Want to learn some Longfist where should I start?

[Fu-Pow]

Hey Guys, I've been learning Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji for the past 8 years. I started out in Hung Gar.

I'm interested in learning some Northern Longfist as a kind of bridge between my two main styles and to further my understanding of kung fu in general.

(Later on I'm interested in studying some of the rarer Southern styles that may have fed into Choy Lay Fut ie Hung, Li, Mok, Choy and Lau.)

Choy Lay Fut and Chen Taiji may have a common origin in some "mother" style.

I'm not trying to be a form collector per se. I'm more interested in understanding CLF and Chen Taiji better.

What's a good place to start form wise? What could I learn on my own?

What is classified as "Shaolin" Longfist these days seems to include several different longfist "styles" into one curriculum.

The forms I've heard mentioned are

-Tan Tui
-Hong Quan
-Gong Li Quan
-Mi Zong Quan
-Tai Tzu Quan
-Fan Zi Quan
-Pi Qua Quan
-Tong Bei Quan

etc. etc.

Any ideas?

Thanks.

[mickey]

Hello Fu-Pow,

Looking for connectives can be a lot of fun as well as frustrating.

If I was in your position I would look for the connectives within the styles that you currently study. I would pursue higher level studies of both styles. You may find connectives within theory, inner structure, names of techniques, etc.; for example, you may want to connect with the Chan family of the Choy Li Fut style (no, I do not know them) or the Chen family of Chen style. Simply going to another unrelated style will not accomplish that for you.

Take what you have found so far and build on it.

mickey

[Starchaser107]

good luck on your journey, my only advice is try to find a school or a teacher that teaches traditionally and with the fighting elements of the style still intact rather than just forms. I'd hate for you to become disgruntled or disenchanted due to watering down.
Speaking of which, if you remember my thread on butterfly kicks, I have some new info/insight for yet another possibilty. The theory suggests that the way most people perform the butterly kick ( like an arial or gymnastics butterfly) is very misleading and may misrepresent the technique which is simply to duck and kick towards the opponent. It should look more like a skip than an arial ...i dunno if this paints a picture of what I'm trying to say..anyway...good luck again, peace.

[Eddie]

Fu Pow,
Some time back, I started learning Northern Shaolin, Baji and Taiji Mei Hua Tang Lang Chuan (all from the same master) for very much the same reasons as you want to do it. I felt I was “matrure” in my CLF to not “mix” strategies etc. up, and thought it would be a good idea to get more experience in another style. I did have some Northern Shaolin training many years back, but it wasn’t anything really substantial (and different to what Im learning now).

My biggest obsticle to date, has been to drop the CLF postures and body (if you know what I mean) when I do Mantis and Baji. Those two styles have totally different ways of generating power, and at first I felt that I was way to relaxed when I did my forms (but you do chen taiji, so there should be no problem). The mantis has different stances than CLF (most of the time your back leg is bend completely) and this also got to me.

I feel that so far, baji benefited my CLF. The mantis is still new to me, and I haven’t spend enough time on it to really get the complete feel for it (although I have learned 2 sets already). Another thing that got to me with the mantis was the difference in ‘blocking’ or temporary hold between this TMH Mantis and CLF. In the beginning I kept on trying to deflect the strike in the same was as a cumlay in clf, which was not what my teacher wanted, but obviously after some time, you get the feel for it.

As for weapons, its great to get another perspective on the uses of weapons from another teacher, but I felt that there wasn’t much difference between my CLF saber form and the shaolin warrior saber I learned.

Ciao
Ed

[Shaolinlueb]

go to a modern wushu school, they have plenty of long fist :o........
not if its not run right. then they'll jsut be like ehre changchuan do it......

[WanderingMonk]

If all you want is to examine the similiarity/differences of the form, then there's is only one recommendation.

www.johnswang.com

click on the long fist section. Master Wang had included the bulk of the empty hand sets of "Shaolin Long fist system". The "shaolin long fist" system are not all shaolin forms. they are the collections of forms which made up the shaolin curriculum from Nanjing MA Institute circa early chinese republic days. These are forms which were shaolin originated/based/influenced.

No application shown, and Master Wang only walk through the forms, but you don't often get to see that many traditional forms performed from start to finish for free.

[MasterKiller]

I get a 404 on John Wang's videos...

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
I get a 404 on John Wang's videos...

what you talkin' about willis?

You can't download any video clips from the long fist page? I just download the miao dao form and started to download the lian bu form just to check if these clips are up. They are and I am on a dial-up. Try it again.

