give.
This is called the fine awareness.

The soft and gentle overcome the hard and strong.

As fish stay in the deep water,
secret weapons of the state is not for displayed.

------------------------------------------------------------------

hahaha

OK, Pual, here is your last Chicken. You go compile it if these has any real life use and passed on. or else, just put in the garbage dump and consider what I say is garbage.

So I owe you nothing more and I go RIP. :D

but then everything in this world changes every instant. good people can turn bad, bad people can turn good. Winner can lost, loser can win, friend can turn into enermy, enermy can turn into friend....... long list goes on and on....

You know, for my mission of life, I just want to be a PIKACHU ---- not some Warrior/Bandits/Follower/Grandmaster/Doorkeeper/Winner/Loser/. so everyone is happy and I am happy always. Open heart.

http://www.wes.4mg.com/

hahahaha --- that is the real Tien Tee Ren isnt it?

oh, take a Pikachu TIEN TI REN test about your Tien Ti Ren,

Go to the mall, approach a hot sexy pretty lady (or handsome man) stand close by to she or him and have conversation naturally.
Now, scan check your Tien Ti Ren, one by one. is your body feel balance supported effortlessly, when get close does that feeling change? what do you aware of your existance seeing her smile? do you empty your thoughts, emotion....or have/keep struck in some strange idea or focus? and then scan check the totallity with the environment and see what happen.

Hahahaha, if you feel there is any singer stuck and un easiness or stagnation... needs to keep constant compensation or adjustment then you know hehehehe you cant face a fighter yet. because you are in a MOVEable heart state. Not that immoveable heart of Shao Lin :D. your love and your fear are just two faces of the same coin. (Pual, dont do it infront of the Victorial Secret,! AWARE of your WIFE!)

Get Ernie to the mall too and see if he can stand up the PIKACHU STRESSSS PRESSSUERE TEST! hahahahaha

OPen the heart chakra and praise the spring. with matra A or HA
HAHAHAHAHA. there is no win or lose in that HAHAHAHAHA

Adios! Poof! vanish forever! reincarnated!
I am going to see my brother RobertChu since I am a pikachu now. hahahahaha

Rhat

09-12-2004, 06:44 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik
If we dont know how to empty, surrender, we will not know how to "switch the Channel of consciouness", use intention, attention...... . we will not know who is the thinker and who are we.

Originally posted by Savi
Hendrik, to stay on topic, why don't you share with the forum what 3 techniques were used on you when you went to the ground (Dei) and you said "That's not Wing Chun!!!" in front of the two masters? Do you remember? Was it an arm bar? A takedown? Were the techniques based on Tin Yan Dei? Do you know if you went through all Tin Yan Dei, or do you only remember seeing Dei (at the end)?

Could you escape/counter those moves at all? If not, why? I'd like to hear about what happened during those three moves. What type of energies were involved? How did you deal with it? Can you share what you learned from that experience?

Thanks in advance.

Hendrik,

"That's not Wing Chun!!!"

Why did you say that?

Remember what you have seen, remember what you have said, remember what you have done, because everything forgotten returns to the changing winds.

Find a song never sung before. Sing it today! It'd be wonderful if you can share what you learned from that experience.

Matrix

09-12-2004, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by Rhat
Find a song never sung before. Sing it today! It'd be wonderful if you can share what you learned from that experience. Rhat,

The show is over. Hendrik doesn't sing here any more.

You sir, are.............. "The Last Comic Standing". Please see the producer for some lovely parting gifts, which includes the traditional lifetime supply of Rice-A-Roni. Enjoy!!

Rhat

09-12-2004, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
Rhat,

The show is over. Hendrik doesn't sing here any more.

Bill,

"In order to contract, it is necessary first to expand.
In order to weaken, it is necessary first to strengthen.
In order to reduce, it is necessary first to build up.
In order to receive, it is necessary first to give.
This is called the fine awareness."

Have you noticed that... "In order to sing, it is necessary first to say good bye."?

Can you be wrong about Hendrik? ;)

You sir, look for all your small ways to care today and you are the man! thumbs up :D

anerlich

09-12-2004, 08:38 PM

Go to the mall, approach a hot sexy pretty lady (or handsome man) stand close by to she or him and have conversation naturally.

** makes mental note to start carrying combat cane in case of approach by strangers with weird aura at shopping mall - and to urge wife to carry capsicum spray **

Hendrik

09-12-2004, 09:37 PM

Originally posted by Rhat
Hendrik,

"That's not Wing Chun!!!"

Why did you say that?

Remember what you have seen, remember what you have said, remember what you have done, because everything forgotten returns to the changing winds.

Find a song never sung before. Sing it today! It'd be wonderful if you can share what you learned from that experience.

Oh my dear friend Rhat, yes, I owe you to cross over your suffering. otherwise you stay in sansara. :D

OK, Rhat, you want answers? hahahaha?

1, Savi's report is in-Complete.

(Hmm, he cant even passed the National Equire's goship magazine reporter test.) :D

The full sentense is "THAT's not Wing Chun!!!! HAHAHAHAHA"
and
my friend said to me" why do you like to open up this way. Hahahaha."

Got the whole sentences? :D

2, Savi again was wrong with 3 technics or how many technics.
No body did use a single technics at all , one just stand there raising one's arm in A non response Broken Arrow. the other one just come in and hug.

3 technics ? to take down a useless unresponsive BRoken Arrow ? Three technics? serious? Savi must be out of his mind.

Come on, dont insult my friend, bro. he is a good martial artist.
Those are kids play for us. (my friend and me, not include you :D no offend)

Dont trying to stirr other up among friends to take advantage and exploit.
As it said in Chinese, borrowing knive to kill others.
Dont think all others are stupid, people will laught out loud on the strategy.

BTW,
at an everning, some one just use a single lite Kyokushin low round horse sweep kick to take out a guy with ABC enterance strategy .. raising kness.... all those lots of technics.

But, that person did spare him to not fall, Didnt anyone telll Savi about that ? see? bad reporting.:D

3, As for 2 masters or 3 masters or 4 masters . hahahah.

wrong again. There were a senior grandmaster in BRuce Lee's weight behind the hall, and he was saying " doesnt work in real life. doesnt work in real life. hehehe, you guys are just playing and have fun with each others."

4, And do you want to know who stolen who's Chaan and other concept for making up HIS-STORY ? where it was stolen? and how it was stolen?.... lots of stuffs.

I wont tell you. You know why?

There is Yee between friends in Chinese martial art tradition, one is not there to exploit and stolen from friends. You certainly dont know anything about it, isnt it?

In addition, Rhat, Since I am a NO body as that Duende guy love to put me in :D

Yup, I am a NO body. Very happy to be a NO body.. hehehehe.
how sweet,

I can fly, I can lay on the ground, I can sing, I can cry, I can lost, I can win, I can learn things from the Santania, from the monks, from the nun, from the flower child, from the gurus, from the begger......from the kahuna..... from the sane, from the insane.....

I dont have to have that IMAGE PROJECTION of I am the GOD , I am the oldest, I am the original, I am the best, I am continous on making his-story by his-story. I cant accept lost or even draw in a match because that means my title.....

How tense is to live that way? that is real true suffering isnt it? but then hahaha may be you love that kind of life. l dont.

Leave this Pikachu no body alone and being forgotten. that way, everyone is happy. hahahaha.

Rhat,
Dont everyone love a happy ending?
Rest in peace Rhat,
Gate Gate Para Gate parasem Gate, Bodhi svaha.

poof and there goes the PIKACHU. RIF once for all and totally.

Rhat

09-12-2004, 09:49 PM

Bill,

YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT HENDRIK.

Hendrik sings again.

Rhat

09-12-2004, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Hendrik
Oh my dear friend Rhat, yes, I owe you to cross over your suffering. otherwise you stay in sansara. :D

OK, Rhat, you want answers? hahahaha?

Huh.....Hendrik!

Being awake and also having awake friends who ask you questions ---is the best way to cross over your suffering.;)

duende

09-12-2004, 11:23 PM

1. Took you long enough to come up with that little flight of the imagination. Who knows.. maybe you were laughing in your head. But unfortunately those around you only witness your red-faced out burst.

