Politics, Clans and false faces

[mantis7]

I would like to say right off the bat that I hold no affiliations with LKW or Pel...

But what I have been reading as of late that there seems to be some kind of power play going on. The Gung Fu world is full of groups who will jockey for top position when it comes to legitimacy and what is going on is nothing different.

The importance of pictures to any particular system is that of a historical nature nothing more. Anyone can posses a picture of a grandmaster, master or sifu but this does not bestow upon them the flag of being a great sifu, great fighter, or direct descendent.
The importance of the picture or pictures is to remind us of the standard we all desire to attain. The picture also reminds us who created the system...

Now to address the ideo of a pure system. Everything in life moves forward and does not exist In a void. Any Gung Fu master or creator of a system set about creating a more dynamic system to either suit their abilities, skill level, fix flaws that they may perceive to exist or for may other reasons. If you believe that a system can exist and not change over the expanse of 300 years they you are very foolish.
those systems will die out due to their inability to adapt to new combat skill, new developed tactics, meeting new races and dealing with their strong or weak points and so on.

The reason praying mantis is so combat efficient is that it can be adapted to most body types, situations and still remain fluid while adapting to the changes.

People argue over how many forms should represent the original system, what is the correct amount attributed to the grand master or what is purely mantis is also foolish. This should be left up to the historians. This is a point of history but gung fu, the systems that survive, grow change and are influenced by those who study it. A form is nothing more than prearranged movements from the defining core of mantis. So the amount of forms in not all that important. If you want to verify if the form is a mantis form or not just take a look at the movements and see if it reflects the core concepts of the system.

People will influence the system that they train in and most desire to leave their mark on said system. They may also want to mark or be able to identify their particular family members by creating forms that only their family possess. Does this make those forms any less different? No, it does not it just becomes a mark of family honor.

Now on to adaptation. If mantis was to take on shoot wrestling, blade fighting, the strong kicks from Thai boxing or the bridging hands from Hung gar would it still be mantis. Yes, it would be. Would it be transformed yes it would be but it will still be mantis as long as it keeps the core of the mantis system intact while allowing the new tech to be synthesized properly into the system.
If this was not true then why is Mantis made up of so many different systems.

Please take the same position as WL took and look to always better mantis. If WL felt that way that many feel today then mantis would have never been created and we would all be studying what ever system he was learning at the time.

Pictures, lineage, who taught who, politics and any of this other mess does not make a great martial artist. All these things may grant you some form of face but it is given more credit than it should be. IF you want to give some credit base it on skill, knowledge, tactical ability, the ability to transfer this knowledge from teacher to pupil and so forth. Define a man by his action and not by his possessions, connection or things of that nature.

The only way to determine who is the best is to fight which is a shame but a reality. The only reason why people can claim this or that or that they are the best around and have the purest most effective version of the system is because they can no longer be called on their own bull****.

Well, enough of the ranting from me...

[MightyB]

I've been lurking alot lately (some downtime at work) and what I've found on this forum is just plain ugly. I don't get it, not long ago I was the solo troll of the PM board, now the PM board is filled.

It's pretty much been a contest of "my pee pee is bigger than your pee pee because I'm the sole heir of the 7*PM system. Now all of you bow down to me." And for what? Seriously... what do people expect to gain from all of this internet posturing? There's no real fame, fortune, or anything that you can get from this.

Another thing that I've found really disturbing is this insinuation that 7* from HK is some kind of b_astard mutant creation that's not worthy of calling itself Praying Mantis. And to all of you asserting this... shame on you! I think you'll are using it as a crutch for doing poor kung fu. You see posed pictures from some other region of china, and you make assumptions. Or worse yet... excuses... excuses for laziness, poor posture, or your own mutations.

My Sifu used to use concrete examples to help us with our practice. This is an example he told me years ago. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Kurt, that stance is no good. It's too high. When you demonstrate your forms, you must think of your stances like driving cars. Right now you're driving a Ford festiva." He then imitated my high/lazy stance. He dropped down a bit and said, "this is a cruiser, a luxury car like a BMW. But you're young." He dropped lower and held a stance every bit as low as the one on that photo that's been circulated on this board as an example of a difference of stances. He dropped into that low stance and said, "your young, you should be driving a Ferrari. This is a Ferrari." He then did something that most can only pay lip service to on this board. He did a form holding that low stance at full speed at full power. It was awesome.

