pai lum history

[sayloc]

Anyone out there have any history on the pai lum forms?

[Shaolin Dude]

that system looks phony. look at the pics of the old sifu's

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
that system looks phony. look at the pics of the old sifu's
What do you base that assumtion on?




Anywho...

There is much history behind the forms, but you'll play he!! getting it out of the Sifus. I know; I've tried.:D Usually you have to "earn" the knowledge. Those who have earned it will likely not give it to you just 'cause you asked.

[brothernumber9]

he probably bases it on the name pai lum

[sayloc]

Becca

I can give you any of the history of the forms you would like. I have a lot of the history, probably as much as some of your sifus if not more.

I was just looking for a little more on one particular form. Just trying to figure out what system they took it from.

Feel free to ask any quistions.

[Just a Guy]

Pai Lum may be eclectic, but I don't think it's "phony."

A colleague of mine is teaching a student who had studied Pai Lum for nine years, and my colleague recognized at least two of this student's forms as derived from traditional Shaolin.

The student was practicing a form out of Southern Snake that we call Leopard Fist, although in Pai Lum the form was apparently taught as a Leopard form (and not a Snake form).

The student was also practicing an old southern Shaolin five animal form.

Both of these forms had various alterations from the versions that my colleague was familiar with - but they were more or less the same forms. A common root was obvious. So I would conjecture that, at least somewhere along the way, Pai Lum took in some southern Shaolin material.

[brothernumber9]

I would guess that Pia Lum is an amalgamation of several different martial arts. I beleive Daniel K Pai was the system's founder, hence Pai Lum. However the name would still be odd since it would roughly mean "Pai Temple", and if the "Pai" part of it was not in reference to his name but more like "Pai" as in a system/family or grouping, it would be even stranger since then it would mean something akin to "Family Temple" or "System Temple". Nonetheless, every system started somewhere so at some point someone just "made it up" and named or refered to it in some way. If it works, it works and if it works it isn't phony.
at least as long as it is not trying to pass itslef off as something it is not.

[David Jamieson]

lum doesn't mean temple, it means "trees" or "forest" et al or it is a family name which does not mean trees. But rather is a surname. Either Lum or Lam are the spellings of the name.

Pai does mean "clan" or "style" or "family" etc. So, Pai lum in Cantonese would translate roughly to "family trees" or Pai as a surname as in dan pai, + Lum for whatever context it has to them. It might not even be a cantonese phonetic afterall.

Perhaps you are thinking of teh word "shi" or "si" which mean temple in the phrase " Shao Lin Si"

Anyway, I see in their photos they do a hapkido stance a lot. So, could be a mix of Tae Kwon Do, or other Korean MA with a smidgen of Karate and probably some CMA extrapolated or gathered from here and there.

Not really that unusual when one talks about american martial arts. Also, There really aren't any "old" forms. All the forms we have today are pretty much modern interpretations with very very few exceptions.

Even in old and long lineages the forms change according to what is known in teh here and now. And tehy are adapted to the times for the most part. So what was down and how it was practiced 500 years ago simply isn't happening now. maybe a couple of generations of survival, but after that, they can't do anything but change to fit the changing world.

[Shaolin Dude]

I did see some of pai lum's forms and it definitely look traditional southern. the reason I said that because of that daniel k pai's pics. he looks phony

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolin Dude
I did see some of pai lum's forms and it definitely look traditional southern. the reason I said that because of that daniel k pai's pics. he looks phony
... If you say so. I try to base my oppinions on something more than a photo, though.

Pai does mean "clan" or "style" or "family" etc. So, Pai lum in Cantonese would translate roughly to "family trees" or Pai as a surname as in dan pai, + Lum for whatever context it has to them. It might not even be a cantonese phonetic afterall
To us, Pai Lum means "White Dragon." Take what you will from that.