2. Yes let's talk about your experience with an entrance strategy. Figures YOU would think your little round kick can do any damage when you have no foundation support and your range is collapsed. Real knowledge of Tin Yan Dei would help you here! Not just your fruity little mystical rant.

3. And this is where it all ties in together. The Art of Kung Fu requires doing the time. Otherwise higher level of knowledge and understanding will never be acquired. What may look simple and attainable from a book (or internet jpegs in your case) is actually not.

This is why all your posts are so low-level in their knowledge and insight. This is why you have to run whenever you are asked a real questions that require real knowledge.

A master is not just someone who can beat you up.

4. First your stance was- Absolutely no Chan in WC
Your second stance was- Okay there's Chan in WC but it's no big deal
Now your stance is- Yes there's Chan in WC but it was stolen.

You've dug yourself in a deep hole, so I understand why you want to leave. When you come back I suggest for your sake that you leave your agenda of attacks behind.

Post all you want about your research and your WC experience, and you'll be left alone. Post more of your politcal nonsense and you'll find yourself in the same hole.

anerlich

09-12-2004, 11:34 PM

You've dug yourself in a deep whole

I think you mean a deep "hole", unless there's some Ch'an related pun there that only HFY practitioners can understand.

duende

09-13-2004, 12:02 AM

HA!

Thanks.... fixed it!

PaulH

09-13-2004, 12:38 AM

Well, Hendrik! If I write an epitaph about you and your numerous and often long-winded posts on this forum, I think I would settle for this: "I had a lover's quarrel with the world." - Robert Frost

This is ever the most fundamental thing about you, my whimsical and poetic friend! The forum will not be the same without you... Anyway, enough said, now is a good time to fly and find your new horizon. Just do it and thanks for the memories! =)

Matrix

09-13-2004, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by Rhat
YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT HENDRIK.

Hendrik sings again. Hmmmmmmmm...
Well, you can still have the Rice-A-Roni if you want it. ;)

Hendrik

09-13-2004, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by duende

1. Yes let's talk about your experience with an entrance strategy. Figures YOU would think your little round kick can do any damage when you have no foundation support and your range is collapsed.

Real knowledge of Tin Yan Dei would help you here! Not just your fruity little mystical rant.

2, You've dug yourself in a deep hole, so I understand why you want to leave. When you come back I suggest for your sake that you leave your agenda of attacks behind

Post more of your politcal nonsense and you'll find yourself in the same hole.

Make me laught even when I am vanishing!

1,
A, clairifying : that is not MY little round horse kick. That is Kyokushin's low round horse sweep kick.

B, experience with an entrance strategy.? No foundation support and your range is collapsed? Kyokushin's low sweep is little? ....
My GOD, you dont even know what is reality.

Do you know what the Kyokushin low sweep is used for? it is not mystical at all. :D watch the Kyokushin tournoment.

The Buddha said to Anada, You talked about herbs everyday but when you see one. you dont recognized about it at all. ---- Surangama sutra.

2, Political NOnsense?

my suggestion is save your suggestion for those who writting article and book claim thier Wing Chun is the most original and oldest, and others are the WATER wing Chun. and make up stories to do personal attack for political reason.

perhaps, it is some other who dug himself in a hole,
and have fear about what might be reveal, so they have to use all kind of political dirty trick, personal attack, to smear to cover up, to seal information?

BTW, you dont own this forum. This is free country the USA. IT is not Ming or Qing Dynasty. anyone can come and goes as they like. I dont think anyone needs to subject to your term to join this forum.

technically,
Your comment on the Kyokushin low round horse kick sweep is a good indication of your martial art experience. certainly, you have never involve in any internaltional full contact tournament such as K1 or Muay Thai or Kyokushin open. So, How can you jugde what is what on others action? beside making non sense story for political agenda about others?

You can talk whatever your believe is but you have no right to do personal attack because your agenda is to censor others presentations.

Here on you go your way. I go mine.

That is my suggestion for you. and this is the last post I reply to you be it I am staying or I am not staying in this forum.

duende

09-13-2004, 10:38 AM

Once again... lots of words, no substance.

1. Muay Thai raise their knee... as do many other Martial Art systems to cover a low kick.

2. You're the one posting new thread after new thread making ignorant wide sweeping insults about systems that you know little to nothing about. Beyond that, you have a servere tendency to hypocritically flip flop. By rewording the martial art knowledge, that you were at one time vehemently opposed to, and trying to make it come off like it was your own.

That's where your problem lies, and that's where you continually dig yourself in deeper and deeper. Maybe it's time for you to stop laughing.

Rhat

09-13-2004, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
Hmmmmmmmm...
Well, you can still have the Rice-A-Roni if you want it. ;)

Bill,

"Rice-A-Roni"

Wing Chun times alone can help you know, for example, when a asking-hand is harmless and it's not, when it's a post from "Bill the man" and when it's "Rice-A-Roni".

The reason Yim Wing-Chun can fight that she eats "Rice-A-Roni".

Matrix

09-13-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Rhat
Wing Chun times alone can help you know, for example, when a asking-hand is harmless and it's not, when it's a post from "Bill the man" and when it's "Rice-A-Roni". There is no "Bill the man", only "Rice-A-Roni". I am merely a Fig Newton of your imagination.

The reason Yim Wing-Chun can fight that she eats "Rice-A-Roni". After all.....It is "The San Francisco treat".

Vajramusti

09-13-2004, 01:14 PM

Duende sez:
Once again... lots of words, no substance.
....
That's where your problem lies, and that's where you continually dig yourself in deeper and deeper. Maybe it's time for you to stop laughing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hendrik seems to easily disturb duende, Chango, da moose, savi
and the HFY crowd! Their problem. I dont think that he takes pride in that. His own center is seemingly not easily disturbed.
I am not part of his social circles. But I have met him, talked with him, and seen some of his collection of TCMA info.- his smiles and laughter are pretty spontaneous. he is not on drugs or pornography. He is a fairly clean living vegetarian. He has not singled out duende or Chango or da moose or savi or rolling hand for personal attacks. He has fairly consistently critiqued their views on shaolin, Chan and some aspects of their CMA claims.

I have not always agreed with him and I am not in Cho family wc.
But his Cho form is clearly a form of wing chun. He recognizes that some of the Cho people have added other things in the migration to SE Asia.

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. He "owes" his critics much much less IMO. He has repeatedly pointed out that anyone can put him on their ignore list. His "dialectical" style except for some of the English is in many ways classic sutra dialectics-where there is a thread though it is not always self evident.

He does not reject "evolution" in the martial arts and filling in gaps in individual training- his argument has been for continuity and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. But he is a critic of cookbook Chan and pseudoscience.

While he is not engaged in competitive matches these days because of his ethics- he has had considerable contact experience...
not just book learning.
Ar certain points after bantering a bit he has...

1.he has outlined different perspectives on Tin Yan Dei

2. pointed to the importance of body unity (no broken arrows) in CMA. The analogy of the two headed snake.

3. he has articulated a fascinating thesis re a possible fujian white crane and emei snake connection in the roots of wing chun. Most CMAs in search of historical prestige mechanically claim shaolin.
Easy to do.

4. pointed to the different body chemistry of wc compared to hung gar and some other southern systems.

5. pointed to the historic ethics connection in Buddhist approaches to martial arts.

6. pointed out that unlike many martial arts, wing chun is not about technique.

And some other things as well. Hendrik- without bragging is multilingual..Cantonese, Mandarin, Fukien dialects, bhasa etc.
He is very well read in Chinese history, buddhism, literature.
Then he makes his living as an enterpreneur in high tech and
has one foot in aspects of the sciences.

Popularity was not his goal. Dialectics without personal attacks
was more of what he was about. Without the goading- there could have been some more info. But he still has contributed quite a bit to the forum.

he is quite active- hyperactive... hopefully that will bring him back again in the future.

What's the point of sniping at him now?

Ernie

09-13-2004, 01:16 PM

I thought Rat's only ate cheese and ran from sinking ships :)

Matrix

09-13-2004, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
I have not always agreed with him and I am not in Cho family wc.
But his Cho form is clearly a form of wing chun. He recognizes that some of the Cho people have added other things in the migration to SE Asia.

