Is it more honorable to talk trash on a forum?

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I do not recall you ever posting on this board before, at least nothing comes to mind. However, there is a topic at present inquiring about anyone training with or under Randy Williams to which I have not seen you reply. Seems to me, that you could reply to that person and set things straight.

Randy Williams is like many other Wing Chun people, some like him some don't. Rather then get upset by some of the posting of others why not present your view and experiences with his methods?

Peace,

Dave

[Tap Man]

Actually I've posted several times. And very rarely received a response. I think its funny how quick you are to respond to my post about about how some people like him some don't yet i don't recall seeing you saying these things to the chain of posts talking trash. I guess I should be thankful I received a response at all. And as far as the current post on Sifu Williams I am about to reply with text from his book straightening out this whole lineage mess. And hopefully shutting up some of the people on this forum who get free reign to run their mouths when they should know better

[whippinghand]

Ahh, you've only posted in 3 threads, not including this one. That's not a whole lot.

Why is it that Randy Williams followers are so eager to defend their sifu? You're not the only one. What does it matter anyway? At the end of the day, if your hands can do the talking, that's all that counts. Well, unless you're a JKD guy.

Oh yeah, you are.

[Sihing73]

Hello Tap Man,

What posts are you referring to, where?? The only post on this board dealing with Randy Williams is the one inquiring about those who have trained under him. To which I have noticed you have still not replied, but I guess you will sooner or later.

Just FWIW, I introduced Wing Chun to a guy in Bloomsburg, PA who now trains and teaches under Randy Williams. He is happy with what he is doing and I wish him the best. I do not have any direct knowledge of Randy Williams and have not received replies to a couple fo emails I sent him. Although, he did forward one of my emails to Bob, who is the guy in Bloomsburg.

Just for the record, one of the problems encountered when dealing with or mentioning Randy is the posturing which you yourself are taking now. Making vieled threats and attacking others rarely serves anyone. Randy and those claiming to represent him have, on occassion, made threats to others for discussing him at all. This has always been a little confusing to me as in his books, which I have ;), he gives credit to Augustine Fong and George Yau and did not come across as an egomaniac. Oh well, maybe it's not him but some of his "followers". Would certainly clear things up if he would take part in a discussion and set the record straight.

Now as to you; I take it you train under Randy Williams. If so where? Do you train with him directly or one of his students? How long have you been training? What exactly is it that you would like to set straight?

I have, in past posts, spoken neither badly about nor in favor of Randy Williams. Again, I do not recall having seen you post regarding these matters. I will say that your attitude will most likely not win you much support. You could be completely correct in your position, however, your approach is likely to have the effect of alienating people rather then gain their support.

Tap Man,
If you take the time to read some of the posts here I think you will find that many are open to discussion of differing methods. While there are times that some "trash talk" I feel this is the exception rather than the rule. Everyone will naturally be a little more defensive when the subject is their own Sifu. Still, most people here are, I believe, open to others views and do not down anyone out of hand.

I once again ask you to point me to the specific posts from which you are taking offense. If they are improper then I can assure you that some type of action would be taken. However, the only post dealing with Randy Williams of which I am currently aware, active at least, is the one inquiring of those who have had experience training with him. Having looked over those replies, all I can say is that if you find that offensive..........you need to change your perspective. If those posts upset you then you may wish to re-examine why you feel the way you do. If we are discussing another post then please point me to it. Be careful making vieled threats, sometimes things can come back to haunt you :) It might be better to present your point of view from one of tolorence, could get much better support that way :D

Anyhow, I am at work and need to get bakc to earning my keep :p I will be glad to discuss this further if you wish. You may e-mail me at either of the following:
Sihing73@juno.com
dmcknight@rcn.com

Peace,

Dave

[JasBourne]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> shutting up some of the people on this forum who get free reign to run their mouths when they should know better [/quote]

we could start with you.


Don't know what you are specifically referring to, but you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Now, I've never met Randy Williams, but I have seen some of his videos and books, and I can't say I was that bowled over. Fella seemed awfully impressed with himself. I would hardly take his word as the be-all and end-all definitive anything. Has a hell of a marketing machine going, though. Reminds me of Todd Tei.

If that's trash talk, well then there ya go.

