covering bases

[blooming lotus]

I've been considering a few profiles lately and the way people put their arsenal of styles together. I don't believe that any one art is complete and apparently neither do alot of others.

To cover all bases, 1st what do you think we need

( Ie - / hand/ foot strike/ kata or form( ?) locks/ holds / feet etc

and what styles / forms even are best with which aspects??

[CaptinPickAxe]

Striking/Standing Grappling/Ground Grappling

Striking: Muay Thai or Boxing with Kicking elements

Standing Grappling: (I know Ima catch heat for this one) SHUAI CHIAO!

Ground: Brazillian JuiJutsu...hands down.

But my cup a tea may be someone else's vingar.
I'm gonna try and get into some Caporiera when I get to MN. (RED5! I KNOW YOU HEAR ME!) That will help me get nimble and flexable...dig?

I think if you like an element of something, don't let the art discount the true quality of the move/lock/training method/etc.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Striking/Standing Grappling/Ground Grappling

Striking: Muay Thai or Boxing with Kicking elements



well why don't you just go ahead and call it shaolin........

what sort of boxing and what are we looking for in a kicking component??

[CaptinPickAxe]

Western Boxing with Muay Thai Kicks...not even close to Shaolin....

[FngSaiYuk]

I don't think that there are NO styles that are 'complete'... rather styles focus on certain particulars early on and there's an expectation of mastery before the martial artist is 'complete'

So that leads to the notion that, well, it's most likely because it's easier to train, focus and master particular aspects at a time and work from there. So really, most styles are taught in a way that focuses on particular aspects at first for the student to train in and acqure a decent degree of mastery before either being taught other aspects or the extensions of what has been already learned to become more 'complete'.

Perhaps its the notion of being a master of one vs a jack of all....

Also, really, what is the purpose of training in the art in the first place.... if it's to defend yourself, then one doesn't quite need a 'complete' art... rather, one needs basic defense training, neutralization of incoming strikes, avoidance of 'take downs', etc... and a regimen to improve fitness to be capable and alert.

If the purpose is to be able to fight, then in addition to the defense, training in 'attack' would also be needed. If the purpose is competition, then the training would depend on the rules of competition, and so on...

So really, how do you define 'complete'?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
I don't think that there are NO styles that are 'complete'...

So really, how do you define 'complete'?

name one!!??

by complete I mean all aspects covered ...I hate those "define" questions because then you get into absolutes etc

if you look at the original question , like I said, what do

you think a style needs to be covered in all bases and in which are you finding them??


CPA: I don't want to troll on your choices before everyone else has posted, but western boxing ha??

[CaptinPickAxe]

san shou is **** near complete. Minus the whole ground thing.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
[ near complete. [/B]

[red5angel]

Captnpickaxe, you let me know when you get up hear and I'll introduce you to the class!

Yep, I think a well rounded martial artist needs to address all ranges. I believe he also needs to focus on his strengths. If you can strike well, meaning quickly and powerfully, then focus on that but don't neglect the grappling aspects either.

I've personally found that quite a few arts address alot of the aspects of fighting, but I've never seen one that addresses all of them effectively.

[FngSaiYuk]

Here's something-

Is it better to actively seek out techniques from various styles and train in all of them, or to pick a style and focus on the mastery of that style?

Say 3 decades of intense, rigorous and dedicated training... Which would be better?

I'm thinking again, it depends on what you're into...

It seems like there are good styles out there that claim well rounded combat capability at high levels... but you've gotta get through the training to get to that level... or so the claims.

Then there's the jeet kune doish/MMAish philosophy of grabbing what can be learned quickly and intensley training in those techniques rather than full styles, per se...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
well why don't you just go ahead and call it shaolin........



ummm.... maybe because it's not?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Here's something-

Is it better to actively seek out techniques from various styles and train in all of them, or to pick a style and focus on the mastery of that style?

Say 3 decades of intense, rigorous and dedicated training... Which would be better?

I'm thinking again, it depends on what you're into...

It seems like there are good styles out there that claim well rounded combat capability at high levels... but you've gotta get through the training to get to that level... or so the claims.