Anyway, I see in their photos they do a hapkido stance a lot. So, could be a mix of Tae Kwon Do, or other Korean MA with a smidgen of Karate and probably some CMA extrapolated or gathered from here and there.
No direct Korean, to my knowledge, but Grand Master Pai was from Hawaii. I know from having lived there for 3 years that there is alot of Korean culture there, so that may be a possability. But yes, there is alot of Japanese influence. 70% of my Ninjitsu translates almost perfectly with Pai Lum teachings. I'm still a noob to CMA, so I have no clue when it comes to what parts are "pure".

[David Jamieson]

well, pai lum doesn't translate to "white dragon" in any language really that I can think of.

That would be "bok lung" Lung, loong, et al are the words for "dragon" in chinese. But not Lum and Pai as "white" would be stretching it even phonetically.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry to much about names, people can call stuff whatever they want to call it. Hanging on to all that superfluous stuff only means you are missing out on the real meaning of what you are doing or being taught to do.

But as Yip Man once said, and I paraphrase, it is good to know the source of the water from which you drink.

[Fu-Pow]

Bai Long would, however, translate to mean "white dragon."

Perhaps Pai Lum is just somebodies crappy romanization.

[David Jamieson]

i think they all it "pai" because of daniel pai, their main teacher, according to their site.

[Fu-Pow]

Maybe there teachers name was Pai X X. Is "White" a chinese last name?

[Ou Ji]

Pai Lum, the style, is named after Daniel K. Pai and it's Kenpo based so you should see a Japanese influence rather than Korean. The name of Glen Wilson's chain of schools is White Dragon. Most of the Kenpo in the U.S. came out of the Parker ranch in Hawaii (Ed Parker - American Kenpo, Professor K.S. Chow - Kara Ho Kenpo, Tracy Brothers - American Kenpo, Daniel K. Pai - Pai Lum). For some reason only Pai Lum went in the direction of Chinese Kung Fu while the rest fall in with the Karate crowd.

[Becca]

Pai Lum is actually the common name of the style. The full name is Pai te Lung Ch'uan Shi'ang Kung Fu. ntc translated it as "Pai Family's Dragon Fist Kung Fu." Grand Master Pai was the one who said his surname means "white." I figure he would probably know...:rolleyes: :) The choice of "lum" rather than "lung" in not so big of a stretch, considering that there were hundreds of dialects spoken in Mainland China at the time Po Fong Pai, Danial K. Pai's grandfather and the true founder of the style, immigrated. (He came over durring the mid 1920s) Could also be cr@ppy rominization, too.;)

[sayloc]

I will be specific.

Does anyone Know what system the "Inner Tiger" form comes from? or was it made up within the pai lum ystem and people.

come on! There has got to be some old Pai Lumers out there!

thanks

[Becca]

No. Forget it. This thread has been hyjacked and you can't get it back.:mad: ......;)

On that note, no, there are few Pai Lum old timmers on this board, or rather, none who admit to it. But check over at cyberkwoon. There is a section the focuses on just Pai Lum somewhere. You might have more luck there. :)

[unixfudotnet]

In the beginning of teaching, GM Pai taught Kempo to students, and then later on decided to teach the kungfu he learned from his father to students. The kungfu he has, he learned from his father and is stuff he learned from his family and so is a family line. Sure, it may differ and be called different things, but it is the same thing. The same is true with the Yang long form, it has variations, but there are 2341251345356 variations of the long form, yet the moves are all the same. With the forms and especially with Taijiquan, things can vary, yet still be true to being what it is. You will also find the people's Taijiquan forms change as they grow in development and work different things.

So, GM Pai learned kungfu from his family and is something that is passed down in his family. His father sent him to learn Kempo in Okinawa.

The Pai Lum system is a blend of all GM Pai knew: Tradional Kungfu, Kempo, Chi Gung, and Yang family style Taijiquan. I believe that is a great system and none of the stuff is made up. The teachings of GM Pai also include more than just the physical martial arts and seem to be very buddist in nature.

Maybe worth looking into, next to you meet a Pai Lum student (that isn't new).

[South Paw]

Anyway the Pai Lum system is recognized as Kung Fu within the Chinese Kuoshu Association for over 25 years.

I met Daniel K. Pai the first time in Taiwan during a Kuoshu General Meeting early eighties and he was treated with much respect.

