help me settle a debate...

[SevenStar]

1. how much grappling - ground grappling - is inherent to the WC system?

2. As far as "high level systems" go - taiji, bagua, etc. - from an internal perspective, where does WC rank?

yeah, I know -the second question is stupid. I don't get into all of the "high level, low level" system crap, but this is for the sake of a debate with someone...

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

Answer to #1 (none)
Answer to # 2 (very low) because the stance have too be changed from yee jee kim yang mah too a large or wide stance. Which is not wing chun. And has nothing too do with wing chun development, when we develop chi kung in advance sil lum tao we use the hand movements but with a very wide stance for better chi flow and without tight movements. Which in some cases could make your chi level very high. Some of the other systems specialize in chi kung but not wing chun. But some my say different.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[SevenStar]

Thanks. That confirmed pretty much what I had been saying.

[YongChun]

I think Wing Chun consists of principles for fighting effectively and economically. Essentially it is a striking art. However a lot of physical actions can still be used for locking, counter locking and grappling although not to the degree of a real grappler. Daito Ryu is a very high level type of Aikido but when you look at the actions, many look like actions found in some of the WingChun forms but these are trained in Daito Ryu to have different function such as to lock up an opponents joints (Make his arm stiff like a rod) so that he can be thrown with minimal movement. As examples I have seen the bar arm used by the Gracies on the ground to push the guys head. I have seen the bar arm used to stop an incoming charge or as a first step in a counter to a headlock. The bending wrist movements from Bil Jee can be used to both lock and opponent and to counter certain locks. The elbow use and circular foot actions in Bil Jee can be used for throwing and sweeping the opponent. We have Lap sau and Po Pai to push and pull the opponent which can be done short and abruptly to cause a shock or with different energy to send him flying into a wall.

No one knows what the intent of the Wing Chun founder was. We can just look at the forms and try to guess the ideas behind the art. A creative mind can look at Wing Chun and find anything there from Dim Mak to grappling to Qi Gong etc.

The base is a striking art. The basic use of a screwdriver is to screw in screws. But a screwdriver can also be used to open cans, as a weapon, as a throwing knife, as a short electric conductor, etc. In that light Wing Chun can be used for anything. The principles of Wing Chun can be used to play Chess or to make a fortune in the world of business.

Some schools maybe milk the Wing Chun system for all it’s worth so that the teaching can be dragged out to 20 years. Other people don’t bother with all these things and just teach the basics in less than a year and the rest is fighting to develop the skill.

[SevenStar]

This is good, keep them coming.

[sihing]

1) It's all interpretation of technique and concepts. But obviously you cannot fight the same way standing up and on the ground. I think what we try to do is still use the same concepts while fighting on the ground. I can still trap you while I am on top or on the bottom while on the ground, it's just in a different way. For me, I'd rather just knock the guy out and be done with it rather than taking him down and dragging it out that way.

2)As far as Wc being a "High level Art", I believe it is the Highest Level of MA out there today. As for internal chi-kung aspects that will come later in the training and development of the practicioner. I remember once when Sifu's wife, who is my senior and a full instructor in WC, struck me with a palm strike while doing Double arm Chi-sao, and I felt it inside my body rather than on the surface ribs or chest. So if that means "Internal" then I guess we have that too, lol.

James

[foolinthedeck]

2. internal is just a word... a beginner doing tai ji is no more internal than wing chun beginners. train for 15, 20, 30 years... keep relaxed and see what happens

[YongChun]

I would give the internal awards to:

Gold medal: Some Qi Gong guy
Silver: Some Chen Tai Chi guy
Bronze: Wing Chun

But that doesn't mean Gold is not possible with Wing Chun.

[anerlich]

My shot:

1. WC ground grappling is right up there in the deadliness stakes with BJJ striking. WC has ground defense techniques, but these are mainly guarding and striking with the legs, possibly taking the guy down, getting a few quick strikes in then jumping back up.

The Allan Goes/Kazushi Sakuraba fight in Pride had Goes successfully using techniques very similar to those used in WC. Vitor Belfort tried the same thing in his fight against Sakuraba and fared very badly.

2. "Internal" has a thousand definitions. Some have it that only styles based on the principles of TCM are "internal" and so only Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji qualify. Few people that do these styles are prepared to give WC any benefit of the doubt.

Other definitions have it that any aspects of qi cultivation or peng jing qualify a style as internal. Many WC styles include elements of qigong in their training, but mostly these have been obviously borrowed from elsewhere - not necessarily a bad thing, at one level just about every style was eclectic at some stage.

[reneritchie]

1. Some branches of WCK have very little grappling of any kind and are basically kick boxing in funny postures. Other branches have pretty substantial standing grappling though the goal is often to attain better control for striking rather than setting up throws. WCK does not have historic ground fighting, though some have extrapolated movements based on the standing foundation with various degrees of success, and others have trained ground fighting and added it in.

2. High level system is a meaningless term and depend entitely on the person making the straw man. WCK is its own system, and it depends mostly on the person using it, like any system. It's not a Qigong system, however (see historic comments above for same extrapolation/addition), if that's what you're asking (though good marketing has made that popular).

And yes, these are broad sweeping generalities and just my opinions.