Complex footwork......is it really necessary??

[JiuKaiMan]

Is all the t-stepping, side shuffling, left-side neutral stance, right foreward circluar step...and so forth really necessary.
I have been training WC for a long, long time, and I have noticed that in all the fights I have been in footwork didn't really matter at all.
All of the footwork I used consisted of one simple step towards my attacker and that was usually all I needed.
Realistically when I have gotten into a fight, it has been against some thug who doesn't practice martial arts, so why is it WC seems so geared towards fighting other martial artists or other people with amazing footwork?

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[EmptyCup]

So that you have that much more to choose form. An aresenal from which to select techniques as you see fit. So when you do get into a fight with a more experienced opponent, you can still take care of yourself.

Seriously though, cross touching works well to prevent kicks and pressing stances help you chase the opponent who's retreating. I don't really pay that much attention to footwork though as they are secondary in real fights. You hardly even use the lateral/shift stance at all- mostly the median stance.

[OdderMensch]

while there are many debates over the exact origin of the wing chun system one thing remains clear. Wing chun was devolped in the presence of other sopisicated MA systems. And was designed with the destuction of other people that knew MA in mind.

I once spoke with a pracicioner of "kempo" and when i asked him to show me some he said "its to deadly" i said "What?!?! lemme see." too deadly sheesh. anyway he threw out some attack that i stoped and he said "well see this is not mant to fight other people that know MA. People that know ma should never fight each other."

I walked away thinking "**** thats about polar opposite of WC."

The creator(s) of WC knew that sholin would eventuly be over run by the manchus and that it would take too long to train the rebels that had gathed there proper Shaolin Kung Fu. So they aplied "Ockamn's razor" to the KF they knew and devoloped WC.

It was designed to fight bigger, stronger and longer trained Kung Fu fighters, at least that is the legend that I like.

Im hope i dont sound like Mr. WC_rulz_all_others_drool. Other style have many good points and do things that amaze me. But is was intended for battleing other KF styles.

[EmptyCup]

lol!!! That's the legend that I like too :)

but I think that's stretching it a bit...more like Wing Chun was invented by the Red Boat people...but hey, Shaolin sounds better, no? And the beautiful maiden learning martial arts to defeat the evil suitor and marry her true love. So romantic... :)

That's a good story too.

[OdderMensch]

OK then

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The creator(s) of WC knew that they would eventuly be over run by their enemy and that it would take too long to train the rebels that had gathed there another type of Kung Fu. So they aplied "Ockamn's razor" to the KF they knew and devoloped WC.
[/quote]

Is that better?


but i think it can be agreed that whoever devloped WC kung fu :

a) knew their and
b) were intending to fight people that knew their

[This message was edited by OdderMensch on 07-24-01 at 12:34 AM.]

[jesper]

How do you suppose to take down other MA's without proper footwork.
I use a lot of footwork in my cross sparring, since its pretty hard to get into contact and aligning yourself proper without it, if your opponent is any good.
Also if you meet a good grappler you will be pretty FU if you dont have proper footwork.
Belive me, I crosstrain with 2 guys. One is a Judoka/karate expert and the other is a Greek wrestler/sumo Wrestler.
They both have 3 things in common
They are big (130-150 kg)
very good technicians
love to rush you and grapple you to the floor.

Now when they come rushing in, you will properply get a few good punches in, but it doesnt matter if you stay put as there momentum will bring them into contact and you will be grounded. And just for the record, having a 130 kg guy jumping up and down on your rips while laying on the floor is no fun. Trust me on this :)

[EmptyCup]

I think we can agree...WE ARE THE SH!T :) LOL!!!!
YEA!!!!

[whippinghand]

So, in Wing Chun, weapons are secondary, footwork is secondary. Anything else? What then is "primary" in Wing Chun?

[EmptyCup]

the hands

[whippinghand]

You think so, ehhh?

I'll pose this question again: What makes Wing Chun a traditional art?

[EmptyCup]

Because it was allegedly created 800 years ago?


... :)

[TjD]

how can one punch properly if one cant stand up properly?

how can your punch have any power if you cant move properly

IMO your stance/footwork is more important than your hands

if you cant stand up, you definately cant fight

peace
trav

if you never get into a fight,
you can never be defeated,
if you can never be defeated,
you are invincible

[whippinghand]

As my si hing put is so well.... unless he heard it from somewhere.

No feet; no hands.

[JiuKaiMan]

TjD,
That's taking things alittle too far.
I mean, I don't know about you, but I knew how to stand before I took Wing Chun.
Wing Chun taught me the hand skill necessary for a fight and taught me alot of complex footwork which I have never used in a fight.

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[TjD]

so your telling me you dont use your stance when you punch? you dont use waist rotation?

id say most of the power in a punch, or any motion you do in wing chun comes from two things, your stance, and doing siu lim tau correctly

how do you step in when your throwing a punch? do you just walk in? i know when i use a biu jee or chum kiu step when i throw a punch its a helluva lot better than just a normal punch

i definately dont think thats taking it a bit too far


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[dzu]

I'm sorry but standing is not the same as using your horse. If you don't have a good horse and cannot root to receive and transmit power then you are wasting your time. Your power is all due to localized muscle in the shoulders and arms. This will fade as you get older and will be worthless if you face someone bigger and stronger.

