Slow and Steady or fast track then detail ?

[AdrianUK]

Hi All

I am in a quandry at the moment, I am stagnating in my training and pondering the future, after reading through the posts on here and other wing chun sources I have a question. I am in WT at the moment, where its very much detail all the way, hence long time to learn something new, other WC comes across as more learn more soon then repeat and detail over the years. My question is does option 2 work better or worse than option 1 ? I have read it all saying that if your first 2 forms are understood and applied you never need the third etc. But I am finding I feel bogged down in the training, could be me, I just wondered if anyone else has tried either or both ways and has an opinion

Thanks
Adrian

[old jong]

IMO, I prefer to learn (or teach) something new only if it is based on something well understood. Going too fast can mean having to go back to correct lots of mistakes an lose your times.But,it does not mean "stalling" a student either!...

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

You are 100% correct Old Jong, I’ll rather lose money then time. And I’ll take life over richest. A youg person can not understand this.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Adrian,

You should test yourself more. Just an observation. I trained in WT for ten years (plus). I felt that in that time I learned plenty. Since, I have experienced other approaches, and they may or may not be any 'faster'. Your ability to learn is dependent on you, not entirely on the system you train. Different people work well in different systems. Besides all that, I have found for myself that when I feel as though I've reached a 'slow' period that is when I need to challenge the assumptions I have and put my techniques under stress. Usually after a period of testing such as that, I have a mess of things I want to develop and my training 'speeds' up.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by AdrianUK

I just wondered if anyone else has tried either or both ways and has an opinion

I have seen many similar situations, and more or less concluded that there are certain organizations that will try to endlessly milk the forms for details which they can charge lesson fees for (regardless of how relevant those techniques are to your progress as a fighter / practicioner). There is much more interest in their business than in your development. The goal seems to be to ensure that:

1) You will stick around for the next 20 years.

2) You will continually lust after the next (more advanced) program despite ever increasing costs (so long as they market it to you in a seductive way.)

3) You will eventually become a teacher yourself (bringing in new people to the organization) in order to pay for the outrageous fees of the higher level programs.

It's a sad spiral.......


You'd have to honestly assess a couple of things about the higher ranking guys in your organization:

First, their skill level. -How good would they be going up against someone other than their own students? (Remember, ANY martial artist looks like an a$$ kicker against their own lower ranked people.) -How would they fare against a guy who's trained MMA, grappling, or Muay Thai for an equivalent amount of time?

Secondly, look at; the amount of money they had to spend, the amount of politics they've had to deal with, and the hoops they've had to jump through to get that far. -Then ask yourself if you are willing to pay that price.


Of course, it never hurts to go to a few other schools and check out what they're doing. You might find something that's suits you much better.

When a person is in a less-than-perfect relationship, they often feel stuck because they worry they won't be able to do any better "out there". They have that feeling because their self-esteem is in the toilet. -Why is it in the toilet? Because of their bad relationship.

Like I said above; a sad spiral....... :(

-Lawrence

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
You are 100% correct Old Jong, I’ll rather lose money then time. And I’ll take life over richest. A youg person can not understand this.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)
Thanks Ali!

I guess it is why very few youg guys have the patience to really learn Wing Chun.And,even with patient and diligent students,we still have to give them some entertainement in their training.You know what I mean!...A student who could really go through the real training,as boring as it can be,would progress so much faster.

[Matrix]

AdrianUK,

There may be other issues involved. Is your training really stagnating, or are you just becoming restless? Whether you ultimately choose WC or WT or VT or XYZ, it doesn't matter. Make your choice and commit to it. Choose what is best for you long-term, not how fast you can get somewhere. The ultimate destination is much more important than getting anywhere quickly.

I would recommend that you read the book Mastery by George Leonard. It speaks to your quandry.

"Learn to love the plateaus".

[t_niehoff]

There is much truth in what Lawrence said. Look at performance results -- the ability to really fight of the instructor and his/her students -- that will best inform your decision. There are lots of "true masters" out there willing to teach you (for money), but very few willing to step up and prove they are real masters. ;)

[sihing]

t_neihoff,
So does that mean a Master has to prove himself each and everytime a new prospect comes into his school to find out how good he is? He has to fight each new student to prove his skill? LOL. This is ego, plain and simple. A very good reflection of skill of a supposed MA Master is in the quality of his students, can they duplicate to some degree what the master knows and teaches. Can quality be seen? Yes I think so, even by the layman. All you have to do it compare, and with today's technology that can be done mostly in the privacy of your own home. The next step is to TALK with the supposed Master and find out what his philosophy is and then take a class to get a feel for what is being taught. I lay no claim to being a Master of anything, but I do know that I have skill in WC, and people see it when I teach it to them or introduce the art to them, not by me beating them up. It's called communication.

