Is Bad Posture Really Good Posture?

[mickey]

Greetings,

Most of us have been taught to sit up straight to develop good posure and we have never really questioned it?

Yet I have noticed that the slightly rounded posture, known as "slouched" posture, offers the benefit of activating the abdominal wall which, in turn keeps and pushes, the internal organs in place. I have noticed that athletes with the slouched posture almost always had fantastic abdominal development, moved faster (reptile brain stimulation?), and more often had better muscular development than those that did not slouch.

Observations?

mickey

[David Jamieson]

A forced straight posture is not = to good posture.

Good posture is where the bone structure is in it's natural form and is able to for the most part support itself without a lot of muscle involvement beyond the minimum requirements.

People get the wrong idea about what good posture is and they often interpret it as rigidity as opposed to a natural line. Which depending on the person can appear to be a slightly convex upper back without the chest thrust out.

Many people force the back straight and thrust out the chest and figure that is good posture. It's not, it's rigid posture but not exactly what I would call good posture.

[mickey]

At last someone responds!

I totally agree with you Kung Lek.

Social conditioning, in this case, may have caused individuals to fall short of their athletic potential.

mickey

[Samurai Jack]

How do you figure the "reptilian brain" (I assume your talking about the amigdala) is stimulated by slouching, or even responsible for "moving faster"? The Amigdala is responsible for basic emotions such as anger or fear.

Also slouching dosen't give you the ability to use your abdominal muscles very efficiently as it's close to the position of greatest abdominal flexion. It's like saying that keeping your elbow entirely bent will allow you to use your biceps more efficiently than if you allow your arm to extend! Obviously that's also incorrect.

Finally, slouching compresses the diaphram and the lungs making breathing less efficient. Logically that would seem to degrade athletic performance.

Just a few observations.

[IronMonkey]

Good posture is needed so the chi can flow smoother :)

[mickey]

Hi Samurai Jack and IronMonkey,

SJ: I did write "reptile brain stimulation" with a question mark. The reptile brain corresponds to the Medulla Oblongata. Not only only does it correspond to fear and anger, but also, on the unconscious level, movement.

Since you mention fear and anger, that is the same as the fight or flight response. Integrated in that response is the adrenal response.

Also I was referring to the rectus abdominals. If a curving of the back does not activate them, then crunches are useless.

I am not talking about extreme Hunchback slouching. :)

IronMonkey: The slight curving of the upper back does provide traction to the spine.

mickey

[mickey]

More:

I am really taking a chance that this may not work since I do not know how sensitive you are:

1- Sit on the edge of a sturdy chair. On your sitting bones, haunches or whatever you may use to describe them. Feet flat on floor, hands on thighs near knee.

2- Focus on a point directly in front of you.

3- While focusing on that point, slowly round your spine beginning at the tailbone and workin your way to the shoulders. The slight curving should shift you forward about 1 1/2 tio 2 inches. Do not shift your focus from that point.

4- Feel. Hold for a minute or two.

Get back to me.

mickey



mickey

[Samurai Jack]

Mickey, if you want to believe that keeping your rectus abdominus muscles flexed is somehow going to improve your ability to use them, more power to you. I submit that if the two functions of a muscle are to shorten and elongate, then keeping any muscle in your body shortened is going to limit your range of motion. This will result in less efficiency, not more.

For a thourough explanation of the function, location and charicteristics of the medula oblongata, refer to the following web site:

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/m/medulla-oblongata.htm

I can see why you might think that creating pressure in the spinal chamber by creating an abnormal flexion of the spinal column might "stimulate" the MO, however it's function has little to do with speed or emotion, and I'm not sure what effect "stimulation" might have on it. After all it's "stimulated" every time a nerve impulse passes through it from the central nervous system to the brain.

Again, just more observations.

[mickey]

Samurai Jack,

It is not about staying flexed or tense, I am writing about what Western society considers good posture and that we may be missing something by conforming to the straightness that Western society encourages. The pull of the rectus abdominals is a natural, involuntary, one.

Did you try the exercise? Try it. Feel it.

I am enjoying the discussion, by the way.

mickey

[Samurai Jack]

Actually, I did try the exercise.

I understand what you're talking about, but I still disagree with your conclusions.

