On the subject of grappling, a modest proposal.

[bagelgod]

For those of you who know what "A modest proposal" is, no, this is not about beating grapplers by eating babies. As a long time grappler, first time wing chun...ner, I've seen alotta things that need addressing on this board on the topic of grappling.

Someone asked if BJJ people talk about WC as much as WC people talk about BJJ, and the simple answer is, no. The answer to this is simple. There are hundreds of stand up fighting arts (do a search on wikipedia under martial arts. You will be suprised.) and not even near the same amount of grappling. We cannot afford to concern ourself with one style. We are worried about punches and kicks, despite the style. Once we get to the ground, unless the grappler is very unexperienced, there is little to no chance of getting back up. Especially with BJJ. The guard, half guard, every position is positioned to keep you down on the ground. So, believe it or not, I have the actual secret to not getting taken down. Why? CAUSE IM A GRAPPLER! The only way, as a grappler, I'm going to figure out how to fight other styles is by learning those styles. I've read in wing chun that backward steps are the equivolent of dishonorable deeds. So, I realized that most WC people will try to side step. Like I said, understand the style, and you understand the weakness. Another instance is, I used to ask myself how to counter the jab. Well, I studied the WC stance, and studied my own jab, and figured it out. Either learn the style, or don't worry about it.

Someone on here said they were going to start BJJ, and someone else replied that they should only do it for a little while, because alot of those moves end up for just grappling other grapplers, or something in that context. This didn't make too much sense to me. What's the point of learning how to counter tan sau? Who on the street is going to learn tan sau? Same thing with BJJ. What are the odds of finding someone who does that style? The same as finding someone who doesn't. Unless you are willing to throw yourself into as many arts as you can, like I did, worry about fighting other wing chun people. If you just want the basics, that's fine. But it is pointless if the other person is a grappler. You might as well not even do it unless you are prepared to...dun dun dun...cross train. Most grapplers have been in their art long enough to beat people who know "just the basics". When I was 14, I had been in bjj for 2 years, and could beat up most beginner adults, even though they had been doing it for a year and knew all the basics. Don't just do the basics. Learn the art if you want to defend against grapplers.

Anybody else on the subject of grappling, ask away. Cause I know for sure I'm going to ask the bejesus of questions outta you guys on wing chun.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

what?

i guess i missed the point but heres what i got from this.

you have to grapple to beat grapple, you have to know that style to beat anyone in that style.

if im off track sorry.

IMHO its not the style, its the person.Grappling vs WC who will win? i dunno, you dont know, he doesnt know, no one knows. Its all about the person behind the style.

i was acouple things i will never forget. There were pretaining to when to execute a move, what move to try to get, and when to grapple and when to strike. Basically when to do anything in a fight.

1. "when in doubt seek center(line)"-sifu brian

2. "locking, throwing, breaking, controlling, striking, maming, gouging, biting, pulling, choking..........just indictations of good flow"- Bruce

wuji

[bagelgod]

Although it may be the person, not the style, some styles don't have a chance in comparison. Do you really think an Aikido person would beat up a muay Thai fighter? No. My point on what I just said...is...uh....well, I just hate aikido. My original point was, you don't have to master something to beat it (although it doesn't hurt.), but you must atleast understand it. Heheh..bruce lee must have made many visits to a Vale Tudo school.

[Katsu Jin Ken]

may i ask why you hate aikido? to me its just japanese bagua.

also, ive heard on many, many occasions that a TKD fighter wouldnt stand a chance against a MT fighter in the ring.

wrong, and i have video to prove it.

[bagelgod]

Well, every aikido person i've met thinks they are the cats crap. And say, "Ok, put your hand here and I'll whoop your ass. No, no, here. Look, lemme do it." And so on. I've seen a few aikido masters...and...is it just me, or are they all fat? I dunno. And japanese jiu jitsu is much more efficient for the job. Anyway, that a different rant.

Could you send me the vid? I love seein fights. I've seen alotta MT vs. TKD and the TKD guy didn't turn out so pretty...

[YongChun]

I think learning grappling from a good teacher is a good thing and also fun if your body can take it (no back problems, knee problems etc.).

I think learning a little grappling won't help to defeat those whose art is grappliong and who practice it full time. It's like a grappler learning a little Wing Chun just in case he meets a Wing Chun fighter that he can't take to the ground.

Maybe just a bit of grappling is good just to realize the strong points and weak points of your personal Wing Chun skill level.

[Gangsterfist]

I agree with some of the points on this thread and this is a beaten to death topic. The bottom line is most wing chunners do not train to be fighters or train realisitcally. They don't build the attributes to become good fighters, which is okay by me. Everyone has their own goal with martial arts, and your goal does not have to be to become a good fighter. I can respect (maybe not always understand) peoples differences of opinion.

