pointless?

[Cranestyle]

Hi! I have a question for all of you practitioners of meditation.

if the underlying purpose of meditation is to be in the 'present' and be alert, and the ultimate aim is to develop a permanent state of full awareness in your life, what is the actual point in any sitting meditations or formal meditation processess?

Surely developing an 'awareness' from being in a certain enviroment (e.g. alone in a quiet room with incense etc.) will mean that any interaction with the world that causes this enviroment to change will also lead your awareness to be disrupted. You will surely formulate attachment towards certain methods in order to 'acheive' awareness rather than attempting to intergrate awareness into every aspect of your waking life.

Therefore surely these practices are pointless as they are bound to have the awareness disrupted at some point as one cannot live in isolation from the world in todays age. Not only would they be pointless but they may lead you further away from enlightenment as you will feel like you have to be in certain conditions in order to be fully aware of the present moment.

So surely instead of dedicating our time to methods that provide a false sense of gaining something whilst actually not going anywhere in the long term (in terms of progressing towards enlightenment) it would be far more productive to dedicate your internal energies to being 'aware' within everyday life and society?

I am sorry if this has been addressed before, I do not visit this place often!

Thanks

[SPJ]

Good points.

There are several types of meditations.

1) Quieting your mind by quieting your heart. You focus on your breathing. Then the rest of the body. You mind and the body become one. You develop more acutey in the senses of your body. Your mind is clear, uncluttered, and focused.

This way you may perceive things as things are, and not influenced by your emotions, preconceptions or prejudices.

This practice is good for health. Your mind and emotions are rested and refreshed. This is good for martial arts practice. This is also good to think, analyze or meditate things in life and fightings with a freshed and focused mind.


2) Cognitive meditation.

Pick a topic. And state it with what, where, when, how, why, who etc.

Lists all pros and cons.

Integrate all info. Search a central theme. Or find a point applies to all. That theme or point is the truth. You are on your way to see things clearly in light, thus the name is enlightenment.

No doctrines. No words. See everything with your heart.

This is the transmission of Chan.

There are many other types of meditations.

Prayer is for religious purpose.

On and on.

[SPJ]

What is I?

My name, my birthdate, my nationality, my personality, my profession, my skill and knowledge in TCMA, my looks, my age---

No. These are all attachments to I.

I have Christian belief. I have honesty. I work hard.---

These are I.

My consciousness, my awarenss (of me and everything in life), or me being me.

That is I.

[SPJ]

What is the point of meditation?

Meditation is to see things as things are with a clear or illumious mind.

How to do it?

The TV said. The newspaper said. The President said. The books said.

Yes. Yes.

What DO YOU say?


:)

[SPJ]

What is attachment?

If need to eat, we eat enough.

If need to rest, rest enough.

If need to travel to work, use whatever is available. If you insist on driving a Jaguar, a v-8 SUV, where subway or bus is readily available. That is an attachment.

If need to communicate, fax, e-mail, phone, letter, depends on timing. If you insist on ever newer cell phones, that is an attachment.

In short, you may eat small meals and rest in an apartment. If you insist on 150 course meals and a huge palace like an emperor of China, that is the attachment.

To understand life or appreciate life, you need to unclutter your mind and remove all attachments.

I am used to play pokers. I am used to watch TV. I am used to chat on line. I am---

Make some time away from all these and meditate.

:)

[SPJ]

Yes. Indeed.

The point of meditation is that there is no point.

The point of life is ?

Does everything need to have a point to exist?

What is the point of having fun?

What is the point of being successful?

What is the point of being wealthy?

What is the point of being fit?

What is the point to have an army?

What is the point to live?

What is the point to let live?

What is the point to have a point?

In short, pointless is also a point?

:D

[FngSaiYuk]

What is meditation?

It's a method of training/excercising the nervous system. Is it effective? A LOT of people claim it is. What can it do? There are many different ways of training and excercising the nervous system. The various excercises have benefits and sometimes negative results in just as many different aspects of the mind and body.

Really, when asking if it makes sense whether or not still meditation can increase your alertness in movement, well there really isn't enough scientific data to come to a conclusion. Do it if you really want to, or don't. It's no big deal.

[Cranestyle]

hello again! Thanks for the replies but i think that there has been some misinterpretation of the question.

The question wasn't "what is meditation" or "what the different types of meditation are" What I am saying is that if the underlying purpose of these meditations is in the long term to try and bring a state of enlightenment through an unwavering awareness to the practitioners lives - then what is the point in seperating times when we are meditating and times when we are not meditating?
All these methods are going to create is an attachment to certain conditions in order to maintain awareness and once these conditions are disrupted (which they are certainly going to be) your little bit of false conditional awareness is going to crumble down, leaving you needing your next little fix of meditation before you start going cold turkey and your mind comes back as the master even stronger than before. The results of meditations based on methods are going to be temporary, so surely these excercises are (if the practitioner is after enlightenment) absolutely pointless and are actually just as much of a short term 'sense pleasure' happiness fix as doing drugs etc.

