Who's the Master?

[AmanuJRY]

What is it that makes a person know that they have the understanding to teach another?

What knowledge is so finite that a person reaches a point when they can say 'I have mastered this'?

We all share our understanding of our art on this board and some tend to post in a way that suggest they have all the answers (I myself am probably guilty of this). Where does this confidence in our understanding come from?

[Hendrik]

What is it that makes a person know that they have the understanding to teach another? -----


Confucius said, the one who continously review and examine the old learning and arive at new paragidm has the capability to by a teacher.



What knowledge is so finite that a person reaches a point when they can say 'I have mastered this'? -------



rest on a tempur-pedic matress, one will be able to tell what is the feeling in the same time, one is sinking down but supported up.


http://www.brookstone.com/shop/ensemble.asp?ensemble_code=TP_8MATTRESS&world_code=1&category_code=30&subcategory_code=447&search_type=subcategory&cmid=0904_hmpg_B_09b

until then, what is mastery of Tempur-pedic experience? is it an experience or a knowledge?


BTW. one has to open one's 7th Chakra to be a be to be a master. :D (ofcause it is joking.)

[Dark Knight]

Who's the Master?

Sho nuff

[kj]

Does one really ever teach another?

Perhaps people merely assent, on any number of terms, to enter a process of exploration and discovery together.

Regards,
- kj

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
What knowledge is so finite that a person reaches a point when they can say 'I have mastered this'? Justin,

Great question........
I would say that in reality we never truely master anything in the sense that we can approach, but never reach perfection. It's all realitive. So, realitive to someone who starts training today, I may look like I know something I guess you really can fool some of the people, some of the time, when in fact relative to my sihing's and sifu I know very little. In my mind, you need the "permission" of someone much more advanced to teach to younger brothers and sisters. They should be able to tell you that you have reach a level of skill and understanding where you can guide students to a limited degree.

In the broadest sense, we are always teaching each other. Sometimes we just teach how not to do it... ;)

BTW, I don't take most people's comments as a suggestion that they have all the answers - although there are some exceptions. :rolleyes: Usually I look at a post as saying "this is how I understand this idea/concept, what do you think?"

We don't know what we don't know.
We know what we know.
We know what we don't know.
We don't know what we know.

[PaulH]

Who is a master?

He who gives the Tao to the lost, truth to the slave, and life to the dead.

Can one find him among the living masters? =)

[YongChun]

If a teacher does a good job then the student should be able to teach what he has learned so far to people who know less than him. No one knows it all. No one can do it all. One can't even define what it means to know it all. Ideally it is best to know a complete system so that teaching material can be explained from a viewpoint of the whole rather than from a limited viewpoint of just a part of the art.

Some knowledge is like learning to tie your shoe. Once you know how then you know how and learning stops. No use to analyze how to tie your shoe all your life.

Most things in Wing Chun can be learned in less than a year and the rest is physical and mental mastery to reach whatever level you can achieve in the time you have available to train. Wing Chun is just a subject anyone can learn. Some people become very good at it and others don't just like in any other school subject or in any other sport.

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by Dark Knight
Who's the Master?

Sho nuff

****! Dark Knight beat me too it.

I guess I can say I am (or Bruce Leroy)!


hahahahaha


Seriously though. IMHO, if you can put a positive influence on someone martial arts wise you should be able to teach them. You may not be able to teach them at a high level until you first understand that level of training, but definately on a basic level. My sifu wants all his students to teach others outside of class (aka - get your own students) after about 2 - 3 years of training. He thinks that teaching is an important training tool.

[Ernie]

There are no masters , just people further along the road then you at that time .we are all just guides that offer direction to the place we know how to get to
I leave titles, sashes/belts , and pretty outfits for beauty pageant contestants they need re assurance and ego boost .
Martial artist should not .

Anyone can show you something if you are receptive , but the best teacher can not help a closed mind , so it’s up to you

Better to be a master student , then a master

[PaulH]

Last night one of my Karate young friends decided to have "a taste for the other". He landed a roundhouse kick to my chest out of the blue sky. The next moment we circled around and before he knew it. I quickly rushed in, jammed his coming kick and gave him a couple of pops on his face damaging his eyeglasses just a little in the process! =) I hugged him right afterward and we laughed. No master of whatever WC there, just feel at home moving around and do my things. =)

[sihing]

Yes it's all relative, dependant on your definition of Master. Is one a Master in MA if they can perform something alone in the air(forms) perfectly, or has ultimate knowledge of a subject or someone that can utilize his/her technique in random environments with efficiency and effectiveness or all of the above? I remember watching the first UFC events in the early 90's, and do to the fact that GJJ was not well known then, Royce Gracie had little problem winning the events. I would consider him a Master of his craft/art. He was able to beat guys without really hurting them, which is hard to do, correct? Today this may not be possible for him just do to the fact that he forced fighters to be aware of the ground game and the effectiveness of GJJ/BJJ and other grappling arts.

If the label of Master is going to be used then I think it should be given to one by others and most definitely it has to be earned(using time in & skill as the primary measuring tools), instead of self appointment for the purpose of marketing one's self. In my kwoon we wear sash’s and uniforms(which I totally agree with, sorry Ernie, but over the years I have found that I tend to kick and punch faster with the uniform on, lol). Me, I wear a gold sash which signifies that I have completed the system and am a full instructor(Sifu level). I also have 4 red stripes on the end of the sash, each stripe signifies 2yrs at this level, so I have 8 yrs at instructor level. Once one has earned 10 red stripes they will receive a red sash which indicates a "Master" level, 20yrs at instructor level IMO is plenty of time in to be considered a Master at something. To earn a red stripe one has to be active in the association, which means consistent teaching,training and innovation is the requirement. Does this mean that one is the "deadliest" fighter alive at Master level? Nope. But it does mean that it will be dam hard to take this guy/gal out, I can guarantee that.

James

[Ernie]

James
But it does mean that it will be dam hard to take this guy/gal out, I can guarantee that.

--Of course he will be hard to beat , the opponent will be confused by all the pretty colors and sparkly gold things , be like fighting a Christmas tree


Sorry couldn’t help myself , you go on and be the best proudest pea**** in the whole wide world

Look there I go again =)


Bad Ernie bad Ernie now go sit in the corner until you learn to play nice
:D :D :cool:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by YongChun
Some knowledge is like learning to tie your shoe. Ray,
They don't tie shoes anymore. It's all about the velcro. There's a hidden message in there somewhere, I think.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Me, I wear a gold sash which signifies that I have completed the system and am a full instructor(Sifu level). I also have 4 red stripes on the end of the sash, each stripe signifies 2yrs at this level, so I have 8 yrs at instructor level. Once one has earned 10 red stripes they will receive a red sash which indicates a "Master" level, 20yrs at instructor level IMO is plenty of time in to be considered a Master at something. James,
You really impress me, man. No matter what the topic you always manage to get a plug in for the number of years you've been training and what sash you wear. You're something else man. :D

[azwingchun]

There are no masters , just people further along the road then you at that time .

First off, I love this quote by Ernie.....this is how I look at it. I honestly hate the term Master, I only use it when someone uses it for their title. This being just purely out of respect, not because this is how I view them. The terms Sifu, Sensei, Si Hing whatever you use are sufficient enough in my view.

Personally, when one says they need the title master or are given this title, it almost has a feeling that one has learned it all. And in many occasions, in my experience, this attitude is taken by the person under this title. Though, not always.....but is by many. I personally, will never use this term in our school, as I feel I am always a beginner. I would really hate to think I have come to an end of learning in my Wing Chun!

It is kinda funny......my kung fu brother and I were just discussing something similar to this subject. We have been discussing how the further we get in our training and personal discoveries, we realize how little we know. I realize some may find this statement funny, or maybe that we don't have confidence in what we do. This couldn't be any further from the truth......I feel this is just what happens once you start to let go of ego and open up a bit.

As for me.....I never compare myself to any other, that isn't what I am about. I could care less if I can enter a NHB and win, I don't care if I am ever considered the best Wing Chun man in our generation......it is just about being the best that I can personally be. Where am I today compared to 5, 10, 15 years ago?????? This is the only way any of us should rank ourselves in my opinion.

Ok, enough rambling.......I will go back into my cave and observe! LOL!!!!!!

[sihing]

Can't help it Bill if you have a problem when I use myself as a example. First you give me flack for "namedropping" then you do the same when I use myself as the example. Go figure. But I'm glad to impress...


Yes Ernie, the mixture of gold and red does a good distraction on the opponent, and it's pretty too, lol. I never saw the corelation to the Xmas tree until your post. Personally I like the traditional aspect of it all, but that's just little old me. I remember the first time I put on a pair of Kung-fu pants, I felt like that genie from Aladdin's Lamp, lol...

Azwingchun:
You shouldn't hate, it's bad for your health. It's only a term, a label. I consider my instructor a Master, but we do not call him that in the kwoon. He's Sifu, always has and always will be, but outside of the organization if I were to introduce him I would do so with the term Master infront of it.


James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
Can't help it Bill if you have a problem when I use myself as a example. First you give me flack for "namedropping" then you do the same when I use myself as the example. Go figure. But I'm glad to impress... James,
Sure, use yourself as an example. That's great. I just don't undertand why you continously mention your 16years/instuctor position/gold sash. For goodness sake, man, there are several people who post here regularly who have much more experience than you do and never speak of their position. I suggest you should take a page from their book.

However, as you so correctly stated, it is 'my problem'.

In any case, thanks for response.
Now back to our regularly schedule program.............................

[azwingchun]

You shouldn't hate, it's bad for your health. It's only a term, a label.

I guess you took my words very literally. There is no ill intent when I used the word 'hate' in my post.


I consider my instructor a Master, but we do not call him that in the kwoon. He's Sifu, always has and always will be, but outside of the organization if I were to introduce him I would do so with the term Master infront of it.

I hear ya on this.....though on a personal note (and not to offend anyone here) I only find the term self-serving (again, this is my opinion and not meant to disrespect). I guess I don't personally give merit to titles in general.

But as mentioned prior by you and I, if this is the title earned in someones group or this is the title one chooses to put in front of their name....then I will call them this when introducing them. Again, out of respect and nothing more.

This again, is by no means to be disrespectful to anyone, but as we all know, the term 'Master' can be seen very differently by each and every person viewing it. Personally, this lays within perception....or possibly by each organization's levels, within their schools only. And may have no meaning within anothers. And this also is true with many terms used within martial arts, not just the term 'Master'.

Back to the cave! ;)

[sihing]

well a big problem with the term is that it's been abused for decades in the west. I believe when you see a "Master" you will know it...