I also think that you do not have to cross train in another style of martial arts like bjj to understand grappling/ground fighting. You do have to understand how it works. Understand the basics and apply what you know and go with it. If it doesn't work, try harder, work harder, try something different. Fighting is not an exact science. There is an MMA guy in my class. He is always talking grappling this, grappling that, and he is pretty darn good at it. In hinds sight his wing chun does suffer from all his cross training and his chi sao is all technique based and not really using sensitivity. He cross trains in all kinds of martial arts and never stops to deeply learn a system. He is a jack of all traits and a master of none. He is definately a good fighter and has military training on top of his martial arts. He can handle himself pretty well in a ring fight. On the streets I would assume he would also fair decently, with the military training and all.

It all depends on your goals. I don't wish to be a good ring fighter, so I train realistic combat for self defense. I want to beat up the guy (or girl ?) who attacks myself or loved ones. So, I don't train to fight in the ring. My goals are to take out an opponet quickly and effeciently, not abiding by any rules or regulations. Am I at my goal yet? Probably not, but each day with training I am slowly getting closer.

[sihing]

Quote: bagelgod
"Once we get to the ground, unless the grappler is very unexperienced, there is little to no chance of getting back up."

Once again we have a statement of absolute here. Well yeah I guess if I just let you take me down and do nothing to stop you from getting me there, and then secure yourself a good position on top of me, then yeah I guess the chance of me getting back up is nil. But unless you are going to rush me from behind and catch me by surprise( like a coward would do) then you will have resistance. Once the resistance is in place then it's anyone’s game. Just to use an example, we have a MA magazine here in Alberta, and in this mag they have reports on various MA tournaments that have taken place, with pictures of the competitors and all that. One of the pictures was from a MMA event, in one of them one guy was behind the other, on the ground with his legs wrapped around the others waist and at the same time applying a choke to him. One of the junior students in the school was looking at this picture and asked me(as a full instructor) how to get out of a hold like this? I replied with the question, "How did that guy get himself in that situation in the first place?". Of course there are some holds and maneuvers that are uncounterable once they are applied to you, but that's where the catch is, not letting him apply that hold on you. Resistance alone with no regard to any type of MA technique will make it more difficult, add some skill in that resistance and it becomes that much more harder to apply. The same applies if I try to apply my WC technique on anyone or everyone, with or without MA/fighting experience. In my kwoon, we like to apply allot of forward intention in our techniques at all times. This tactic alone makes it harder for the other guy to do anything to us in the way of applying a clean technique, never mind when I start utilizing other tactics and strategies at my disposal.


James

[sihing]

Good post, I agree....

[bagelgod]

In this MMA event, was the person who was choked a BJJ person as well? Even if they were, despite the fact that they made mistakes to get there, they still knew enough not to make other mistakes. I don't have to be on top of you to be able to pin you on the ground. I could be on the side of you, even below you, so long as I have a leg wrapped around you, which is almost impossible to stop for a non grappler, and alot of grapplers. Even if I am on bottom, there are a plethora of moves that I can use, despite if you are a grappler or a striker. I believe you should have addressed how to get out of such a situation, if it was a basic choke. How would you know it was a basic choke? Well, unless you personally train extensively in a grappling art, I doubt you knew how to get out of it anyway or know differences between basic chokes and chokes that are set up (no offense meant, you don't train in grapplin!). All I can say is, if you are gonna stick to the prevention train, make sure they never get within an arms reach. Grapplers are tricky. In fact, keep em a leg's legnth.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by bagelgod
And say, "Ok, put your hand here and I'll whoop your ass. No, no, here. Look, lemme do it." And so on. That reminds me of this..........."You attacked me wrong" (http://www.agatsu.com/includes/inc_hitting.asp?iData=6&iCat=695&iChannel=4&nChannel=Files) :D

[sihing]

Concerning the picture in question, I'm not sure what styles the two guys came from. As for getting out of this hold I will try to describe it a bit better. Imagine you are standing up straight, and someone has jumped up on your back and wrapped his legs around your waist and has applied a rear choke as well, but now the both you are on the ground (both guys on their sides). Trust me, you or I or anyone would not be able to get out of this hold, at least not the way this guy has it on the other one. He's got too much leverage and the guy being choked has about 30seconds to get out of it before he is out cold. The key is to not get in that bad of a position and this is what I told the junior student. Recently I watched some GJJ tapes and my first reaction was that GJJ was just like WC but for the ground game. It is a very technical and sophisticated MA system and I can appreciate that aspect of it.