[MasterKiller]

Some of them work, but I can't get the Cha Chuan and some of the others to download. I get a 404. They just happen to be the first ones I tried, so I assumed all of them were down.

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks for the link!

Can someone tell me what "styles" of long fist these forms are from?

(BTW, I must say that what I have seen of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan I really like it most of the long fist I've seen. It seems to have quality about it that is hard to place. )

Tan Tui - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan

Si Lo Pen Da - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan

Lan Bo Chuan - Performed by John Wang

Kung Li Chuan - Performed by John Wang

Mai Fu #1 - Performed by John Wang

Mai Fu #2 - Performed by John Wang

Shi Tzi Ton - Performed by John Wang

Pao Chuan #3 - Performed by John Wang

Cha Chuan #4

Shaw Hu Yen - Performed by John S. Wang

Little Five Hands - Performed by John S. Wang

Little Five Hands (2 men form) - Performed by John S. Wang's student

Large Five Hands

Elbow Form - Performed by John S. Wang's student

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
[B]Thanks for the link!

Can someone tell me what "styles" of long fist these forms are from?

(BTW, I must say that what I have seen of the Tai Tzu Chang Quan I really like it most of the long fist I've seen. It seems to have quality about it that is hard to place. )

Tan Tui - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan


chinese muselm (probably cha)



Si Lo Pen Da - Performed by GM Hang Ching-Tan
Shi Tzi Ton - Performed by John Wang
Shaw Hu Yen - Performed by John S. Wang


Praying mantis



Lan Bo Chuan - Performed by John Wang


shaolin "dragon" form, there's some debate on this.



Mai Fu #1 - Performed by John Wang

Mai Fu #2 - Performed by John Wang
Pao Chuan #3 - Performed by John Wang



shaolin




Cha Chuan #4


chinese muslem

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Some of them work, but I can't get the Cha Chuan and some of the others to download. I get a 404. They just happen to be the first ones I tried, so I assumed all of them were down.

They were all working several months ago when it first went up. there has been some changes to the site to host some demo for the emptyflower crowd to download. You know your sig say you are a "sooner", well, you know if you snooze, you lose. A real "sooner" would have been scouting out the site months before Master Wang put it up. :D :D :D

[Robert Young]

Fu Pow,

All the forms except "Shaw Hu Yen", "Lan Bu Chuan" and "Gong Li Chuna" are all from Long Fist family in San Dong where my GM Han came from. Because Long Fist family practice several Muslim forms, so people also called us Jiao Men(Muslum) Chuan. In the past, Long Fist family practice all those forms, and those were the forms that passed down to us.

Lan Bo Chuan and Gong Li Chuan were taught in Nan Jing Central Martial Art Institute as standard meterials. This version of Tan-Tui also came from the institute. Shaw Hu Yen was from Seven Star Praying Mantis, passed down by GM Wang, Song Ting.

The materials on the lists should be categorized as Han's family forms, because that was what GM Han chosed as core empty hand forms to teach his students.

Hope this will help.

[WanderingMonk]

Mr. Young,

This is for your info.

於青島期間隨啟蒙師傅孫茂林宗師習得: 基本拳術,埋伏拳,十字趟,太祖長拳,七星刀,戚門劍,六合槍等

後又隨姜本河宗師習得:梅花拳,掃子棍,三節棍,並校正太祖長拳

至濟南期間隨常秉章宗師習得:埋伏拳,五虎群羊棍,楊家十三槍,護手雙鉤

並在他人把場"看會"了十路潭腿

由於常師祖所傳之埋伏拳動作樸實與孫師祖所傳招式截然不同,韓老十分喜愛,故將先前所學稱之一路埋伏,後來 所學稱之二路埋伏

民國十七年已優秀武藝考進了第一期南京中央國術館,並於館中擔任"少林門"長拳校正編整之工作,於館期間:

隨張本源先生習得教門長拳,包括:十路潭腿,四路查...等

隨劉崇峻先生習得四川拳術: 連步拳

隨李福臣先生習得精武會指定武術: 功力拳

隨朱國福先生習得: 三才劍

隨郭長生先生習得: 四路苗刀

隨胡桂山先生校正: 戚門劍

隨張風海先生習得: 虎尾竹節鞭

隨米連科先生習得: 青萍劍

隨紀延倉先生習得: 七星劍

隨王雲鵬先生習得: 八卦單刀

隨孫玉明先生習得: 行者棒

隨楊法武先生習得: 中國摔跤

隨楊澄甫先生習得: 太極拳

[SPJ]

Excellent posts.

I was asked to study Tai Tzu first in the '70.