Then there's the jeet kune doish/MMAish philosophy of grabbing what can be learned quickly and intensley training in those techniques rather than full styles, per se...

That's not really the mma philosophy. standing, grappling. that's it. could be wrestling and boxing, MT and bjj, boxing and catch, etc. It's not as....ecclectic as jkd tends to be.

[SevenStar]

Hey BL, didn't you used to talk about how complete ninjutsu was?

[IronFist]

Muay Thai/BJJ

[red5angel]

Is it better to actively seek out techniques from various styles and train in all of them, or to pick a style and focus on the mastery of that style?

Depends on your goals and it also depends on the art. Does the art itself accomplish everything you need? If so, I say focus on that. If you're looking for more of something your art doesn't have then go elsewhere for it.
There's nothing wrong with either approach, not inherently, but if your goal is to be a good all aorund fighter, and your art only focuses on striking, then your deluding yourself if you think your getting good al around skill.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
Muay Thai/BJJ Yeah, that does me a lot of good if I get attacked by some punk with a 50-lb Kwan Dao and all I have is my long spear!

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by SevenStar


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by blooming lotus
well why don't you just go ahead and call it shaolin........


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ummm.... maybe because it's not?

So? I don't get the problem.



















:D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Yeah, that does me a lot of good if I get attacked by some punk with a 50-lb Kwan Dao and all I have is my long spear!

Silly me. How could I forget that scenario?! :eek: :cool:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Hey BL, didn't you used to talk about how complete ninjutsu was?

no, I spoke about how effective it was.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
Muay Thai/BJJ

muay thai has awesome feet but I don't think i'd rate it's hands the most competitive compared to say shaolin where you have a range of fists and elements in relation to strike app etc. All opinions welcome though :)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
Here's something-

It seems like there are good styles out there that claim well rounded combat capability at high levels... but you've gotta get through the training to get to that level... or so the claims.



right. and I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I want an aspect of the style I can use now!

[CaptinPickAxe]

I don't think i'd rate it's hands the most competitive compared to say shaolin where you have a range of fists and elements in relation to strike app etc.

I'd take MT over Shaolin in a heart beat. Muay Thai is more brutal...more aggressive...more real. I agree that its hands game isn't exactly its forte, but I'd compliment it with western boxing...I'm a huge fan of boxing.

[blooming lotus]

yah. I've boxed off and on for years myself. With shaolin hands though, there are more options and in comparison, western boxing is limited, as effective each of it's half handful of apps are. Besides then you miss out on the upper body grappling type jazz. Always handy to know ;)

[CaptinPickAxe]

By "upper body grappling jazz" do you mean chin na or standing grappling? If you mean the latter then Shuai Chiao has plenty...come to think of it it has a lot of both.

[blooming lotus]

we were just talking western boxing though right??

I meant that with western hands you miss everything from locks to holds to point strikes and joint manipulation. And howmany ways over how many styles to apply that . That's a sh*t load of options you cut!

[CaptinPickAxe]

do you mean chin na ...Shuai Chiao has plenty

[Royal Dragon]

I like my Tai Tzu. It's composed of 3 main systems, the Northern Long Fist, the Short Southern Fist, and the Monkey.

The Monkey aspect of it has been called the "Ulitmate Ground and Pound" by some of it's players. I'd love to learn that someday.

[blooming lotus]

ok...

my bad

fair call I guess . I had an ex who studied muay thai a bit back, and that's why I remember its' feet, but as far as hands, do you have a clip??

[CaptinPickAxe]

I don't really care for the punches that much (although, boxing and muay thai have similarites). I feel that Boxing, the art of punching, is a staple for fighters. Everyone should at least dabble in it.

[Becca]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
right. and I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I want an aspect of the style I can use now!
If you already have a good, solid background in MA, then you should be able to get something you can use from any style without lots of years of dedication. There are also some people who are gifted enough to "get it" even without it. But I do think one must study some style or other for years. There are so many levels to knowledge that it takes that long to really understand any given style.