James

[AdrianUK]

Thanks for all the replies so far

I have pondered long on wether its me or the training and I have looked around. I guess the real decision is wether I feel I am being held back by the class or I am restless. Part of it stems from the other WC classes I checked out, they ask how long have I been training then how far into the system am I , you get tired of being told "they really drag it out", and its make me think, are they right ? I know its easy for the WT haters to jump in and say "YES" but the guys that put in the time seem to think it was worth it. Saying all that though, the flow of people from WT to WC and vice versa seems pretty even and like it or not instructors have a vested interest in their side. I guess I am reaching for someone without a vested interest to say wether the struggle was worth the result, or do you look back and think "I wasted years learning things of no use"

Anyway thanks to all the people who replied

Adrian

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I just wondered if anyone else has tried either or both ways and has an opinion
Thanks

Adrian

Hello Adrian.

I tried both ways. I wanted the system real fast and seen that most of my sparring buddies could keep up with me (fighting abilities) 4 years into my training. I thought the system was bogus. Then when I asked my sifu what was going on, he said that I was a knowledge hog and wanted too much information to soon, and that I never digested my food that was on my plate and kept stuffing myself with more until I became sick with unfinished knowledge (uncooked food). So I started all over. It took me 7 years to pass the sli lum tao system, it would have been a lot sooner if I was too listen too details the first time (slowed my silly a*s down). Now some say that my abilities speak for it self. I love too talk with my hands.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by AdrianUK
I know its easy for the WT haters to jump in and say "YES" but the guys that put in the time seem to think it was worth it.

I would suggest you read Lawrence's post agin, and with the understanding that he put a lot of years (and $$$) into the WT system.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
t_neihoff,
So does that mean a Master has to prove himself each and everytime a new prospect comes into his school to find out how good he is? He has to fight each new student to prove his skill? LOL. This is ego, plain and simple. A very good reflection of skill of a supposed MA Master is in the quality of his students, can they duplicate to some degree what the master knows and teaches. Can quality be seen? Yes I think so, even by the layman. All you have to do it compare, and with today's technology that can be done mostly in the privacy of your own home. The next step is to TALK with the supposed Master and find out what his philosophy is and then take a class to get a feel for what is being taught. I lay no claim to being a Master of anything, but I do know that I have skill in WC, and people see it when I teach it to them or introduce the art to them, not by me beating them up. It's called communication.

James

I'm a MT/grappling guy, and I agree with t_neihoff. No, the sifu shouldn't have to prove himself to every student that walks in, but he should have proof ready. From a sport fighting perspectve - how many champions has he trained? What's his record? How many of his students are actively competing? How are they doing? If I'm not satisfied by the answers, I wouldn't train there.

It's not as cut and dry with CMA, as not all CMA compete, but IMO, there should be some sort of criteria to go by - more than just how his students "look" and simple communication, although those should play a part.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I'm a MT/grappling guy, and I agree with t_neihoff. No, the sifu shouldn't have to prove himself to every student that walks in, but he should have proof ready. From a sport fighting perspectve - how many champions has he trained? What's his record? How many of his students are actively competing? How are they doing? If I'm not satisfied by the answers, I wouldn't train there.



I know quite a few good Wing Chun instructors who would have the following answers:

1. How many champions have you trained? Answer: NONE

Who knows of any recognized Wing Chun champions?

2. What's your record? Answer: Never competed professionally.

Who knows of any Wing Chun sifu who competed professionally?


Yet many of those same teachers have had students who have been successful on the street.

[sihing]

Yes, I would agree with you there if the MA being taught or the school is being promoted as more sport orientated(TKD, Muay Thai gyms) than an traditional MA. You'd better have the trophies displayed and the pictures with all of the students that are ranked in your school to show the instructor can produce high quality athletes. If this is not the case then, the prospective student will have to investigate more, but I honestly believe that the caliber of a MA instructor can and will be reflected through his/her students, and that quality can be seen in everything they do. The instructors under the Master, how well do they know the material, do they answer any and all questions promptly, is their own technique quick, precise and executed with power, etc...There is a large school in the city run by Mike Miles, it's a Muay Thai gym and according to the advertising Mike used to be a champion of some sort in the ring for Muay Thai. That would have been years ago, and from the recent pics I have seen of Mike, he no longer trains, but he has produced World champs in the sport, so it would be advisable that if one wanted to learn Muay Thai for competition then that would be the school to go to.

James

[AmanuJRY]

So, the question remains that if the 'Master' does not train for competition, what kind of 'proof' can he provide? and, are they obligated to provide it?

IMO, the evidence (whatever it is) should be available were the Master challenged to provide it. Do they need to provide it to every new student? Not unless the student requests the evidence. However, in such a case as a 'Master' level of skill, the evidence would be just as likly in the senior students as it is in the Master (providing they are a good instructor, which is another element altogether).

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
There is much truth in what Lawrence said. Look at performance results -- the ability to really fight of the instructor and his/her students -- that will best inform your decision. There are lots of "true masters" out there willing to teach you (for money), but very few willing to step up and prove they are real masters. ;)

How can someone prove they are a master of Wing Chun and who has done that?