So why do them? Why not try and devote energy to increasing awareness in daily life? Why increase the boundries seperating your everyday life with meditation? Surely the meditative awareness produced that remains whilst actually 'in' society is the only awareness that ever applies because it is present both when you are alone and when you are interacting with others or experiencing certain conditions that may be disruptive.
The type of awareness produced by me sitting in a warm room with incense and music is a sham as it gets destroyed as soon as adverse conditions start to happen.

-So Why Do It?-

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

My own experience leads me to believe that meditation, ultimately, is designed to bypass prejudicial thought processes and see the experiences as they are.. One of the more profound aspects of Taiji is its training in movement without thought.. we practice repetitively until we no longer need to think about the form, we simply experience it.. hopefully, we can move that "stillness in motion" to our everyday lives, and begin to experience life without the deceptive prejudices..

Although visualizations, chantings, forms, etc.. may serve to initiate some quality of meditation, they are not meditation itself.. they are only tools to help us get there.. too many people get trapped in tools stage and miss the purity of "no mind" (no preconceptions).. in the "be here now" scenario, thought is what separates us from the present experience.. while considering the previous experience the one actually unfolding in the present is unnoticed or lacking our full attention..

So, if the goal (as i see it) is to live a meditative life, shrines and special times of meditation may actually distance us from that goal.. or, may just be a temporary path toward that goal.. the wisdom is to be certain of the goal..

Be well...

[emre]

Cranestyle,

Here's my question to you:

When you begin training in the martial arts, do you go out and pick a fight with a streetgang on the first day?

Here's another one:

Did you drive in busy traffic the first day you got behind the steering wheel?

[Cranestyle]

I did not start a streetfight with a gang on my first day of training, because there is an obvious threat of danger, e.g. if i start a fight i will get injured. besides this there is no reason to, as what would i gain by beating up a load of people for no reason? Pride?

I did not drive in traffic the first time i drove because there is an obvious threat of danger. If i drive in traffic there is a high chance i will get injured. Again what would be the reasoning in risking this? Why would i want to in the first place?

I understand what point you are trying to make, but that is suggesting then that if we were to be alert in our daily lives and trying to apply a meditative state to our lives we would suffer some sort of catastrophe and be inviting it? What basis do you have to believe this? How is awareness of the present moment going to be damaging - surely it is ego and mind that are the cause of madness so how am i going to go mad or suffer (which is what i gather you are implying, i apologise if this is not so) if i am maintaining a constant vigil on how my mind is working and what effects it is having upon me.

I would not have done the things you mentioned owing to them not having any point to them - why drive in traffic, why start a fight? There is no logical reason behind it and a danger of doing oneself harm.
There is total reason to try and maintain complete awareness in daily life - enlightenment, a happy life, seperation from attachment to the ego etc. with as far as i can see no danger.

what would be the point in meditation methods? They cannot give me a more 'real' reality can they? All in fact they are going to do is create a barrier preventing me from accessing reality directly "Oh no, somebodys talking loudly! thats not right for meditation!" the mind of the method based meditator screams out and *poof* there goes your awareness- wave goodbye to it and go buy some more incense sticks so you can try and temporarily grab it again...
if I never got used to being in a certain condition in order to experience awareness then there will obviously not be this voice in my mind will there? If I am maintaining a state of awareness DESPITE my conditions and circumstance rather than owing to them surely this is going to be the only way to ensuring that a state of awareness is always present.

If something is conditional it has no inherent existance - as long as a conditional meditative process is needed to access awareness, it means your awareness will always be conditional and will never be permanent, by trying to get to enlightenment you will build a barrier between reality and you without even knowing that you are doing it.

has anybody got a good reason why methods should be used in meditation yet?

[FngSaiYuk]

As I mentioned earlier... meditation is a form of excercise for your neural system. All the chants, visualization, focused thought, etc. are methods of excercising and training your neural system.

I bring this up not because I don't believe in the spiritual/enlightened process and state, but rather because you are asking very practical questions on meditation. The practical answer is that you meditate to improve your performance by entraining and excercising your neural system.

HOW does it all work? Well, there hasn't been throrough enough studies for a scientific answer.

[Cranestyle]

enlightenment would be the Ultimate enhancement of your neural system and the only way to attain enlightenment would be through learning to develope an UNCONDITIONAL awareness that is present always. Therefore conditional meditations will always have a 'glass ceiling' to them in terms of progress and sooner or later will have to be abandoned for the unconditional awareness method. Therefore again i ask what is the point. Why not start with, and only use the method of keeping your awareness of the present moment.

whatever method you decide to use sooner or later you are going to have to give up your attachment to that method as well otherwise you are going to be believing that you are progressing when in fact your attachment to using one method or the other will keep you stagnant in terms of progression.

[SPJ]

Good points.

Let me use an analogy to chess play.

Do you think about all the senarios several moves ahead before you make your move?

How do you condition yourself to a knee jerk or fast chess thoughts and playing?

Still meditation is necessary to clear the mind and your heart from daily events or dusts.

We feel tired, anger, frustration, upset, disturbed etc.

Do we need time to sort things out or our feelings out by quieting our mind and heart first?

We take shower. We rest and feed. We work out. To keep our body clean, and fit.

What to do with our mind? No need for cleaning?

Can you play chess while feeling angry, listening the radio, reading the papers, talking on the cell phones all at the same time?

Do you need a time out to self examine your life or daily events?

What do people say or think in their prayers?

What do you do when you meditate?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Properly trained, one's meditative state becomes one's life.. it permits a natural or instinctive awareness that bypasses the mental "storage and retrieval" system.. if there is a barrier as someone suggests, it is self-imposed..


what would be the point in meditation methods? They cannot give me a more 'real' reality can they? All in fact they are going to do is create a barrier preventing me from accessing reality directly "Oh no, somebodys talking loudly! thats not right for meditation!" the mind of the method based meditator screams out and *poof* there goes your awareness- wave goodbye to it and go buy some more incense sticks so you can try and temporarily grab it again...
Actually, meditation CAN give you a clearer view of "reality".. it can help us acknowledge and bypass the deceptive prejudices which taint our experiences... suppose you are sitting outside and notice a fly approaching on a potential collision course with your eye.. you can either relax and let your natural reflexes blink when appropriate, or.. you can set about the task of analyzing and calculating direction, velocity and probability.. Meditation reacquaints us with our natural processes.. unless we get lost in the rituals..

The description of special meditative conditions (ie: quiet, incense, etc...) is a description of training for full-time meditation.. as was mentioned, before you jump into full-contact fighting you train, before you drive in heavy traffic you take less traveled routes.. and, so it is with meditation, before you can live it, you practice it..

Be well...

[FngSaiYuk]

Let's put it another way... Why learn how to crawl before learning how to run?

Why is it that EVERY system of meditation have progressive steps to their goals?

Stillness meditation is a fundamental step towards the more advanced meditative forms.

Another way of putting it is, why learn forms when what really matters are the basic movements and their application? For some systems the forms are the basis of entraining the movements.

[Cranestyle]

"before you can live it, you practice it.."


Why not live it and practice it at the same time? Why seperate it in the first place from our daily lives and create this dualistic approach? I do not see the sense in this approach other than to delay progress - I believe meditation can give me a clearer view of reality in comparison to a non meditative mind - but it will give me the SAME clarity as if i adopted the 'living it 24/7' approach except it would be impermanent and conditional and therefore weak and easily disturbed. At some point i would have to go on to the formless method anyway, so why not start there? why introduce the method and why introduce conditions to get attached to? and yes of course attachment to conditions in order to keep an awareness would be self imposed. Every attachment is.
we may well have been practicing for 1000 lifetimes already. Its time for the proper go.

Again let me clarify i understand the benefits of awareness of the body and learning to use the bodies natural instincts. I understand the benefits of cultivating the meditative mindset.
I do not understand why method is utilised in the first place and why we should need method in meditation at all if we have the oppurtunity to 'live it'.
Again why do we have to practice it first if we are given the oppurtunity to be living it?

In response to SPJ - Anger, tiredness, frustration are all caused by attatchment to both the physical body and the ego/ personality of the person, therefore if awareness of this is maintained in ones life then how are you going to get angry tired or frustrated?
What is getting angry (ego) tired (ego) frustratred (ego)
the ego is made up of attachments to certain events in your life that have been imprinted on your memory and their affect on you and you respond in a way to try and either repeat these events or prevent them depending on how they affected you. responding compulsively without introspection and speration from the ego would be living in the ego's shadows of the past and the future and taking you away from the present, therefore if you are feeling tired angry or frustrated it is BECAUSE of the fact that you are not 'living it' but are instead comparing your present to the past or impressions of the future. If you were 'living' it these feelings would not apply would they so this would completely invalidate any need for meditation.

There is no need for cleaning the mind because it doesn't actually have an inherent existence - it is made out of dirt from your past and dirt from what your egos impression of the future. When you realise this why bother cleaning it? It was never really there, it was all dirt to begin with. Why not just distance yourself from attachments to it. Let it be dirty, but realise its inherent nature and you can't be ruled by it - it becomes like a shadow instead of a tyrant. How can something that has no true existence rule you?

Still not getting any reasons to do methodical meditations when you can take the 'direct' approach and actively live it instead....

Thanks for the replies btw

[Cranestyle]

in that analogy about forms - I see that very differently

meditations based on methods can be seen as being compared to chopping up a form and taking moves induvidually with no fluidity. You have some awareness which is always being disrupted, you are not constantly aware but are switching on and off light a switch, your awareness is conditional. hit-stop-hit-stop-hit-hit

attempting to be in a constant state of awareness is going to be much more like a form isnt it? because it is a constant stream- it is like your life is a form. its not conditional so it would be ever present - much more like a form yes?

[Cranestyle]

why stay crawling when running is available

[FngSaiYuk]

Perhaps it is because the vast majority of adults are not capable of 'running', do not understand 'running' and so must be taught 'crawling' first.

If you are gifted to be one of the few that naturally tend towards this continual meditative state, then good for you. Now can you perhaps teach this to the rest of us effectively?

[SPJ]

Excellent points.

In Chan Buddhism, there is a same argument about meditation per se.

One school focused too much on the meditation "form" per se.