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. He "owes" his critics much much less IMO. Joy,
From where I sit, I can only agree with your observations. I have learned that there is some bad blood out there. Too bad, nothing is gained from it. To quote Neitzsche " To the mean, all becomes mean".

Thanks,

Rhat

09-13-2004, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Well, Hendrik! If I write an epitaph about you and your numerous and often long-winded posts on this forum, I think I would settle for this: "I had a lover's quarrel with the world." - Robert Frost

This is ever the most fundamental thing about you, my whimsical and poetic friend! The forum will not be the same without you... Anyway, enough said, now is a good time to fly and find your new horizon. Just do it and thanks for the memories! =)

Brother PauH,

Today, notice when someone says what he means, and when he doesn't.

Wing Chun times alone can help you know--"While Yim Wing-Chun stood there "Wing Chun Kuen" she saw more than she can tell and she understood more than she saw." On the other hand, Hendrik said more than what he understood. Where there are questions, there are no answers.

t_niehoff

09-13-2004, 01:31 PM

Joy wrote:

". . . he has outlined different perspectives on Tin Yan Dei . . . . "

I think this is an important point: the same term can have different meanings to different persons or groups. And sometimes, an "idea" or "concept" one group expresses with a certain term a different group expresses with some other term (you can express the same idea in different ways). No one "owns" these things nor should they assume their take on them is definative. in the end what matters is does your interpretation help you and can someone else's interpretation help you (sometimes a different perspective provides clarity).

PaulH

09-13-2004, 01:43 PM

Rhat,

Go reading "The smiling Proud Wanderer" of Lin Yong. When you are good, there are only questions and no answers. =)

Rhat

09-13-2004, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
There is no "Bill the man", only "Rice-A-Roni". I am merely a Fig Newton of your imagination.

Think of your imagination not as a means to an end--merely a way to get somewhere else--but a reality with its own life and identity. As the Taoist saying,"The Way (journey) is the reward." No need to run...just be real.

Rhat

09-13-2004, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Rhat,

Go reading "The smiling Proud Wanderer" of Lin Yong. When you are good, there are only questions and no answers. =)

Brother PaulH,

Go reading "No where to run, just be there and be youself" of Zatoichi. When you are for real, you don't run away. :p ;)

PaulH

09-13-2004, 02:05 PM

Rhat,

If you stop and examine things carefully, you will note that where there are questions, you have a penchance to answer them so readily! =)

Matrix

09-13-2004, 02:24 PM

The end may justify the means, as long as there is also a way to justify the end.

duende

09-13-2004, 02:50 PM

More of the same from Joy...

That's great that you want to stick up for your pal, but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik's inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.

1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a "wrong turn" without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject. Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep. But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

2. Body unity??? That's WC 101 where I come from. Broken Arrow??? That's just his metaphor for stances that don't equal that of his own system. Once again... another attack.

3. Thesis??? Still waiting on this one! You must consider someone going out of there way to make empty statements to dis-credit concepts he doesn't understand as a thesis. Gosh, remind me to take your coarse if I ever want an easy "A".

4. You needed this pointed out??

5. Yeah... said it went against Chan to fight. Remember that one??? But then he retracted when he was reminded about a little known temple that went by the name of Shaolin. He also outright said that the abbot of Shaolin didn't know what he was talking about, and that he knew more about Chan then him.

6. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on....

FWIW... we've all tried to kindly discuss these issues with him time and time again with no success. But one learns really quick that there's no discussing anything with him. He's just good at making insults and evading answers.

Rhat

09-13-2004, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by PaulH
Rhat,

If you stop and examine things carefully, you will note that where there are questions, you have penchance to answer them so readily! =)

Always the same, and most of them long-winded "HOLLOW" posts. IMO, Pikachu can't dance! We don't have to worry about the truths that come to us with dazzle, because we'll get those with little effort. But let's show some active interest in those unadorned truths that take effort to achieve.

canglong

09-13-2004, 03:02 PM

Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. -- Joy all you have left is the hahahahahaha :D
originally posted by Terence
No one "owns" these things nor should they assume their take on them is definative. Reading his post it does appear that hendrik tries to define Shaolin not just provide his perspective on the subject.
After all.....It is "The San Francisco treat". Bill, don't believe the hype.

Rhat

09-13-2004, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Matrix
The end may justify the means, as long as there is also a way to justify the end.

Bill the man talks....

"a way to justify the end"

Try this....get in the habit of allowing a piece of news about suffering to trigger a moment of reflection for those involved. At least this is something we can do rather than just feeling powerless.

Zatoichi rocks....

The stone is a natural object--made without motive. Is that a story of Chan or Koan?

Someone runs away....

We need to see what's taking place within our heart, our mind, our WCK. But Chan is about not getting caught by this hahahaha.....

Vajramusti

09-13-2004, 08:12 PM

((Final comments on duende's post and Canglong"s, since I am mentioned by name. Wont you guys be really happier with your own cheering squad on the HFY list? Seiously. Negative posts here really dont do much public relations for you .I just ignore the anonymous troll rhat -the boring repetitious reincarnated rolling hand. I dont even know or care -what he says.))Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My (Joy's) comments in brackets...

More of the same from Joy...

((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

That's great that you want to stick up for your pal,

((Actually he is no more nor less a pal than many on this list.
Until and unless indicated/warranted otherwise- I try to keep varying degrees of fraternal relationships with lots of people. And someone doesnt have to be a pal for my saying something positive about their post(s). And someone doesnt have to be an enemy for me to disagree with them )))joy

but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik's inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.

((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him,
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there. "Credible" is in the eye of the beholder- ))joy

1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a "wrong turn" without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject.

(( Not really- he specified different perspectives and the resultant differences in meanings of Tin Dei Ya and showed how dogmatically approaching the term as a mantra does not lead to much discourse. Most WC folks dont use the term. The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it))

Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep.

(( He is fairly clear and self consistent on this particular issue.
As some Old Worlders do--- he uses a lot more metaphors and analogies than most westerners and he is different stylistically.
Just a fact. There are diversities in communication patterns. he can be long winded sometimes- then suddenly very precise. He has not launched a personal attack on anyone. ))

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

(( Lineages... ? Not really- though the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so.... primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets--Shaolin, Chan,
Scientism. He is a serious Chan Buddhist and has mentioned who his Chan teacher is in addition to his martial arts teachers.
So name dropping "Chan" doesnt go very far with him))

2. Body unity??? That's WC 101 where I come from.

((101 are gatekeeping courses-generally in good institutions only about 10% get As- others have dimmer understanding of the subject))

Broken Arrow??? That's just his metaphor for stances that don't equal that of his own system.

((Not really- he has given lots of examples including the so called internal styles-tai chi included))

Once again... another attack.

((If every opinion of his is an attack on HFY....where there is smoke...??)))

3. Thesis??? Still waiting on this one! You must consider someone going out of there way to make empty statements to dis-credit concepts he doesn't understand as a thesis. Gosh, remind me to take your coarse if I ever want an easy "A".

(((the difference between "coarse" and "course" is cleared up in English 101. Sorry you wont meet the pre-requisites. Sorry no easy As. Some theses require a lot of language polishing- his does. This is only a forum with a lot of nonsense. Cant take it always seriously))

5. Yeah... said it went against Chan to fight.

((The doctrine -yes. On initiating violence. Read the sutras.
Specially on the meaning of the self in self defense))

Remember that one??? But then he retracted when he was reminded about a little known temple that went by the name of Shaolin. He also outright said that the abbot of Shaolin didn't know what he was talking about, and that he knew more about Chan then him.

((The politics of Shaolin is a long and complicated subject- varying with dynasties- and with broken lineages under Mao. I also recall the current enigmatic abbot being skeptical about exclusive identification of a singular southern Shaolim temple.))

6. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on....

((Not so. Reading selectively and quoting out of context can butcher any position. Pictures can be interpreted differently.
With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks- no one can reasonably expect them to be convinced of much outside of their catechism))

Rhat
09-13-2004 06:51 AM This person is on your Ignore List. To view this post click [here]

((Bye bye rhat))

canglong
Immortal Methods

Registered: Sep 2002
Location: the Temple
Posts: 619

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Despite being goaded, he has been quite generous with information and analyses of his posts are read carefully- the songs ignored and his English skills overlooked. -- Joy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

all you have left is the hahahahahaha
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
((laughter can be healthy-lighten up!!
Rafael Sabatini was a great writer of swasbuckling stories about warriors, swordsmen and romance including- Captain Blood, Sea Hawk...(with Errol Flynn in the movie versions) and Scaramouche.
The first line in the latter novel became his epitaph and worthy of note.
"He was born with the gift of laughter, and a sense that the world was mad". So hahaha indeed.)))joy

Rhat

09-13-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti

((Bye bye rhat))
joy

Joy,

"Bye bye"

Do as you please!

But wait....I don't even know you:confused:

duende

09-13-2004, 09:27 PM

More of the same from Joy...
((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

Not a stereo type at all... your bias has long been blatantly clear for quite some time now. Now you have issues with a third party Rhat, just because he has the insight to see Hendik for who he is.

BTW... How's that student of yours that dropped by our Chandler school recently?? I heard he complained that we did Chi Sau too fast and didn't like being put in the corner. Good thing you taught him the rules. HA!

That's great that you want to stick up for your pal,
((Actually he is no more nor less a pal than many on this list.
Until and unless indicated/warranted otherwise- I try to keep varying degrees of fraternal relationships with lots of people. And someone doesnt have to be a pal for my saying something positive about their post(s). And someone doesnt have to be an enemy for me to disagree with them )))joy

God... I sincerely hope you enjoyed writing all that. Go on... pat yourself on the back one more time!

but the truth of the matter is that many many members of this forum have noticed Hendik's inablility to offer any credible support for his derogatory statements.
((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him,
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there. "Credible" is in the eye of the beholder- ))joy

Constantly infuriated??? Not quite... but he can be more boring than you, even when your in Joy the cheerleader mode.

1. He said Tin Dei Yan is a "wrong turn" without giving any support to his argument or illustrating his own knowledge of the subject.
(( Not really- he specified different perspectives and the resultant differences in meanings of Tin Dei Ya and showed how dogmatically approaching the term as a mantra does not lead to much discourse. Most WC folks dont use the term. The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it))

Not really??? No Really Joy! He did say it, and he meant it. Specifically in it's usage against grappling. And despite all the "perspectives" you seem to have found, he failed to offer any knowledge of Tin Yan Dei that had anything to do with his accusations. Namely how it does not work against grappling.

Maybe you find his musing on the utmost basic understanding of the terms of Tin Yan Dei as deep.
(( He is fairly clear and self consistent on this particular issue.
As some Old Worlders do--- he uses a lot more metaphors and analogies than most westerners and he is different stylistically.
Just a fact. There are diversities in communication patterns. he can be long winded sometimes- then suddenly very precise. He has not launched a personal attack on anyone. ))

Pikachu is not old world. You romanticise too much. I mean really too much. He has launched many a personal attacks... whole threads of them to be sure.

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.
(( Lineages... ? Not really- though the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so.... primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets--Shaolin, Chan,
Scientism. He is a serious Chan Buddhist and has mentioned who his Chan teacher is in addition to his martial arts teachers.
So name dropping "Chan" doesnt go very far with him))Joy

Chan isn't candy for kids to fight over Joy... He's basically throwing a little fit because he wants all Chan concepts to be initiated by, dictated by, and authorized by him alone. PERIOD. There's no dicussion whatsoever.

2. Body unity??? That's WC 101 where I come from.
((101 are gatekeeping courses-generally in good institutions only about 10% get As- others have dimmer understanding of the subject))

Okay, then I guess your idea of body unity is flying elbows along side facial exageration of pain for dramatic effect.

Broken Arrow??? That's just his metaphor for stances that don't equal that of his own system.
((Not really- he has given lots of examples including the so called internal styles-tai chi included))

Yeah, so now he's a Tai Chi expert too.

6. Wrong. Uses his understanding of techniques as the foundation for all his attacks and arguments. Supports them with pictures of techniques and so on....
((Not so. Reading selectively and quoting out of context can butcher any position. Pictures can be interpreted differently.
With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks- no one can reasonably expect them to be convinced of much outside of their catechism))

Let me make this clearer for you...

WRONG. USES HIS UNDERSTANDING OF TECHNIQUES AS THE FOUNDATION FOR ALL HIS ATTACKS AND ARGUMENTS. SUPPORTS THEM WITH PICTURES OF TECHNIQUES AND SO ON....

Is it clearer now?? Do you want to do your little half-time skit now???

Savi

09-13-2004, 09:41 PM

Originally posted by Vajramusti
but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there. You need to change your soap cuz DHAAAMMM. A collective nerve? Infuriated? No... Amused? A bit more accurate. I personally enjoy watching him trip over his words post after post after post after post; saying one thing first, and then contradicting himself 5 posts later... over and over and over and over and over again. It can get entertaining at times. It must be his kung fu style to loop and loop and loop and loop just like he leaves and comes back and leaves and comes back. Seems like someone doesn't know himself but thinks he does, and the continuity behind all that is his intended focus on an anti-HFY campaign.

You just ride in his rickshaw so, keep talking from the sidelines.

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned regarding Hendrik's affiliates who have antagonized the HFY and VTM, or his self-propagandizing of anti-HFY Formula this, and HIS-Story that, and accusatory blasphemies which for at least the past three years have directly targeted the HFY family. The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today. You turn a blind eye to those who share your attachments, and as fluently as you can, make us out to be the bad guys.

If you actually did some research about HFY and actually tried it out or tested your kung fu against HFYWCK, your posts about us might actually mean something. But unfortunately, the best you can do is send your students to our school (which you know is just a 5 - 10 minute drive from Tempe) and have them lie about their martial experience while trying to get information about us and 'test' the hands of one of our instructors. If you're going to do that, at least make sure that next time they are of some degree of higher skill and we will do this is in a formal manner.

My regards...

Gangsterfist

09-13-2004, 09:46 PM

Duende says:

BTW... How's that student of yours that dropped by our Chandler school recently?? I heard he complained that we did Chi Sau too fast and didn't like being put in the corner. Good thing you taught him the rules. HA!

Here is a perfect example of not understanding where someone is coming from. How I was taught to chi sao sounds soundly different than you chi sao. Chi sao is not a competition and its not fighting. Movements should be controlled. The idea is to stick to your opponet not resist them, force them, fight them. That is fighting. Chi sao is a drill that build attributes, like sensitivity. From the sounds of it you chi sao differently, and have your reasons for it. In a fight situation if someone is using an excessive amount of force, and agressively come at you, more than likely your opponet will not try to stick to you. Instead of blasting out every other lineage but your own, perhaps try to understand where they are coming from. When I attented GM Ho Kam Mings seminar there were some questions projected to him about how other lineages do stuff. His answer was, they have their reasons for doing so, our reasons may differ.

It was simply put, and not bashing anyone else. Other lineages train a certain way because thats how they train. They must have their reasons for doing so.

I read a book on YKS wing chun a few months ago and it was different. In the book it explained the reasons why and I got the basic concept of why they do it that way. I do not say its worse or better, I just acknowledge the differences.

Gangsterfist

09-13-2004, 09:49 PM

Originally posted by Savi
You need to change your soap cuz DHAAAMMM. A collective nerve? Infuriated? No... Amused? A bit more accurate. I personally enjoy watching him trip over his words post after post after post after post; saying one thing first, and then contradicting himself 5 posts later... over and over and over and over and over again. It can get entertaining at times. It must be his kung fu style to loop and loop and loop and loop just like he leaves and comes back and leaves and comes back. Seems like someone doesn't know himself but thinks he does, and the continuity behind all that is his intended focus on an anti-HFY campaign.

You just ride in his rickshaw so, keep talking from the sidelines.