Since you like exercises so much, why not try this one:

Try jogging for five minutes hunched over as you discribe.

Try sprinting thirty yards or so with poor posture.

Try deadlifting a LIGHT (!) weight with a flexed spine (better yet, don't it's too dangerous).

After these exercises, rest for an hour, then try the same thing with correct posture.

Try it. Feel it.

I'm enjoying the conversation also. I'd like to continue it when you've got something more than a hunch to back up your arguments (no pun intended).;)

[mickey]

Samurai Jack,

That last post was hilarious.:)))))

I am talking about natural posture. For me to suggest that people change their posture, I would be no better than those who insist on others to have a straight posture. I simply noticed a common thread that quite a few high level performers have.

I have seen that natural posture in competitive sports: swimming, track, boxing.

mickey

[fa_jing]

I think what mickey is trying to say is that John Wayne didn't have good functional posture. I think we know that. Neither do most Drill Sargeants. Chest puffed out, etc.

But, look at any pro athlete, and, that is approximately the best posture for what they do. There isn't much mistery to it. Dancers, running backs.

If you want to know what I think, the spine should be stretched as straight as possible with two natural curves, as if the top of your crown and the tailbone were being pulled apart. If you line up against a wall you should be able to make every vertabrae and the sacrum flush with the wall.

A good description of the above can be found in Mantak Chia's Iron Shirt Chi Kung book, in fact that's where I got it from. It's the same in Tai Chi though.

[IronFist]

My 2 cents:

In the short (and awesome) time when I was going to an NHB school before I had to move, we would use what was called the "Crazy monkey" fighting posture. Don't get the name wrong, it had nothing to do with monkey style kung fu. Just think of boxing with your palms on your forehead, similar to Mike Tyson's peek-a-boo boxing style.

Anyway, our fighting position had a lot of characteristics of what would be considered "bad posture" for regular standing. We had, starting from the top, working down (keep in mind this is stance where you face your opponent square on, like in boxing):

Chin tucked in
Shoulders shrugged forward and up
Back curved, almost like a hunchback
Pelvis pulled in

Now, the chin was tucked in to protect it because getting hit in the chin is as easy way to get knocked out. That one is self explanatory.

The shoulders are shrugged up to help protect the chin both during a punch and standing, or if your hands are otherwise tied up it's a last-ditch effort to protect the chin.

The back is curved, along with the pelvis pulled in, to shorten the exposed abdominal region as well as have the stomach area further away from the opponent. While standing like this, if your face is just in punching range, your opponent would be unable to reach your stomach with a punch. If your opponent closes and manages a body hook or something, simply bending the knees a bit to lower yourself and dropping an elbow down (hand still on the forehead or maybe slid down to cheek level) will protect the entire area. And I suppose if a punch gets through, with your pelvis already drawn in your abs will be in that much better of a position to tense up and protect you.

Anyway, my point is that good posture for fighting = bad posture for standing. After seeing how this all fits together in class there is no way I would ever change to another fighting stance.

[Samurai Jack]

With shoulders up and back curved, your weight floats up in your chest. It's not really possible to have good connection between center and limbs. I guess it's a good thing it makes it easier to take a punch... you'll be doing alot of that when you freeze your weight in your shoulders.

:D

Of course I realize there're alot of different ways to fight, so I won't seriously knock it. It's just ridiculously easy to throw someone who's top heavy in my experience. I suppose the boxer's not too worried about that though.

I thought you did wing chun Iron. Do you still guard your centerline?

[IronFist]

I used to do a little wing chun. I don't want to start a TMA vs. MMA debate so I will simply leave it at: I don't do WC anymore.

:D

You're right, tho. There are different ways to fight. I've found what works best for me, and that's what everyone should strive to do.

[Buby]

Originally posted by IronFist
My 2 cents:

In the short (and awesome) time when I was going to an NHB school before I had to move, we would use what was called the "Crazy monkey" fighting posture.