Now, you all know you should be driving Ferraris. The question is, why aren't you? And don't blame it on some BS that somehow HK 7* doesn't do that because it does. Stop making excuses and drive Ferraris.

[mantis7]

Good reply... but just a note on stances. You can do low stances and or high stance but do you know the diffrence when doing them in a form or in a real combat situation? ( this is not an attack on you B just a general statement). When applying jointlocks ( chin na) low stance or correct postures is important.
When throwing strikes, throws, or what have the proper posture is correct but most of the low stances down in forms for show will not work in a real combat situation.

Try dropping in to a low stance while fighting and not getting a full balst shin kick in the face. Or try throwing a power punch from a horse stance then try doing the same stance from posture ie boxing stance. Notice the diffrence between power and the bodies ability to link and deliver more power due to the joints being able to flow isntead of staying in a static position.


Stop using forms as tool to display prowess. Forms are just forms a boxer does not think he is well versed in his skill only based on his shadow boxing form. It is just a tool!

You may have a beautiful horse stance but this doesnt mean you can fight and use your gung fu skills to its fullest.

more rants lol

Victor

[MightyB]

Again, what I was talking about is forms performance. Forms and their relationship to fighting is a thread that's done to death on the main forum.

But I'll say this. My Sifu allows a person to attack him three times. Again, I'll use myself as an example... All this happens really fast... If I attack my Sifu, he starts in the mid height range. He absorbs checks the distance and settles slightly lower. I attack again... same thing, but he gets lower, real low, with a mean look on his face (because he's kind've grinning) and he's ready. I've been in long enough to know not to attack the third time because he's coiled and ready to explode back. But he does spar with a pretty low stance.

Actually it varies... has to do with "so fat, bo fat, sun yin". (phonetic spelling)

[mantis7]

B :D

well ill relay some of my own experiences... I studied under Sifu Raul Ortiz for quite a while....

Alot of people either have a good opinion of him and some a bad opinion of him....

I trained with and he ruled with an iron fist. He was tough, nasty and someties down right mean but at the same time he was very caring and often went out of the way to help his students.

Alot of people didnt have good things to say about him because he would call them on their ****. He didnt care to him the proof was in the skill. He would fight at the drop of the dime or get in someones face and wouldnt regret his actions.

Back then I couldnt appreciate this kind of personality. I felt it was my duty to try and keep things calm but thinking back boy was I wrong. He was right to do this because it pushed the fakes further back to the fringe of martial arts society.

Also when it came to him training me he was relentless and inforgiving. he pushed me beyond my limits and often left me emotionally frazzled. When we fought he didnt take it easy on me and forced my skill to increase in order to maintain my safety. If I didnt want to get hurt or hit I would have to faster, stronger, and smarter than him and this was a hard thing to do.

Alot of people say that he has calmed down as of late but when speaking to him you can still hear that fire burning in the pit of his stomach.

I rather deal with this kind of sifu than a mouth boxer. At least with him you know where you stand and there is no politics. You wither fight hard, train hard and do what you need to do or go away. The motuh boxer you always have to worry about him being worried that you are getting better than him thus becoming a threat to him, him playing political games instead of bringing you to the proper level of skill, or any other possible senario.

I rather get my ribs broken, which happened, then have a teacher who only says yeah yeah do this and you will be great just like me.

The proof is in the pudding folks but in order for you to know the flavor you got to get a little dirty.

Victor

now this is my personal take on my experience on with Sifu Ortiz and I hold him in the highest reguards now. Others may have had a diffrent experience and this does not take away from that.
Also he is a good man but an intense one as well.

[bung bo]

first off i want to say good thread. i think some of the things that Pel posts are informative, but the shanghai crowd's attitude is getting a bit old. it just seems like all that stuff is one big ****ing contest. they talk a lot and never post their material for the rest of the mantis community to see. i would like to see it.

mantis7--i like your sifu's attitude. he sounds like he was dedicated to teaching the real deal. i don't think there is anyhting wrong with calling people on their BS. my sifu used to share space with a TKD guy. charged for everything-uniform, belt, belt testing, etc. this guy was really raking it in. my sifu told me their curriculum was...really crappy. i hate stuff like this. this guy's students were shelling out a lot of cash and they thought they were learning how to fight when they weren't. what a fraud. that really sucks. these people just mess stuff up for everybody. so i say, call out the BS, and "push the fakes further bak to the fringe of martial arts society" as you put it.

