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Mtal
09-17-2004, 07:50 AM
Hi, I am looking into getting into internal martial arts. Could anyone recomend a school in New York City? I do like the internal aspects, health, but when it comes down to it, I would like a school that is into the martial aspects as well (plus that is the fun stuff, and is alway good to know). Please let me know when and where, and info on how the class is would be great.

Actually I am probably leaning toward Hsing. So if someone knows a good place to learn that, please let me know. I do like Tai Chi and Ba gua too, if there is a good teacher out there, cannot pass up on the opportunity.

Thank you.

count
09-17-2004, 11:13 AM
Try Chen Xiao Ping for bagua. You can get contact info through this member here.

Blacktaoist (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=7354)

Buddy
09-17-2004, 01:22 PM
Frank Allen, Tom Bisio, David Bond Chan

count
09-17-2004, 03:02 PM
Li Tai Liang, William CC Chen, Novell Bell, C.K. Chu...
Man, New York seems like a great town. :p

Josh Vogel
09-17-2004, 04:18 PM
Hi,

Frank Allen's website is www.wutangpca.com . He teaches Pakua, Hsing I, Tai chi, chi kung and meditation as well as his "Fighting for health" system which is basically boxing/ kickboxing. He is a great guy and a great teacher and I've found him very accomadating as far as teaching what aspects one wants to focus on of the internal martial arts.

I've also heard great things about Blacktaoist, especially fighting wise. His site is www.Blacktaoist.com .

Good luck!

Regards,
Josh

emre
09-18-2004, 04:42 AM
AFAIK Frank Allen only teaches the 5 fists in Xingyi and short forms in Taiji, so his focus is mainly on Bagua.

Josh Vogel
09-18-2004, 03:31 PM
Hi,

He also teaches two person Hsing I set, linking form, another form, and some of the animals of Hsing I. I'm not sure all of the animals he teaches. I will agree that I think his main thing is bagua, though.

Regards,
Josh

cerebus
09-18-2004, 04:52 PM
For one of the best out there check out Tom Bisio at www.tombisio.com . Tom's a former president of the North American Tang Shou Tao Association and studied under both Vince Black and Hsu Hong Ji.

He teaches both Hsing-I and Bagua.

BAI HE
09-18-2004, 07:40 PM
Word of advice-

Everyone want's Xingyi and falls in love with BaGua.

Happened to me and scores of others....

I've seen some clips of BT (Novell) and his classmates, they can fight and it's obvious that the the gung-fu they are teaching is the way.

I've heard David Bond Chan has exceptional Xingyi and that William CC Chen's TaijI may be one of the only transmissions woth getting, period.

cerebus
09-18-2004, 08:20 PM
Heh, heh! Not me bud! I wanted the Hsing-I & I still love it!Of course I love the Bagua too, but we all have our favorite "children" even if we don't admit it often. :D :D

Ray Pina
09-21-2004, 06:16 AM
Check out my master, master David Bond Chan. The focus is on fighting, but the health is built in: http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/

A champion Tai Boxer visited us last weak; he still had his hands wrap and sporting the gold after the fighting .... it was held up the block and he wanted to check the school out.

This was his report posted on Bullshido.com:

Quick background: I've been studying MA's for about 15 years or so, 12 of which have been deveoted almost entirely to Muay Thai and Boxing (with a little submission grappling thrown in).

I went with Djimbe and Tigerfly to see Master Chan's class after fighting on Friday night. I was introduced to Master Chan who is an extremely nice guy. Very respectful and a great sense of humor. He worked with me to the side of his class for a little bit to show me some of what he teaches is and how he defends/counters boxing and kicks.

My observations:

It is important to state that the few drills that I performed with Master Chan were prearranged drills. We each knew what the 'attacker' was going to do first, though we each reacted (countered) without it being 'prearranged'. Also, we only did about 3 or 4 drills for about 10 minutes. I had just finished fighting in the "Mayhem on Mulberry Street" Muay Thai event, and I needed to get back to the arena to meet with my coaches and teammates.

Master Chan showed me some punch defenses. Master Chan is blazingly fast. I threw a punch and he slipped my punch and had clocked me in the jaw before it had registered that he had moved.

It was very obvious to me that he was holding back. When he hit me, he never followed through, but stopped as his strike as he placed it. Despite the fact that Master Chan was not following through on his strikes, I could feel the power behind them. We all know the difference between someone striking you correctly where it feels "solid" vs. when someone hits you wrong and it feels weak and soft. Despite Chan holding back, you could feel how solid the strikes were.

Also, when he was performing counter strikes vs. my boxing, he repeatedly was hitting the same spot on my arm over and over. Very precise, and he successfully "frogged" my arm each time.

Master Chan invited me to throw roundhouse kicks at him. He had an interesting defense where he angled his arm in such a manner that my kick kinda "slid" up his arm into his other hand to make for what felt like a very soft block. It felt like I was kicking a pillow, even though I was laying into the kicks pretty hard. (not full power, but about 70%). I only moved him with one kick.