The other school said you do not need to do it. You know what you know. That is it.

I tend to think we need both.

There is time not to think and just live.

There is also time to think how and why to live.

The Christians live 6 days a week and say prayer at least 4 times a day. Graces before meals and sleep.

The Christians dedicate the 7th day of rest to Church activity.

Ultimately, when we live enough. All there is just thoughts. We need to file or organize them like a computer. There is spreadsheet, flow charts, text and image files etc.

Not only cleaning/delete but also organizing/filing are necessary.

Let us use a real life example;

The GI in Iraq, the oil prices go up, the federal budget historical high and ballooning, the unemployment rate high, all manufactures move to China, terrorist global attack--

Can we win?

No. Anti-terrorism, we need to employ more people to spy, border guards, security checks. They only increase expenses. There is no profit. You do not need to build a bigger ship or missles. It stifles business. It increases the cost of business.

There is no land to conquer. There is no resources to win and plunder. Where is the winning? More cops, more spys, more GI's. Fewer people to contribute to economic.

Can you solve all these by hmmm one stroke of thought?

Or do you really need time to meditate or think about it?

Or can you just live it to live it, no memory of the past and no thinking about the future?

Life is a journey on the sea.

We need a guide, maps, and a compass. We need a destination in the future. We then determine what to do now and today.

Or we just drift by the wind and the current.

Or we just sail one day at a time and not thinking about the course at all.


:)

[Cranestyle]

so you want me to give you a method to practice?

arg

[Cranestyle]

thanks for these replies.

although i can see where you are coming from with the ideas about us both having time to live and time to think about how to live i think that if you were attempting to intergrate full awareness into your life you will not need to think about how and why to live.
If you are aware of the cause and effect nature of this world then you know that taking part in any negative action including negative thought, speach emotions such as anger etc. will lead to that same negativity being reflected onto you in some way, maybe through the attachments in your mind to the memory of the act - your attachments to these actions cause guilt, sorrow etc. If you are constantly aware of this principle then how could you choose to react in a way that is ultimately harmful to yourself?

If you are constantly aware of the idea that your ego is made of attatchments to past impressions, and attachments to predictions based on these impressions and that these attatchments are what are stopping you from experiencing life directly (through enlightenment) and clouding your judgement then how could you possibly act in a way that would strengthen these attachments?

as for why to live - as said before (not by me) why does there have to be a point to life but more importantly who is asking and do they have an inherent reality, if they don't then why would there be a point in knowing? Answer - your ego is asking, no it doesn't have an inherent unconditional reality it is a construct of attachments, and no there is no point in knowing because there is no you to know anything.

I maintain that methodical meditations are not necessary, and can prove a hinderance with some people with them being unconcious of it. What is needed is an effort to awareness and an Unconditional form of meditation that is ever present and has no method to it.

[emre]

Originally posted by Cranestyle


I understand what point you are trying to make, but that is suggesting then that if we were to be alert in our daily lives and trying to apply a meditative state to our lives we would suffer some sort of catastrophe and be inviting it?

Catastrophe? That wasn't the point of my example.

In MA you learn simple moves before you can learn complex ones, same for most activities really.

Emptying the mind is not an easy thing to do. Learning to feel inside your body is not an easy thing to do. It's common sense to reduce the number of variables to avoid confusion in the beginning.

Here's another set of questions for you:

Why have Buddhists and Taoists shown so much interest in martial arts training as a component of their self-cultivation efforts? If the point is to exercise, why not just exercise, why martial arts? Just to protect themselves? If so, why do they see MA as a method of self-cultivation?

Anyway, I can see arguing with you will be a dead end since you seem pretty set in your opininons. What do I care, good luck trying to run before you can walk. Let us know if your approach brings any results.

[Cranestyle]

"Emptying the mind is not an easy thing to do. Learning to feel inside your body is not an easy thing to do. It's common sense to reduce the number of variables to avoid confusion in the beginning."

What i am saying is that i am not trying to empty it, I am trying to keep an awareness of it and how its processess are or are attempting to influence me, trying to empty it is giving it an existence and importance that it does not truly possess. If I am fighting against mind i am never going to win because the attatchments are still going to be there aren't they? if i am fighting it i still obviously have an attatchment to it which would suggest that it possesses an inherent existence and therefore importance. If you need to reduce variables to acheive something, again it is impermanent, conditional and therefore will never lead to enlightenment.

through this and the understanding of the nature of mind of being created by attachments and not having an unconditional existence of its own it possesses no importance- mind starts to slow down and clear up of its own accord. With the understanding that it doesnt inherently exist it looses momentum rapidly.

In answer to your question - buddhists and taoists have combined self defence, exercise and a very good way of realising how important awareness, concentration the internal processess of the body are. I don't see how this contradicts any point i made earlier.. I can still do martial arts and be aware of the present moment, why does that awareness have to stop when the martial arts stop? Why not have it all the time?