Tai Tzu is considered the forefather of Long fists (Chan Quan).

Tan Tui and Zha Quan are moslem.

Tong Bei was summarized by General Han Tong. It may be originated in the Warring States 2500 years ago.

The legend has it. General Han Tong defeated Song Tai Tzu with Tong Bei. One inch longer. One inch stronger. Yi Zhun Chan Yi Zhun Qian.

Tai Tzu is the father and Tong Bei is the mother of Mantis.

Mantis is consisted of 18 Jia's boxing.

I was asked to study Tai Tzu then Tong Bei before I studied Liu He, seven stars and plum flower Tai Ji Mantis.

Shaolin Quan has its own sets.

Mantis is developed over 400 years.

Shaolin Quan started with 5 animals set 2000 years ago.

Moslem boxing influenced Northern boxing for a long time.

Gong Li and Ming Zhoung Quan are from Jin Wu Men (Chin Woo) in the "30. Hou Yeng Jia was the leader and founder.

Best of luck.

I am a big fan of CLF, too.

:)

[norther practitioner]

Fu..

What are your choices in your area?

-Tan Tui

Great thing to start out with for any LF in my opinion. Many different versions (almost as many versions as schools that teach it) but with a lot of similar movements... I need to start doing my tan tui again.

-Hong Quan

This is either a group of forms from Song shan or a system...

-Gong Li Quan

This is just one form, Chin Woo and other longfist schools have it in there system

-Mi Zong Quan

This is one of the systems I'd like to get into, has some of the funnest forms to watch, and from what I've gathered, has some great teachers around too.

-Tai Tzu Quan

Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is a system, and there are several LF schools that have different tai tzu forms in it.. as RD will tell you.

-Fan Zi Quan

I don't know much about Fan Zi except of the modern stuff I've seen here or there.

-Pi Qua Quan

Another I don't know much about, except what I've seen of the modern forms.

-Tong Bei Quan

Songshan has a couple of tong bei forms and there are several Tongbei systems, and I think a couple of other LF systems have tongbei forms in it. There was a good article a few months ago (I think it was OSO talking about it) in Journal for Asian Martial arts.

[Robert Young]

WanderingMonk,

First of all, it is really nice of you to post the information, a good post, especially for people that did not access the article here.

I believe the infomation you posted was from the article published by Adam Hsu in the magazine. Many of those were his own interpretation. Actually, we can not really tell which form came from whom mostly. GM Han seldom talked about those things. He was more interested in the skills and the moves in the forms. Adam like to reseach history by himself and seldom verified with his senior LF brothers. Many of the information mentioned in the article were not known even by GM Han's senior students. And Adam was the youngest among all. That was where the confusion came from. Story about Mai Fu in his article is very doubtful, because we have Mai Fu fifth routine also. I believe the infomation about the forms taught in NJ MA institute is correct, but Long Fist family has been practicing Cha, Hua, Hon, Pao for generations. I believe GM Han had known several forms taught in the institute before he went to the institute. He might have refined the forms in the Institute. There are many LF people in San Dong did not go to NJ MA institute that pratice those forms.

San Tai Jian is another example. It is designed by the teachers from the institute. It might have come from some particular teacher originally, but it was rearranged or even redesigned by the teachers together to make it better. The two person San Tai Dui Jian was from that effort.

On the other hand, his information is also very good in terms of who is who teaching in the Institute. Also the teachers that were teaching when GM Han was young. Other than that, readers should use their own judgement when looking at the articles from the magazines. After all, it was an article in a magazine not a history book. But, today we don't have many information like that. Any information is good for certain aspect. His effort deserves our praise. Maybe, someday we can really put all the puzzles together.

Cheers,

[Fu-Pow]

So would you say that Tong Bei and Tai Tzu are some of the older long fist styles that other long fist styles evolved from?

It sounds like Tan Tui might be the best place to start though. I'd like to have a teacher but perhaps if this form is relatively simple I could pick it up from a video.

Any suggestions on video?

(And yes....I know its not as good as learning it from a teacher!)

[MasterKiller]

Cha is so "Long-Fist" that they used it as the basis for Modern Wushu Chang Chuan sets. If you want something, go to the source.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_cha.htm

also, Flower boxing is good Long-Fist material:

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_hua.htm

[GLW]

San Tsai Jian (three powers sword or something to that effect) has an interesting history.

I am not sure exactly how it works in with the Nanjing Central Guoshu Guan..but there are some indications that it has some connections to a set done in Hsing I as well.