James

[azwingchun]

Just for fun......

master [n]

1) an artist of consummate skill; "a master of the violin"; "one of the old masters"

Synonyms: maestro
See Also: artist old_master

2) a person who has general authority over others

Synonyms: overlord lord
See Also: ruler dominate feudal_lord

3) a combatant who is able to defeat rivals

Synonyms: victor superior
See Also: combatant conqueror

4) directs the work of other

Synonyms:
See Also: employer postmaster spymaster stationmaster

5) presiding officer of a school

Synonyms: headmaster schoolmaster
See Also: principal housemaster

6) an authority qualified to teach apprentices

Synonyms: professional
See Also: authority past_master

I guess it is easier than I thought to be a Master! ;)

[Matrix]

John,

Add to your list:

1) A fisherman who is of consummate skill in baiting the hook;
"a master baiter"


;)

[sihing]

It looks that way doesn't it, lol....By the way check out that video that Matrix(Bill) posted on the "On the subject of grappling" thread, it's hilarious(Jim Carry plays a Karate master instructor).

James

[azwingchun]

Now that is funny Matrix!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sihing, thanks I will check it out! ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by azwingchun
Now that is funny Matrix!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you, thank you very much. My show is running through the weekend in the Coppa Cabanna Lounge. No cover....... :p

[azwingchun]

That was great!!!!!!!!!! I remember seeing that years ago, that was one of the funniest show ever. But the sad thing is....how many people have you met like that before? LOL!!!!

By the way, the kitten one was really good also! :)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by azwingchun
But the sad thing is....how many people have you met like that before? LOL!!!! Like they say, it's only funny 'cause it's true.

[azwingchun]

Soooooo very true.....

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Matrix
Ray,
They don't tie shoes anymore. It's all about the velcro. There's a hidden message in there somewhere, I think.

Guess I am showing my age. I still tie my shoes. I guess I have to restate that: "Some skills are like putting on velcro shoes. "

Ray

[anerlich]

What is it that makes a person know that they have the understanding to teach another?

When Sifu rings me on my mobile and asks "can you take the Thursday 5:30 class for me?"

[AmanuJRY]

Sihing
Yes it's all relative, dependant on your definition of Master.

First, let me say that my use of the term 'master' was just to get your attention....bait, if you will (Bill, I guess I'm a master baiter.....ha, ha, ha.........I can be so cheezy sometimes:rolleyes: ).
I have no predisposed 'issues' with any term used, be it master, instructor, sihing, si dai, etc. I understand peoples uses of them, and I'll leave it at that.

The question was, really, what does it take to be a teacher? or, what are the signs that tell you when you are 'ready' to teach?




Ernie
There are no masters , just people further along the road then you at that time .we are all just guides that offer direction to the place we know how to get to
I leave titles, sashes/belts , and pretty outfits for beauty pageant contestants they need re assurance and ego boost .
Martial artist should not .

Anyone can show you something if you are receptive , but the best teacher can not help a closed mind , so it’s up to you

Better to be a master student , then a master

I like what I am interpeting from Ernie's post. We are instructors from the time that we recognize that there is another who is not as far down the path, and that our experience can enlighten them. Also, a master could not be a master without first being a master student.;)




kj
Does one really ever teach another?

Perhaps people merely assent, on any number of terms, to enter a process of exploration and discovery together.

I love your sentiment in this, kj, but in the process of discovery and exploration we learn from each other and therefor teach each other.



Matrix
Great question........
I would say that in reality we never truely master anything in the sense that we can approach, but never reach perfection. It's all realitive. So, realitive to someone who starts training today, I may look like I know something I guess you really can fool some of the people, some of the time, when in fact relative to my sihing's and sifu I know very little. In my mind, you need the "permission" of someone much more advanced to teach to younger brothers and sisters. They should be able to tell you that you have reach a level of skill and understanding where you can guide students to a limited degree.

In the broadest sense, we are always teaching each other. Sometimes we just teach how not to do it...

Bill,

IMHO, the only 'permission' you need is from the person who would be learning. Permissions from sifu/sihing's are a product of 'system learning' and are for the 'system owner's' regulatory purposes. In other words, they are so they can regulate/monitor the learning of a particular method. In such cases it's easy to know that someone with 'x' level/degree will be able to teach the parts of the system below that point.

When we see learning as a more 'organic' (to use an Ernie term), and outside of a system or lineage (as with this forum), who we can learn from and who we can teach is less obvious (or more obvious, perhaps).




YongChun
If a teacher does a good job then the student should be able to teach what he has learned so far to people who know less than him. No one knows it all. No one can do it all. One can't even define what it means to know it all. Ideally it is best to know a complete system so that teaching material can be explained from a viewpoint of the whole rather than from a limited viewpoint of just a part of the art.

Some knowledge is like learning to tie your shoe. Once you know how then you know how and learning stops. No use to analyze how to tie your shoe all your life.

Again, when dealing with 'systems', knowing the whole or major section of the system is good for teaching the system, but when it comes to the first part of your post, that's the essense. When a teacher(s) has taught you something, and that something you can pass to another.

...as for tying shoes, I must not have mastered it.....they still come untied from time to time (and I refuse to wear velcro shoes).




Gangsterfist
Seriously though. IMHO, if you can put a positive influence on someone martial arts wise you should be able to teach them. You may not be able to teach them at a high level until you first understand that level of training, but definately on a basic level. My sifu wants all his students to teach others outside of class (aka - get your own students) after about 2 - 3 years of training. He thinks that teaching is an important training tool.

The keywords 'positive influence' strike me. And as for teaching being an important training tool, I couldn't agree more. Teaching someone requires that you reinforce your understanding.



Hendrik
one has to open one's 7th Chakra to be a be to be a master

I'm still working on the 6th.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
When Sifu rings me on my mobile and asks "can you take the Thursday 5:30 class for me?"

More or less the most obvious clue.;)

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
kj wrote: Does one really ever teach another?

Perhaps people merely assent, on any number of terms, to enter a process of exploration and discovery together.

I love your sentiment in this, kj, but in the process of discovery and exploration we learn from each other and therefor teach each other.

Like so many others, the mutualness (sic) aspect was also part of my point. I also understand and agree that teaching, at least in some cases, is the flip side of the coin to learning. So at least in degrees we are in agreement.

Peering a bit closer though, what is teaching if not to enable others to learn? I am not yet wholly convinced that one can compel another to learn. If one cannot compel another to learn, then it would seem that this so-called teacher is not the one primarily controlling the process.

On the other hand, one can learn even if there is no other person serving as teacher. Thus, at least at times, the learner is indeed the primary controller of the process, even if we consider them to be serving simultaneously as learner and self-teacher. As controller of the process, the learner then controls the learning as well as who the effective teacher is, even if the choice is made indirectly. In this sense, teaching is little more than providing one source of input for a learning process that occurs elsewhere.

In my experience and observation, it is also true, as several people stated more explicitly, that the person assigned or presumed in the role of "teacher" is one who learns much or even the most. Titles can often be misleading when compared to a broader or more accurate reality.

So I don't necessarily disagree with you. As with so many things, it just depends on how you look at it. Based on your other comments, I suspect we are mostly in violent agreement, LOL.

All of this begs another pointed question: Does teaching occur if learning does not? Furthermore, does teaching occur if the learning was something other than what was intended? But being a lazy sort and other demands calling, I am content to leave such musings for another day! :D

FWIW and IMHO, the best teachers are the ones who effectively help us to become our own teachers.

"Master" is a whole different, but perhaps not entirely unrelated conundrum!

Regards,
- kj

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by kj
Peering a bit closer though, what is teaching if not to enable others to learn? I am not yet wholly convinced that one can compel another to learn. If one cannot compel another to learn, then it would seem that this so-called teacher is not the one primarily controlling the process.

Maybe not so much 'compel' as 'inspire'. The ability to inspire a person to want to learn is priceless. The teacher-student relationship is symbiotic, as to who is primarily controlling the process, that can change periodically throughout the process.;)



Originally posted by kj
On the other hand, one can learn even if there is no other person serving as teacher. Thus, at least at times, the learner is indeed the primary controller of the process, even if we consider them to be serving simultaneously as learner and self-teacher. As controller of the process, the learner then controls the learning as well as who the effective teacher is, even if the choice is made indirectly. In this sense, teaching is little more than providing one source of input for a learning process that occurs elsewhere.

Isn't this (or shouldn't this be) true for anyone who is to learn something, even when a definate teacher is present?



Originally posted by kj
So I don't necessarily disagree with you. As with so many things, it just depends on how you look at it. Based on your other comments, I suspect we are mostly in violent agreement, LOL.

We are, but I like what it's producing.



Originally posted by kj
All of this begs another pointed question: Does teaching occur if learning does not? Furthermore, does teaching occur if the learning was something other than what was intended? But being a lazy sort and other demands calling, I am content to leave such musings for another day! :D

I will be happy when that day comes, these are great points.

I don't know who it was who said this, but I've heard it quoted before - 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear'.

interpet it as you will.

[Hendrik]

OMMMMM, who's the master? OMMMMMM, who's the master..... OMMMMM..

:D

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
but I've heard it quoted before - 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear'.

interpet it as you will.

Nah, the full sentence is -----the student is ready, the teacher will appear. and bring your major credit card to see the Big Kahuna! :D

I think that is from the movie -- the American Vampire.

[Tydive]

I think you guys rock. I was sure this thread was going to be one of those "who is the real master of WC" trollings.


Where does this confidence in our understanding come from?

Some people who have a deep understanding of a MA may not have either the communication skills or self confidence to share the information. So I would say that a large part of the confidence comes from our personalities, independant of skill set.


What knowledge is so finite that a person reaches a point when they can say 'I have mastered this'?

Your question has a flawed assumption. I think that when you master an art/skill it is not the end but rather a beginning. As was pointed out earlier, the more you know the more you realize you don't know much at all.

A master craftsman should not give up learning just because he graduated from journyman. In most of the arts a black belt means that you can perform all the basic moves of the art and so have "mastered it"... Let's face it, being able to perform all the techniques of any MA is hard work and very commendable, but that just means that now you can start exploring the extensions of those techniques. Mastery of the basics if you will, now you get to start on the artistry.

Now, if you want to talk about GrandMasters....

[duende]

Sifu Benny Meng posted on this subject sometime ago on HFY108.com

I'll share it with you all, as I thought it was very eloquent.

Here's an excerpt.


as you get closer to Master level, not only are you teaching the Way but you are also living the Way. If you cannot apply your martial art learning in your life, you'll always be a Sifu but not a Master in the true sense of the word. A true Master is not defined by the clothes he wears but by the life he lives. When you live your teaching in all areas of your life with experience in the whole system, you're at the Master level

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
Does one really ever teach another? KJ,
Yes, I think we teach each other. However, it is not a one-way interaction. Both the "student" and the "teacher" are learning from each other. Just my POV....