If you can't stand you can't step. If you can't step you can't close the distance to use the hands. It's a fundamental principle in all fighting systems.

I wouldn't consider WC footwork complex at all. Each step has a proper time and place when it should be applied. If you use a step inappropriately, then it is inefficient, but not necessarily complex.

regards,

Dzu

[TjD]

i guess mabye they thought anyone who was a real threat would know some kind of martial art - and then youd need the footwork

i if the art didnt have these steps - itd be pretty useless against someone who knew what they are doing; and what would be the point in training it?

i think the steps are invaluable because you never know WHO youll be fighting :)

i guess it comes down to the questions: why do you train? if you train to fight a random chump off the street who knows nothing about fighting - sure you may never use them... but if your training to be the best martial artist you can possibly be; sure as hell youll need it

i dont think the founders of the system were doing this half-assed, they were trying to be the best; they wanted it to be the best system out there - and thats why you have the steps, because they are needed for combat; especially against a skilled opponent


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[JiuKaiMan]

TjD,
I guess you misunderstood my original post.
I was never talking about simple hip rotation or the basic stance. I was talking about complex footwork.

<img src = "http://www.wingchunkuen.com/community/clipart/chinese/wingchun_old.gif">

[TjD]

haha yea i reread your original post, and then posted that last one :)


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[weakstudent]

a forward step , huh sounds good when facing your average thug , but what happens when you have two or three thugs, its my guess that you would need good footwork as well as hand techniques to come out with miminal damage to yourself. never underestemate your art or the skills youare learning.

[EmptyCup]

Seriously, anybody who can even pull off any decent hand techniques should be given a pat on the back, let alone corrrect footwork too. Almost all martial artists in fights revert to the standard school-yard slugging after maybe one or two initial techniques.

If I ever saw a perfect bong sau or even a decent trap used, I'd be happy enough already. Footwork too? I don't think I'll ever see that in this lifetime or the next. The fight between the White Crane and Wu Style Tai Chi masters comes to mind. How many techniques have you guys seen in the real fights you've observed or been able to pull off in your own encounters? The honest guys will say less than half (and even then they're being a little dishonest). The bull****ters will say all the time and that people who aren't able to use their art are not practicing enough or some sort of crap like that :)

All the perfect technique guys should go fight in Ultimate or K-1 and show us their perfect techniques because all the NHB fights I've seen have been of confident martial artists who get rudely awakened. Sorry to sound bitter but I'm just a little realistic.

[[Censored]]

If we only train techniques that any person can pull off in any circumstance, what will we have? Crying Fist and Pants ****ing Palm.

The reality is that most people (who train) will never reach a high level in martial arts. You need only ensure that YOU are not in that group.

[EmptyCup]

those people train for a living. They are basically professional martial artists when most of us do it as a hobby. They are masters of their respective systems and highly regarded by their students. They are your sifu, my sifu, and the sifus of millions out there. They suck. So you're saying you're better?

[whippinghand]

Footwork maintains structure in motion.

[Losttrak]

..was something an ancient fighter used to do naturally and attempted to pass it down to his ignorant students. To him it wasnt complicated, it was natural. He didnt make it up just to confuse and annoy us. The only reason it may be complicated is because we no longer understand it usage. Look into what it means and you might see its not just footsteps, but attacks variants, etc.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

[TjD]

to me the footwork is just an extension of the stance

look at what your standing in in siu lim tau; how would you move while keeping this stance or the principles of this stance?

the answer looks like the footwork to me


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[mysteri]

if a TMA like myself came @ you with a lunging straight attack, or a lunging round attack, or feint to an angle, and then attack you form that angle, would you be able to say that you would simlpy be able to use the good old straight-step, punch-punch-punch? a lunging to leaping technique is not that sophisticated to pull off in a fight, especially if the attacker has good timing and positioning. i only WISH that i could come across fighters who would stand still or some straight in with and attack. it would sure make my fight a lot easier. no offense, just my opinion.

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

[whippinghand]

Wing Chun practitioners have a tendency to limit themselves, relying on the "straight blast".

[tiger_1]

my friends im thinks foot work is important just like good chi sao for coordination and harmony and only road for big speed of wing chunger body in fight and traning im mean for good lewel in kung fu - just friendly tiger_1 :)

/

[Nexus]

use your entire body to attack. You are the weapon, not your fists or your feet. The entire body can generate much more power in a single attack then just the right bicep muscle can do or the arm.

If you do not understand this concept, a good place to start learning is the internal martial arts such as Taijiquan, Pa Kua, hsing-i..

fa-jing is what you need to research. Explosive, full body attacks.

but.. turning the waist properly in your punches will increase power more then standard punching.

Best of luck to all practioners...

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres