Thank you Hungfutkune and Wang Rui Xuan for an excellent idea for a post

[mantis7]

First thing I would like to say is do not let tradition blind intellect, reason and common sense!

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hungfutkune Quote

"After doing my own research on German Bai Lung, I was quite disappointed to find out that he actually teaches and is considered a sifu. I can accept these type of mistakes and comments coming from one who is new to the Kung Fu world and is still learning, but not from someone who is supposed to be an example to other people."
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Now I would like to comment on this statement...

First off a Martial arts teacher is a person first and foremost.
Their behavior, norms, moral and ability to acomplish task are based on their limits and human nature.

now for those out there who believe that a Sifu should be a Budda, spiritual person or what have you, please take your heads out of the clouds. They are human beings and may have morals, ideas, cultural beliefs and mannerisims that you do not agree with. This does not take away or add anything to their martial skill.
If someone is a Sifu, all it means is that they have the ability to teach someone martial skill. Now if you want to learn morals from them, ettiquette or what have you then find someone who posses the mentioned qualities. To say someone is not a good Sifu because of the way they behave is a bunch of bull****. IF he can fight, teach, train a person to high levels of skill his character is a secondary thing. This secondary thing is an idea based in comfort. IF you want to live the idea of the kung fu movie whichis of a teacher helping you learn how to fight, kill, defend the weak or what have you all the while helping you attain some kind of spiritual enlightment then so be it. If a certain person does not meet your idea ( abstract) of a sifu this does not take away from their ability. There are teachers who some will perceive as being a good guy and those who you will see as a bad ass. In this situation the good guy doesnt always win. Usually its the bad ass who looks to fight, talks alot of trash and backs up his word that tends to have the better skill. This is in part that he looks to fight and thus hopefully raising his skill level. the good teacher does not wish to fight and rarely doesnt which in turn may dull his skill because it is not tested.

A sifu should be based on his quality of teaching, level of skill and morals should only be brought in when it concerns your own personal desires or qualities sought when looking for a teacher. I am very sure many of us have know Sifus who are big mouths, ******* or what have you yet they their fighting skill is beyond reaproach. If you are going to come with the arguement that oh they should also posses a certain type of attitude, humbleness, meekness in order to be a sifu I will say that is a bunch of bull****. That is a personal belief and should not be a blanket belief across the board. A martial arts sifu is a person who teaches COMBAT plain and simplie! If they happen to be a good person who can help you become a better person then that is an added bonus. but as logical people we direct our own lives and know what roads we should travel and how we want to carry ourselves when traveling these roads....

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Wang Rui Xuan Quote

"Getting back on track here I would certianly be interested in hearing what your valuable thoughts are on the proper approach/methedology one should take in attempting to compare two mantis branch family systems"
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Well to comapre and contrast anything one should first look at the common ground shared .. If the core material, the very essences of the two family branches are similar or mirror images then that is where the jouurney begins.
See where they are the same. this will make it easier to determine where they are diffrent. You take these diffrences and disect them.
Are they assimilated into the system well or are they thrown in with no real meaning?

Are these diffrences effective or are they only family/clan markers?

Now look to the added materials influence on the family's system?

Is the system no longer a mantis core system?

Did these added materials increase the effectivenenss of the system?

Is the added material a boon to the Mantis system and something you may want to add to your own family system?

Is it just for show or is their more meaning between the addition?

Is it paying homeage to the center ideal of mantis?

These are just some of the questions on should ask... If something is diffrent one should question it but if it is added skillfully and does not detract from the system then it should be a mote point. A teacher should always be looking to imporve his/her own personal skill as well as the systems over all effectiveness. If you try to stand still when the tidal wave of progress is coming at you... you will drown and be wiped away.

when it comes down to it all you can say is if it is effective. You can say ohhh I dont think its mantis because it wasnt created by one of the great masters. Remeber at one point in time they were all students just like all of us.

If it works use it and find a way to make it meld with our current skills and tech. Once it becomes a part of us then it is becomes apart of our systems.

Also remeber that no matter how hard you train sooner or later Mantis is no longer mantis but a hybrid because everyone has a certain way of moving and the system over time becomes indivdual. The forms could be the same, the tech could all be the same but in the end it is the indivdual who brings out the true jewel that is mantis..

Victor

[Hungfutkune]

Mantis7

I would have to respectfully disagree with you on some of your comments. (ALL THE REMARKS IN QUOTATION ARE DIRECT QUOTES FROM MANTIS7)

"First off a Martial arts teacher is a person first and foremost.
Their behavior, norms, moral and ability to acomplish task are based on their limits and human nature."

Yes they are a person first and foremost, but if they want to or not they are regarded as a role model to their students. Many younger students will try and copy the behaviour of those they see as role model. If a teacher is known as a guy that goes out, gets drunk on the weekends and picks fight with people, what is to say that the students would try and eminate thier teacher and do the same.

"To say someone is not a good Sifu because of the way they behave is a bunch of bull****. IF he can fight, teach, train a person to high levels of skill his character is a secondary thing."

Actually a good sifu will not only know how to teach but should also be of good character. If not he will develop students of ill character. Though I hate to make this comparison, look at the Kobrai Kai school in the Karate Kid movie. Yes it was only a movie but I have seen instructors like this, and I have seen his students turn out to be nothing but trouble makers and street hoods. With lack of respect for other styles and people.

"Usually its the bad ass who looks to fight, talks alot of trash and backs up his word that tends to have the better skill."