[kj]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Maybe not so much 'compel' as 'inspire'. The ability to inspire a person to want to learn is priceless.

Yes!!!

Burrowing deeper, and consistent with the initial line of inquiry, this begs the further if somewhat rhetorical question: What, then, qualifies one to inspire?


We are, but I like what it's producing.

You did a good job in steering the ship. Not always easy in these rough waters. ;)


I don't know who it was who said this, but I've heard it quoted before - 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear'.

I don't know where it originated either, but in my experience, it is true.

Regards,
- kj

[kj]

Originally posted by Matrix
KJ,
Yes, I think we teach each other. However, it is not a one-way interaction. Both the "student" and the "teacher" are learning from each other. Just my POV....

Yes, I agree that this is what happens in actuality. Though "inspire" as AmanuJRY characterized it, hits it more neatly for me. My original question was intended to challenge assumptions and seed thought, rather than to imply an answer.

There remain some interesting questions unearthed above, about the process of teaching, the process of learning, and the relationship between the two.

Even these questions spur more questions like: If teaching is a process, then is there such a thing as a teacher who is not teaching? If one is not presently engaged in the process of teaching can one then be a teacher? Is being a teacher a quality that is retained for all time, or just in the active moment?

Of course, there is always the dilemma of semantic circles. A more serious philosophical inquiry about what a teacher is or what teaching is may look significantly different than simpler dictionary definitions or customary social titles.

There has been a lot of honest and throughtful examination rather than too much being assumed, and so it has turned out to be an interesting thread.

Regards,
- kj

[Da_Moose]

Who's the master?


Why, Yoda, of course!

[anerlich]

Royce Gracie had little problem winning the events. I would consider him a Master of his craft/art.

To paraphrase "Master" Royce:

"A belt [sash, with or without racing stripes] covers two inches of your a$$ ... you'd better cover the rest."

Sorry to bring the debate down out of the ionoshpere, but Wing Chun is not neurosurgery, neither in complexity nor gravity. It just isn't that complicated or profound.

The teaching of self-defense is enormously important, but few Wing Chun schools really teach this. Those subjects are covered well in books like "Strong on Defense" by Sandford Strong and "Dead or Alive" by Geoff Thompson. Those who have read these books will know what I mean.

WC and most MA are mostly about pugilism or grappling ... not self-defense.

You can teach someone with less knowledge or understanding than you, and learn from anyone with more, but primarily your learning and your success or failure therewith is your responsibility, not any "Master's".

Education is a discipline with its own theories, fads and best practices ... about which I venture few MA instructors have spent much time learning or considering.

Everyone wants to think that what they are doing is the most profound and important thing on the planet ... but maybe treating it that way isn't the most offective way to teach, or to learn.

[sihing]

Good points raised by anerlich...

[Matrix]

Originally posted by kj
My original question was intended to challenge assumptions and seed thought, rather than to imply an answer. Sorry KJ,
I guess a rushed a little ahead of things there.


Of course, there is always the dilemma of semantic circles. A more serious philosophical inquiry about what a teacher is or what teaching is may look significantly different than simpler dictionary definitions or customary social titles. A yes, sematics. They can be troublesome, that's for sure. I find that dictionary definitions can be limited since there really needs to be a context for the word usage to really make it clear, and a dictionary cannot possibly cover all possible contexts.

Inspire is a great word. When I think of the teachers who have had the most impact on my life, I would definitely use that term with respect to them. You can still learn from less-than inspiring teachers, but it may seem like a lot of heavy lifting. In some cases you need to be your own source of inspiration, or look elsewhere for motivation.

While teaching may be a process, great teaching is less procedural and more reflective. Less about syllabus, more about the expansion of thought. Those "Ah ha" moments are priceless.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by anerlich
To paraphrase "Master" Royce:

"A belt [sash, with or without racing stripes] covers two inches of your a$$ ... you'd better cover the rest."

Nice quote, I'm saving that one.:D



Originally posted by anerlich
Sorry to bring the debate down out of the ionoshpere, but Wing Chun is not neurosurgery, neither in complexity nor gravity. It just isn't that complicated or profound.

Tieing a shoe is complex and profound to a child who hasn't learned how to tie knots. Your statement is true from the perspective of someone with experience in fighting, but how about to someone who isn't experienced? Who doesn't understand body mechanics at all? I'm not saying that WC is complex or profound, just saying that it is a matter of perspective.



Originally posted by anerlich
The teaching of self-defense is enormously important, but few Wing Chun schools really teach this. Those subjects are covered well in books like "Strong on Defense" by Sandford Strong and "Dead or Alive" by Geoff Thompson. Those who have read these books will know what I mean.

WC and most MA are mostly about pugilism or grappling ... not self-defense.

I couldn't agree with you more, but often self-defence will include MA.



Originally posted by anerlich
You can teach someone with less knowledge or understanding than you, and learn from anyone with more, but primarily your learning and your success or failure therewith is your responsibility, not any "Master's".

Education is a discipline with its own theories, fads and best practices ... about which I venture few MA instructors have spent much time learning or considering.

This is what this thread is for, considering the process of learning and teaching.



Originally posted by anerlich
Everyone wants to think that what they are doing is the most profound and important thing on the planet ... but maybe treating it that way isn't the most offective way to teach, or to learn.

So, then, what is??

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
Sorry to bring the debate down out of the ionoshpere, but Wing Chun is not neurosurgery, neither in complexity nor gravity. It just isn't that complicated or profound. But like neurosurgery it can save your life. ;)
I often hear people say that Wing Chun is not complex, and I have to say that I don't agree. It is much more complex than it appears on the surface. Like an onion, you must go through many layers to get to it's core. Then again, maybe I'm just slow.


You can teach someone with less knowledge or understanding than you, and learn from anyone with more, but primarily your learning and your success or failure therewith is your responsibility, not any "Master's". I could not agree more....... Some people seem to think that learning is passive, like watching the TV.


Education is a discipline with its own theories, fads and best practices ... about which I venture few MA instructors have spent much time learning or considering. Excellent point!! IMHO, this is such a critical point that it should be re-emphasized. Just because you have a certain level of skill does not mean you can teach it. You can mimic how you were taught (maybe), but that does not mean that you are effectively communicating the material. Each student's ability to learn is different and a real teacher is skilled at identifying those needs and making some adjustments as needed. You can have a Black Belt in <insert name of MA here> and be a white belt in teaching. I'm sure we have all seen it many times.

I have seen "instructors" who seem to confuse - trying to impress others with how much they know or how "good" they are - with teaching. They are as different as fish and fowl. Teachers, like students, need to check their ego at the door.

Of course, it is also encumbent on the student to be open to learning and put in the effort to develop the skill. Even the greatest teachers cannot learn for you.


Everyone wants to think that what they are doing is the most profound and important thing on the planet ... but maybe treating it that way isn't the most offective way to teach, or to learn. Really?? Everybody?? What I do is IMPORTANT, but only to me. And it is not profound, certainly not in the big scheme of things. There are moments of discovery that seem profound in that moment, but really, so many others have passed this way before that I would be naive to think that I am having any profound insights in the full sense of the term.

Nice points anerlich,
Thanks for posting them.

[sihing]

What's one persons trash is another's treasure...Learning WC can be very profound in one's journey through life, you never no someday it might save one of our lives, if it already hasn't. Compared to the many problems of the world it may not look profound but that is a Global perspective to which most of us have little chance to change or affect. In one of Steven Covey's books (7 habits one I think) he talks about the circle of influence (job performance) and circle of concern (Global warming). We should put the majority of our efforts towards the circle of influence because this is the area that concern's us the most and the one we can actually control to some extent. The other is out of our control base and should not be thought/worried about as much. Wing Chun is in our circle of influence and on that level is very profound for some, like Bruce Lee. For others it is just a fad and fades away after the allure is gone.

James

[anerlich]

What's one persons trash is another's treasure

That true ... not wishing to start an argument, but in my personal opinion Covey's book is monstrously overrated. Simplistic and trite. Then again, so are most self-help books. Your treasure is my trash. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm probably biased - the worst boss I ever had in my life kept 7 Habits in pride of place on her desk. I could write several books on how incompetent, insensitive and mean she was. She was physically attractive, and I still fantasise about her ... but my fantasies all involve extreme violence rather than sex.

BTW, her gender wasn't an issue - I've had several fine female supervisors with whom I've gotten along famously since.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
That true ... not wishing to start an argument, but in my personal opinion Covey's book is monstrously overrated. Simplistic and trite. Then again, so are most self-help books. Anerlich,
Mr. Covey's books do offer simple concepts which should be useful for many. Common sense, in an age when common sense is becoming less and less common. The problem with the self-help movement is that people take everything as gospel. They are looking for the magic bullet to solve their most nagging problems. Jumping from fad to fad.

Just like Wing Chun cannot be learned from a book, neither can productivity, improved personal relationships, or whatever else you can think of. You have to get off your butt and do something. Not just read a book. It may be a catalyst for change, but You also need to think for yourself. Take and idea and ponder it. Does it really make sense? The problem is, that real success comes from hard work. People don't want to hear that.... they want the "secret" to success. In other words, a short cut. I once heard that the longest distance between two points is a shortcut. How true. If success were easy, everyone would be doing it.

These books/tapes/seminars seem to put people on a short-term frenzy akin to a sugar rush that just comes crashing down like the latest fad diet. They are only concepts, but people fail to change their underlying behaviour and quickly revert to the same-old thing in a few days. Feeling inspired?? Lay down for a little while and it will pass. ;)

[sihing]

Funny you mention books, tapes and functions, sounds like you had a Amway business like I did. Books, tapes and functions were what we promoted the most when I was involved with this venture. The reason was to motivate and educate. The books did most of the education in the business, the tapes motivated with a little bit of education and the functions inspired and reinforced that this thing did work. Although I eventually quit Amway, mostly due to the city I was living in, I did learn allot from the experience and all those tapes I listened to(most of which I still have). Basically success in anything is a decision. It also helps when you enjoy doing what you are going to be successful at. Learning WC was a absolute joy for me and still is, so it was easy for myself to progress. When I began teaching it became even more pleasurable.

James

[Matrix]

James,

I tend to get my books and tapes from the library. It's much cheaper than the book store.

As for Multi-Level Marketing, I just don't have any aspirations of being part of someone's downline. There's better things to do with your time than be on the short end of a Ponzi scheme.

At least you learned some good lessons and moved on. With Wing Chun you have skills that will last a life time. Now that's value.

Peace,

[anerlich]

I once heard that the longest distance between two points is a shortcut. How true.

Ain't it just. The rest of your post is also correct.

