How do you use triangles in your wing chun system?

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

How do you use triangles in your wing chun system? Here is a demo: by Nelson Marcelino. Dealing with triangles, body structure and chum (sinking energy). All together with biomechanics, on the last video downloads, in the video department of my web site.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Miles Teg]

One way that can we demonstrate the power of triangles is by getting someone to put their arms out and form a triangle with the arms and the fingers touching pointing towards a partner. The partner puts a fok sau on the outside of each arm. So basically the guy forming the triangle has his arms in the middle and the other guy has his hands on the outside. Then we try and push eachother back. The guy who is making the triangle has an advantage and can easily push the oponent back.

This is a demonstration of the triangle in the most simplistic way. This is the same way a nail or wedge works. The shape of it focuses to a sharp point which is put in a crack. you then hit it with a hammar and it drives further in the crack dispersing the mass of the object to each side. Much the same way a ship cuts through water.

[old jong]

Ali.
Very good demonstration!...I like the triangle system because I was taught the same way and I teach it also.It makes things easy to understand and make effective.
The only difference I spot was that my fist are not held so high.They point to the tip of the triangle (elbow line) or simply are held where the tan sau begins in SLT.The elbows are low as you prescribe and the rest seems to be identical.
Thanks for sharing!...

[Matrix]

Rahim,

Very interesting stuff. Especially due to the huge difference in size between you and your student. We have some slight differences, similar to what Old Jong mentioned. I'm going to play around with it and see for myself.

Thank you for putting the clips together.

P.S. your niece Maya has one mean lap sao. :)

[Matrix]

So, now we have a solid YGKYM, but that is a training stance. How do you take these principles and transfer them to a more dynamic application? We do not fight from YGKYM. We need to move, bridge the gap, get inside. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Thanks,

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Like I said early; you always ask the right question. I will let Nelson answer that for you with new video clips coming up this week. And I thank you very much, Matrix.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Matrix]

Thank you very much. I am only returning what I am being given.

[sihing]

First, good clips Ali, I always appreciate video's of WC practitioners performing and explaining there respective technique's. It seems like you are putting together a series of instructional tapes, the best of luck to you if that is the case.

I did have one observation though. It seems to me that you are directly comparing your system of WC to that of the TWC system, to which I used to be a part of (We left Cheung's association back in the mid 90'). What we teach today is similar to that system but not the same as there have been some adaptations to the technique's from my Sifu's experiences. The demo of the parallel foot YGKYM stance weakness is also something I at times elaborate on in the class when we teach. There are two reasons why we would never attack from such a stance, the first one you demonstrated is the off balancing effect that would occur once a strike is thrown, although I do believe that when the stance is performed correctly it is not as unstable as demonstrated. The second reason is when one is punching another standing in the YGKYM directly in front of them the groin becomes an easy target. Attacks, such as the WC chain punch, etc.., must be performed from the forward stance, with the lead Wu Sao in line with the inner part of the knee facing directly down the opponents center. This way the knee will protect the groin and any energy coming back from the punch or strike will not off balance the practitioner. It's nice to be rooted and such but I would prefer to be sunken in my stance so that I am stable but still capable of quick movements in any and all directions.


James

[Nador]

Ok a stupid question how is your website build, I can't get in to watch the videoclip?

I don't have a working IE, and it seems impossible to make it work, I'm currently using Opera and firefox (modzilla) browsers.

[Tydive]

http://detroitwingchun.com/video%20frames%20page.htm

edit: btw those are some really cool vids there Ali.

[russellsherry]

hi ali, i really, liked your chi sau , it very direct and practacal and your dummy, looked good as well peace russellsherry

[Gangsterfist]

I can't view your webpage, perhaps its not firefox friendly?

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
I can't view your webpage, perhaps its not firefox friendly?

Like a MA, a website should be tested in all the known browsers for compatability.;)

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Like a MA, a website should be tested in all the known browsers for compatability.;)

Hehe, but I am biased and will only use firefox! :cool:

[AmanuJRY]

A friend of mine will only use Firefox as well. That's my point though, the website should be tested to operate in Firefox as well as IE, Netscape, Opera, etc. and should be tested on a Mac as well as PC. But that's for the professionals, I guess.:rolleyes:

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

The website as been tested and I use fire fox as well. What ever is going on, as nothing to do with my website.

Ali Hamad Rahim.


detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Nelson and myself are coming out with new DVDs on that subject that you can’t download. I will be happy too give you free copies of that sires of information. You only, gangsterfist, just send me the right info so I can send them to you. Take care.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
The website as been tested and I use fire fox as well. What ever is going on, as nothing to do with my website.