I am not at all set in my opinions! my whole philosophy is that being set in your opinions is almost the opposite of alertness - if you can give me a good reason why methodical meditations should be practiced I will start chanting mantras and doing lotus positions all day. As this debate stands i don't believe that a good argument for methodical meditations has been presented if one is trying to practice alertness at all times any way.

as far as i can make out it still stands that the methodical meditations eventually will require you to jump to the non-methodical unconditional form of meditation after a certain point. And therefore do not serve any purpose other than a "seekers placebo" where a temporary awareness is gained which has no foundation to it owing to the fact that it is conditional. The awareness created is as false as the ego unless it stays with you permanently. Unless it is an integral uncoditional part of you, it is not worth devoting the energy into building it up. Why not just concentrate on the present moment?

The idea about applying complete awareness to your everyday life being 'difficult' in comparison to methodical meditation is not correct, difficulty is comparative - it is created by your ego comparing one task to the other, in the idea that your ego does not inherently exist and holds no power over your actions, difficulty would not either. So if the ego was understood for what it was then surely this would negate the difficulty argument as all difficulties would dissapear again owing to the fact that they have no base to them.. just another shadow from an construction of attachments that bears no reflection of the present moment.

I have been running for a year, the experience of it is a result in itself, maybe one day i will get to the finish.

[emre]

Originally posted by Cranestyle

In answer to your question - buddhists and taoists have combined self defence, exercise and a very good way of realising how important awareness, concentration the internal processess of the body are. I don't see how this contradicts any point i made earlier.. I can still do martial arts and be aware of the present moment, why does that awareness have to stop when the martial arts stop? Why not have it all the time?



Who told you to stop? Did someone tell you you shouldn't have awareness at all times?

What people are trying to tell you, is that words are cheap. You talk about awareness but you don't even understand what you're talking about. You can't develop awareness in your daily life, or in martial arts, before practicing emptying your mind in sitting practice first.

But who am I to tell you, you're smarter than generations of masters who wasted their time sitting. Let us know when you develop the ability to feel your internal organs without a day of sitting work.

[Cranestyle]

maybe there isnt a finish

[FngSaiYuk]

Cranestyle,

If' you've discovered some new way of reaping the benefits of years of the 'basic' meditative methods, without having to go through all that, please, don't keep the rest of the world in the dark! Share the information!

I'm sure there are masters and practitioners out there who have practiced the various methods of meditation for decades and would be quite interested in this new discovery!

ESPECIALLY if you can teach it effectively to others...

[SPJ]

Actually, what CS described is correct.

However, it is the end stage.

We need to study and cultivate dharma.

We need dhyana (meditate) to diminish hindrances.

We need to recognise non self.

If all of these happen, yes.

dharma, dhyana are out of the door.

If a monk uses a boat or vehicle (dhyana) to cross the river of life, he or she is on the other shore. He or she no longer needs to carry the vehicle on the shoulder. He or she is there already.

And yes. If we do not believe or recognise that there is a river, we do not need a vehicle (dhyana). By all means, swim and do not drown.

Peace.

[FngSaiYuk]

I agree that it's a more advanced state, it just seems to me that CS is claiming that forgoing the traditional basic methods as stepping stones is better.

[Cranestyle]

"What people are trying to tell you, is that words are cheap. You talk about awareness but you don't even understand what you're talking about"

Words are cheap when they are based on nothing, if words have truth and action behind them how are they cheap? i am not a trained buddhist, i am not a taoist but if i follow the philosophy that i have outlined then what basis do you have for denouncing my words as cheap? because they present a philosophy that is different from yours? because i am trying to understand why dogma is followed when it will eventually have to be thrown out? Because i am questioning Dogmatic conditional methods and that offends you because of your own attatchments to the methods that you follow? Surely you can see how that would hinder your own progress. Maybe they are cheap because i have come to a conclusion on my own rather than being told it by a master or following a particular system..? please tell.

You are right, i don't understand awareness, how can anyone understand it? Who is doing the understanding? Why do i need to verbalise my experience of awareness in my mind and therefore reduce it to another filtered-by-ego experience rather than being aware and experiencing it directly?

"But who am I to tell you, you're smarter than generations of masters who wasted their time sitting. Let us know when you develop the ability to feel your internal organs without a day of sitting work."

Well as stated before, i see meditation as a means of attaining enlightenment - a complete UNCONDITIONAL awareness. Everything else experienced in meditation to me is a byproduct. By setting up the idea in my mind that i need to 'feel' my spleen (or other organs) in order to live in complete awareness in the present moment then surely that is my ego setting up another condition or attatchment that will just need to be fulfilled in order to be where i want to be spiritually, surely the more of these conditions are removed the closer one gets to enlightenment? The more conditions that need to be fulfilled for awareness - the more conditional your awareness is and therefore less stable and more likely to be disrupted. i do not believe that i need to feel my organs to become enlightened, but how do you know that this will not become available to me if enlightenment is reached?

You are incorrect by assuming that i am dismissing the acheivements of masters who have been using sitting meditation. I am simply presenting an argument that we should cut out the 'middle man' of methodical meditation and jump into the darkness of no mind without looking back or even looking forwards. I think that meditation based on methods can be cut out.
rather than stepping on the stepping stones and jumping in to the river after realisation that it has to happen sooner or later - jump into the river as soon as you get to the water and let the current take you to the other shore.... Where else are you going to go? let the rest of them walk circles on stepping stones without realising that they are going to have to jump in at some point. How many lives more will you live like this until you take the plunge?