I have a friend in Chicago who went to a Ba Gua school. He questioned the "master" about what a certain movement was for and then the guy stepped on his knee and broke it. So that ended his journey into that fabulous art.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
I know quite a few good Wing Chun instructors who would have the following answers:

1. How many champions have you trained? Answer: NONE

Who knows of any recognized Wing Chun champions?

2. What's your record? Answer: Never competed professionally.

Who knows of any Wing Chun sifu who competed professionally?


Yet many of those same teachers have had students who have been successful on the street.

that's exactly my point - you can't quantify it. As I stated, I can't use the same criteria that I use for thai boxing, but there has to be something to base it on....something more substantial than unverifiable accounts of street successes and such.

For the record though, there have been WC guys who competed in MMA. I dunno if they were sifu or not though.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sihing
Yes, I would agree with you there if the MA being taught or the school is being promoted as more sport orientated(TKD, Muay Thai gyms) than an traditional MA. You'd better have the trophies displayed and the pictures with all of the students that are ranked in your school to show the instructor can produce high quality athletes. If this is not the case then, the prospective student will have to investigate more, but I honestly believe that the caliber of a MA instructor can and will be reflected through his/her students, and that quality can be seen in everything they do.

I can understand and appreciate that, but a newbie won't be able to tell one way or another...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
How can someone prove they are a master of Wing Chun and who has done that?

I have a friend in Chicago who went to a Ba Gua school. He questioned the "master" about what a certain movement was for and then the guy stepped on his knee and broke it. So that ended his journey into that fabulous art.

Where is this teacher now? you're not talking about choi, are you?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Where is this teacher now? you're not talking about choi, are you?

I don't remember any names and if I did I wouldn't want to mention anyone. This incident occured more than 5 years ago if not longer. My friend was publishing a martial arts magazine at the time and also did a writeup of the event in this magazine because he was so angry.

[anerlich]

Who knows of any Wing Chun sifu who competed professionally?

Rick Spain, 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur.

One of my sihing's students won a shooto tournament just last week.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by anerlich
Rick Spain, 37 pro kickboxing matches and over 100 amateur.

One of my sihing's students won a shooto tournament just last week.

Any vidoes around of Rick's matches or anything?

[anerlich]

Not unless he has some, definitely no commercial ones. REmember these occurred eighteen years ago or earlier.

I have seen a vid of a demo match he put on with another high ranking WC guy. Purists would be disappointed, as it looks like kickboxing not WC, though high calibre kickboxing.

There might be footage somewhere of his exibition bouts with Benny Urquidez and Bill Wallace - the latter was just clowning, the former a bit more of a slugfest.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by old jong
IMO, I prefer to learn (or teach) something new only if it is based on something well understood. Going too fast can mean having to go back to correct lots of mistakes an lose your times.But,it does not mean "stalling" a student either!...

Back to the original topic, OJ hit the nail on the head.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by YongChun
I have a friend in Chicago who went to a Ba Gua school. He questioned the "master" about what a certain movement was for and then the guy stepped on his knee and broke it. So that ended his journey into that fabulous art.

That is so chicken-$hit to go all out on a technique when someone is intentionally allowing themselves to be vulnerable so you can demonstrate something. :rolleyes:

To borrow a phrase from Ernie; -That "master" deserves a shoe job. :mad:

-Lawrence

[Tydive]

I think this post tells us exactly why there are more McDojo's out there then traditional schools. With the emphasis on getting a new belt or stripe every few weeks you can keep people feeling like they are accomplishing something. What is the rush to get to the next form? Why not master the one you are working on then use that understanding to move on to another stage of training?

You might also want to get some private lessons from your Sifu and focus on what you are not yet doing right. Are you relaxed enough? Do you try to force openings? Do you flow with the opponent? Have you realized that your opponent is really your partner? Are you trying to "win" rather than learn? Are you centered and present? Hopefully your Sifu or instructor can give you some feedback. If they can't give you any specifics then look for another person who can communicate with you.

One of my favorite quotes:
"Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect."

[Kevin Bell]

Hello Adrian,

Well if you ever want to check out another Class and you dont mind traveling your always welcome to come down to Southampton and train with myself and Al Gibson.

Alternatively being your from Surrey you could try Clive Potter in St Albans,class is a good friendly atmosphere or even try getting hold of Nick Forrer who i believe teaches somewhere in London,they are probably your best bet in terms travelling.Nick posts on this forum so give him an email.


Kev Bell

[blooming lotus]

this whole option 1 plays 2 thing is not obviously not restricted to WC. I like option 2. I obviously wouldn't use it until I was proficient with it, but being the amount of travel I do, It works well enough for me. That being said though, I am fortunate to have enough in my arsenal to not need that move until it's down.


If it wasn't for travel though, option 1 is always sound.

cheers