[Miles Teg]

Nothing wrong with the self help movement. The self help books Ive read have so far helped me to quit smoking and lose 14 kg's (30 pounds). I seem to have a brighter outlook on life, and enjoy a better thought process.

For some people the values and ideology behind the books have been instilled in them from their parents or they have developed them themselves.

The 7 habits is one book that cant seem to hold my very short attention span. I thought Id try the audio version but still found my self dozing off after the first few minutes. Ive heard its a great book, I just cant get into it.

[anerlich]

Miles, I agree.

But the quality varies, and one's treasure is another's trash and v-v.

I quite like Tony Robbin's stuff, even though the firewalking he used to do was not my cup of tea, and he bears more than a slight resemblance appearance-wise to Frankenstein's monster.

Looks like Covey's book didn't do much for you either.

[Miles Teg]

Yeah Tony is good even though he can sometimes be a bit overbearing. I actually applied his neuro association technique to help me quit smoking and it worked like a dream.


No the 7 habits is not my cup of tea.

[sihing]

I like Tony Robbins also. I've read some of his books and have some of his audio. He has a process to help improve one's self and takes you through it step by step, sort of like a technology, but once again it is up to us to do the work. Actually I think one of Tony's programs is called "Master". I also like Deepak Chopra, although he is not really a "self help" guru, he has interesting concepts pertaining to the powers of the body and our true potentials, similar to kung-fu training and chi-kung practice. Tony's a little more exciting than Steven Covey, so I found it a better read/listen.

James

[Miles Teg]

I like Deepak too. His stuff is very thought provoking.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Nothing wrong with the self help movement. The self help books Ive read have so far helped me to quit smoking and lose 14 kg's (30 pounds). I seem to have a brighter outlook on life, and enjoy a better thought process. Miles,
I agree. The problem is that many people don't stick to programs, want easy solutions to complex problems, and don't address the underlying behaviour. I too have read more than my fair share of these self-help books. I have learned over time to be a lot more discriminating. To think about new ideas may or may not work for me. Take what works for you, and throw away what does not. Otherwise you just end up jumping around with the latest fad, and accomplishing very little in terms of results.

Just based on the 80/20 rule, you can guesstimate that 80% of the people will not make any given program work for them.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I have a master degree in electronics, listening to some of the people on this forum almost makes me feel that all of that hard work for that piece of paper is nothing, but a piece of paper. God has bless me, with the good life because of my hard work and that piece of paper. Wow! Some people have a lot too learn. Once you learn a skill or trade in higher education you are respected by the degree of your studies. It always has been that way all over the world, why change it now? it has nothing to do with ego. It is truly identification on which you are in higher education. Without it, I may have made a different turn in my life,I don’t know maybe washing cars or something. Which is nothing wrong with that, we all have to do what has too be done. I guess getting out of high school for that piece of paper is for dummies, and people with ego trips.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ernie]

pieces of paper don't hit back

nor does electronics , unless you stick finger in a socket ;)

next time i'm in a fight I’ll be sure to find the person with the most degrees in the area to have my back ,

I can use his pocket protector as a shield and his many pencils as throwing darts

and if all that fails I will direct the beams of the sun through his bottle bottom glasses and incinerate my opponents
:rolleyes:

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I have a master degree in electronics, listening to some of the people on this forum almost makes me feel that all of that hard work for that piece of paper is nothing, but a piece of paper. God has bless me, with the good life because of my hard work and that piece of paper. The piece of paper is just a representation of your level of expertise in your specific field. The hard work must be added. Also, in University, they don't necessarily teach you about some basic life skills. I know a lot of Engineers, and some of them cannot handle their money well, others cannot relate to people very well, some are in bad physical shape, and others are struggling with depression. "Higher Education" is not all encompassing. I once heard that we should work harder on ourselves than we do on our jobs. Keep in mind that wherever you go, you take yourself with you.

I don't beleive that we ever reach a point where we should stop trying to learn more skills. We need to be more rounded in our pursuits. Like your music for example, a creative outlet that helps us balance our lives.

You say that God has blessed you, and I sincerely believe you are right. Just keep in mind that God helps those who help themselves. You have obviously applied yourself with hard work. The knowledge and skills you have did not fall from the sky like mana from heaven.

Peace,

[AmanuJRY]

My thing with degrees (the paper ones) is, did that individual study/work hard and absorb the material to earn the degree, or did they just cheat and 'get by' like so many do?

In my profession (Electrician) you have to have an education (book learning) AND field experience to get the 'title' of Journeyman and you have to pass an exam (kinda like a bar exam for a lawyer). To get the title of 'Master Electrician' you have to have more field experience as a Journeyman and take another, harder exam.

I wish so many other 'professionals' had to endure that kind of process (I'm printing out my Comp-Sci degree as I type this).:D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
My thing with degrees (the paper ones) is, did that individual study/work hard and absorb the material to earn the degree, or did they just cheat and 'get by' like so many do? Justin,
Sorry bother, but I had to disagree with your post here. It has a "holier than thou" air to it. I does not sound like you at all.

To insinuate that degrees can be printed off like so much newspaper is over the top. Yes, I get some spam about once a week asking me if I'd like to buy a Phd. There will always be those who want to cheat the system, but in time they will be found out. Let's not tar everyone with a degree (btw, I don't have one) with the same brush. We don't need to take it down to the lowest common denominator.

The point is degree, or no degree, we all have a lot to learn that goes beyond the mere academic world.

Peace,

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

It is the same thing. It may not hit you on the head. But it will hit the pocket just as hard. The United State court system proved that many years ago, example the K.K.K. You get nothing from physical contact or violent but pain. I would love to be hit on the head rather than being hungry or near homeless away from my family, and having that piece of paper and title Master in my trade, helps gives me a better change from keeping that from happening. Some people fight every day, in some forum of way just to work and to keep their jobs, physically or not. But with that piece of paper and hard work I get the proper respect, because of the higher leaning. Remember some master never have too hit or fight in real life, but you cannot take away their skills or knowledges from them. If you don’t do the homework you can’t do the class work if you don’t do the class work it will be hard too work in every day life. School and studying is work, math, history, or even wing chun. Just as I said about working and studying, isn’t that helping yourself? Sure it is, and living right God will bless you for that.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ernie]

in a non combative element one uses a non physical way [ paper ] to show a level of skill , but you still need to preform the task

in a combative situation [ unless of course your just a man made of paper and only care for taking money from people]

you must step up , no one cares what your pedigree or dna or lineage or what ever

if that is why the seek you then they are just a silly

skill can be proven in an instant

guess what you don't even need to know how to read :p


there are many PAPER masters running around these days

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Slow down, no need to get angry, well over 50% of my students do not pay for classes and Nelson is one of them. And I give classes at many rec centers here in Detroit, free of charge, and that’s hundreds of children. You are way a head of your self I’m only speaking of respect for higher knowledge. Some understand and some don’t, that’s all. I must have hit nerve, unless of course you are a drop out and don’t care about education. Then it is understandable. No need to fight, slow down. and far as being a paper fighter. you can come test that any time.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Just as I said about working and studying, isn’t that helping yourself? Sure it is, and living right God will bless you for that. Yes, it is. I was saying just that when I said "You have obviously applied yourself with hard work." Sorry if my words were less than clear on that point.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Slow down, no need to get angry, well over 50% of my students do not pay for classes and Nelson is one of them. And I give classes at many rec centers here in Detroit, free of charge, and that’s hundreds of children. You are way a head of your self I’m only speaking of respect for higher knowledge. Some understand and some don’t, that’s all. I must have hit nerve, unless of course you are a drop out and don’t care about education. Then it is understandable. No need to fight, slow down.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

Look Player ,
you definitly don't know me
i don't get angry
just don't believe in ' fake B,S, in TMA '
too much out there , to much [ yes sifu what ever you say sifu crap ] not enough let me see what you got , lets see you pull it off under pressure

it's awesome that you teach for free , i have those i give back to as well , just like many taught me the same way .you must always put fresh water back int that which quenched your thirst

this is how you give respect not with titles and logos and belts and stripes

human to human


as for the money thing you made the money reference not me i just responded to it

so perhaps it was not my nerve that was struck ;)


if you need to believe in paper tiltes in MA then this is your choice
i persoanaly have no respect for them

but i do respect any person i meet with or with out [ titles ]

to each his own

or is it each on must teach one :D

as for testing each other no worries anytime your in cali look me up numbers on my site

if i go back east i'll pop in i'm always down for a good work out

[Matrix]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen....

We all see the world through the filters of our own life experiences, and that shades how we view things. So, two people can draw different conclusions from looking at the same thing.

Ali Hamad Rahim is a man who has achieved significantly through the classic academic path, and as such has a high amount of respect for Degrees, etc. I would also be willing to bet that he can spot a phoney from a mile away.

Ernie is a man who has achieved significantly through the school of hard knocks. No paper, but significant practical experience. Again, pretenders need not apply.

Sorry if I am making any incorrect assumptions here. I do not pretend to know enough about either of you.

To me they are two sides of the same coin. Both have value. You say "Heads", he says "Tails"..... So what. In the end it is the knowledge and skill itself that is of value, regardless of which path was taken to achieve it.

Peace,

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

That’s good too hear Ernie. I have always respect you and your post on this forum, that last one threw me for a loop, I will be going to Hawaii in Dec. 10 my student is defending his title at the 808 Fight Factory in Hawaii. I would love too have a workout with one of Lam students, for he is one of the best. That will be fun. Thanks a lot. P.s try not too call me player, Ali is just fine, take care.

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ernie]

gotcha Ali
you just bring the gully out in me :D

i'll be in hawaii in oct, to bad would have been fun smacking each other around on the beach

and it wasn't you i was directing my views on it was the whole brainwash title thing that drives me nuts

that's what happens when they take me off my meds ha ha ha


by the way the triangle clips weren't bad but man when you screamed and rolled with the pole
that was just funny
i was busting up
please tell me you we just playing around

[Ernie]

matrix

you should know me by now if i was really bugged by some one i wouldn't post it on a forum i'm still down for the house call :D

air fare is cheap and i have tons of vacation ha ha

as for academic achievement don't let my lack of [ spell check ] fool you i have 2 degrees under my belt non martial art of course
one is in the field of electronics

it just bores me ha ha ha

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Try this Ernie; tell someone too put their hands up, as far as getting ready for contact without making any movement on your behalf, yell as loud as possible, but don’t let them know what you are going to do. And watch what happens. Some will freeze like they just sh*ted on themselves. It works well on the street.

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[t_niehoff]

University degrees, professional licensing, trade certification, etc, are different than "certifications" or titles in martial arts. The former are all performance-based with regulated, widely adopted standards to ensure a minimum level of performance. In TCMAs, anyone can have a title or a certificate, anyone can confer a title or a certificate; these things are not preformance-based and there is no standard. Of course, many people are ignorant to the distinction -- the general public and the "recreational martial artists" -- and so when it comes to paying for lessons, they feel better (they are getting a bargain for their buck) if their MA teacher has a title and a certificate. The ignorant are easily duped.

[sihing]

t_neihoff,
I agree with most of your post. I believe things are changing in TCMA with regards to testing people for their respective skills. We have strict testing criteria in my kwoon, and those that eventually, if they choose to, receive instructor’s certificates are more than capable of teaching other's WC. Problem here is some associations make this a $$$ making scheme and create testing programs that are exaggerated and expensive.

I was lucky when I started WC, in that I had found a true master on my first attempt, not all are as lucky as I, and I would recommend that when one wants to start studying a MA that they treat it like buying a car, investigate and ask many questions


James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

If the mind cannot perform well under any pressure, you will not perform well over all, remember wing chun has very little physical attributes, outside of positioning, structure and timing, to me it is all mental in the Woo Fai Ching system. My Sifu is 5-foot 1in. in height. 110lb. If it was all physical and not mental (knowledge), I could easily drop him with one hit to the head. But in stead, he beats me like I stole something from him. How can he do that? And at that time he was 73 years of age. Physical I’m 6ft.5in 275lb and much stronger than he is. It is because of the higher knowledge and under standing that he has in the art of wing chun. Therefore it is mental which is knowledge. It don’t make a different if it come from someone speaking or from a book, it is still knowledge so therefore I will respect his certification and title as ‘Master” in the name of higher education or knowledge. I teach children of low income family, some just can’t afford my services but still have pride in the fact that they are developing their knowledge. And I would never take that away from a child.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Ali,
I agree that WC is a skill attribute based MA, timing, positioning, etc... As for physical attributes we do need some also, but when the average person comes in to start learning WC I believe they already have enough strength and speed to make the art work for them, all they need is the coordination. First people have to learn how to control their own movements (forms, chi-sao) to work in a set environment for themselves, then with practice one has to later learn the signs the opponent gives us to read them like a book. Once that is learned then self defense becomes allot easier.

As for why you cannot defeat or challenge your Master, even though you are much much larger is probably more a psychological thing, like the image we have of our Fathers, they are superhuman. Firstly you would never want to challenge him anyways, but if your master can achieve the level of skill that he has then it is possible for you too. Therefore if and when that happens, just because of your overwhelming size advantage you would in fact be able to beat him. Skill can take you only so far. If the skill is equal between two people then the one that is faster or stronger gains the advantage. Hopefully then we never fight other WC people, lol.


James

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Try this Ernie; tell someone too put their hands up, as far as getting ready for contact without making any movement on your behalf, yell as loud as possible, but don’t let them know what you are going to do. And watch what happens. Some will freeze like they just sh*ted on themselves. It works well on the street.

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)


not with the people i roll with , if you yell at them it's a good way of getting your jaw broken :D

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

I believe things are changing in TCMA with regards to testing people for their respective skills. We have strict testing criteria in my kwoon, and those that eventually, if they choose to, receive instructor’s certificates are more than capable of teaching other's WC.

**What is "strict testing criteria"? Just more nonsense. It's easy to determine the level of someone's skill.

Problem here is some associations make this a $$$ making scheme and create testing programs that are exaggerated and expensive.

**That's a small part of it but the major problem is that folks that can't really make their WCK work are teaching folks and handing out "certifications". I can claim to be a "master electrician" and hand out certs too but that doesn't mean I know how to install a fusebox or that my students will. Performance tells.

I was lucky when I started WC, in that I had found a true master on my first attempt,

**Sure. Isn't that nice.

[sihing]

Then t_neihoff how do you prepose to advance a student in a MA school without testing them. For the instructor level in our school everything is random(except the forms of course), so I would assume this would duplicate a street environment. Maybe you think it's bad to have a commercial MA school? Maybe we should all just give it away for free, to any Tom, D!ck or Harry that walks into the school, lol.

And yes I was lucky to meet my Sifu. Once you meet a Master you will know.

James

[t_niehoff]

AHS wrote:

If the mind cannot perform well under any pressure, you will not perform well over all, remember wing chun has very little physical attributes, outside of positioning, structure and timing,

**IME, while the "mental" aspects can limit one's physical abilities (e.g., choking in a crisis), one's physical abilities are primary -- no matter how mentally ready you are, if you are not physically able to do something, it just won't fly.

**And I wonder what it is you consider "wing chun" to be -- forms, drills? For me, WCK is fighting using our method (like boxing is the act of boxing, wrestling is the act of wrestling, wing chun is the act of "wing chunning" -- fighting with WCK). I agree that WCK is not a strength-based MA, but has many necessary "physical attributes", including strength, conditioning, technique, speed, timing, sensitivity, etc.

to me it is all mental in the Woo Fai Ching system. My Sifu is 5-foot 1in. in height. 110lb. If it was all physical and not mental (knowledge), I could easily drop him with one hit to the head. But in stead, he beats me like I stole something from him. How can he do that? And at that time he was 73 years of age. Physical I’m 6ft.5in 275lb and much stronger than he is. It is because of the higher knowledge and under standing that he has in the art of wing chun.

**No, it is because you're not really fighting -- you're cooperating with him. He's able to pull stuff off because you let him, like what happens in most TCMAs. If you don't believe me, go full-out sometime trying to just run him over and pound him. Can he deal with you then? If he can, why doesn't he enter a UFC and get rich (how many people would flock to study with a 5"1" 110 master that can drop skilled big-guys)? If you beleive this stuff, you need to wake up.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here we go again. No one said nothing about rolling, this got to L.R.C. OK LET’S RIDE THE SHORT BUS. I’m driven.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ernie
as for academic achievement don't let my lack of [ spell check ] fool you i have 2 degrees under my belt non martial art of course
one is in the field of electronics Ernie,
Nothing about you seems to surprise me too much anymore. ;)

As for Electronics, I have a diploma as an Electrical Engineering Technologist. I believe the equivalent term in the U.S is associate engineer, but I don't do that stuff anymore. I think the reason Wing Chun is so popular with engineering types is that the principles and concepts are technically sound. Interesting stuff....

making a mental note to avoid "house calls" from Dr. Ernie. :D

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

Then t_neihoff how do you prepose to advance a student in a MA school without testing them.

**Do they "test" in boxing gyms or muay thai gyms or in any gym that trains folks that really fight (instead of pretending to)? The test is everytime they fight. Everyone knows who is good. In most BJJ schools, the instructor just watches you roll (fight) over time, sees what you can do, and when you are ready will just walk over and hand you the next belt. No "testing" since the skill is determined by being able to use it (fighting). In schools that don't fight, they need some other way to grade -- hence "strict criteria."

For the instructor level in our school everything is random(except the forms of course), so I would assume this would duplicate a street environment. Maybe you think it's bad to have a commercial MA school? Maybe we should all just give it away for free, to any Tom, D!ck or Harry that walks into the school, lol.

**Can every Tom, D1ck, or Harry beat folks at your school? If not, you don't need to be concerned about them walking away with anything. But FWIW, TCMAs never have traditionally been concerned with "certificates." Yip Man didn't have one. ;)

And yes I was lucky to meet my Sifu. Once you meet a Master you will know.

**Many people are easily impressed. Does "master" have an open-door policy -- willing to mix it up with anyone that comes in? Does "master" regulary fight with skilled fighters from other disciplines? Has "master" fought anyone of any notable skill? I guess we have different notions of what a master is.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Matrix
Ernie,
Nothing about you seems to surprise me too much anymore. ;)

making a mental note to avoid "house calls" from Dr. Ernie. :D


House calls to friends are good things :D

trust me it would take alot for me to do something that crazy but in being honest with my track record from the ''old days '' i know it's still in me

better to just be happy :D


as for the testing for belts and titles sorry james that's just corny

it's like when you go to get your drivers license , sure your prepared and you trained and you have the date set

so what does it prove ? you were ready on that particular day against people you know

you should be ready everyday and be ''tested'' every time you train in one way or another

and wing Chun vs. wing Chun or worse wing Chun simulating some other art is just well ............... weak

I know you’re a good guy and got made love and respect for your teacher and system , that’s cool

but I have lost count of how many tested black belt I have walked through and I’m not all that

belts hold up pants but don't hold up much more
;)

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Here we go again. No one said nothing about rolling, this got to L.R.C. OK LET’S RIDE THE SHORT BUS. I’m driven.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)


ALI

how many times have you seen some one pop'n off there mouth
yelling and woof'n then get cracked in the jaw with that open mouth

open mouth + right cross = broken jaw simple math

i know what your talking about when you just punk or shock some one they freeze

but that is normally a timid person or a person lacking commitment

if he is there to fight and has some seasoning and you yell at him while in range he will just bomb

i'm all down for the street tactics don't get me wrong

i'm the first one to fake a high line and set up a ball shot ;) ;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I honestly tried to hurt him and got my nose and elbow fractured in front of my students. Spar with someone like Yip Ching, Ho Kam Ming or Eddie Chong, and you will see what I’m saying. Because they have age on their side, doesn’t mean anything. Come on guys don’t be fooled. how about lets all sit down and watch the Barnie show. Im taking a stop, it's time to park this bus.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

By me yelling didn’t slow down my attack and it didn’t weaken my defense, that technique (yelling) is called shocking your opponents structure, and that’s what I did in the pole entry. I bag up every thing I say; Just give a try, before you speak on it, that’s all I ask of you.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Im taking a stop, it's time to park this bus. Thank goodness..... I thought someone had cut the brake lines. ;)
Peace,

[sihing]

Ernie & t_neihoff,
Well once again to each their own. I still do not understand what the issue you guys have with a structured grading approach. When I graded for instructor level I was not grading for a title or a sash, I did it to demonstrate to my Sifu the lessons learned and how well I have learned them. Most of the test wasn't about technique, but more about heart and spirit. Since then has my sash and stripes gone to my head? I do not think so, as I have stated many times on this forum I do not consider myself a supreme fighter and I've been at it for a long long time. But I am proud of these symbols because they represent something, something of achievement and skill. Why do sport competitions hand out trophies then? It seems like tradition is going by the way side on this forum.

Did Yip Man have a certificate? Nope, but since his death who has promoted him to the level he has achieved, his students right. All the information out there today is from his students, and is represented by how well his students can teach and perform the WC. Ultimately this is the true test of a "Master". Can he/she pass along the knowledge to the student/s and maintain a high level of quality. Some Instructors choose to watch the student over time and then give them some sort of sign that the student has progressed, some don't do this way (especially in the west), is it really that big of a deal? Everyone is free to think what they like, but please do not mock another's approach.