In addition, if it was a modern routine from Nanjing, it harkened back to older times. Not many routines from those older times are still around...and I am talking quite old. However, with those really old sets, it was not that uncommon to have them have two halves. Then you would take the first half for one person and the second for the other and have a two person set. This practice has fallen by the wayside for most traditional arts and is all but unheard of for contemporary wushu.

[Robert Young]

GLW,

> I am not sure exactly how it works in with the Nanjing Central
> Guoshu Guan..but there are some indications that it has some
> connections to a set done in Hsing I as well.

I'm not try to argue, just showing my side of reasoning.

If San Tsai Jian was taught by master Zu, Guo-Fu originally like Adam Hsu said in his article, then it is possible from Xing Yi. Because I think master Zu practiced Xing Yi. Even that, I still believe San Tsai was designed by many teachers because of the way it was designed. It covers too many usage of Jian and without any particular styles. Also, two person sparring Jian forms were not common in the past actually as I was taught. The San Tsai Jian we have today was the efforts by many great teachers. Once a form was created, it is easy to modify or even create another one with different flavor. But, the first one was not easy to come up with. Personally, I have not seen another two person sparring Jian beside San Tsai for at least thirty years. I have heard or read about other people performed other two person jian forms once or twice, but that's it. I have seen some video clips of two person sparring Jian here and there, but all of them were parts of San Tsai with some variations or different ways of practicing it. There are many two man 'exercises' on jian, but very few two man sparring Jian 'forms'.

Cheers,

[count]

I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Mr. Young. It sounds as if your saying that San Tsai Jian was later developed into a two man form? As I know San Tsai Jian, it doesn't need to be developed into a two man form since it is one form split in two as it was originally designed. I have seen teachers change it a little for various reasons. Such as swaping the back for the middle so that one side stays offensive through the middle. But the basic techniques don't change. Targets may be adjusted for the flow of the form but not the basic principles.

Kun Wu Jian is also another great 2 person fight form. I have never had a clear explaination of what style these forms originated from. Only that they are Wu Dang sword forms.

[Robert Young]

Count,

> I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Mr. Young. It
> sounds as if your saying that San Tsai Jian was later developed
> into a two man form?
You are right. What I was taught from my teacher was that San Tsai Jian was created and designed by the teachers in the Institute, both single person and two person sparring part. This is the version I believe also. But, It might have come from some teacher originally, then it was modified to become what we have today if that was the case. No one seems to know for sure about the later case.

Your Kun Wu Jian probably came from master Liu, Win Ciao. It's a different Kun Wu Jian than what LF has. The Kun Wu Jian we practice does not have two person sparring part. I believe master Liu made it two person sparring form. I remember seeing it performed in Taiwan, but it was long time ago. It is more like two man Jian exercises than two man form to me. I also believe master Liu had added a lot of his own interpretation of Jian into it. You can compare the two and tell the difference, since you have learn both of them.

Cheers,

[GLW]

No argument here at all actually.

I have learned San Tsai Jian - matter of fact, it was my first straight sword set...

I do not know if it was based on an older set and then modified, created from a number of older sets, or a brand new set created at the Nanjing Guoshu Guan... However, there have, as I said, been some connections to a routine of similar structure and name to Hsing I. How that goes...did the Hsing I folks adopt it since the 1920's or was it theirs to begin with...or was it like some sets, used widely by many styles...who knows.

The routine could be old...or it could simply be nostalgic. Some older sets, mostly now lost, had the two halves construction where you did the first half and your partner did the second to learn how to use it all. This was more true of the simpler and more direct routines. In fact, one of the first long fist barehand sets I learned a number of years ago was like that.

I suspect that if the history I learned is true, that what happened was that back in the day when routines were more direct, they did this to keep the question/answer aspect - the solutions for the moves were found in one place - type of thing. Then, as the routines got more complex or more artful (human nature is to embellish things anyway), it was either no longer the "fashion" to do this or it simply was not practical.

[count]

Right you are Mr. Young. Grandmaster Liu did teach my teacher, Sifu Tsou the sword that I know. I also learned versions of San Tsai and Kun Wu Jian in my previous Northern Shaolin program, but after learning them the way Grandmaster Liu taught my teacher, I actually feel like I can use the Jian as a weapon. Not that I walk around town with it. LOL

To take a crack at Fu Pow's inquiry, I believe Chang Chuan is more than a bridge between your systems. It is a great foundation for all systems that follow such as your chen tai chi. In my case, aspects of chen, baji, piqua, bagua and mantis can be found in chang chuan originally. If you only learn Tan Tui, Pao Chuan and Cha Chuan forms, you would have a good foundation for your other systems. That said, I sure would like to some day learn your chang chuan chin na form Mr. Young.;)

[Eddie]

Speaking of tong bei...