[Joe Mantis]

Sayloc,

You know Inner Tiger?
It's an interesting set.

Joe Mantis

[Shoalinm.]

I do Pai lum. I do a different version of Pai Lum then Glenn Wilson. Glenn Wilson is Not True pai lum his sifus are fakes.He did a kenpo style before he started pai lum.He only trained with Grandmaster Pai for two years not his lie of 20 years. He brings dishonor to pai lum.My version and Grandmaster shunn him and his version.Pai lum is truely a effective style but Glenn's fake pai lum is not.So dont say all Pai lum is fake.

[unixfudotnet]

I think we speak for that as well :)

My sigung's teacher is Master Everett @ http://www.white-lotus.com/

[Becca]

Yup. That's what I've bean told, as well. D'you guys see this year's Pai Lum calender? Notice that none of Glenn Wilson's schools are listed? That list is s'poded to be a complete list of all kwoons that still remain true to Grandmaster Pai's teachings.

[unixfudotnet]

have you seen his horse stance, lol? enough said.

[Becca]

mmm... No I never really pick on someone else's horse stance. Mine ain't that great, either. 'Course, I'm not trying to be something/someone I'm not...;)

[Shoalinm.]

The Glen Wilson Story

In truth the g. wilson lineage was the last to join the Pai Lum system and not how it is indicated in the family tree of his book.

His real rank is just a forth higher level and that was given to him just to match his rank in his former style. His sixth level is fictitious. For in truth he did not earn it by working his way up through the style.

A true Grandson/disciple was give a Chinese name with "Pai" as part of it. Gee what is his name.

Most of his Pai Lum forms came from a video tape.

Master Pai saw that wilson had good marketing skills and that is why he played on wilsons ego. And that is all

[Shoalinm.]

The Glen Wilson Story

In truth the g. wilson lineage was the last to join the Pai Lum system and not how it is indicated in the family tree of his book.

His real rank is just a forth higher level and that was given to him just to match his rank in his former style. His sixth level is fictitious. For in truth he did not earn it by working his way up through the style.

A true Grandson/disciple was give a Chinese name with "Pai" as part of it. Gee what is his name.

Most of his Pai Lum forms came from a video tape.

Master Pai saw that wilson had good marketing skills and that is why he played on wilsons ego. And that is all

[MasterKiller]

Upon returning to Connecticut in 1972, Mr. Everett's involvement in the Chinese Martial Arts began. He chanced upon Grandmaster Daniel K. Pai, head of the Pai Lum White Dragon Fist System, while looking for one of his old karate teachers at the YWCA in New Britain, CT. Within six months he was named Chief Instructor at Grandmaster Pai's Fire Dragon School in Hartford, CT; and within another year was named Chief Instructor of all White Dragon Fist Kung Fu schools under Grandmaster Pai. In 6 months he was running the school, and after 18 months he was running ALL the schools? :confused:

[unixfudotnet]

I am not sure of all the details, but I trust that if GM Pai thought he was good enough, then he was :)

Master Everett also lived with GM Pai for like 7 or 9 years (i forget exactly how many, my SiGung told me, yet I forgot), and the single one person that GM Pai taught the most to and trusted to carry on the art, in my opinion. Wilson happened to be at the right place in the right time, it seems. It is suspected that GM Pai could have told 5 people that they could carry on the art after his death...

There is division in the Pai Lum arts, Wilson (which is pretty much not it), and true Pai Lum taught by GM Pai. If only he was still alive to clean it all up, otherwise we just have to trust in our teachers and what are being taught is the real deal. I believe I am learning Pai Lum as GM Pai taught it and wanted it to be carried on without anything changed or modified.

[Shoalinm.]

Some Master of Pai lum are Master sanders and master Harris (i forget there chinese names)Some true grandmasters are pai shinzan pai san chuan pai bok hok and there are a few more masters and grandmasters

[sayloc]

For one branch of pai lum to say another branch was not real or made up is crazy.

If you do your history on the pai lum forms you will figure out where most of them were "borrowed" from in the sixties and seventies. That was when pai lum was put together. The only forms that may have some history may be Pai lum, pai lim, pai chow, the ones with the pai prefix.