--------------------------------------
"Wit is educated insolence." - Aristotle

[Tap Man]

I have been a member of this forum for a short while now. I have posted a few times asking about techniques, folklore and other things about Wing Chun. Everytime I have received almost no response. Yet I see that bashing my Sifu Randy Williams seems to be a great post for some people. Watchman in peticular. If someone calls my Sifu a phony and insult his ability why is it wrong if he offers to fight. Oh let me guess thats not the Gung Fu way to act. If he would have talked trash posting on a forum like this then he would have been okay. We don't take to trash talkers kindly at the Close Range Combat Academy. We would rather spend our time training and learning than constantly posting trash on a forum. I had hoped that this forum would be different and that maybe as Martial Artist we could respect the difference of technique or training methods, but I see instead It made up of a few dedicated wing chun practitioners and a bunch of no honor cowards. Theres a reason we stick up for our Sifu and fellow students at the CRCA, we have honor and respect something you may want to incorporate in your training.
TAP MAN OUT

[wingchun.com]

Here is an observation for you tap man.

Often the mere mention of the 2 words: Randy Williams, without any comment positive or negative brings an email response from a student of his offering to fight the person and "kick their behind".

There have been a few who have gotten threatening phone calls from Randy himself.

One has to wonder why the "hair trigger", go nuclear response to anything about the man comes from. Instead of going nuclear, how about stating your opinions, offering what facts you know and leaving it at that?

There is no doubt bad blood between Randy and Augustine Fong. There were a lot of questions surrounding this area which seemed to simply engender a response of violence from students within Williams's organization at the mere asking of questions. :mad:

I think a lot of animosity towards Randy generated from the huge collection of videos he made in parternship with Inside Kung Fu. Many questioned why him, when there are others with a longer time in the art.

Randy is obviously a photogenic and articulate guy. He therefore met whatever IKF had in mind for doing their WC series. That was IKF's decision and right--and apparently they and Randy have a profitable video line--good for them.

That is of course in the past.

From what I understand, Randy has also been studying BJJ from one of the Gracie members for a while now. Is that correct?

What might be a better start on the topic of RW, is for his students to discuss where he is located these days, what he is teaching, etc.

Rather than viewing every question about him as a personal attack on his character, family or the shaolin temple. :D

After all, how long has it been now that Randy has been in the Wing Chun teaching business? Who else has he trained with, what is he up to now, etc.

regards,

David

[Watchman]

I also recall publicly apologizing for my comments in the same thread you are mentioning and have kept quiet about it ever since.

>>>If someone calls my Sifu a phony and insult his ability why is it wrong if he offers to fight.<<<

I don't recall having ever called your sifu a phony.

>>>We don't take to trash talkers kindly<<<

Actually, you'll find that my trash talking to valid posting ratio quite low. :D

If it's a big issue, then you're more than welcome to email me at the address in my profile, otherwise keep the indirect insults to yourself.

http://www.wckfc.com/masters/man/Sec2-1.GIF

One is weak because he makes preparation against others;
he has strength because he makes others prepare against him.
-- Sun-Tzu

[vertical fist]

http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=769195302&m=72619 42391#7301905591 (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=769195302&m=7261942391#7301905591)

Watchman apologized. Good for him. As for mun hung, FUJIYakumo, and Handsome, whatever
:p

Tap Man, be at peace bro.

:cool:

P.S. Where do you train Tap Man?

[This message was edited by vertical fist on 07-23-01 at 08:29 PM.]

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Thanks Vertical Fist for giving the link for the posting which upset Tap Man so. I am still a little confused as these seems like an older thread and not one active. Seems to me that the time to address that issue would have been during that post.

Anyhow, this is starting to head towards the same type of thing. I would suggest that if anyone has anything constructive to share they do so. If all one has to offer are points of contention then perhaps we had best move on. I have said it before and the nicest way to put it is, IMHO, that
"SOME PEOPLE LIKE RANDY AND SOME DON'T"
Don't really see how this is any different than anyone else. I am sure some people like me and some don't ;). Of ocurse the ones who do like me, or say they do in public, receive just compensation :p

If there is nothing constructive to add lets move on.

Tap Man,
Feel free to email me directly if you wish. Or, even better, post some information of an edifying nature which can help us learn and get past the bashing. As I said, if you or other students of Randy, or Randy himself, were to drop the facade of anger we might be able to come together.

Peace,

Dave

[wingchun.com]

I and others who posted on this thread received the following email on it. Some things never change.