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned regarding Hendrik's affiliates who have antagonized the HFY and VTM, or his self-propagandizing of anti-HFY Formula this, and HIS-Story that, and accusatory blasphemies which for at least the past three years have directly targeted the HFY family. The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today. You turn a blind eye to those who share your attachments, and as fluently as you can, make us out to be the bad guys.

If you actually did some research about HFY and actually tried it out or tested your kung fu against HFYWCK, your posts about us might actually mean something. But unfortunately, the best you can do is send your students to our school (which you know is just a 5 - 10 minute drive from Tempe) and have them lie about their martial experience while trying to get information about us and 'test' the hands of one of our instructors. If you're going to do that, at least make sure that next time they are of some degree of higher skill and we will do this is in a formal manner.

My regards...

Why do you care? How does it really effect you? Lets stop the trash talking all together. Amused or not, you HFY people like to argue. Lets stop before this turns into another 3 years of pointless flame wars on an internet message board. I mean you all realize this is an internet message board right? I show my friends this message board who don't even do martial arts and they get a kick out of it.

anerlich

09-13-2004, 09:56 PM

But others here on this forum find it as an all too transparent insult against lineages he has many times in the past went out of his way to attack.

I preface this by stating the obvious, viz. I'm not a likely choice for KFO's "Polite Poster of the Year 2004" , or HFY108's "Friendliest non-HFY Infidel 2004".

Have you considered what impression your endless and boring attacks on Hendrik (who IMO took "endless and boring" to new levels himself) and Joy (who IMO is as good and polite a poster as any) say about you?

And by association your lineage (the posters on here belonging to which seem almost uniform in their opinions and targets)?

If you guys really are riding in the red cigarette boat through the polluted sea of Popular Wing Chun (TM), and claim the moral high ground (excuse that mixed multimetaphor), when are you going to start practising what you preach?

What is it exactly that makes you better than the rest? Ch'an, tien Dai Yan and Sam Mo Kiu (sp)? 'Cause it sure ain't obvious on this thread.

Vajramusti

09-13-2004, 10:02 PM

Anerlich always calls it as he sees it- and I have no problem with that.

duende

09-13-2004, 10:24 PM

G-fist,

For us, asking to Chi Sau is a challenge first and foremost. And... we consider Chi Sau a tool for fighting, not just training.

Anerlich,

Yep... I can definitely see how boring it truly is. But many many KF practitioner have issues with Hendik and his practices. Not just members of my lineage.

anerlich

09-13-2004, 10:53 PM

The politics behind all this need not be mentioned

You looked pretty silly jumping right in and mentioning it after saying that.

The heat Hendrik gets from some of the HFY people here are the reactions TO the actions he has done over the course of recent years and continues to do today.

Hendrik is HFY's worst enemy? Jeez, I'm going to have to try harder ... I though I was at least a contender ... Victor, help me ... :(

Hopefully you can see I'm not serious - but jeez, you guys need to take yourselves and your position in the world a little less seriously. Maybe you could even have INDIVIDUAL opinions ... maybe talk to Garrett and Benny about it. I know it's a novel idea, but ...

Gangsterfist

09-13-2004, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by duende
G-fist,

For us, asking to Chi Sau is a challenge first and foremost. And... we consider Chi Sau a tool for fighting, not just training.

Anerlich,

Yep... I can definitely see how boring it truly is. But many many KF practitioner have issues with Hendik and his practices. Not just members of my lineage.

I think that totally depends on the intent of how it was asked. Asking to learn from difference and asking to touch hands with someone are two distinct differences. Its all in perspective I suppose.

I see your point, and I have heard of people who have entered my sihings school and done the same. Its all a waste of time. Concentrate on yourself and let others train how they please.

Vajramusti

09-13-2004, 11:02 PM

Now me? Et tu Brute? Nope-<g>

No drama.

It is not worth it to respond to the latest round of personal HFY
verbal attacks. Serves no constructive
purpose to reply in kind..

They have so many facts wrong anyway. For the record-I most certainly did not send anyone to the local HFY school. Not my modus operandi anyway. Repeating a lie or lies (about sending people) do not make them true.

Besides, I read their book- and gave it away. End of my curiosity...
honest.

Scaramouche had the right idea- the gift of laughter.

Bye to this thread. Do we have the capacity of moving on?

taltos

09-13-2004, 11:17 PM

Not for nothing, but...

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Whatever- stereotyping gets you exactly nowhere))joy

And yet...

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Hendrik seems to easily disturb duende, Chango, da moose, savi and the HFY crowd

Not me.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
((Some people have not agreed with him, some have teased him, but the HFY folks have been consistently infuriated with him. He has obviously touched a collective nerve there.))joy

Not me.
Not mine.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
The HFY folks have tried to make a jargonish mystery out of it

Not me.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
the HFY folks in their apparent insecurities take it to be so.... primarily because of the HFY attempt to wrap themselves in several blamkets--Shaolin, Chan,

Not me.
And then not me again.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
With the obvous anti Hendrik bias among the HFY folks

Not me.

And this is only one thread.

For the record, I study HFY.

Thus, I must ask...

Are you perhaps guilty of stereotyping yourself and perhaps a good sized dose of your own advice would be in order, or am I somehow in all of these catagories as well? Seeing as how I have never been upset by Hendrick for anything, I have not "jargonized" anything, I have no insecurities in regards to my Kung Fu, I wrap myself in no blankets other than my own personal identity, and have never posted "anti-Hendrick bias," it would SEEM that the first conclusion holds a great deal of merit.

And, as I always do, I ask that if I somehow fit those catagories, you could be so kind as to point out how. That way, I can try to understand how no one else has never seen such behavior from me.

Thanks in advance.

-Levi

anerlich

09-13-2004, 11:29 PM

Gangsterfist,

I agree chi sao should be a non-competitive drill.

However, there has been plenty of history where people have gone to a school, asked to chi sao with the instructor, the instructor gave them a respectful go, and then they run off and spread rumours that they "owned" the person concerned, beat him up, etc etc. Duende and Savi have unwittingly shown you how such situations can be twisted to suit the agenda of whoever is talking about them. There are no doubt two sides to THAT story.

I head a story about Emin Boztepe, asked for about the six millionth time if a visitor could chi sao with him. "What will that prove?" he reputedly said. "Let's fight instead."

A bit aggro perhaps, but I understand where he is coming from.

We've generally had a fairly uncompromising attitude to strangers coming in and asking to compare skills. We would not want them to go away with any doubt as to our abilities. The last guy who insisted on Chi Sao with my instructor received a non-damaging but powerful shot to the solar plexus that left him unable to continue (or stand for a little while). The last guy that came in got taken down and choked and armbarred several times by a student who had about a decade's less experience than he. Chi Sao doesn't include takedowns? It does where I come from. Don't want that? stay away.

My only real problem in this area was a guy that come in for a private lesson with me and really wanted to fight. I was a bit worried - either of us could have got hurt, and either way I would have suffered. Fortunately, I was able to gas him out in a couple of minutes of sparring without either of us getting hurt or me breaking a sweat, and I ended up showing him some basic mitt work and suggested he do some cardio.

anerlich

09-13-2004, 11:34 PM

Taltos makes good points.

He is indeed a person of his own opinions, and goes out of his way (and perhaps far beyond the call of duty) to be reasonable and respectful.

A role model for his peers in the HFY organisation, and perhaps some of his seniors as well.

Gangsterfist

09-14-2004, 01:02 AM

Well, I have successfully gone to other kwoons and chi sao'd other people in a non-competitive or aggressive way. I just tell them up front I would like to experience something different and would like a chance to work out with your students. I have never asked to chi sao a sifu or challenge what a sifu says. Its his class and he is the boss. Sometimes different sifus will welcome this, sometimes they will want me to pay for a class, but still welcome it, and sometimes they will decline. My sifu encourages it, but always tells me to be mindful of my manners. If chi sao is fighting to some people with grappling and take downs and such (which is more like fighting IMO) then I can choose not to participate and thank them for their time.

Its all about ego, and since when I go out to touch hands with other people I don't have an ego, it usually works out fine. Once I got punched in the face by this big guy chi saoing. He bascially just charged right in at me before when even really started rolling. I admit I wasn't ready for it, but I just told him I was done and walked off. There is no need to start fights from things like this.

I get the feeling that a lot of people on this forum would have a hard time doing things like this with out ego. Chi sao is not fighting, its a drill that build attributes. If you wish to punch people, grapple them, etc then why not just spar? or fight?

Again, this is my POV of wing chun training and different lineages will have different reasons.

In the world of wing chun there is a lot of unneeded policitics which can become ridiculous arguments. I can see where some sifu's do not welcome outsiders, heck I have been a closed door student myself at one time. However, if anyone ever comes my way and wants to work out, and I actually have the time I have no problem with that. If you cop an attitude or spit out my lineage this then we are done right there.

t_niehoff

09-14-2004, 08:48 AM

"Touching hands" (or chi sao) can give you some idea of a person's approach but it won't -- because it can't -- show fighting skill (the ability to apply WCK). It's all "this is what I would do" kind of stuff. And being able to do it in "touching hands" is very, very, very different than being able to do it when someone is not playing "the game" but instead is doing everything to knock your head off. The former is theory, the latter is application. Lots of people have great theory, but we don't see too much great application. You can't judge by theory -- lots of things sound great or look great in cooperative environments (chi sao, 1 step sparring, etc.).

taltos

09-14-2004, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[Bbeing able to do it in "touching hands" is very, very, very different than being able to do it when someone is not playing "the game" but instead is doing everything to knock your head off[/B]

Amen to that.

I can't tell you how many times I've thought my Chi Sau/San Sau/Whatever was pristine, then had a friendly go with some brothers or sisters and discovered some rather large holes in my skill. Then I thought, "if a FRIENDLY and (as we were students in the same school) RELATIVELY SAFE exchange opened me up like this, what's gonna happen when the chips are REALLY down?"

This usually results in my humbly returning to the proverbial drawing board.

-Levi

YongChun

09-14-2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by t_niehoff
You can't judge by theory -- lots of things sound great or look great in cooperative environments (chi sao, 1 step sparring, etc.).

I just met a Korean guy who did 18 years of Hapkido. His Hapkido and also his Thai boxing is very good. He said he can do knife defence very well using Hapkido techniques. But he said realistically he doubts if any of those things will work in real such as against Filipino knife fighters. So his next venture was to study the Filipino fighting arts. He said even though Thai boxing is very effective, still they don't like it in Korea because it doesn't look good.

Ray

Matrix

09-14-2004, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by YongChun
He said even though Thai boxing is very effective, still they don't like it in Korea because it doesn't look good. To quote a wise man, "Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using". Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

YongChun

09-14-2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Matrix
To quote a wise man, "Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using". Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

To me that's good looking if someone is good using.

Rhat

09-14-2004, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Matrix
To quote a wise man, "Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using". Besides, there are no points for artistic impression.

Bill,

"Wing Chun is not good looking"

I hate to tell ya this, "You're wrong about Wing Chun"

Wing Chun is the kind MEN'd like to flaunt and take to dinner.
Well She always knows her place, "simple and direct"
She's got style, She's got grace, She's a winner.

Matrix

09-14-2004, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by YongChun
To me that's good looking if someone is good using. Ray,
I agree with you on that, but it doesn't look as "cool" as some of the more flashy things we see running around. Some people see beauty in efficiency, but others want to look at the flowers. To each his own.

Matrix

09-14-2004, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Rhat
I hate to tell ya this, "You're wrong about Wing Chun"

Wing Chun is the kind MEN'd like to flaunt and take to dinner.
Well She always knows her place, "simple and direct"
She's got style, She's got grace, She's a winner. Hey Rhat, There's a song in there somewhere. ;)
I have no problem with being corrected. I would rather be improved by criticism than ruined by praise.

As for Wing Chun, I think we all see the beauty in it, but in general, to the untrained eye, we may appear more utilitarian than beautiful. If I had to chose, not they are necessarily mutually exclusive, I would rather be "good using" than "good looking".

Savi

09-14-2004, 05:38 PM

Lying?
First of all, the fact that Chaudhuri Sifu blatantly denied any such event without offering the benefit of the doubt should tell you something.

When Gangsterfist informed everyone about one of my sihingdai having an unfavorable exchange with his sihing, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and apologized on behalf of my school.

Rather than being “polite” about it (as anerlich says he is), Joy in turn accuses Duende and me of lying. Anerlich supports this accusation and says I have some sort of agenda. I can tell you will all sincerity that I am not lying and I do not have any agenda bent on destroying other lineages.

The fact is a student of Joy’s has come to my school more than once. He claimed to be a student of Joy’s which really raised a red flag in my head. Regardless I remained hospitable to him. He actually did not Chi Sau with me as Duende stated. He and I had an exchange of Paak Sau/Taan Sau against punches. He was not cooperative nor did he return the hospitality. It came to a point to when I decided it wasn’t worth my time and shut him down. I asked him if there was anything else I could help him with, then he left the school. I went back to helping my sihingdai train. That is the short version of it.

My Simo has told me that he has come around our school on several previous occasions with no real interest in finding out about what we offer. Rather, it seems that he comes around to waste our time and test his skill against us.

If you are unaware of these events Joy, then it would be most courteous of you to offer the benefit of the doubt rather than accuse me of lying. It did happen, and he stated that he did train under you. Perhaps diplomacy is not for you?

Individuality?
Secondly, for those that think the HFY members on this forum are some type of choir with no diversity in thought and opinion who only “parrot” what GM Gee and Master Meng teach us, you should rethink this. Levi speaks his own mind and has proven it in this thread. Chango speaks his mind and even uses this forum strictly for entertainment purposes. Da Moose definitely speaks his own mind very eloquently. Duende is certainly different in what he chooses to discuss.

These are just a couple of the members who have demonstrated their own character in their own way. I use this forum as a means to maintain a level of diplomacy (as demonstrated with Gangsterfist as of recent, and Ernie as in previous months) when it comes to HFY issues, and at times I will get aggressive when I don’t think diplomacy is warranted. Yet I still I speak my own mind.

Just because the HFY forum members appears to maintain a consistency in understanding of the HFY system (for what we have individually learned so far), and that we know who the antagonists are who are bent on derailing the HFY family and the VTM in public and private, is simply one example of unity. In any case, we all (as in everyone) speak from our own experiences and perspectives.

My perspective
Lastly, there are characters out there who, at nearly every opportunity, try and persuade people that HFY is a bunch of BS – and usually do it in an uncivilized and veiled manner. A fact is, that we (HFY) have members out there who are focused on defending that which we hold dear and believe in. They have decided to engage with these particular characters. I don't know about you, but I am proud to have people protecting my family against naysayers.

And it is a fact that there are some HFY members who use this forum strictly for their own personal reasons, but you can't tell me that the majority of this forum is not here for personal enertainment and social interactions. Not every HFY practitioner is a representative of the HFY lineage. "Guilty by Association" is an unfair treatment.

In the public eye, HFY is very young in comparison to other arts. I strongly believe these characters who are intent on attacking this lineage either put up or shut up. These type of people [I believe] are NOT interested in the survival of the Wing Chun world, but are more interested in their own ego.

anerlich

09-14-2004, 07:03 PM

First of all, the fact that Chaudhuri Sifu blatantly denied any such event without offering the benefit of the doubt should tell you something.

Ummmm .... that you take yourself way too seriously and you need to grow a thicker skin?

Your implication that he orchestrated it doesn't exactly show a lot of benefit of the doubt either. Perhaps you share the lack of diplomatic talent of which you go on to accuse Joy?

I can tell you will all sincerity that I am not lying and I do not have any agenda bent on destroying other lineages.

Well, Ok, but that and 20c will get me a ride on a bus. Dubya and the Prime Minister here, John Howard, say stuff like that too, especially as elections in both countries draw near. Both you and they come on as if you all expect to be treated as saints, giants of the intellect (OK, except Bush), illuminated beings or something equally overblown.

I'll keep my critical facilities in place, thank you.

Show us, don't tell us.

Anerlich supports this accusation

I never said you lied. I've got no reason to assume you lied, but none to assume you're telling the truth either. It sounds to me like an uinconclusive incident that got blown out of all proportion with the help of some rampant paranoia.