How many more seconds....?



*Splash*
How

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Cranestyle
I am simply presenting an argument that we should cut out the 'middle man' of methodical meditation and jump into the darkness of no mind without looking back or even looking forwards. I think that meditation based on methods can be cut out.
rather than stepping on the stepping stones and jumping in to the river after realisation that it has to happen sooner or later - jump into the river as soon as you get to the water and let the current take you to the other shore.... Where else are you going to go? let the rest of them walk circles on stepping stones without realising that they are going to have to jump in at some point. How many lives more will you live like this until you take the plunge?

How many more seconds....?


So, ummm... I still don't know how to do that... you haven't exactly explained to me how I am to do that.

THAT is my argument... For your argument to have any merit, you would need to be able to communicate this effectively to everyone interested, and they would have to be able to 'cut out the middle man' as you say.

So again, tell me exactly how we are supposed to do this? And taking a plunge and *SPLASH* does not communicate anything to me.

[Cranestyle]

hi again! - by training a constant awareness, constant self analysis and introspection through 'watching' your thoughts rather than acting on them impulsively without thought of what their affect is.. after a while as was already stated in a previous post you should actually come to a point when you 'realise' that you have no true personality and that it is all instead made up of attachments to past memories or future predictions. I don't mean that you understand this in the sense of having read it in a book - but i mean understand it in the sense that it actually applies to every thought process/ experience that you have and you believe that it is an undeniable truth of existence through your own introspection analysis and through having drawn your own conclusions through the experience of your own life rather than what a scripture or religion or master has told you.

If it is the case that you truly realise (and actually believe) that you possess no true inherent existence as an ego, then it is idiotic to act in a way that would strengthen the ego, and it is idiotic to follow the whims of the ego - as on introspection there is nothing to follow that actually exists.

Therefore through *constant introspection* we should gain understanding of the conditional impermanent nature of mind, and the idiocy of following it.

if this is TRULY understood, adopted and embodied as a philosophy this should lead to mind loosing all importance and significance.

If something is lacking an inherent existence or significance where is the sense in being attached to it and following it? There is not one.

If something is lacking existence, significance and you have no attachment to it, then what is to prevent you from transcending it or even ignoring it completely? nothing.

so the mind does not get 'cleaned' but its not part of you and bears no influence, if your level of introspection and analysis has developed to the level where you actually believe in its lacking of intrinsic identity.

So therefore the ONLY thing needed to transcend mind is *constant introspection and analysis*
- where is the difficulty in this and where is the need for methodical meditations? -

Watch Your Thoughts 24/7, that is what i mean by jumping in the river. because suddenly you are aware of the constant flow of thoughts and at the beginning it can feel like you are drowning in thoughts, or desperately trying to keep your head above them. I thought it would be an appropriate metaphor considering you were talking about far shores, boats and stepping stones.

[emre]

All this baseless intellectualising won't help improve your awareness. Theory not rooted in practice and experience is useless, this is not western philosophy.

You talk about ego a lot, you sure have a big one. Train more and theorize less and be honest with yourself rather than making up excuses for avoiding things you find hard to do.

That's all, my involvement in this discussion ends here.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Therefore through *constant introspection* we should gain understanding of the conditional impermanent nature of mind, and the idiocy of following it.
Interesting, how in one instance it is suggested that we use the mind to effect "constant introspection", then.. summarily discarding the same mind as impermanent.. My own experience suggests that the mind is the interface between the temporary physical experience and the eternal spiritual existence.. that the universe seems to have a purpose for linking the spiritual and physical experiences..

Occasionally, the momentum of enlightening realizations carries on past reasonable conclusion..
"So therefore the ONLY thing needed to transcend mind is *constant introspection and analysis*
The suggestion is that you engage the mind through *constant introspection and analysis* in an attempt to transcend the same thing.. you can't make water wetter by adding more water.. What meditators have experienced over thousands of years is that *constant introspection and analysis* clutters the mind with activity and distracts it from the "truth", the "truth" being the experience unfolding before you.. so, meditators devised rituals and strategies to quiet and still the mind, to make it receptive to the unfolding experiences.. Now, i fully understand the dilemma, that after the rituals and strategies have done their work we recognize the utter simplicity of "no mind".. we recognize that it is available at a moments choosing.. but, until we can define what the goal is (ie: meditation or "no-mind", or enlightenment, etc...) we have no direction.. sure, we can hear the words and descriptions of others, but we don't "know" what they mean, we have no point of internal reference (experience).. This is where the ritual and strategies of meditation come into play.. they lead us to an experience, they give us the point of reference.. then, we discard the "training wheels" and transcend *constant introspection and analysis*, we simply become the experience..

There may those fortunate few that have had sudden realizations, quantum leaps of enlightening experiences.. and they have my respect and kudos.. but, i question the depth of enlightenment when they look, disapprovingly, at their brothers and sisters for not haviing the same good fortune.. though i agree that it is a simple matter of choosing your path, one must first have the resources to know what to choose.. and so, we have various experiences, explore various paths until we find the heart path, that path that satisfies our current understanding of the cosmos..