There has been so many people made masters from off shoots of that system it is unbelievable.

Pai lum has a 40 year history, tops.

Dave everett was mentioned. From what I know he is very good. Pai lum produced alot of good fighters.

Glenn wilson may have had added some stuff. Is that worse than going out and collecting forms to develop the system?

Glenn Wilson still produces great fighters and is doing alot to promote pai lum.

I think the two sides should egos aside (that would be hard in a belt ranking society) and come together for the good. Pai must have seen something in wilson. He was the grand master he called the shots. Isnt it disrespectfull to go against his wishes?

I did have a pai lum instructor tell me that pai told his instructor that hung ga came from pai lum. (I think he may have gotten it mixed up:)

Anyway, I like pai lum and it produces good fighters.

[unixfudotnet]

people that study pai lum (at least in my school) are told about the forms they are studying and we realize that it is a system of other styles.

the "branch" is about what is real and what is not and the true intention of GM Pai, which I suppose no one can know except those that were his senior most students and GM Pai himself.

I love my school though and SiGung is awesome in ability and teaching. I feel very lucky.

Pai Lum has it's drama too, unfortunately. Sorry to get wrapped up in it on this thread. I really don't like it.

But yeah, Pai Lum produces awesome fighters.

[Becca]

Originally posted by sayloc
For one branch of pai lum to say another branch was not real or made up is crazy..... I think the two sides should egos aside (that would be hard in a belt ranking society) and come together for the good. Pai must have seen something in wilson. He was the grand master he called the shots. Isnt it disrespectfull to go against his wishes?

Anyway, I like pai lum and it produces good fighters.
Amen! One thing you seem to be missing, though. There are five Pai Lum Grandmasters, [I]all[/I of which insist they are the one true grandmaster chosen by Grandmaster Pai Before he died. Then there are other branches who do not recognize any living grandmaster, because Grandmaster Pai Did not formally recognize any one grandson or grandauter to take the mantle.

In other words, Pai Lum is just like any other CMA, and we squabble over liniege. I still choose to think of it more as different traditions in the same extended family. My sisters and I were raised together, but keep house a bit differently that each other. The same with all the little tendrils of Pai Lum. The curiculum is the same, the forms and drills are the same. The only difference is in the actual running of the school, and in uniforms. You can more or less tell which grandson runs what orginization by the Sa'am the student's wear. I honesly feel no need what so ever to squabble over this. Unixfu studies under Dave Everett. PaiLumDreamer studies under Glenn Wilson. I study under Sifu Galiano. So what? We are still family, just more like extended cousins.;)

[MasterKiller]

So where are all the pictures of you and your sisters?

[Becca]

Yea, I know I haven't posted one. I keep meening to scan one in, but just never get around to it.:)

[MasterKiller]

Preferably, one where you're all in Flag Girl uniforms and wearing pig-tails.....

[Shoalinm.]

i agree that Glenn has produced good fighters he has a ok style but it is not true pai lum.Pai lum has a history since shaolin temple grand master pai fused together a bunch of martial arts who them selves had histories so everything we do may have a history that can be traced back to ancient China Japan.Grandaster pai did not want to have one grandmaster to take over all pai lum. He made grandmasters of different branches.These grandmasters also had done martial arts before they started Pai Lum.Pai told them to mix there old styles plus pai lum to make there own branch so mot all pai lum schools do the same exact thing but they are very similar.Pai also taught his students different ways.My version is mixed of shotokan karate pai lum kung fu chineses kenpo judo and jujutsu

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Now that's interesting. Puts a whole new light on the issue, for me at least. So then Glen Wilson proceeded to collect up whatever forms he could gather to round out his branch of Pai Lum? And he was originally a Kenpo stylist? Who did he train under in Kenpo?

I haven't seen a whole lot of Pai Lum but I do know a few guys that trained there. There is a school near me but I never stopped in and watched a class. Maybe I'll swing by on a fact finding mission. Actually I'll be seeing an ex-Pai Lum instructor next week so I'll get more of the inside from him.