I agree that one should be tested with every movement that they do in class or else where, it's called spirit of the movement and allot of people are unaware of this aspect of training and continually try to evaluate themselves. Sooner or later one has to let it all go and just do it.

Quote: Ernie
"and wing Chun vs. wing Chun or worse wing Chun simulating some other art is just well ............... weak "

Comments like this are really not necessary since you have no idea of the participant’s skills, training, and history. Put it this way, many practitioners of many MA have witnessed high level tests in my school. Haven't had any of them question it yet. This is not to say we are the "One and Only’s", just a statement of fact.

As for my "Master's" policies on challenges, since I am not him I cannot answer. All I can say is they would have to get through me first. Has he fought anyone of worthy? I do not know either, but has Vunak fought anyone worthy, or Inosanto, or even Bruce Lee, who did he fight that was worthy. Although I am aware of situations he has had in his life, to which I will not mention on a forum like this, where he has had to use it quite a few times. Most of these stories were related to me by others, outside of the school, by friends of his that were there to witness it all. Again, I will Put it this way, we don't have many knocking on our doors at the kwoon and we are a well known, established MA school in the city. We are not looking for trouble but we won't back down from it either.

Now I have to go, it's time for class and I have to IRON my sash and stripes before I get there, LOL....

James

[Ernie]

James
Quote: Ernie
"and wing Chun vs. wing Chun or worse wing Chun simulating some other art is just well ............... weak "

Comments like this are really not necessary since you have no idea of the participant’s skills, training, and history.]]


Just how I feel man seen it allot = the kiss of death , I don’t need to know their skill , if the training approach is flawed by lack of adaptability and honest levels of intensity ,[ when some one from another approach is really going to do there best ]

I feel the same way about any art that feeds off itself , incest

feeding of the same gene pool will create weaker and weaker copies


but James what I stride for and the environment that causes me to look at these things may not even exist in your world , and that is neither good nor bad

as for the whole traditional thing , if I had my way all that stuff would go bye bye

but I’m just evil that way [ insert dr. evil laugh here ]


now you go bruce leroy walking down the street with your sash all nice :D [ insert sound track to shaft here ]

have a great class:D :D :D

[anerlich]

In most BJJ schools, the instructor just watches you roll (fight) over time, sees what you can do, and when you are ready will just walk over and hand you the next belt. No "testing" since the skill is determined by being able to use it (fighting).

The Machado organisation (in AUS at least) has a defined grading curriculum. Four stripes on your white belt, three on your blue, same on your purple (I think).

You have to demo eight techs for each stripe on the white. Then for blue the entire 32 plus a few extra the instructor thinks up on the spot. And each time you have to roll, usually with fresh guys in succession who enjoy pouring it on while you are fatigued, including black belts or whoever else is there at the time..

From blue to purple, first stripe is demoing 36 techniques. The other stripes require first, preset combinations, then your own combos - plus more rolling.

You have to be invited to grade. You'll usually get your blue belt on the spot, but purple requires the head of the organisation here to do the test and the presentation, even if you've completed all the other tests. Very few reach purple in less than five years of hard training, plus you'll probably need good competition results or similar as further proof of competence to get the nod..

The requirements for brown and black are less structured, but there is still structure.

There is a charge for gradings, but this is on a downward sliding scale frm $40 AUS. After purple, you don't pay anymore.

In Kung fu, we also grade. I feel a grading system has value as it allows goal setting and demands that you become reasonably well rounded in knowledge and ability. A scheduled test also ensures that the student can perform under stress and different circumstances that regular training. My instructor normally has to harangue or blackmail people into going for higher level grades; so its not like they're seen as an easy way to get ahead, whatever that means.

When we were with the WWCKFA, there was an upward sliding scale of grading fees. Since we left them, we no longer charge fees for gradings.

Belts or stripes naturally mean nothing to anyone outside the organisation. Neither they nor certificates can fight for you. But IMO grades and test have value as learning tools.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Matrix
Justin,
Sorry bother, but I had to disagree with your post here. It has a "holier than thou" air to it. I does not sound like you at all.

To insinuate that degrees can be printed off like so much newspaper is over the top. Yes, I get some spam about once a week asking me if I'd like to buy a Phd. There will always be those who want to cheat the system, but in time they will be found out. Let's not tar everyone with a degree (btw, I don't have one) with the same brush. We don't need to take it down to the lowest common denominator.

The point is degree, or no degree, we all have a lot to learn that goes beyond the mere academic world.

Peace,

Bill,
Sorry, just a taste of my dark side I guess.:rolleyes: It probably stems from the fact that I have known a fair number of people who could afford higher education and ****ed it away, where I am constantly geared towards learning (I'm just built that way) yet I have little in the way of a piece of paper to prove any knowledge.

Maybe the words were harsh, but my point (which I stand by) is that the 'degree' or 'diploma' IS merely a piece of paper. The 'skill' of the individual is determined, not only by what they were able to understand during study but by what they are able to retain and how they are able to employ it. And I have witnessed people who 'get through' the education part so they have the paper only to use the paper proclaim their understanding instead of demonstrating their understanding. This is not limited to any specific area of study either.

For instance(without getting into specifics), being an electrician, I have worked on jobs where the engineer demanded things be done a certain way, with out an understanding of what it took to achieve that. I understood what was needed, and what factors the engineer was concerned with, yet, because I did not have the piece of paper, my suggestion was not considered.

I don't have any preconceived notions regarding titles or degrees, I just require that evedince of skill be shown as well as the paper. And please don't get me wrong, I'm sure the percentages are in favor of a person having the degree also having the skill, It's in the smaller percentage that brings out my dark side.

On the subject of testing, especially as it pertains to MA, I am in full agreement with Ernie, testing must happen constantly. Just because you were able to do 'this' at 'this' time doesn't mean you will always be able to do 'this', unless you keep it fresh in your mind by testing it. This should happen constantly and is the responsibility of the student, not the instructor. By that I mean that the student should train as though every form, drill, or sparring match were a test. It is the instructors responsibility to test in that it is their duty to be critical of the students practice. With this in mind, the formal test is merely a rite of passage.

[Gangsterfist]

open mouth + right cross = broken jaw simple math



What? I didn't know you could do math???:confused: :D :) :cool:


The thing with pyschological tactics is that like everything else what works on one person may be useless on the next. I used to be scared sparring people with more skill than me, because well, I got hit more often. Sometimes I wouldn't even use wing chun (or any martial arts training previous) I would just brawl them (jabs, crosses, uppercuts, take downs, bob and weave, whatever, etc etc etc) because when i used strict wing chun it was harder. Now that I am past that fear I don't even see their arms or legs, I just see a torso and head. Those targets are what I am going after. Sometimes though, when sparring someone unfamiliar That small fear will jump back and I might step back or side step at first before just attacking the centerline. It may take me years to get past that small step, but hey its something I am working on. However, it happens way less than it used to.

People yell at me all the time, i live in the city and get a fair share of my dealings with crack heads and drunken bums. They yell all at me up in my face when I don't give them change. All bark no bite. The very first time it ever happened I was a bit nervous, but after a few seconds went by I thought to myself, **** it, i'm not gonna let this guy intimidate me.

To practice and rely on scare tactics IMHO, is ineffecient. I am naturally pretty laid back so it would be much easier to just straight up punch me instead of yelling at me first. The first strike is always the hardest for me to block, counter, whatever because of my natural non agressive personality. Now, once that first hit lands its on. I have never been knocked out once, never been hit so hard I could never fight back. I am not saying there is someone out there that cannot do such things to me, I am just speaking from my experience. One thing my sifu always told me, once the intent is there the fight has already begun. So, if some guy yelled at me with the intent to attack me, I would probably just belt him in the mouth (that is of course situational).

Trained fighters probably won't fall for such things. I have also encountered people who stomp their feet to try and throw you off with a kick or foot work movement. Thats a good way to get swept against someone with skill

[sihing]

Quote: AmanuJRY
"Just because you were able to do 'this' at 'this' time doesn't mean you will always be able to do 'this', unless you keep it fresh in your mind by testing it. This should happen constantly and is the responsibility of the student, not the instructor. By that I mean that the student should train as though every form, drill, or sparring match were a test. "

In other words do the technique the way it is supposed to be done, with proper spirit. This is self testing and should be a part of all training, especially when you have some skills already. No use practicing a pak-sao punch against a straight attack slowly right? As for always having to keep it fresh in my mind I do not totally agree with this. Once I have it, and have reinforced it, then it is mine, its second nature and I no longer have to worry about it much. What's important when this stage of skill is achieved, IMO, is perception- reading what your opponent is going to do, looking for the signs he gives us. If you can interpret his movements you will react accordingly because it is in you already. Timing is also important at this stage. The best thing is that these two skill type attributes are always being trained. When one is practicing something specific, regardless of what technique or drill is being performed or defended against, perception and timing are also apart of your training experience.

Ernie,
Your choice of words, "flawed" and "lack of adaptability"? Did I give you an indication that the training in my school is such? I don't recall. Maybe it's because we practice forms that must be it. Or maybe it's because I bow to my Sifu, Sihings and Sidis when I talk with them, could this be the flaw? LOL. It's true when you say results are the only thing that counts. Do I have to enter the UFC to prove that? I don't think so, have you? You know, it's not like I have sheltered my self and am blindly following some sort of revered leader. I've tried since day one in WC to be open minded and to explore and discover other aspects of MA training and technique. Outside of my own lineage, the best I have seen so far is Paul Vunak and Emin Boztepe. Both have superb skill in what they do and are very articulate in their explanations of the concepts and principals behind what they do and I find it fascinating to watch their videos and such. Do I judge what they do? Yup. I've put enough time into the MA to be able to form an opinion of other's styles and system's. Have I learned something from them? Yup again. Do I think it's better than what I do? Nope. That's not saying that I could kick both Vunak or Boztepe ass. Maybe I could, maybe not. Maybe if I put more time into my training instead of going out and making a living, those two wouldn't stand a chance against me? Who knows and Who Cares. I don't. The point is I've seen what the best have to offer and I'm satisfied with where I am now. Would I like to train with them if I had the chance($$$$). Yes I would, you too Ernie and a few others on this forum, and I'm sure we would learn lots from each other. I don't know if that will ever happen, maybe, but I think it's fair to say we have to agree to disagree....:D

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Sorry, just a taste of my dark side I guess.:rolleyes: It probably stems from the fact that I have known a fair number of people who could afford higher education and ****ed it away, where I am constantly geared towards learning (I'm just built that way) yet I have little in the way of a piece of paper to prove any knowledge. Justin,

I know how you feel. We've all seen that. Growing up, we were not well off. I did not feel that I could afford to go to University. Took a trade instead. While I don't totally regret that, since things have worked out well for me, I know now that I should have done more to make that work. I was too busy looking for reasons to avoid the tougher road. It taught me a lesson. A lesson I have impressed upon my children. Get a degree! Find out what you like to do and get some higher education in that field. No excuses. I have highly subsidized both of their educations so that money was not a road block. They still had to earn a reasonable amount themselves, so it was no "free ride". I consider it the best investment of my life.