:confused:

=================================================
From: William Hill[mailto:bertronhill@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do.


I am sending this message to you on behalf of all of my brothers/sisters of CRCA-International regarding your comments and references about Sifu Randy Williams in the Kung fu web forum. We(CRCA) have a pure appreciation for what Sifu Williams has given us and we take GREAT offense to any negative comments to Sifu Williams in a public forum.

It is troubling to see you waste precious energy making derogatory comments about Sifu Williams when you should use your time to perfect your Wing Chun technique. Your comments and references are clear illustrations of how much you have to learn about Wing Chun. Wing Chun Gung Fu is a skill involving the study of combat using the Mind, Body and Spirit.

It is apparent that you are "Envious" of Sifu Williams. Sifu Williams’s notoriety came from living the "Gung Fu" lifestyle. He has earned everything that he has through persistent practice of the system. In his books and videos, he clearly states that he is presenting his interpretation of the Wing Chun Theories. What disturbs us at CRCA is that none of you have even met nor trained with Sifu Williams but you still have little "weasel" comments about his interpretation of the Wing Chun system. If you would have ever met or trained with him you would know that, he has never claimed to be the "Best Wing Chun" fighter ever. What is incredible is that you will not even back up your words with action when we ask you to "put up or shut up". When we call you on your words, you are so, quick to make our organization look like a band of bad guys willing to fight. It is apparent that you all have surface level understanding of Wing Chun. Wing Chun was founded on Combat. You fail to see that your verbal comments are threats! What we(CRCA) are doing is "reacting" to your threats due to our confidence gained through our Training!

I am sure that your teacher’s do not know about your words on the web. It is total disrespect for the beautiful Wing Chun system. I would like to thank you personally for helping me understand Master Bruce Lee’s statement about "how styles divide Man". We should all be brothers getting along and striving to preserve the art versus turning into a sport with your "sport’s fan" comments on the Internet. Let’s keep politics out of Wing Chun, gentlemen.

I am sure or would hope that each of you would feel that same way that we at CRCA feel if someone started to smear your Sifu’s name in a public forum.

It’s not that we at CRCA care about your opinions. It’s when you post your opinions about Sifu Williams on the net, it becomes slanderous. Instead of trying to drag you to court with legal(chump) red tape. We would rather settle it like pure gentlemen instead of hiding behind rules. But since you want to play by the rules how about following the number one rule on Kungfuonline.com forum that you participate in (Rules are very simple here: be respectful of others. In general, this means don't slander or libel another school, instructor or person). You are so quick to retreat when challenged for your words and hide behind the threat of a lawsuit yet you don’t even honor the rules of the forum. It is my understanding that the purpose of the forum is the exchange ideas/techniques to uplift the art!!

You are falling into or should I say have fallen into the "Chump" mentality that’s becoming a common occurrence in our country. You know, the guys who never played sports or weren’t good enough to play but still made the team that grow up to be critics. The type of guys who are to cowardly to expend the sweat it takes to train and improve but can sit down in front of a PC for enormous amounts of time to expend energy on placing judgments on others peoples training results. It’s all envy!! It’s the "Chump mentality" when we call you on your words and all of sudden you feel threatened. There use to be a time when a man had to be accountable for his words and actions. Those of you who are historians should know what I am talking about!! There was a time when leaders would fight their country's battles face to face and hand to hand. It’s about respect and honor for what you believe it. We at CRCA believe in our Sifu.

Wing Chun is a warrior’s art and because of this there should be honor and respect among all "Wing chun Warriors". We don’t have to agree on our intrepretation of the Centerline theory but we should have RESPECT AND HONOR for another warriors interpretation. Because you are not willing to back up your words, it would be very honorable and appropriate for each of you to post an apology to Sifu Williams for mentioning his name.

You should use all recognized practioners of the art such as Sifu Williams as guideposts to strive to develop your own unique interpretation of the system. You fail to see that this is what Grandmaster Yip Man did. He didn’t create the system but he expended the time and energy(Gung Fu) to master the system’s principles and past his interpretation on to his students to continue to develop the system. This is the goal of every instructor.

Wing Chun is a combat system not a chumps sport that can be surrounded by a band of puffed up ego’s who know it all. So, SHUT UP AND TRAIN. Why don’t you strive to add something to the art instead of taking something from it! In applying the Yin/Yang theory to this issue, there are two types of people, those who make history and those who read about it!!! Make the most of your training and make history!!!