[sayloc]

Ther are a couple of groups on this forum who have bashed thier ex style or sifu's. I dont understand why. I wouldnt think an experienced instructor would do this. Seems shallow.

If they found something they like about thier teacher enough to stay with them for 5 or ten years that person must have done something for them. I think it shows the students true nature when they start bashing when they leave.

You have to understand that eventually you may out grow your current teacher or your particular interests will change over time. (This often happens to part time teachers who have to work full time and teach on thier own free time and can only train with a teacher once in a while, even if they are getting thier most valuble lessons as they teach). This doesnt mean this teacher is bad just trying to feed his family.

And then you have the full time guy who is just lazy, stingy or racist and wont pass the info on to non chinese.

But you have stayed with these people for a long period of time for some reason. Why bash them. If they are bad people it just brings you down to thier level.

When ever my instructors begin to hold back with no explantion or my interests change to something he does not know, I tell my old teacher why, keep in contact with them and still consider them one of my teachers and find a new one. If they cant handle that then I just cut all ties, but try not to bash.

Bung Bo

I am with you I dont agree with the tai kwon do guy ripping people off, with all of their contracts and belts it takes a lot of money from my pocket. It is not only tae kwon do. I have seen many CMA schools with very weak curriculums as well.

You have to understand that the "soccoer Moms" want little Billy to be a "Black Belt". Even if it does cost them $4000.00 over two years and he is only 7. It helps her social standing among the other "Soccer Moms". Same goes for the dad at the sports bar "watching" sports.

Some day I may just be drug down to their level and be able to buy a nice BMW teaching the CMA. I could have my "Black Belts" wash it.

[MightyB]

Luckily I've only been lurking on-line for the past month, so I haven't seen most of the mud-slinging and ex sifu bashing that Sayloc has described.

But I have seen this trend to try to classify 7* from LKY as something as an oddity, and quite frankly, I don't like it. And that's mainly to the assertion of supposable high stances which, at least in my experience, shouldn't be there. High stances may be a mutation adopted by some, but at least in the way I shown, the stances should be low.

A note on Sayloc mentioning that tastes change... he's right. I was alot like the "fighters" on these boards. But, recently I've had a change of heart. I'm starting to find this ultimate warrior fight mentality a little irrational and slightly paranoid. It's kind've like those non-military people who hide out in the woods playing war games preparing for WWIII. I don't think it's wrong to be prepared for a worse case scenario, but obsessing to the point that they're actually wishing for it is a bit insane.

Also, too much "hard" isn't good. You should be "hard" in the beginning, but "soft" with age and wisdom. It isn't all about beat'n some a$$. That's too "hard". It works for awhile, but it's too "hard".

Lett's face it, as westerners, we don't naturally move like kung fuers. That's why we need to learn forms. They teach you to move like a kung fuer. I find that Judo and kickboxing are easier to learn because they are a little more western. But they also aren't as dynamic as kung fu.

You see the lack of effort on learning forms when you watch kung fuers spar. More often than not, they kind've do a hybrid tae kwon do-ish thing. Unfortunately it's because they had some initial success in their early MA careers using their hybrid and gave up on learning real kung fu while still taking the classes and telling people that they're learning kung fu. It happens, heck, I was one of them. It's an easy trap to fall into. It's scarry to use kung fu in a sparring match when you have an over inflated ego, because, like everything else, it takes practice to get right. And, when you're just learning, you'll get beat alot, and alot of times you'll get beat by newbies. That is until you get it, then you'll whip some a$$, but how many of us can lay our egos on the line so that we can actually learn? You may think that you can, but be honest, do you want to risk losing to a newbie? I can now, but it's grudgingly given because I have a big ego.

A note about low stances and fighting... I'm one of the few here that's been on a full contact mat. I know what it is to do san shou. If I tried using that garbage against my sifu, my balls would be flat and I'd possibly be dead. I'm talking specifically about trying to shin kick his head when he drops into a low fighting stance. He used to teach a technique specifically for that instance. He stopped because too many students were crushing their training partners go-nads. It's all in the fundamentals.

Darn, I wish I didn't move so far away from my school and my Sifu. I'll probably never finish. But, life happens.

[Brad]

Lett's face it, as westerners, we don't naturally move like kung fuers.
Heh, most easterners don't either :p