As a matter of note, I would change the music on your intro page to an .MP3 file instead of a .wav as it will cut the load time dramatically (being one who still operates with a dial up connection, load time is important to me).;)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Why don’t you just upgrade your pc. The music stays, my pc is on the cutting edge of technology. Just go find someone else, I’m not the one. I do agree I’M NOT A PRO WHEN IT COMES TO A WEBSITE, IF THE MUSIC IS SLOW, THEN YOU CATCH UP. I made a post that the music may be slow some people, so I already knew that anyway, so thanks for nothing. this is my first website. By the way I really enjoy your website. I make it a policy not to ask for help as much as I can, I believe if you can read, you can do anything, unless you are lazy. I won’t take a step back for no one but my students. Many people say that I’m the most humble and loving person that they ever seen. my students remind me of this almost everyday, and my wife says that I am to kind hearted and that I must slow down,That it will only hurt me in the long run. But I truly believe that god will take care of that. It is just my nature too be that way. Take care.

“But only those who hate hate those who strive for perfection”.
My Father.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
Why don’t you just upgrade your pc. The music stays, my pc is on the cutting edge of technology. Just go find someone else, I’m not the one. I do agree I’M NOT A PRO WHEN IT COMES TO A WEBSITE, IF THE MUSIC IS SLOW, THEN YOU CATCH UP. I made a post that the music may be slow some people, so I already knew that anyway, so thanks for nothing. this is my first website. By the way I really enjoy your website. I make it a policy not to ask for help as much as I can, I believe if you can read, you can do anything, unless you are lazy. I won’t take a step back for no one but my students. Many people say that I’m the most humble and loving person that they ever seen. my students remind me of this almost everyday, and my wife says that I am to kind hearted and that I must slow down,That it will only hurt me in the long run. But I truly believe that god will take care of that. It is just my nature too be that way. Take care.

Dude, you need to chill out. By the reflexive nature of you reply to my comment, you have some serious pent up tention you need to let go of.

First, it has nothing to do with the speed of my PC, my PC is blazingly fast (made it myself:D ), it has to do with the speed of my internet connection, which to improve would cost me more than any training I recieve (I would rather spend the $$ on training) because broadband only comes in the form of satellite connection in the remote country that I live in.

Second, if this is your first web-site, good for you. Why are you unwilling to take some friendly advice regarding it? I am not out to 'destructivly' criticize your work. It takes less than one minute to convert a .wav file to a .mp3 file with converters that are available for free. Heck, send me the file and I will convert it for you. I'm no expert either, but I have some understanding of web sites and the internet and was just offering a friendly suggestion. You don't need to treat it as though I attacked your honor, because I didn't.

Third, as to your charachter, I reserve all judgment until I know you. You can state what your wife says, what your friends say, etc., but ultimatly it is what I think of you that concerns me. If you are so kind hearted, then you should realize that my suggestion was a peacful offering and not a slanderous insult.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

That made me feel good all over, knowing I said nothing wrong. What you can’t do, is not my fought.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com.)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

By the way, I never paid a dime for training.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
That made me feel good all over, knowing I said nothing wrong. What you can’t do, is not my fought.

Your right, what I'm not capable of is not your fault. If you want your website to be accessed by a limited number of viewers it's your perogative. I have a friend who feels the same way about his web site, no remorse for us limited to a dial up. I often have to miss out on a lot of the video referances posted on the forum, again, my problem.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
By the way, I never paid a dime for training.

Maybe not money, but you paid or owe something. It's what the Samuri called Giri (duty/obligation). If you don't or didn't, you're not an honorable man.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I believe that’s true, but I haven’t figured it out, far as duties that is. My sifu tells everyone that I am his grandson. And I did spend more time with him then my own family (mother and father) you are truly right. Even more now because of his age, he cannot get around like he use too. I take him to the doctor office and shopping, and walks in the park at least three times a week, And I thank you for making me think. I love him so much I did not know
that I was making payments. And I thank you again.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[old jong]

Your'e O.K. Ali!...I'm sure you will get a lot in return for what you give to your Sifu and to us by sharing.

[old jong]

I can't do things like you do with my Sifu because he's younger than I am!...:( This is why I do my best to make him feel old instead!...:D

[Vajramusti]

That is the good human connection Ali. More power to you.
there is karma.