Having said that... I think that the most complete style would be the one that you can use right away and also works well with your body type. I guess that's why I'm not too big on "pure" liniege. If I can't make it work, it don't matter who many generations of unbroken teaching there is.

My current style is one that most every one seems to think is eccentric at the very least, and is defenantly not "pure" kung fu. But it is a very good style for me. And I feel it is a good style to start off with for both kids and adults. It does have a little for every one at an early stage in training. It also has a depth of knowledge and skillsets that can keep the serious student interested for a life-time.

[The Willow Sword]

INTENT,,,and focused mental/physical training. This is all internal mind you. we can debate whay style has the best kicks, punches throws,,locks etc. But we have all seen real fights,,been in real fights,,we know what goes down in them,,and it certainly is not INTENT,,,,when i say "intent" i mean the Will to survive the fight,,,NOT to defeat your opponent,,not to test your "skillz",,,not to waste your time in frivolous scenarios. you train in your art of combat,,you prepare yourself for that time when you will really NEED to use it.

The best art is that which focuses not on anything but the INTENT to survive,,,,anything else is just a waste of energy, time and doctor bills.

take a look at the samurai,,,they practiced in thier sword and art forms but this was not the Main central focus of thier training,,,most of the time was spent in contemplation and meditation to train the mind to otherwise,,die in combat. this has also been how militaries of today train thier soldiers(the ones who actually put thier skills to the proper use, and with the improvement of physical fitness,of course)
so who really cares about which style has the best kick or punch? i have said this time and time again,,,a punch is a punch,,and a kick is a kick. Its the intent behind the punch(any punch) and the intent behind the kick(any kick) that makes the art of combat what it is.
you guys all sit there and ramble on about ,,this style and that style,,,,,,,who do you think is going to come out on top in a confrontation TRUELY? The one who fights to test themselves or to satisfy some ego,,or the one who has got nothing to lose and the one who does not care if he/she dies in the confrontation? i say the latter,,NOT the one who is the most proficient,,because we have seen time and time again the little guy that noone notices prevail,,,not the one who is the strongest,,for we have also seen many goliaths fall under the WILL of the david types out there.

PEACE,,,TWS

[SimonM]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
san shou is **** near complete. Minus the whole ground thing.

As much as I love San Shou, the "whole ground thing" is a pretty big thing. For a well rounded curriculum, I'd advise Shaolin five animal + jiu jutsu.

[SifuAbel]

http://www.joewoodward.btinternet.co.uk/HurtsBack.wmv


"The Monkey aspect of it has been called the "Ulitmate Ground and Pound" by some of it's players."

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh ancient chinese secret............

[WinterPalm]

I think that regardless of what you study, you should do it well. As a beginner of only three years in Black Tiger, I have learned a variety of attack and defense methods. Some involving ground fighting, some kicking and punching, and some simple evasion or common sense. But to get down to it, a major focus is on striking. I think this is to do with the fact that it is the bridge between two people and if you can strike the person with enough power, you may end the fight very quickly or convince the opponent to quit. People say that almost 100% of fights go to the ground, possibly, I have no idea, but almost 100% of fights include both getting hit with punches or kicks. So if one could strike very well, the other may not have ended up entangled with the other on the ground. But to only dabble in this or that and keep moving, you arent' getting a grounding or foundation, and with the years it take to get proficent, even in boxing, our valuable time could be spent training in one art in order to really reap the benefits and since each art conveys a mindset to the practioner, you should adapt this and see if it works for you. If you disagree with it you will know from the get-go. To jump around will only leave you with a little taste and basic knowledge, and it is the basics that are most important, but I believe this is in relation to the fruits of dedicated study and advanced training that not only incorporate the basics but move beyond them.:)

[blooming lotus]

I think Becca makes a great point on body type and respectively optimal exercise , form, style an idividual app. i was onthe same tangent privately myself last night, so how about we discuss that. I don't think it's ever ( how ever obvious to long time players) been broken down like that here before, so listing request:

body type : style / form best app persuit for each strike ( kick, fist, palm, grappling, etc etc etc)

up to the mish??