I also tell them, it's not about the marks per se. It's about learning. We should not just learn to be "test takers". We need to absorb the knowledge, know how to apply it. Those who graduate at the top of the class are not necesarily the most successful in the long term. There are other factors to success.


Maybe the words were harsh, but my point (which I stand by) is that the 'degree' or 'diploma' IS merely a piece of paper. The 'skill' of the individual is determined, not only by what they were able to understand during study but by what they are able to retain and how they are able to employ it. Your point is valid, when you put it that way. It was the blanket charge of "cheating" that struck a cord with me. There are cheaters and just-get-by'ers in every field. It has more to do with the individual than any particular classification or group.


For instance(without getting into specifics), being an electrician, I have worked on jobs where the engineer demanded things be done a certain way, with out an understanding of what it took to achieve that. I understood what was needed, and what factors the engineer was concerned with, yet, because I did not have the piece of paper, my suggestion was not considered. Ask any nurse who has had to deal with know-it-all doctors. Ask any admin person about the MBA. This is classic behaviour of over stroked egos. I've seen that myself, many times. What they fail to realize is that your degree does not come with instant experience. There are those who have lesser levels of certifications, but have greater insights due to their experience or just raw ability. They will be brought back down to earth in time.


On the subject of testing, especially as it pertains to MA, I am in full agreement with Ernie, testing must happen constantly. I am in absolute agreement on this point. Training time is too precious to be wasted on going-through-the-motions.

Peace,

[AmanuJRY]

Bill,

Hopefully, then, my dark side isn't so dark.:( :)


James (sihing),


As for always having to keep it fresh in my mind I do not totally agree with this. Once I have it, and have reinforced it, then it is mine, its second nature and I no longer have to worry about it much.

The key word here is much. Any skill, martial or otherwise, only becomes second nature when it is used constantly. Walking, for instance, is natural because you do it all the time. Try not walking for a time and it's familiarity would fade (it would probably take some time for this to happen with something as practiced as walking). Sure, once you have developed a technique to full understanding and it's second nature, you don't have to practice it (or 'test' it) as much, but with out 'touching base' with it somewhat regularly the skill will fade, and that fading will be regulated by how well it was ingrained in the first place.

Personally, I will opt for 'testing' my skills constantly, even if I believe I have it down. Just like walking, I want them to be so natural that I don't even need to think about it.

BTW, I still think about how I walk, from time to time.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by sihing
Quote:
Ernie
Your choice of words, "flawed" and "lack of adaptability"? Did I give you an indication that the training in my school is such? I don't recall. Maybe it's because we practice forms that must be it. Or maybe it's because I bow to my Sifu, Sihings and Sidis when I talk with them, could this be the flaw? LOL. It's true when you say results are the only thing that counts. Do I have to enter the UFC to prove that? I don't think so, have you? You know, it's not like I have sheltered my self and am blindly following some sort of revered leader. I've tried since day one in WC to be open minded and to explore and discover other aspects of MA training and technique. Outside of my own lineage, the best I have seen so far is Paul Vunak and Emin Boztepe. Both have superb skill in what they do and are very articulate in their explanations of the concepts and principals behind what they do and I find it fascinating to watch their videos and such. Do I judge what they do? Yup. I've put enough time into the MA to be able to form an opinion of other's styles and system's. Have I learned something from them? Yup again. Do I think it's better than what I do? Nope. That's not saying that I could kick both Vunak or Boztepe ass. Maybe I could, maybe not. Maybe if I put more time into my training instead of going out and making a living, those two wouldn't stand a chance against me? Who knows and Who Cares. I don't. The point is I've seen what the best have to offer and I'm satisfied with where I am now. Would I like to train with them if I had the chance($$$$). Yes I would, you too Ernie and a few others on this forum, and I'm sure we would learn lots from each other. I don't know if that will ever happen, maybe, but I think it's fair to say we have to agree to disagree....:D

James

First of James don't take things so personal ,
yes I believe any system that feeds off itself is flawed and lacks adaptability ,
just a fact

2 people trying to do the same thing attack and countering with the same basic idea lacks adaptability thus is flawed when viewed from the larger picture

you become very good at dealing with the same old thing , things get predictable

this is why there is learning , training , playing and then fighting in the full process of any well rounded approach

in the old days wing Chun did this against other styles
the information gained from having to adapt win or lose was filtered back in to help shape and evolve the system but more importantly the individual faced his weakness

since we don't have challenge matches anymore [ and it shows ]
the next best thing is to work off other systems to learn more about our own abilities , not wing chun guys pretending to be something else , yes even the ones that used to be a boxer or what ever they ''used to be '' and no longer train in that fashion or have the same commitment .

if in your school you have guys that have a good wing Chun foundation and go out and regularly work with other styles , you will see
1 they get better faster
2 they bring back great questions
3 there is just more to their motion since they have to use it for real

as for going out to ufc that's an extremist attitude
have I done it no , have I worked out with guys on that level oh yea
and had many reality checks

will I do it again yep

this to me is testing
getting in front of some one I don't know and I’m not sure what they got and having to adapt on the fly
there is a certain truth to the moment that you wont find working of guys from the school no matter how hard they turn it up


if it makes you feel any better there is no set curriculum in house in my school either but we are accepted and encouraged to go out and mix it from day one

and at any time if you want to fight , Gary has no problem clearing out the place and staying as a ref and letting you go at it no pads no gloves old school style fight

when we have people challenge us and it has happened same thing clear out the yard lock the fence and lets have a go at it

to harsh for most I know but much comes from it on an individual level if you are capable of learning from your experience

this is a test

didn’t know it was coming , weren't prepared but you just did it


since I have been through this I have seen the difference of in house '' testing '' and things on a more alive playing field
I stand by my words [ flawed and not adaptable ]

but like you said your running a business not a street fighter camp , so things get ****genized to a safer more controllable degree , as they should I would do the same thing if my goal was to cater to a larger base


agree to disagree no problem , like I said we all have our reasons for training and these reasons cause us to view things with different filters on


ps

you actually bow ha ha j/k

The vuak thing i have stood infront of him and trust me it's a hell of a reality check

[Matrix]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Hopefully, then, my dark side isn't so dark.:( :) There are several shades of grey, before it becomes completely dark. ;)
Don't worry Justin, we all have our dark corners. If we can shed some light in there, the demons disappear. Nobody is exempt.

Take Care,

[t_niehoff]

**Wisdom comes from experience, and there is a lot of wisdom in Ernie's latest post. Good job, Ernie.

sihing wrote:

I've put enough time into the MA to be able to form an opinion of other's styles and system's.

**It's not how much time someone puts into MAs, it is what they do with the time they do put in. As I said, wisdom comes from experience. What you learn depends on the experience you've had. If you've personally mixed it up with really good fighters you will have a different perspective than if you've never done so.


Have I learned something from them? Yup again. Do I think it's better than what I do? Nope. That's not saying that I could kick both Vunak or Boztepe ass. Maybe I could, maybe not. Maybe if I put more time into my training instead of going out and making a living, those two wouldn't stand a chance against me? Who knows and Who Cares. I don't. The point is I've seen what the best have to offer and I'm satisfied with where I am now.

**The "best" at what? Have you seen Vu or Boztepe actually fight? I've sparred full-contact with Vunak. Have you seen the tape of the Boztepe-Cheung fight? Trust me, you haven't seen "what the best have to offer". And besides, you don't develop good WCK from others -- you develop by what you personally do.

**But it's fine to be satisified with whatever accomplishment you have -- different people have different goals. My point is that we can't determine the level of our WCK skills without testing them. And as Ernie correctly explained, they don't get put to much of a test with other WCK people.

[Ernie]

I've sparred full-contact with Vunak.

t_niehoff


dude , would love to compare notes on that , hit me on a PM or live on this thread .

people have no idea , of the skill level that VU has and how it really wrecks havoc on all you thought was sacred and stable in wing chun concept

dealing with a highly skilled hybrid that can blow you out in any range and move at half your speed is just an awesome experience

I still refer to those training experiences with him and others on that level allot as my honesty and humble meter

but beyond even the individuals abilities , the training methods themselves are enough to keep you honest

[sihing]

Ernie,
Listen man, when you insinuate that the training criteria at my school is "flawed" and has a "lack of adaptability" I sort of take it personal. Just last weekend I was teaching how to enter in on the opponent. One of the key aspects of the entry tech is to have the ability to interrupt your movement along the way and do something else. Interruptability is one of the principal concepts of WC, interruptability means adaptability, you have to be able to stop doing what you are in the process of doing and change it to something else, its everywhere in the system. Chi-Sao is all about this, and other things. You know I like you, and I think your a great guy and it would be a pleasure to meet you someday to train and hang and all that, but I'm sure if I were to say those words about your school or teacher that would peeve you also. I've seen allot of the Wing Chun that is represented on this forum, and I can say allot about it, but what purpose would that serve. I've been plenty open-minded about WC & other MA and what's represented out there today, so far I haven't seen anything more effective than what I am learning/teaching, IMHO. Again there will always be those exceptional practitioners of every MA out there that can make it all work for them and put in the training time to make it work. It depends what you want out of it all. To me Ernie you are looking for a truth in combat and that entails a different path than I have chosen, and that's great and I wish you all the luck & happiness in that journey.

T_neihoff

Again, the WC we learn is tested, all the time in class at the proper level of skill. You’re not going to test a persons WC ability that's been in class for two weeks in a random sparring environment, there will be no WC here, just bad reactions and bruised egos. There has to be a training of the basics then progressively make it harder for the student from there, until it is all random and free flowing.


James

[YongChun]

To become a real fighter takes time. Progress must be staged in gradual steps. Students need to take time to go through their art slowly. Then after many years they may decide to turn into a reality fighter or not.

Some people or maybe most people can never become great fighters. Some people can never achieve even a blackbelt level. We all have limitations of body size and speed, time available to train, money to pay for lessons and availability of good teachers and training partners. No matter how many punches some short 12 year old female students do, they will never be able to match the punches from most guys (except in exceptional cases). There is no way small weaker females can escape even average wrestler holds from half athletic wrestlers no matter how much they train. But everyone can improve over what they currently know.

Fighting in the Ultimate fighting championships is like training to compete in the Olympics. Only a few people are able to do that. The rest shouldn’t worry about it or have that as their goal. It takes 6 hours in the gym every day and lots of sparring to handle what we call realistic fighters that include Thai boxers, boxers, Mixed Martial artists and the like. Furthermore that doesn’t even cover the real fighters who use bladed weapons or guns. Once or twice or three times a week for an hour or two won’t cut it.