You see, there is no adequate or accurate text or lesson that describes "enlightenment", enlightenment is a realization to be experienced.. once experienced, the observer understands the futility of words and "mind-play".. at best, the experienced can only point others toward similar experiences that worked for them, in hopes that others will attain their own "realization".. it is unwise to disparage the experiences of others in favor your own, that is ego hard at work.. more appropriate is to present the merits of your own experiences, and let it find homes where it is welcome..

Here we are.. having this dialogue, exchanging conceptual theories.. theories developed through "individual and personal experience".. we come into this universe for a time as physical manifestations of spiritual energies.. it is amusing, to me, the efforts some people go to trying to discount the richness and fullness of this "season of Man"... do we discount the "season of Man" as impermanent and lacking value, or.. do we search for whatever value the Universe saw fit in providing this experience?

Be well..

[FngSaiYuk]

CS,

The next time someone asks me for sources on meditation, I'll make sure I include your revelation for them to try out along with the normal set of resources I'd usually give out. If I get any number of people that are able to bypass the usual methods, I'll make sure you hear of it.

As for me, I must not be very good at all this introspection and what not, as I don't get anywhere near the effect I get from the 'traditional methods'. Perhaps over time, but for now I'll stick to the devil I know...

Why don't you let us know if you're able to relay this to others and who are then able to usefully bypass the 'traditional methods' and attain this state of awareness. I just might be too entrained in the 'traditional methods' for it all to mean much more than just thinking about stuff around me and myself.

[Cranestyle]

tai chi bob - the idea is that the introspection leads the mind to realise that it is never going to understand anything completely owing to its nature being conditional, constructed and impermanent - therefore it is never going to understand or become the permanent. When this is truly realised and taken to heart surely the attachment to it will dissolve and this will mean that its (the minds) influence will do the same. i do not see the contradiction in this.
after a stage the insights and introspection are not needed - just like the 'methods' are not needed after a stage with the methodical meditations, what i am saying is why narrow down the time when you are being meditational to have to be reliant on certain conditions, if your mediatation is based on training a state of awareness and attempting to gain insights into the nature of reality what is it that is stopping you having this mindstate all the time..? Why add conditions, i still do not see the point behind it.

Please don't think that I am looking dissapprovingly at others, I am looking at the reasons why people are following certain methods and i am trying to use this forum for a constructive debate in order to test and either strengthen or discard my own philosophy - to see the holes in my own views through others perspectives. If this has been interpreted as an attack on other practitioners acheivements rather than an attack on what i believe are dogmatic and unneccessary processess that are not necessarily needed for spiritual progress then that is unintentional, and i apologise if offense was taken.

There would be no difference between someone who had reached an enlightenment through the method i am describing and someone who had reached it through the more classical meditation methods. I think that both lead to the same destination, but one of the roads although it may seem easier is going to have a barrier at the end requiring you to go to the road of discarding all methods and applying meditation to your life anyway... So I was asking why we shouldnt only take this road? although it may seem less productive and slower at first, surely it is the only one that is going to lead to enlightenment as it is the only one that trains an awareness IRRESPECTIVE OF ANY CONDITIONS.

"All this baseless intellectualising won't help improve your awareness. Theory not rooted in practice and experience is useless, this is not western philosophy.

You talk about ego a lot, you sure have a big one. Train more and theorize less and be honest with yourself rather than making up excuses for avoiding things you find hard to do.

That's all, my involvement in this discussion ends here."

Emre, the whole idea of this theory is that the entire life becomes practice. And that through following it and taking it to heart and truly believeing it there is nothing that seperates being in a meditative state and your every day life. I can be meditative while taking a ****, at a club, and there is absolutely nothing that can dictate to me when i am meditative and when i am not because I don't have the attachments to a certain method or condition in order to access a meditative state.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE AN ATTACHMENT TO A METHOD OR A CONDITION IN ORDER TO ACCESS A STATE OF AWARENESS - THAT STATE IS AVAILABLE AT ALL TIMES.

In response to your puzzling and obviously personal attacks, I train on average a few hours every day, i have just come back from thailand (10 weeks in fairtex muay thai camp) and will always be trying to train more.
Being honest with my self is what i am doing - i am expressing an opinion that is against what a lot of people have believed for a large amount of time. I am arguing this opinion because i believe in it.
Obviously the easy thing would be to say "this is how it is done, and despite the fact that it contradicts my better judgement i will go with it because everybody else does it like this. I should stop arguing because this is the method, everybody says so" but this would NOT BE BEING HONEST WITH MYSELF would it?

I do not find seated meditation 'hard' in comparison to trying to follow this philosophy. keeping your awareness in a lotus position with a candle and incense is not in my experience harder than keeping your awareness on a packed underground train with a fat guys armpit 5 inches from your face after a day of manual labor work. What reasoning would you use to think that this is harder? Do you think you would be able to maintain awareness in this second EVERY DAY situation?

nice how as i am arguing a contradicting veiw to yours - i must be wrong and you have assumed I have a big ego despite the fact that you have not really presented a viable argument why my views should change.

i suppose i should change because it's your point of view and thats how it's always been done, yes?