As for the best way to avoid getting grappled to the ground is to stay out of arm's length, again this is debatable. If I play the grappler's game then yeah I may lose. But if I surprise him or occupy his time with my own offence then he will have fewer chances to grapple me to the ground. Positioning, entry techniques, being proactive instead of reactive all play a role in a successful outcome for one's self, but basically anything can happen in situations on the street. No one, no MA can guarantee 100% success for everyone in a street fight or self defense situation because it all depends on "IF" you can execute your movements as natural reactions, at the right time and place. But I still believe that some sort of MA training is better than nothing for most of us out there today. For me Wing Chun allows this natural reaction to happen easier than other marital arts simply because it is simpler to apply and easier and faster to learn, plus efficiency and effective technique is built into the system. Wing Chun also transcends limitations for the people that are learning it. Everyone has different attributes and abilities but the WC allows all of us to utilize it equally.

James

[duende]

have you all seen this?

http://www.goshin-kan.com/yongchun/Filme/whygrapplingisbetter.mpg

[Matrix]

Well no wonder, the little guy has his elbows up way too high.
And don't even begin to talk to me about his stance......:D

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
Trust me, you or I or anyone would not be able to get out of this hold, at least not the way this guy has it on the other one. He's got too much leverage and the guy being choked has about 30seconds to get out of it before he is out cold. The key is to not get in that bad of a position and this is what I told the junior student.That is a Mate Leon choke with the hooks in. A BJJ player learns how to counter that as part of his training. There are several counters even when the choke is pretty well locked in.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by bagelgod
If you just want the basics, that's fine. But it is pointless if the other person is a grappler. Not really... all you have to do is learn how to counter the grappler's offensive moves and how to escape bad positions.. just enough to frustrate his game and be able to stay in yours. Much less time is required for this than becoming a complete grappler.

[Hendrik]

Is grappling Qi Na or Kum Na?

[anerlich]

Is grappling Qi Na or Kum Na?

No.

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by anerlich
No.


what is the definition of the grappling? (not joking)

[duende]

Originally posted by Matrix
Well no wonder, the little guy has his elbows up way too high.
And don't even begin to talk to me about his stance......:D

Classic WC mistake... Not knowing when not to Chi Sau. HA!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist

It all depends on your goals. I don't wish to be a good ring fighter, so I train realistic combat for self defense. I want to beat up the guy (or girl ?) who attacks myself or loved ones. So, I don't train to fight in the ring. My goals are to take out an opponet quickly and effeciently, not abiding by any rules or regulations. How do you train differently for "realistic combat for self-defense" vs. training to be a good ring fighter?

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the definition of the grappling? (not joking)

wrestling

[Hendrik]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
wrestling


Thanks!

That is the game of lots of physical strenght.

[sihing]

Knifefighter,
There may be counters to the hold in the picture but how effectively can those counters be applied? Would it be easy for one to get out of a hold like this? All I know is that in about 30 seconds you are going to pass out, and are in a very disadvantaged position. I can see that one could counter it before the hold was applied but not when the guy has it on like this guy is. If there are counters when the hold is applied like this then please enlighten me, as I am always willing to learn..

James

[Knifefighter]

Two basic counters once the choke is in:
1- Grab the wrist of the hand that is moving behind the head. Extend the arm straight, with the elbow in the shoulder. Pull the arm down with the pressure into the elbow.
2- Relieve the pressure by pulling down at the elbow around the neck and pulling down at the shoulder or tricep area of the same arm. Scoot your back to the floor and pull your head out.

[sihing]

sounds interesting but I still don't buy that these two "basic" counters will work when the hold is applied this tightly, maybe if the circumstance was not so lop sided they may apply..

James

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by sihing
sounds interesting but I still don't buy that these two "basic" counters will work when the hold is applied this tightly, maybe if the circumstance was not so lop sided they may apply.. They certainly won't work if you haven't practiced it enough against someone who is actively trying to choke you. However, I can testify that you can, indeed, escape from this choke when it is locked in if you are actively learning and training in a system that teaches you how to do this. Many times I have given people this choke as a starting position and escaped it.

[Tydive]

Knifefighter
How do you train differently for "realistic combat for self-defense" vs. training to be a good ring fighter?

In realistic combat training you focus on either taking the opponents out quickly or getting the heck out of dodge (or both). By this I mean maiming shots or brutal control moves or running.

In training to be a good ring fighter it just depends on the scoring system. Some go by number of hits (thus force does not apply, think olympic boxing or TKD) others go by knockout or domination (UFC or Pro Boxing). Others are for entertainment (WWE, Many Kung Fu forms). You get the idea.

Bagelgod

"Ok, put your hand here and I'll whoop your ass. No, no, here. Look, lemme do it."