Naturally most hobby martial artists will get a shock if they try to fight the reality-based fighters. It’s to be expected. So what? It’s difficult to say what training can guarantee saving your life when the threat is real. Most of the stories from newspapers where people have survived attacks, involve people who had no martial arts training whatsoever. Conversely, there have been enough stories of trained martial artists including masters getting beat on the back of their head with a two by four. It happened to a top Karate guy up here, to a Wing Chun master in the USA and to a top Northern style Chinese Kung Fu fighter in Toronto (he definitely lost “face” after that.).

There can be no doubt that fighting real fighters is the best reality check if you want to be a real fighter. You have to do that. If you want to compete in the Olympics then you have to compete against Olympic level talent. Most people in most schools probably aren’t into that and don’t care to risk their face day in and day out. It’s very easy to give the students of most clubs broken noses, split lips and poked eyes in order to teach them lessons about reality.

BJJ is very good but it seems a lot safer to do that all day long than to engage in something like Thai boxing day in and day out. Doing reality hitting is a lot different than doing BJJ all day long. In two minutes you can have your eye hanging out of the side of your face or look like that black guy on the backyard fighting film clip. So to me BJJ training is very close to Chi sau training and no more real than that. It just needs different tricks and tactics because it is a different game.

I don’t think we need to argue forever that normal recreational Wing Chun will have problems to handle bigger stronger Mixed Martial Artists or top Judo players or Thai boxers etc. A true hard core Wing Chun guy should train in a similar way and will not be inferior to anyone else. Only a few people are hard-core Wing Chun guys willing to risk their health. Most people have a life, a family a job to worry about and thus a limited amount of training time too.

[t_niehoff]

Ernie, will PM you later tonight.

Ray, yes "to become a real fighter takes time" -- but who wants to be a make-believe fighter? Most people won't be great boxers or BJJers, but that doesn't stop them from becoming the best they can or even becoming competant at what they do. They do that by fighting as part of their training. What you are describing is what I call "recreational martial artists": people in MAs, including WCK, who want to be entertained, not do anything combative, and think somehow (magically?) that they are developing good, sound fighting skills. These people are deluded.

One doesn't need to go through the art slowly, blah, blah, blah -- that's recreational MAs and leads to no real skill. You need to get into a combative environment immediately and return to it regularly, like boxers, bjjers, wrestlers, judoka, etc. all do. That's the only way to progress in developing fighting skills.

sihing, the first thing I do with a brand new student is have them fight a few times just so they have a benchmark from which to measure their progress. Routinely as he trains in WCK he will fight -- sure he will have warts and problems and do things wrong but that's why I'm there to coach him. That way, if all he has is the straight punch at least he can use it in a fight.

[Ernie]

James
On and off the forum we will always be cool , I’m might be discussing something with you but it’s not directed specifically to you ,
Sure I’ll crack jokes and I really don’t get the whole traditional thing in this day and age but I don’t get sports and I hate golf so these are my problems .
And I say the exact same things about the training at my school , very few want to take it to a live level , so I have lead by example and now many of the younger students are mixing it up with other styles winning and getting there butts kicked , even bringing in some of there bad A$$ buddies to spar me .
This is the reason I spoke with Gary to set up my attributes training to prep these guys for sparring and free fighting .

Most of these guys are really good at wing chun but then I put them in non wing chun environments and all the kinks will show , footwork lack of adaptability problems with range

They can chi sau all day and hit like mules but dialing in the timing with the proper distance and getting hit hard in the process from different lines of attack cause problems .

The beauty of wing chun is they do adapt quickly after a few sessions and then we amp things up or work on long range stuff what ever .

Sure training at Gary’s gets you very skilled at wing chun especially in application , but that is not enough , you must get out on your own and gain experience , the sooner the better .
Gary always tells us to train at a semi pro level , train hard keep fit but have fun , he understands it’s a great difference when taking it to a pro level , he has used me and my friends as examples , he said I would have to completely revamp my training to take it pro and he points out the skills of my pro level friends even though they are not wing chun they would eat me up and the pretty much most of the wing chun people out there , since the level of training fighting and conditioning is so different
This is just honesty and I respect that .

Being adaptable is not the same as being interruptible , adapting to something new and having the skill to formulate and execute a loose plan of attack is different from just interrupting one attack and going to another based on the counter . thinking on your feet is much greater then simply changing your mind

I would welcome the day we could meet hang train what ever , above all my training views , meeting cool people is the best gift martial arts has ever given me .


As for becoming a fighter , I don’t consider myself a fighter , not sure how to measure that . what I see is a process and that process should always move you into uncomfortable places , if you train 1 hour a week or 6 hours a day , the process should always challenge you


People have a lot of preconditioned excuses on why they can’t do this or that , but in reality they are only excuses , you can take any session and push the levels and learn from it . you can talk about this or that technique and what should work or you can find out for yourself

What will come into play in a street situation who knows , I don’t can’t worry about that just keep refining my skills and conditioning to the best of my potential and have fun along the way

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Ernie, will PM you later tonight.

Ray, yes "to become a real fighter takes time" -- but who wants to be a make-believe fighter? Most people won't be great boxers or BJJers, but that doesn't stop them from becoming the best they can or even becoming competant at what they do. They do that by fighting as part of their training. What you are describing is what I call "recreational martial artists": people in MAs, including WCK, who want to be entertained, not do anything combative, and think somehow (magically?) that they are developing good, sound fighting skills. These people are deluded.

One doesn't need to go through the art slowly, blah, blah, blah -- that's recreational MAs and leads to no real skill. You need to get into a combative environment immediately and return to it regularly, like boxers, bjjers, wrestlers, judoka, etc. all do. That's the only way to progress in developing fighting skills.



No disagreeing totally but if most students can't even handle unrealistic fighting involving standard Wing Chun with a bit of speed or even no speed, then what good does it do to beat the hell out of them so they go home bleeding (which is very easy to do and which is how a few Hong Kong schools train)?

We fight students according to their level. The better they get, the harder we push them but always with safety in mind. We have an Olympic calibre Judo guy who can easily sweep anyone to the concrete. However most beginner students don't know how to fall and a few concussions and broken bones won't help them any.

Those who hurry their martial arts in any style will all just end up looking like kickboxers from my experience. I have seen plenty of those types in Hung style, in Karate and in Wing Chun.

For us we have all types of people with various backgrounds. The grapplers can go into this mode anytime but they prefer to train on Wing Chun techniques. They have done all that grappling already for years and years. Likewise we have a few with boxing training and they have done all that but prefer to concentrate on Wing Chun also. These people can up the speed anytime and knock out the beginners but what's the use. As long as they can stay ahead of beginning students to challenge them that's good enough.

[AmanuJRY]

So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??


it's not how long but how ,

in the last few years i have worked out with guys that have up to 4 times the years i have and still run there own schools and they were empty

and i have run into kids with a few solid years that were good fights , just wired that way

depends on what you focus on i guess , you could get lost for a life time with techniques and this or that

or you could have a goal of becomeing effective and only focus on that

different strokes ;)

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, how about in the field of the hobby MAist, does it still take 10+ years to learn to be proficient with WC??

[Ernie]

if it's a hobby the being honest with yourself you will never reach mastery ,what ever that means:D

you will be a master of a hobby :D

there are no time frames only good training and results
bad training may only produce minor results over a long period
good training good results in a short period

smart training constant results over a life time with respect to age and life style

hobby training
hobby results with alot of talking to fill the gaps;)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
bad training may only produce minor results over a long period
good training good results in a short period

smart training constant results over a life time with respect to age and life style

So, what is good and bad training?

and,

Is it (good training) produced by the instructor or the instructee??



hobby training=hobby results with alot of talking to fill the gaps;)

I've chatted with a few of those.:D

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, what is good and bad training?

and,

Is it (good training) produced by the instructor or the instructee??




I've chatted with a few of those.:D


what are your goals ? goals define what type of training you need ,

example i was correcting a gung fu brother of mine he is a older gentleman with various black belts

he has been training in wing chun for a few years now
and i came down on him because he kept reorting to a broken hip posture , bending at the waist reaching out to far

he looked right at me and said , i have no desire to be a fighter and i am in no hurry to get any better i just like to train and chat

after i wiped the look of disbelief off my face

i thanked him and said i was sorry for putting my goals and expectations on him

lessons learned every day:D

[Gangsterfist]

Personally I do not train to be a fighter either (in the ring sense). I train to defend myself and my loved ones, and want to use the most effecient way to take someone down.

If it really comes down to it, I would use any means necessary and that is how I try to train. IMHO, some people confuse ring fighting, actual combat, and street combat. They all have their differences. I am sure some people will argue this.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??

Actually you are correct. The leraning time for the next style would be a lot less. So much for my math.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Personally I do not train to be a fighter either (in the ring sense). I train to defend myself and my loved ones, and want to use the most effecient way to take someone down.

If it really comes down to it, I would use any means necessary and that is how I try to train. IMHO, some people confuse ring fighting, actual combat, and street combat. They all have their differences. I am sure some people will argue this.

Let's break this down (beause, I see this argument used a lot);

To be able to defend yourself or your family (or anyone else) with any form of hand to hand combat means you have to fight. Of course this is not sport-fighting, it is a means of self protection (or the protection of others, in the case of the family, etc.). Actual self-defence has very little to do with MA or physical combat. If, your aim is protecting yourself and loved ones, and your goal is to be efficient in that pursuit, the most effective means is prevention followed closely thereafter by self defence weapons (pepper-spray, guns etc.). If you wish to include hand to hand as a means (which IMO is a darn good idea) you absolutly have to accept the idea that you are training to be a fighter (not nessisarily in the sport sense, but even more so). To say that one trains for self defence, but not to be a fighter (ring or otherwise) is a misnomer. Fighting is fighting regardless of ruleset, of course the strategies and tactics will differ, but it's still fighting.

Now, as for the classification of fighting types, there are only two;

sport fighting - with various rule sets, this includes everything from slap-boxing with a friend to UFC/K-1 stuff.

and

actual combat - with various circumstances, this includes everything from street fights to war (hand to hand aspects).

with one element that can be of either of these two catagories, which is;

challenge matches - depending on whether a rule set is agreed upon or not, and the severity of the challenge (life or death or not).

MAists can be classified as either those who train to fight, or those who train for hobby, or both. Those who train to fight can adopt a rule set for sport or go for all-out combat application, still their object is fighting.

So, your comment, G-fist is moot. You train to fight, and adopt no rule set for sport, were you to do so you would still be training to fight.