The balance of probabilities and my impression of Joy formed over many years make it difficult for me to believe your accusation without proof. I have "reasonable doubt", the benefit of which you toot your own horn about giving people like Gangsterfist.

Perhaps diplomacy is not for you?

And perhaps not for you either?

IMO diplomacy is way overrated. This an internet forum, not the UN.

Chango speaks his mind and even uses this forum strictly for entertainment purposes.

And, my, it *is* entertaining watching the antics of many, Chango included on occasion.

Secondly, for those that think the HFY members on this forum are some type of choir with no diversity in thought and opinion who only “parrot” what GM Gee and Master Meng teach us, you should rethink this.

I have. I've formed conclusions based on past and current posting and behaviour, so have (and will!) others.

The regular quoting of lengthy tracts from MKF and posts from HFY108 instead of explanations in your own words don't exactly strengthen your argument or highlight your claims of ability for individual, critical thinking.

These type of people [I believe] are NOT interested in the survival of the Wing Chun world

The WC world is doing just fine. Those who have incurable expansionist tendencies, paranoia, or care that they don't have a high enough profile or aren't famous or rich enough might feel under threat, but WC's still one of the highest populated TCMA's out there.

Stop being so friggin' SERIOUS about it all. It ain't that big a deal. Your attitude almost demands ridicule sometimes.

taltos

09-14-2004, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Well, Ok, but that and 20c will get me a ride on a bus.

Uhm... WOW. It's like a buck seventy-five here in Arizona.

I envy your inexpensive mass transit.

-Levi

anerlich

09-14-2004, 10:59 PM

I envy your inexpensive mass transit.

Truthfully, that 20c ride would be very short.

I haven't ridden a Sydney bus for decades, but my train journey to work and back(about 18 miles each way) costs me $8.80 AUS in peak hour, and $4.60 off-peak.

Our train service is woeful compared to the London Underground and Paris Metro. Then again, our population density would make such services impractical.

Traffic in Sydney is amongst the worst in Australia if you'd prefer buses. And the interchanges between train lines, buses, and ferries are full of unmakeable connections.

Eh, but we all get by.

duende

09-14-2004, 11:01 PM

Anerlich,

I appreciate you humor... but what's all this saints/giants of the intellect/ illuminated beings crap have to do with anything???

I'm the one who made the personal attacks, and I stand by them all. **** em! I'm not trying to win friends here. Savi's dead on in his last post.

I could go into more details, but we're all tired of it by now.

Hopefully this will be the last of this kind of flame war for a long time.

anerlich

09-14-2004, 11:16 PM

"I'm the one who made the personal attacks, and I stand by them all. **** em!"

Understood. I'd rather people called spades ****ing shovels than rave on ad nauseam about how pure and refined and fair they are, and how eloquent and fair they are, when the reality is obviously that they are no better than anyone else..

"Savi's dead on in his last post."

I stand by my critique thereof. Sue me.

duende

09-14-2004, 11:25 PM

No thanks.... the only lawyers I like are broke.

Vajramusti

09-14-2004, 11:45 PM

The post started off with TYD- veered off to an attack on Hendrik,
then duende first and then Savi focused on me and how supposedly I had sent students to the local HFY place in this large metro about 20 minutes away- driving within the speed limit.

This is not the first time that this false story has emerged from some HFY folks. I called this a lie. One of the meanings of a lie is
"an inaccurate and false statement". The claim of my sending students is the falsehood I refer to-no matter how often it is repeated.

Rather than letting things be- comes now Savi again with a long
post directed at me- you can read it for yourself. Rather than a long rebuttal- I will cut to the quick.

1. I did not send any student of mine to Lowenhagen's place
any time. Not my style. Further, I have zero interest in HFY.
Once before Lowenhagen "challenged" me "your place or mine"(approx)when supposedly I had disturbed the harmony of the universe. I laughed and declined.

2. What students do outside of class on their own is their business. I dont babysit them and I give no one carte blanche authority to represent me. And I remind people that no one represents me outside of learning kung fu from me.

3. When several months ago the HFY version of the visit emerged-
I asked students about it. The hearsay that emerged is as follows-
remember I was not there and didnt send anyone and no one represented me.
Three people (adults) responding to a handout they had seen and the
prominent signboard apparently had gone on their own to see what HFY was about and went to the school and stood at the entrance of the school.
The chief instructor or owner of the school- a man identified as having big ears possibly Lowenhagen(?)- began to speak about HFY to the three visitors
one of whom asked some questions about HFY training methods..
The instructor said that HFY is a great system and it hasa powerful stance which can resist xooo pounds of pressure. Then he invited one of the students to test his (the instructor's) stance to see if he can be pushed over. The student when asked to do so apparently pushed in the general chest area and the instructor stumbled backwards.
After a while the adults left and didnt go back. One of the HFY members went toa computer to try to identify the students.

There was no chi sau.

That is the hearsay from this end in a nutshell. I was not there and had zilch to do with the "alleged" event. Promise.

4. Again, I have zero interest in HFY and have nothing to gain by
sending vsitors to HFY.

Again- can we move on?

duende

09-15-2004, 04:12 AM

Gosh Joy,

You must have just watched the "science" video on the importance of triangles on another thread here on this forum. Everyone's allowed to their creative license though yours is less original than most.

For your creative outlet, you really should stick to those photos of dramatic grimaces and desparate displays of abject pain that you are so well known for in the WC world.

I mean as far playing the part of the dummy getting hit by a flying elbow...

nobody does it better than you.

Matrix

09-15-2004, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by YongChun
To me that's good looking if someone is good using. Ray,
I share your view. Your tastes have obviously been refined. :)
It just seems that people want to see flashy/flowery stuff. Jumping, and spinning and whatever, catches people's attention. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

taltos

09-15-2004, 09:57 AM

Vajramusti,

I'll do my best to get everyone on the same page, or at least offer up the other side of the non-hearsay coin.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
remember I was not there

I WAS there. Although not initially, I showed up for class when the three individuals were speaking with my Sifu on the North training floor, standing near the mounted Wooden Dummy. As I always do when a visitor is at the school and someone is speaking with them, I went over to my Sifu in case he wanted to do any sort of demonstrations (since a demonstration on the visitor can be taken the wrong way if both parties are not on the same page, we usually do illustrative demos on one another first in to keep everything comfortable and non-confrontational for the visitor). I recognized two of the individuals. I am a kung fu geek, so I am well versed in most of the WC websites and clubs around here, just for the sake of seeing what was out there. And as I have said before, I've worked out with many (including a student of yours numerous times for a while when I was attending ASU, and we had nothing but positive exchanges, which reflects well upon him and him alone since we all represent ourselves). So I knew that two of them were students of yours and I was there when my Sifu asked if any of them had any prior martial arts experience (Wing Chun or otherwise). One said "no, not really." One I knew said "No." The third (that I also knew) didn't answer. We ask because the vocabulary and level of detail used to explain and answer questions varies according to the level of experience, as I'm sure we all know.

Also, when I came in, Tony (canglong) was already seated at Sifu's desk. When my Sifu let me know that he didn't need me for anything, I went over to say hello to Tony. We exchanged pleasantries and he said they had come in a few minutes ago. I mentioned that they said they had no experience, but I was SURE they were students of yours. He was surprised, so I (that's me... TALTOS... LEVI... the author of this post), loaded up your website and went to the group Chum Kiuh and Biu Ji photos. I pointed out the two I knew, but never spotted the one I didn't.

When they left, I spoke with my Sifu. When he discovered that they in fact DID have martial experience, he asked me to go ask them if they wanted to stay and watch our class (which would have been Yip Man class that night, so they could have seen the variances in the Yip Man system that we have and they have by comparison, and any HFY questions they may have had could have been addressed from a common martial ground, i.e. te Yip Man system). But, alas, it was not to be. That's a story for another day.

If we wanted to get into a semantic argument, I suppose only one of them actually outright lied. The silent one certainly didn't lie, although it could be argued that he DID allow a false assumption to be made. The "no, not really" answer COULD be argued as just humility, but that's shaky at best. But for the sake of a peaceful exchange, I'll accept it.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
didnt send anyone and no one represented me.