[Gangsterfist]

My sifu always says you learn, you share, you pass on. It is vital to the survival of wing chun. He wants all his students to teach, but then jokes about how once all his students teach he will not have any more students. We have not had any new students for a while. A lot of the new comers are 1 month into it then quit. Kung fu is not for everyone I suppose, and I definately won't try to force anyone to do it.

However, even though I am not certified to teach I am coming along into the wing chun system and am at the point where I could probably comfortably teach a brand new student, however that will take away time from my cross training. I plan on learning six elbows kung fu this next spring. I am waiting till I reach a certain point in my training before I start seriously cross training from wing chun into something else. My sifu wants all his students to teach on the side. He says that you only learn part of the system from him, and the other part from teaching others. More than likely I will cross train, because a lot of my brothers are already cross training in that system and its a lot of hard work (they do military style work outs) and I really want to get into tip top shape (i had one of those get out of shape, party a lot, eat horrible college escapade - I am sure all of you know about those :) )

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
We have not had any new students for a while. A lot of the new comers are 1 month into it then quit. Kung fu is not for everyone I suppose, and I definately won't try to force anyone to do it. This is what I meant when I used the quote " Wing Chun is not good looking, it is good using." Everybody wants to Jackie Chan or Jet Li. It takes a keen eye to see beyond the populist hype and see the beauty in the art.

[sihing]

Gangsterfist,
You will improve ten fold when you start teaching. It's amazing what happens to your own technique and skill when you start to give it away. With beginners it's all about reinforcement of the basics, then you teach advanced pupils and it teaches you how to quickly analyze someone's structure, subtleties and strengths/weaknesses in fractions of a second. It makes you sharp and fine tunes everything about your own WC. Plus it is really fulfilling to teach others, almost like a form of meditation. You are totally into what the students are doing and how they are doing it that you forget everything happening good and bad in your life and focus on another human being. I really enjoy this aspect more now than training for myself.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Your best teacher is your student.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Miles Teg]

Oh sh!t how rude of me.

I only read the title of your thread "How do you do use trinagles" so I replied. I didnt see the message at the bottom to go to your site. I use the internet at work but Ive got to be quick or Ill get in trouble with the boss. Thats why I must have rushed over your post.


Nice site, I love the music in the background. Also the principles were demonstrated quite nicely.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I thank you all very much.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detriotwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Ali,
If your talking about the old saying that you can learn something from everyone you meet, yes this is true. I would not say that statement is true when one is being specific in their teaching, such as WC. Does the Master Carpenter teacher learn more about carpentry from the brand new, really green student looking to become a carpenter? No, I don't think so, at least not 99% of the time. Same in WC, IMO. Yes the students may see things in a different manner, but that manner may not be correct necessarily. A new student is NOT going to teach me more about the WC system. I have not taught my Sifu more about the WC system.

James

[Matrix]

Originally posted by sihing
A new student is NOT going to teach me more about the WC system. This is true, only because you will not learn from them. Seeing less than there is to see, is not the sole domain of the blind.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
A new student is NOT going to teach me more about the WC system. I have not taught my Sifu more about the WC system.


the new student will assist you in teaching yourself. The reasons why this is so were stated earlier.

[SevenStar]

do any of you use triangles to manipulate balance and execute throws? This is something I haven't seen statedin this thread.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Sihing,

at least not 99% of the time
You've kinda just answered yourself.
People come in from all walks of life with different backgrounds. Some people are more practical than others and will have different views when they try to test the system.

A new student is NOT going to teach me more about the WC system.
If you're talking about doing forms then ya I agree, but if you've never drilled against someone alot stonger, taller, faster, tougher than you then you'll see that they can teach you alot.

Also when talking about teaching methods. How would you teach someone who came in with some sort of handicap?

When you truly know something you should be able to explain it to anyone in it's simplist form.
As you teach (in general, not you specifically) you may at first talk all night to a student to get a point across and then realise that you didn't need to go through all of that and all you had to do was ....(Fill in Here)

At least that's how I see it, but who knows cause I'm just a beginner. :)

J

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
At least that's how I see it, but who knows cause I'm just a beginner. :) Jeff,
For a "beginner" you're pretty sharp. Well said.

[sihing]

Jeff ,
Good points, but in all of your examples the student is still not teaching you anything, rather you are teaching your self to adapt. As for handicaped people, my Sifu has taught me the techniques to use to teach them effective self defense as he has had seminars for them since the 80's, so that aspect was also taught to me by another and from what I understand no one taught him that stuff either. Of course if someone, that is lets say a school teacher, they may be able to show me better ways of communication or demonstrating something to a group of people. There's lots of seniors in the school I belong to and so far none of them have taught me anything new in the WC I practice. About the only time I learn anything really new is when Sifu teaches and starts to ellaborate on the finer points of things, or when one of my seniors teaches a technique or concept in a different way than I, sometimes when that happens it sparks a new angle on something in the art, but I have never seen it happen with a junior yet.