I wish I did not agree with you. Small circles are better IMO, but there is a wealth of information in the art, just applied poorly. The only exception I can think of was when we had some very old masters come in from Japan (none of them were fat IIRC) and I was totally blown away by the level of skill they showed. I was able to attack them at full speed (strikes, kicks etc, not just grabs) and all I got was tossed effortlessly to the ground, in some cases without even being touched.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Tydive
Knifefighter

I wish I did not agree with you. Small circles are better IMO, but there is a wealth of information in the art, just applied poorly. The only exception I can think of was when we had some very old masters come in from Japan (none of them were fat IIRC) and I was totally blown away by the level of skill they showed. I was able to attack them at full speed (strikes, kicks etc, not just grabs) and all I got was tossed effortlessly to the ground, in some cases without even being touched.

What kind of art did those Japanese people do?

Ray

[sihing]

The Art of Fighting without Fighting!

[bagelgod]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Not really... all you have to do is learn how to counter the grappler's offensive moves and how to escape bad positions.. just enough to frustrate his game and be able to stay in yours. Much less time is required for this than becoming a complete grappler.

To counter all of the grapplers offensive moves requires alot of skill. Even a grappler can't manage that half the time. If you just learn the basics and go up against a grappler who isn't a n00b, then it will be tough times. My instructor has told me many times that one of the core foundations of grappling is patience. With patience, there is no frustration. They would just go for sneakier and sneakier moves, that only apply to people who are grappling, which you are engaging in when you use the basics. What is my point here? I don't quite know. But the basics will not suffice if you go up against another grappler, who spends all their time grappling other grapplers who know more than the basics.



Originally posted by AmanuJRY

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hendrik
what is the definition of the grappling? (not joking)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



wrestling


Just wrestling? No, grappling for me is wrestling along with arm locks, chokes, shoulder locks, wrist locks, toe holds, ankle locks, knee bars, and neck cranks.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by bagelgod
Just wrestling? No, grappling for me is wrestling along with arm locks, chokes, shoulder locks, wrist locks, toe holds, ankle locks, knee bars, and neck cranks.

True, but there isn't a dictionary definition that states that. Grapple, comes from grape/grab, take it from there.;)

[Tydive]

Ray, I guess I was not clear. It was an Aikido demonstration at San Jose State University back in the late 80's. A few of us taking the Aikido classes got to play with them. I was lucky enough to be selected for one on one.

Begalgod, I agree. Why try to fight somebody using his style?

[unkokusai]

Originally posted by bagelgod
Although it may be the person, not the style, some styles don't have a chance in comparison. Do you really think an Aikido person would beat up a muay Thai fighter? No. .


What if the Muay Thai fighter sucks?

[sihing]

bagelgod,
To execute any MA technique efficiently requires skill, not just counters to grapplers. The tone of your post would make it sound like it is impossible to counter a grappler unless you yourself are one too, lol. I just saw a video of a hapkido guy knocking out a BJJ guy in 45 seconds, so what's the story here then? I saw another one a couple of months ago with a kickboxer and BJJ guy, to which the kickboxer knocked the BJJ guy out cold under a minute into the fight. Yeah the BJJ guy's tried the shoot but, as with any MA technique, it can and was countered with right timing and execution, to which is one of the keys to successful execution of any MA technique. There are no absolute 100% guarantees. Yes, if one has absolutely no MA training and experience to what a grappler can do, then little to no resistance will be applied to the grappler, the same would apply for any Martial artist in any MA. You say it will be tough times for anyone to win when the Grappler is a "nobb", same holds true for any skilled practitioner of Wing Chun, but the key word here is "Skilled". The fact of the matter is in today's world there are allot of MA practitioners out there with false assumptions of their own skills, I see it all the time(today as a matter of fact). Even some of the fighters in UFC and NHB tourneys are kidding themselves. When they win their fights is it because they got lucky with the techniques or was it pure skill that won them the match(like Royce Gracie used to do in the early 90’s). Don't get me wrong, there are of course skilled athletes in these types of events but not all are.

James

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by unkokusai
What if the Muay Thai fighter sucks?

Excellent question.

I have seen these kinds of comments posted often, and the point that those who post them are missing is....one art is not fighting another art, a person is fighting another person. The art itself does not make the person. What does make a good fighter is experience. Most MT guys have hours upon hours of experience in the ring (and some on the street perhaps). Most Aikido people (at least the ones I know) don't spar/fight to gain that experience, but I would wager that one who has would give any MT guy a run for his money.

[sihing]

Yes, a true statement. For Aikido to be effective you better be prepared to set aside at minimum 10yrs to make it all work, due to the fact that it is a defensive MA. Muay Thai on the other hand is much more offensive, but they take one to give one for sure. You have to be tougher to handle their training regimen and technique, and also, if you truly train like the Thai, be willing to suffer the consequences later on in life. But like AmanuJRY said a true master of Aikido vs. a true master of MT, would be a good fight. As usual the same applies if you pit any true master the MA against another of equal skill.

James