OK. I can accept that. As to why one of the people that day outright lied to my Sifu's face, I don't know. I personally feel that such an act speaks volumes about his particular character, but I'll follow your lead and accept that they represented no one but themselves. Not you, not your lineage, not your art. No worries. It would be AWESOME if when anyone else speaks here, they only represented themselves, and no Sifu, lineage, or art.

I again return to my previous post about stereotyping (which you correctly observed gets us nowhere) and ask again if perhaps the blanket "HFY clan"-esqe statements could in fact be stereotyping themselves. And if perhaps posting as if a student of HFY somehow speakes for the lineage requires the same response as you shared, i.e. "no one represented me."

Just think, if we only responded to the individuals (on BOTH sides of this fray), we wouldn't need clarifying and defensive posts because it would actually be understood and implemented that we are all individuals here. Then we could spend more time on discussion. What a concept.

Anerlich,

Sounds like it's much the same as in Phoenix. Our city is so spread out that mass transit is expensive, not very convenient, and time consuming (relative to, say, New York), so it's usually not worth the effort. We don't have tains yet, but they keep saying we have a high speed train coming (although without the maneuverability of a bus, the destinations are sure to be extremely limited and probably just to a downtown centralized stop). Ahhh well, I'll stick to my car and morning radio (and the stop-start traffic that helps the clutch absolutely murder my left knee).

-Levi

Vajramusti

09-15-2004, 01:06 PM

Much ado about nothing.

I understand Levi's perception and I believe it to be his honest
relaying of what he saw and it does not have the venom of duende's and savi's posts on the subject...which was not started by me..

One thing that is not mentioned in Levi's post(he may not have seen it)is that the HFY sifu apparently wanted to show how strong a HFY stance was and asked one of the visiting students to test the HFY stance- the visitor did "touch" him and supposedly
the HFY sifu was pushed off from his stance. That is my understanding. No big deal.

It is an insignificant event in the scheme of things.
And the stories vary---Levi's, Savi's and duende's -who apparently wasn't there- and the student's.

Kurosawa's Ras****hon. Badly done in this case.

It would be a cheap and pointless shot for me to "send" anyone
over to a school in whose style(HFY) and operations I have
no interest. There would be no gain of any kind. Again, I had no connection to the event- unless per some esoteric butterfly effect theory.

Why make anything of it- over these months now.
Why not let it be.

Vajramusti

09-15-2004, 01:09 PM

Kurosawa has been censored by the forum robot!!:D

He is smiling somewhere:)

taltos

09-15-2004, 02:39 PM

Perhaps my post was somehow misread.

I was sharing my direct experience. Not going off of hearsay (as you have done so repeatedly since you WERE NOT THERE). I only include the information I had available to me THROUGH MY DIRECT EXPERIENCE. If any of the students in question choose to come forward and share their experience, then wonderful. But for you to consistently share information that you DID NOT WITNESS simply defeats the entire purpose of getting to the bottom of things, and makes you look rather silly when you spout out things like "hearsay" and "stereotyping" while in your next breath doing the exact thing you have just condemned. Here's a thought: lead by example.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
It is an insignificant event in the scheme of things.
And the stories vary---Levi's, Savi's and duende's -who apparently wasn't there- and the student's.

Actually it's not. Duende and Savi were talking about a DIFFERENT event in which my Sidai Savi was present, which is why I have not commented on it - I WASN'T THERE. Somehow these two instances have merged into a single event. THEY WERE NOT.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Kurosawa's Ras****hon. Badly done in this case.

No, it seems more like getting some lines of communication crossed.

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Why make anything of it- over these months now.
Why not let it be.

Good point. So... why rehash a "challenge" from OVER A YEAR AGO? What bearing (if any) does it have on ANYTHING having to do with this?

I am forced to repeat myself...

perhaps a good sized dose of your own advice would be in order

So lets see how well the next response "lets it be."

-Levi

taltos

09-15-2004, 02:54 PM

...what if responses took the form of "taltos" or "Vajramusti" or "anerlich" instead of "the HFY crowd" (even though I also study Yip Man and Chi Sim and somehow NEVER represent them) or "The Fong Sifu or Ho Kam Ming Sifu Crowd" or "the Aussies who loves to watch the fireworks crowd" (and I mean no disreoect by that, because sometimes I do as well)?

WOW. What a forum it would be.

-Levi

Rhat

09-15-2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by taltos

I am forced to repeat myself...

perhaps a good sized dose of your own advice would be in order

So lets see how well the next response "lets it be."

-Levi

Levi,

Good point. I can understand the nature of this situation. we can realize that our life can't be separated from Reality--from the life of the world as a whole, from the lives of the trolling-JOY. In other words, there's nothing to get.

Take Care:cool:

anerlich

09-15-2004, 03:19 PM

what if responses took the form of "taltos" or "Vajramusti" or "anerlich" instead of "the HFY crowd"

I think that was what I was suggesting.

Kurosawa has been censored by the forum robot!!

Perhamps the forum robot is a sop****re, and need to go ****her.

Vajramusti

09-15-2004, 04:28 PM

Taltos/Levi-- the last word is all yours.
Cheers.

Savi

09-15-2004, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by anerlich
Ummmm .... that you take yourself way too seriously and you need to grow a thicker skin? And you don't even know who I am, so what the **** is your point? Serious? Man, I just have little tolerance for stubborn old geezers and pee wee hermans who only have BS to say regarding things they have ZERO experience with.

Originally posted by anerlich
Your implication that he orchestrated it doesn't exactly show a lot of benefit of the doubt either. Perhaps you share the lack of diplomatic talent of which you go on to accuse Joy? Maybe, maybe not. Again you don't know me. Joy has provided enough dialogue with me for me to make that judgement. Sometimes the test of a person's character is when they are being attacked. Agree?

Originally posted by anerlich
I'll keep my critical facilities in place, thank you. Wasn't asking you to discard them. Your welcome.

Originally posted by anerlich
I never said you lied. I've got no reason to assume you lied, but none to assume you're telling the truth either. It sounds to me like an uinconclusive incident that got blown out of all proportion with the help of some rampant paranoia. I didn't say you accused me of lying. You stated that Duende and I have some agenda. Like it matters anyway. No big deal.

Originally posted by anerlich
The balance of probabilities and my impression of Joy formed over many years make it difficult for me to believe your accusation without proof. I have "reasonable doubt", the benefit of which you toot your own horn about giving people like Gangsterfist. I'm not here to persuade you or anyone of what happened. I don't give a rat's @ss what you think. It did happen, regardless if you or Joy believe it. I took care of it and that was that. First hand experience and eyewitnesses are all I have to validate the event. Then again, I'm not here to give you anything. Either get off my back or stick to your own drama.

Originally posted by anerlich
And perhaps not for you either? When it is warranted, I like to return common courtesies. Got a problem with it?

Originally posted by anerlich
IMO diplomacy is way overrated. This an internet forum, not the UN. Hmmm, you never gave me that impression. :rolleyes: Not the UN? Geez, didn't know that's the only place where diplomacy is appropriate.

Originally posted by anerlich
The regular quoting of lengthy tracts from MKF and posts from HFY108 instead of explanations in your own words don't exactly strengthen your argument or highlight your claims of ability for individual, critical thinking. Well, like I said, higher learning ain't for everyone. Just because you can't relate to some of the things we say here and on HFY108 doesn't mean there is no such individuality in existence within the HFY clan. I'm sure everything YOU read from our posts is just mumbo jumbo anyway, and that's why it all sounds the same to you. Who really cares if you care not?

Originally posted by anerlich
The WC world is doing just fine. Those who have incurable expansionist tendencies, paranoia, or care that they don't have a high enough profile or aren't famous or rich enough might feel under threat, but WC's still one of the highest populated TCMA's out there. I agree. Hendrik and Joy need to put up or shut up.

Originally posted by anerlich
Stop being so friggin' SERIOUS about it all. It ain't that big a deal. Your attitude almost demands ridicule sometimes. Maybe YOU are the one taking me WAY to seriously, ace. ;)