[The Willow Sword]

fighting style and body type,,,,if you are small,,you should learn close quarters combat,,learn to close the distance between that of you and your opponent(and then refer back to what i posted earlier) if you have a medium sized body type,,you can just about learn anything(then refer back to what i posted earlier)
if you have a rather large frame,,you should then learn to control that strength that you have by studying the internal forms of martial arts(then refer back to what i posted earlier). ;)


Peace,,TWS

[blooming lotus]

Heyya willow:)


great advice...


can we get more specific??

[CaptinPickAxe]

As much as I love San Shou, the "whole ground thing" is a pretty big thing. For a well rounded curriculum, I'd advise Shaolin five animal + jiu jutsu.

Yes...it is a Very big part of fighting...check my initial post and you'll find I said that BJJ is the best ground game in my opinion. San Shou is great...but I meant that its ground game its lacking in...I guess I was wrong in mentioning it as complete, but IMHO its closest to complete save MMA.

[SPJ]

Bases to me are to learn how to defend your self. Or how to fend off the attacks.

If you are arguing fast punches and fast kicks, grappling or not grappling, standing or ground fighting, which is better or more important. That is a waste of time.

Qin Na or shuai Jiao is the king.

BJJ/MT is the king.

Shaolin is the king.

Well.

Before you learn how to beat someone, you have to learn how not to be beaten or how to take the beatings.

You may brag how fast and how hard your punches and kicks, how proficient your grappling and ground techniques. You know what. Your opponent will meet you where you are not good or not prepared.

The question is always that do you know how to avoid or fend off fast punches and kicks. Do you know how to defuse a grab or anti- Qin Na?

Do you know how to defend a ground technique?

If you only know how to attack or set up an attack, and know nothing about how to defend your center line or foot work?

Tiao, Gua, Guo, Luo, Lan, Jie, Cai, etc.

Grappling is too rigid. A sudden movement from the opponent such as a Tai Ji'er, your wrist is injured.

TCMA focuses on Diau or hook such as Mantis hand. It is a temporary restrain. no hard grab.

You practice good foot work such as hurricane kick to avoid a lot of ground technique.

While you are grabbing my arms and body, I hit your groin with my knee, I bang my head to your nose--etc. Because your hands are busy, and your vitals are exposed.

So what is your base?

Study all sorts of attack?

Or all sorts of defense against attack?

You punch, punch and punch high. I Tiao, Tiao and Tiao.

You punch me high, I lean my head back and I kick you low.

You knee strike me. I push your knee away and hit your chest with my shoulder and hip (Kao and Kua).

You high kick me. I go low and hit your groin or knee or sweep your supporting legs.

Name an attack move. There will be many and many ways to defend and counterattack that move.

So how do you study?

Attack high, low, mid, left or right in a combo or in a series.

Or fend off the first move and institute your countermove.

TCMA are at the latter.

[Gangsterfist]

I disagree with some of the things being stated here on this thread. There are complete systems out there. If someone is no good at their style of kung fu or not a good fighter its their fault not the systems fault. Its the practitioner's fault. If some muay thai guy gets beat up on the streets, its because he is not a good fighter, its not that muay thai is a bad system. Your training should be live and cover all ranges of combat (ie long, closing the gap, trapping, clench, standing grappling, and ground). Some systems will stress one thing, like trapping and striking, ground and shoot takes downs, chin na and hip tosses, or long range with kicks. Just because one system will be more effective in different ranges does not make it incomplete. That mindset will get you no where fast.

I hear some CMA guys always saying how karate over commits their attacks and that they could use it against them. Well, since I have taken karate before, I can tell you they train things around this. The reverse punch is pretty committed, but they train to redirect or attack again if the strike misses or is blocked.

There are many things and ways you can train all of this. Train every range of combat, train gauging, train how to flow from each range, train creating the bridge, train chin na and anti-chin na, train ground range, use sensitivity, understand the basics and then apply all of what you know into your system. Just because TKD does not have any ground fighting techs really does not mean a TKD guy could not train those aspects within their art.