I like the way also you say 'I am no longer having any part in this discussion' as if that should be important to us, especially with all of the comprehensive, rational arguments you have presented. Comprised of telling me "words are cheap" "you dont know what you are talking about" "this is not western philosophy" and "you sure have a big ego". You are a funny guy!
;)

Fong - thank you for doing that, the more people that try this method the better as it will mean that flaws are exposed and can be fixed or at least looked at. Also if other people disagree and have good arguments please post them to me (or on this board) so that i can test my theories as much as possible.

I would not be arguing this point and i would not write this amount of words to describe or attempt to convey something if I had not had a belief that has come about through positive benefits to my life. I am not arguing from the standpoint of someone who has a theory without practice. I am arguing from the standpoint of someone who is CONSTANTLY practicing and gaining results from it.

Thanks again for the constructive replies and (even) the foundless assumptions of my character!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

"the view from the mountain peak erases the path taken"...

Cranestyle: I agree completely with your assertion that it is available immediately, without the formalities.. but, i assert that people are few and far-between that have the insight to acquire that sudden awareness.. i tend to be gentle in my judgements regarding a person's chosen path.. i only offer advice, not denouncements.. i can't know the factors that lead people to their choices, it may be beyond their "awareness" to control..

One cannot solve a problem of awareness with the same mind that produces the awareness in the first place.. that is why it is suggested to "still the mind", to let experiences impact the spirit directly.. by-pass the mental "filing cabinet" and the analysis process.. without the analysis and mental processes, the experience appears most closely "as it is", not as we reconstruct it with our personal prejudices..

Be well..

[Scott R. Brown]

Hello Friends,

After carefully reading the posts on this thread I have to say that Cranestyle is correct in his assertion that meditative methods are not required for realization. However, the others are correct in that meditative methods are a tool that many use as rungs on a ladder in order to develop the mental ability to perceive without obstruction, that is to attain realization. Any attachment we have to the “forms” of meditation must eventually be transcended.

Most here who have presumed to educate Cranestyle seem to have an attachment themselves to their understanding of the benefits of meditation. Yes meditation can be beneficial, and yes it can be a hindrance; you are all correct according a specific perspective.

Attachments must be transcended; however anything in life can be an attachment. I have found that it is often easier to overcome a bad habit (attachment) by replacing it with a habit that is not quite as bad, LOL!!! For example when I was younger I used to bite my finger nails. Not bad for the fingernails as it is quite efficient actually, but it is not good for the teeth and an expression of nervousness, so I replaced the biting of my finger nails with chewing on swizzle sticks. As with the swizzle sticks, meditation is meant to be a step in a process and not the end in itself. While it does not need to be discarded if the practitioner finds the activity enjoyable, the attachment to the forms must be transcended for optimum benefit to be achieved.

Zen literature is rife with examples of future masters who would not follow the rules of meditation. The stories relate they were often criticized by foolish practitioners with attachments to the form, but the master would commonly allow the behavior, since being a master, he understood what was actually transpiring. These are examples of those who meditated, but were unhindered by attachment to the forms.

It is important to remember that it is possible to have an attachment to the idea of non-attachment as well. The behaviors that one displays demonstrating non-attachment may just as easily be an affectation or expression of ego designed to demonstrate ones superiority over others or simply a basic lack of respect which are in and of themselves expressions of attachment as well.

So, why should one meditate? Because they find some benefit in the activity. Meditation produces other benefits not associated with attaining realization. It is one method of releasing stress; it focuses the mind, allowing for better concentration, it provides an opportunity for introspection, which assists with problem solving. The mind improves its performance with exercise just like the muscles do and meditation is a mental exercise, its purpose is not to develop the nervous system, but to enhance mental activity.

Is mediation necessary to attain realization? Well, not really. However, realization is a phenomenon of the mind and meditation enhances mental function and abilities. Can one become attached to the forms of meditative practice? Sure, but so can one become attached to anything else in life. It is not the attachments to meditative practices we must transcend, but attachments of any kind. Meditative practices do not predispose one to attachments any more than anything else in life, and may in fact assist the individual in discovering and resolving attachments, since meditation is a mental function and so are attachments. One way to release ourselves from attachments is to discover they are there, and to do discover them we must find them, and to find them we must look for them, and to look for them we must look where they are located, and since they are located in the mind that is where we should look.

Meditation allows us to develop and practice, in a controlled environment, states of perception we hope to eventually carry with us into our everyday life. For most it is easier to develop this mental ability through consistent, measured practice and away from worldly distraction. Since most humans are social by nature many find it more enjoyable and easier to be consistent when they practice in a group.

People meditate because they find benefit from the activity. I have yet to discover in literature any example of a realized person who did not engage in some form of meditative practice.

It seems that Cranestyle is most concerned about the attachments one may acquire through meditative exercise; however it is important to always remember that we may become attached to anything. Meditation is not the bad guy here, but the mind. (I am speaking metaphorically here.)

Attachment is a function of the mind and not a consequence of the activity one practices!!

[qiphlow]

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