Now, obviously my experience with Master Chan is very limited. We weren't going hard, We weren't doing anything "for real" We were just playing. What I can say is that my impression is that Master Chan is amazing. I have worked with many talented martial artists over the years, and I really feel that Master Chan is legit, and that what he is teaching is legit.

Buddy
09-21-2004, 08:21 PM
And that my friends is what I'm talking about. Djimbe wanted me to school a young MMA guy but I'm nowhere in Mr. Chan's league. We could have hurt him but that just sucks. My ability or that of my students doesn't allow this sort of sublety and sophitication. This is the mark of a true adept.
My senior student would have damaged him badly (and wanted to, much to my chagrin). The Night Ranger is a small guy but a natural bodybuilder. The other guy was 18 and a buck fifty. TNR is a (ex) marine, 34, 195. Not good. TNR is on Cape Cod if you want to study with him. He has my endorsement. And from all I have heard of of Chan Laoshi, you could not go wrong by studying at his school. BTW Djimbe and Tigerfly are good people.

Goldenfist
09-22-2004, 07:23 AM
The place to go for traditional Taiji with great classes is the William C C Chen school - that school has the best training program anywhere. I know cause I've been in the ring with his students to know what works. His son Max and daughter Tiffany are carrying on the tradition as great san shou fighters. My friends go there and they tell me that. Me and my friend have been to alot of schools already and now are ready to go to the best so we're getting our act together so that we can move into the city soon to take classes there. Check it out www.williamcchen.com

BAI HE
09-22-2004, 06:17 PM
The account with DBC doesn't surprise me. People unfamiliar with BGZ or XY think they are evasive or soft arts.

I think of them as direct, manipulative arts with an emphasis on "manipulative".

I haven't seen anything in the MT cirriculum that differs from BGZ. The approach, strategy and training of the ideal attributes differs, but little else outside of the clinch.

I've seen Laoshi (Luo Dexiu) do some things in the "clinch" that were simply astounding (making larger man dance and yelp).

For the MT guys the clinch is rather complicit and within the rules and strategy. Both guys are tryng to to hand in there and further there agenda and strategy.

I will say that I wholeheartedly admire the conditioning of the MT school and the impartial post that kicked off this thread.

emre
09-23-2004, 10:19 AM
Does anyone know where Mr. Chan's Song Style Xingyi comes from?

Ray Pina
09-24-2004, 08:12 AM
I'm sure my spelling is wrong, but Master (grandmaster to me) Sau (sp?). He credits this man for most of his internal.

My master also had an earlier Hsing-I sifu, Mr Kenny Gong. But in reality, my master trained there and then flew in Grand Waster Wong from China and put him up in a hotel for several years (my master was a businesman at the time). He also trained privately with master Sau and a Master Lui, who is known for his pole: http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_feilungfumun.html

It is the training and principles he received from Grandmasters Wong, Sau and Lui that make up my master's own style, E-Chuan.

Goldenfist
09-24-2004, 10:15 AM
Sorry man, I messed up the spelling of William C C Chen's school website, it should be: www.williamccchen.com

http://williamccchen.com/video.htm

ekaltenborn
10-13-2004, 07:31 PM
I concur with goldenfist. I do t'ai chi with one of master william cc chen's students in Columbus Ohio and couldnt be happier. I have found it to be functional as well as easy to learn. My experience is limited (about 3 years) But having gone there after several years in mantis, it supplements my mantis quite a bit!!!

Goldenfist
10-15-2004, 11:50 PM
Good to hear more about Master Chen's schools. The more I research, the more I know he's the best teacher around, Do all his schools have the same program? My friend in OH is thinking about taking up Tai Chi in a Chen school. Any feeback is appreciated.

stonecrusher69
10-20-2004, 08:16 PM
I was looking at master Willliam CC Chen's website and saw his daughter with boxing gloves on.Does anyone know if she practices Tai chi? also does anyone know whatmaster Chen's self defense/san shou class like? Do they use traditional tai chi application?I heard they teach like western boxing there at the school and not real tai chi..

Goldenfist
10-21-2004, 09:55 AM
I never heard that he taught boxing but I have not had the honor to study there yet cause I work the graveyard shift at my job and too much responsibilities after work for now. But are you kidding? William C. C. Chen is Tai Chi. My friends been following this man. He's been fighting and teaching fighting since the 1950s and he fought all style fighters, he became professor's prize student is also why he never went anywhere else. He is totally Tai Chi plain and simple. His students demonstrated some moves at push hands competitions and we thought they were good people and tough martial artist. Don't fighters have to use different gloves for different fights? They do all kind of kicks and take downs. No matter what style of fighting, when you fight, you gotta punch. Don't you?

stonecrusher69
10-22-2004, 06:27 AM
I did not mean Willian CC Chen people western box in a traditioanl way,but they seem to have adopted a lot of that into their Tai Chi.I have a video tape of Bob Klein Who I beleive is a student of William CC Chen and on the tape he does boxing tpye moves but calls it tai chi.It's the worst tape I've seen on Tai Chi so far.