I once heard from someone that a real tong bei master wont teach any students who has biggish chest muscles. I know this sounds funny, but I was told so by someone who is very serious about his tong bei.
Ed

[SPJ]

LOL;

That may be true. The generation of Jin in Tong Bei (Extended Arm or back) started with the foot, translated via leg, waist, back and stored in the shoulder and released tru the hand.

There are 5 basic palms.

All the other moves are evolved from them.

You have to relax all the way. You extend far and hit long. (Fong Zhang Ji Yuan)

It is almost like a whip that lashes out. Your foot is one end and your hand is the other end of the whip or leash.

Tong Bei has big piles of Classics, poems about the moves and apps. I used to recite them or even sing songs at heart. Yap, Yap that is the "70.

The tactics and strategy encompass all the principles of Long Fists.

You relax your shoulder to be longer in your arm. Big muscles in the chest or upper arm may be in the way of your flexibility and impossible for right Jin generation which is from your whole body.

Peace.

:)

[oasis]

as MK, suggested, if you are interesting in the origins of chang quan, cha quan would be a good start. if you're curious to get a sense of what some of the material looks like before buying some of the vcds by Liu Hong-Chi, check out the cha quan here:
http://www.jiayo.com/videos/classical.html

you will see that some of the forms have been 'wushu-ized,' but there u can still appreciate the tan tui as well as road #4 (the Honghumingquan clip)

[Robert Young]

Hi Count,

San Tsai Jian is a very complicated form. Not many people can really manage it, although lots of people have learned it. If you feel you can use Jian as weapon, you should go back and serious look at it. In the Institute, it is THE sword form. That will tell you how important it is. Also, that is why it is difficult. The problem today for most people practicing it is that we learned it too easily. In Long Fist, that is usually the first sword form we learned. Many of my LF brothers thought it is a beginner's sword form and did not take it seriously. They often tried to see if they can learned something more advance. But, they totally took the wrong direction and never could get anywhere. I have seen this over and over again. This is a form designed by a group of the best masters in China at that time, including several famous styles. The treasure is already in your hand. If you can seriously analyze it, you will find treasures.

> That said, I sure would like to some day learn your chang
> chuan chin na form Mr. Young.
Chang Chuan Chin Na may not be the right term. Every styles should have some Chin Na moves. Chin Na is not only from Chang Chuan. While in the NJ Institute, GM Han was hired to do the reseach on Chin Na. He actually got paid to do that. He researched and analyzed all the Chin Na moves he can find and came up with the Chin Na we have today. Of course, with his life time teaching it, he made it better.

And, someday in the future if we meet, I'll be happy to show you some of our Chin Na applications.

[count]

Mr. Young,

The difference in learning sword from my current teacher as opposed to my previous Northern Shaolin teacher, is that forms are basically an after thought. We spent about 6 months before learning san tsai jian, learning 15 basics of offensive/defensive application. Training them with intensive stepping and two man drills and than when learning the form, identifying every basic principle from every single posture and transition. Also, learning two man form we are breaking it into levels of touch and move, to options of targets, to just move. And of course, having to adjust to different opponents sizes, strengths and speeds. I'm sure you couldn't learn a form and expect to be able to fight with a weapon and I'm also sure that san tsai jian doesn't give you a complete view of how to use sword. But if I could only learn one sword form, I think that would be it. Kun Wu Jian would be a close second.

Chin na is also a main focus of all our styles. Especially chen tai chi. If you know my teachers background with shuai chiao, praying mantis and baguazhang you can understand why. Many if the applications I learned from Chang Chuan have chin na components. But when I saw the video (John Wang posted I think?) of the two man chin na form from chang chuan, I was blown away. I realize this is a bit of a specialty form but I think it would be a great teaching tool. I would love to learn even a few pieces of it. I hope to have the opportunity to meet you some day.


Thanks for your reply,
Jeff "count" Kabaker

[Fu-Pow]

Thanks all!!

[r.(shaolin)]

"There are many two man 'exercises' on jian, but very few two man sparring Jian 'forms'."

Hi Robert,
You make some very interesting points concerning Jian contact sets. In fact contact sets in general from imperial times are now very rare. In the past these sets (traditionally called dui da or dui lian) were a more significant part of training then they are now. There are many aspects of TCM weapons usage and training that can not be experienced or, practically speaking, practiced with out them.

In past times, contact sets were guarded and generally taught to peers - these two factors contributed to the disappearance of many dui da.

r.