As for triangles in the system, we use them all the time. In stances, footwork, arm structures and combat techniques etc... We could be here all day talking about triangles and how we use them.

James

[Matrix]

Jeff,

You are spitting into the wind brother. ;)

[Jeff Bussey]

Hi Sihing,

but in all of your examples the student is still not teaching you anything, rather you are teaching your self to adapt

When you have to adapt to something, it's cause you never trained it.
When you never trained something and need to adapt, you're learning something new.
The reason you are learning something new is because of the student that you're adapting to.
So the student just taught you how to adapt.

J

[sihing]

Oh not really Jeff, adaption does not mean I am learning something new or I haven't experienced it before. Unless the opponent does nothing to interfere with your attack and the fight is over in 2 seconds, you will have to adapt to whatever they give you. For example, if I throw my straight punch out to him and he blocks it somehow, I will adapt my technique and stop it, or turn it into a trap or lop sao or gum sao, or whatever. If the block was of an upper ward nature then you adapt from there. Been there and done those things a million times, nothing new learned, just adapting to the energy I am receiving. Yes you are correct if you mean that I am listening to my opponent’s energy and learning what to do at that moment, but this is not what we are talking about here on the last few posts of this thread. If you had actually encountered something brand new with a opponent and had to learn a counter to it on the spot, you would be defeated quite easily, just like when you start learning chi-sao on day 1. If your a beginner in WC, the next time your in class do random chi-sao with your schools top student/instructor and see what happens. He's already learned the technique and feel of it all and you haven't, you still have to learn it. If he's any good you shouldn't be able to touch him at all.


James

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey James,
I'll cut your quote more from above

rather you are teaching your self to adapt
I was talking about the adapting that you are 'teaching' yourself or in my eyes are being taught.

J

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here are some new videos of my student Nelson, demonstrating the footwork triangles of the Woo Fai Ching system, complete with biomechanics, on my web site in the video department. See very last downloads.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Interesting clips again, and I like the analytical way of explanation, but when you start comparing your ways and others you start to get into trouble.

The comparison or explanation of the weakness of the TWC T-step again is obvious. Why you do this doesn't make sense when you can't even demonstrate the technique correctly, therefore an explanation of it would be incorrect also. Just to make this simple, when the T-Step is performed, a kick with the lead foot, or lop sao with the corresponding hand technique or a variety of things can be done at the instant contact is made with the opponents limb and when the rear foot of the t-step has landed, not a second later which would allow what your demo showed, the ability of the opponent to knock one over. This is an intermittent stance, one does not stay there for a half second and this is also a very defensive stance and not always used. Again I would recommend that you stick to demonstrating & explaining your own material and discontinue to compare with other systems when you are not versed in that system.


James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

It’s just a demo by my student that’s all, me my self know nothing about a t step I’m just a guy helping a another guy out with his beliefs. By the way I didn’t demo any thing. My student trained in a system that uses the t stance for 5 years. If he wants too talk then I’ll let him, take care.

Ps. the only reason why he stood there explaining his theory. it was a step-by-step demo. You may not have understood that. Next time I will ask him too make it much clearer. Sorry about that.

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[sihing]

Just a add on, I'm not just picking on what I saw on Ali's website. On one of Boztepe's tapes he starts to poke alittle fun a some JKD techniques, and although I respect Boztepe for what he does and his skill and knowledge, I didn't think it was right of him to do that. From what I have personally seen on JKD through video and such, it wasn't a good representation of JKD as compared to his WT.

Ali,
My point in my post was that I don't think it's good to compare "DIRECTLY", like a side by side comparison, on video instruction or literary instruction with another system in MA, because if you do you will have offended people and created enemies against you. Your feud with Phil R was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this last round of videos and the last one's too with the neutral stance comparison. Besides that I enjoyed your demo's on your website, the explainations were clear and anyone looking at them will learn something from them.

James

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Notice that he said, why He prefers the Woo Fai Ching system. He said nothing about me, or phil.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Atleastimnotyou]

every post makes more sense when im drunk... oh so drunk... killian's yay. drinky is good

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Here are some new videos on the Woo Fai Ching System, dealing with the top triangle. By my student Nelson. On my webpage in the video Dept.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Oh yeah Matrix you the man. That’s for that info:

Ali Hamad Rahim

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)