yangchengfu04
10-22-2004, 06:46 AM
If I were to do Tai Chi Chuan in NY it would be with this guy. I have seen him in person and believe that he has a high level of skill:

http://www.nytaichi.com/contents.htm

Goldenfist
10-23-2004, 12:34 AM
Yes, there are alot of people out there teaching tai chi allright and I hear what your saying. Thats why I'm waiting until I can get a job during regular hours so that I can study with the a real master everyone knows, don't want to get stuck with someone who talk about fighting. Some people can study with a real master for a few months, then put out a ad somewhere or webpage and suddenly they are a teacher, they even write books and make videos and there are stories out there about people buying into stories then years later, the results are like the video you are talking about. My friends spent a ton of money going here and there so now I learn from their experience. Don't rush into classes because someone is a good salesman, it'll be a a very high price for you in the end cause you won't learn martial arts. You'll just learn alot of different forms and not know what fighting is. This Bob Klein done any fighting, never heard of him or his students really.

stonecrusher69
10-23-2004, 09:37 PM
Bob Klein has a school some where in Long Iland.He has put out videos on Tai Chi and some other stuff.My friend has one of his video.He's a strange guy.on the video he playing with a big snake and doing thai chi.

Goldenfist
10-24-2004, 12:13 AM
Using snakes in his classes its not for me. What's his point? Hope he has plenty of liability insurance. That's a new one.

Goldenfist
10-24-2004, 12:12 PM
I just read that Master Chen's daughter Tiffany and son, Max not only do Tai Chi, they teach Tai Chi. They just came back from giving a dynamite workshop in Chicago just last weekend. Tiffany is Competitor of the Year for all the years of push hands.

http://williamccchen.com/articles.htm
http://williamccchen.com/fyi.htm

Watch the video clips of their students at push hands competitions and san shou competitions. What's great is that those are real action clips, not demos
http://williamccchen.com/video.htm

Ray Pina
10-26-2004, 08:51 AM
Just because something LOOKS like boxing to you, and they are wearing boxing gloves, doesn't mean it's western boxing.

Save all the typing and just go look for yourself. Also, I recomend paying my master's school a visit ...he also teaches taiji during the day. He's at 161 Bowery on the top floor.

stonecrusher69
10-28-2004, 12:00 AM
Who is your master?

Goldenfist the video I saw was a few yrs ago I don't remember the reason for the snake.anyway,he was not using any tai chi techn I could see.

Ray Pina
10-28-2004, 10:58 AM
Master David Bond Chan
http://www.chan-internal-martial-arts.com/

stonecrusher69
10-29-2004, 09:29 AM
How long have you been training there? Also, E-Chaun I hear it similar to Hsing-Yi. can you tell me a little baout the training there.Thx

Ray Pina
10-29-2004, 11:11 AM
I wrote a bunch of stuff but deleted it. Too much typing turns people away and they call B.S.

The best thing to do is stop by. He's very willing to show and play. At 63, he will never pass you off to a student. He'll play with you right there in front of everybody ... this never ceases to amaze me. And is another reason why I have to get my a$$ in gear and pick up my training. I have to stop losing tournaments and looking sloppy and try to resemble this man's stuff in some way.

I'm holding off of fighting for about a year, until I can represent E-chuan in some way. He's been on my case about going out on my own since day one, and now I understand why. There is a difference to what he does. The over riding principle at his school is this: Don't go out to fight ... Go out to BEAT somebody.

stonecrusher69
11-02-2004, 10:30 PM
sounds great!! yes I will stop by your school.I love to meet your sifu and check out the class.What day is the best time to come if any?

Ray Pina
11-03-2004, 07:22 AM
Tues. and Fri. night, from 7:30 to 10:30. If you can, come a little early on Fri.

He aslo has day time taiji classes which have been pretty much ground fighting classes lately, how to deal with the shoot, locks, throws, etc.

bamboo_ leaf
11-03-2004, 08:05 AM
(Don't go out to fight ... Go out to BEAT somebody.)

yep, no ego there.

Ray Pina
11-03-2004, 10:35 AM
It's the best way to sum up the attitude. My master admits, it doesn't "work" well in English, but it remains.

"Fighting" by its definition implies a struggle, trading blows, etc. This is like the guy who wins the fight with broken ribs and missing two front teath..... who cares about the other guy? Even if he feels better after the fight, as long as you don't hurt me. That's a win.

This attitude may also come from my master's love of weapons. You poking 2 holes in me and I poking 5 holes in you .... is that a win?

No, you may call it ego, but it is what I, as a student, am striving for. At 30 years old do you think I can match the 20 year old San Da fighter by training and fighting the same way? By trading blows with him?

I'm taking a different aproach and it starts with a different mindset. I am older, weaker and slower than the other guy ... But I will fight him. By Sept.'s Sand Da Super fights I'm hoping to bring a skill set to beat him.

That's all it is in a nutshell. I already know how to fight. Now I want to be able to aproach the well-trained big guy with the same calmness and confidence I do to training partners that don't fight. The way I can take a hobbyist martial artist and throw him from wall to wall, that's not fighting. That's playing. And if I wanted to get serious it would be a beating..... I want that against the good guy.

Not saying it is easy or achievable with the time I can put it, but that is the goal and the aim. As the person who does enter the ring to fight, I prefer this mindset over the, well, good luck, keep your hands up, one.