PS. I have been a devoted CRCA member for 4.5 years. I train in Maryland. It's right outside of Washington D.C.

[vertical fist]

If the shoe fits, wear it.

Thanks for posting the email. He made some great points don't ya think?

[wingchun.com]

He makes points if you are into irony.
Or perhaps VF, you were being sarcastic.

Apparently for CCRA members, commentary and critique are "trash talking" and mentioning someone's name is slander.

One wonders how discourse in fields such as science, medicine and engineering would occur if that sort of thinking ruled the day.

Is Randy a public figure? Well given his books and what over 20 videos I would say yes he is.

That means statistically he is going to get people who like him, love him, dislike him, hate him or have no interest whatsoever in him.

This is a discussion forum the last time I checked. That means conversation will occur at various levels of discourse and sophistication.

Opinions will be expressed, information shared and sometimes, misinformation, and even agendas pro-offered.

Verbal comments are not threats.
Verbal Threats are threats.

And by the way, demanding apologies and wanting to physically fight people for offering opinions or comments and expressing their right to free speech seems counter to something that William Hill appears to have forgotten living so close to Washington D.C.

Aside from the fact that such things (either apologies or fights) aren't going to be coming anytime soon to them. Perhaps some should invest in an Anger Management course or two.

By the way, I have trained in Wing Chun for 7 years in California, it is not too far from Las Vegas.

[whippinghand]

... that Randy Williams sucks.

[mun hung]

I just got one of those wonderful e-mails also. I guess FUJIYakumo was right. It makes me wonder how many times this same letter has been sent out in the past.

What I stated was just my opinion of his chi sau from what I saw on one of his tapes. Just my opinion. Just like I stated on the post. Maybe as his students you could try explaining some of his techniques and make him look better, instead of sending out threatening letters to people.

You might even make a few friends along the way. ;)

For the record - I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. i'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. i'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. - for offending Randy Williams and/or any of his students. :D

[Watchman]

My feelings are hurt. :( :rolleyes:

[vertical fist]

Ok, Planet Wing Chun, I wasn't being sarcastic. I just read the letter with a "pick the bones out" attitude; meaning what here has value, what can I learn.

I will say this. There lacks a certain peace among some CRC students. It's one thing to take offense and another to allow bitterness to take root in one's heart. Sure, "put up or shut up", but most will do neither. Therefore be at peace in your ability and in your teachers ability. I know I am.

[bratok304]

I think that this Forum is just to trash talk others. Anyways, whatever ppl say about their kung fu style, training, sifus, kwoons, ANYTHING that they think is bad, let them be, you know you like it and no one has THAT time to waste on a forum.

lates.

:rolleyes:

[JasBourne]

no kidding, you actually got that email? whoa, those guys HAVE GOT to get real lives.

"It’s not that we at CRCA care about your opinions. It’s when you post your opinions about Sifu Williams on the net, it becomes slanderous".

actually, it's called free speech. And it looks like they care plenty. What a bunch of losers.

[tnwingtsun]

His bamboo ring can develop bad habits for beginners,too much outward intention is focused on the ring instead of center and foward pressure.

[whippinghand]

... lead to idiot students.

[mun hung]

lol - you are one funny guy!

[mun hung]

Now's the time to defend your SiFu! Since we are all in the spirit of discussion here on this forum, maybe you can explain some of the theories behind RW's techniques. Tell us about the rattan rings. Then maybe you can explain why RW flicks his hand towards his opponent when doing fook sau. Help us out! ;)

[vertical fist]

Wiping Hand, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks..."

mun hung, spirit of discussion?!? :rolleyes: more like a spirit of buffonery! Sifu Williams can defend himself. :)

I can't help you in explaining any of his Rattan ring/ chi sau teachings. I'm new to WC and CRCA. Tell me about fook sau and how you use it in chi sau, hows it differ from SRW's?

Let's breathe new life into this thread, shall we? Let us seek to edify each other, "as iron sharpens iron".


:cool:

[mun hung]

Yes, spirit of discussion. Not spirit of buffonery. (buffonery? What the hell is that???) If you mean to insult, use correct spelling please.
;)

And I think that's "Whipping Hand" - not "Wiping Hand".
:D

[whippinghand]

Thanks you Mun Hung.

[chi-kwai]

perspective.

--
chi kwai