-In Yau Kung Mun and Pak Mei (I think S. Mantis/S.Dragon) this posture is known as Ha Hum(monkey chest)

Don't get the name wrong, it had nothing to do with monkey style kung fu.
Anyway, our fighting position had a lot of characteristics of what would be considered "bad posture" for regular standing. We had, starting from the top, working down (keep in mind this is stance where you face your opponent square on, like in boxing):

Chin tucked in
Shoulders shrugged forward and up
- Ours shoulders come forward and dropped/rolled forward(for lack of better words)

Back curved, almost like a hunchback
- The rolling of shoulders forward give the impression of the spine not being straight when in reality it is.

Pelvis pulled in

Now, the chin was tucked in to protect it because getting hit in the chin is as easy way to get knocked out. That one is self explanatory.

The shoulders are shrugged up to help protect the chin both during a punch and standing, or if your hands are otherwise tied up it's a last-ditch effort to protect the chin.

The back is curved, along with the pelvis pulled in, to shorten the exposed abdominal region as well as have the stomach area further away from the opponent. While standing like this, if your face is just in punching range, your opponent would be unable to reach your stomach with a punch. If your opponent closes and manages a body hook or something, simply bending the knees a bit to lower yourself and dropping an elbow down (hand still on the forehead or maybe slid down to cheek level) will protect the entire area. And I suppose if a punch gets through, with your pelvis already drawn in your abs will be in that much better of a position to tense up and protect you.
-It seems that you use this posture for defensive purposes...do you use this posture offensively? This posture is great for short power, all you need to add is luk ging, luk hup, and Fau(float) Chum(sink) Tung(swallow) Toe(spit). This posture also trains iron body.

Anyway, my point is that good posture for fighting = bad posture for standing. After seeing how this all fits together in class there is no way I would ever change to another fighting stance.

-It's an excellent fighting posture. It protects the center, trains iron shirt, and allows you to deliver a hell of a lot of power in a very short distance.

Take care,
Buby

[IronFist]

^ You forgot to put your response outside of the quote tags.

Anyway, I don't think it has anything to do with iron shirt. At least that wasn't ever mentioned in my class :)

[Buby]

You're not training Iron shirt cause all you are using is the external posture (shell) w/ no internal work, and without the internal you will never develope the iron shirt skills. It's trained together, you can't have yin w/o the yang. Actually most people who train this posture don't know they are training Iron Shirt.LOL

Do you use this posture when punching?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Buby
Do you use this posture when punching?

Thanks in advance,
Buby

Yes. I'm in that posture standing facing my opponent. My lead (left) leg is a bit in front. When I punch with a jab, for example, I keep that posture while throwing the jab pretty much the way a boxer would, ie. front foot turns on the toes a little, hips turn a little (not as much as a cross), shoulders stay up, etc.

[Samurai Jack]

I like MMA and TMA, they both have thier place or they wouldn't both be as popular as they are. I have found that training one very specialized art is about all I can handle right now, but sometime in the future I'd like to throw some Judo or traditional Jujutsu into the mix.

I used to box and practice Kung Fu also. They're both a great workout, and teach many useful skills for the street fighter. Thing is, I can't hit my patients when they attack me, and when I finally get a job as a cop, I'll want to avoid lawsuits and such (plus if I need to hit someone I''ll have a handy baton with me anyway)!

Train hard.

[blooming lotus]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me If I re-run something that's already been said. I recently ran into a bone doctor in the chinese army ( sorry , I'm tired and can't remember the name ) so I assume he is familiar with this. I have kyphosis myself ( curvature of the lumbar region) and to correct this I rely on my pushups.

He lieterally told me that I had great structure and posture. My points are that firstly, my natural "slouchy " posture is not the best posture and as you know, my abs ( including everything behind them ) are a major focus of my training. I find that spine health is so essential to good abs and good health in general. With things like yoga and pilates, it comes down to good alignment and settling all your organs comfotabley in their best position with sufficient room to function properly. In both of these exercise programme, we tuck our navel to the spine and lengthen, then re-set vertabraical position.
I do conceed that when you are relaxed your posture will change, and from what I've read about this, the "best" posture is shoulders square but loose, and stomache down , ribs tucked and abs lengthened down. i guess that's where I myself get my awesome ab density and why my iron shirt works well. By doing this throughout the day, you not only get a constant Iso ab contraction, but as a repercussion / bi - product, your organs benifit from the extra support.

cheers
BL