I totally disagree with your point here. In my experience it is usually the quiet guy that is not known as anybody that we should be more afraid of. The louder they are, the more they feel they have to prove, the more they feel they have to prove, the more insecure type of person they are. (Do you want to train with an insecure Sifu?)

"A martial arts sifu is a person who teaches COMBAT plain and simplie!"

Yes in this line you describe a sifu but a GOOD martial arts sifu, will teach you more than combat. ie: self restraint, respect and humility.

When I see someone who posts on these forums and makes such bad mistakes, i not only feel for them, but for the students that train with him. The students that feel that it would be alright to act in the same manner thier sifu does. A teacher's job (be it in MA or academia) is to inspire. If they inspire their student to be @$$ holes then they are not really finding the true meaning of Kung Fu are they.

Mantis7 were you ever a young student that looked up to your sifu and said I want to be just like him. Maybe you weren't but trust me there are a lot of students out there with that type of attitude. If you didn't look up to him then maybe you just wanted a teacher how to show you to just kick @$$. A traditional kung Fu school tends to be more like a family with a father figure, older brother figures and younger brother figures. We learn Kung Fu but we also learn about morals (but you can read that in your other post "whats traditional kung fu"

I am not a student with my head in the clouds and I realize nobody is perfect, but in martial arts world we must strive for perfection in style and in our real words. There are sifus out there that are very careful how they act in front of thier students and on these boards.Because if they make a mistake or do something stupid, it's the whole school that suffers. It's not just a black mark on his school but all his students.

If I work for a big company and I go out, my behaviour reflects on my company as well. THis is what it's like in the martial arts world.




[B][I]

[Hungfutkune]

Oh yeah I almost forgot another of your quotes.

"First thing I would like to say is do not let tradition blind intellect, reason and common sense!"

Actually it's the other way around, tradition helps for the student to increase intellect, reason, and common sense!! If we don't know where we come from, how can we tell where we're going!

Sorry, I am not as eloquent with words as some of my other colleagues on this forum, but I am hoping that Wang Rui Xian has a few more words to say.


Thanks for opening up this forum Mantis7!

[mantis7]

No problem this needs to be discussed

I would like to restate. We travel our own roads in life.. Now if someone is tudying martial arts for personal enlightmenet as in being a better person, learn how to behave in a certain cultural enviorment, or what have you then that is a personal choice. A student will find a teacher that has the qualities that they desire.

This comes down to personal choice.

Yes a student will try to emulate their sifu its almost a natural progression. This is does not take away from a teacher who is an *******, loud mouth or just not normally accpeted in the inner circles. He/she could still be an excellent Martial artisit but may not conform to the social norms of those around him/her.

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Quote
Actually a good sifu will not only know how to teach but should also be of good character. If not he will develop students of ill character. Though I hate to make this comparison, look at the Kobrai Kai school in the Karate Kid movie. Yes it was only a movie but I have seen instructors like this, and I have seen his students turn out to be nothing but trouble makers and street hoods. With lack of respect for other styles and people
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ok this goes back to what I said in the begining.. This is a choice of person preference. Good character is defined by the indvidual and those that flock to them. A Sifu who is giving, loving and sharing may be seen as a good sifu. Also an aggressive, beligernet and hard teacher may also be seen as a good teacher to those who are attracted to them. It all boils down to social norms. They are defined by the group not by the outsiders. So the kobra kai teacher is a good enviorment for those who desire that type of enviorment.

so even though by the majority the kobra kai is a bad place and bad teacher it is still being viewed by those who do not like that enviorment. If what I am saying isnt true then why do schools and teachers like this exsist?


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Quote:
totally disagree with your point here. In my experience it is usually the quiet guy that is not known as anybody that we should be more afraid of. The louder they are, the more they feel they have to prove, the more they feel they have to prove, the more insecure type of person they are. (Do you want to train with an insecure Sifu?)
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I have meet the quiet type and the loud mouth... A bad ass comes in both forms... when I refer to the bad ass who likes to fight, call people on thier bull**** and what not I dont mean those Sifus that posses a bark that is stronger than their bite. I am talking about those sifus who when challeneged do not back down nor do they let those who are frauds associate with them. LOl I am a new yorker anyways maybe its just a way of life down here.

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Yes in this line you describe a sifu but a GOOD martial arts sifu, will teach you more than combat. ie: self restraint, respect and humility
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:D you see this is what you define what a good sifu is! but not everyone looks for that it is yet again a personal preference. This is a cultural thing i.e a sifu who is a buddist, christina, muslim or what ever. Most teachers will incorperate their own moral beliefs into their teachings. So this will vary from teacher to teacher. If they lack this it does not mean that they are not a good Martial arts sifu. Hence the word Martial ( war).. combat teacher.. we imply morals in their because that is what we have come to associate with a teacher and with what we think a good person should be in general.


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Quote:
The students that feel that it would be alright to act in the same manner thier sifu does. A teacher's job (be it in MA or academia) is to inspire. If they inspire their student to be @$$ holes then they are not really finding the true meaning of Kung Fu are they.
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Well I would have disagree here. The true meaning of Kung fu for everone is an idivdual idea. Someone may like how they are and only desire to learn how to fight. Now when you add the morals, enlightment and the such to it the idea is changed. The true meaning to kung fu may be this to you but I can say with certainty that this isnt the same for many others. A sifu can inspire with out instilling morals, they inspire the student to reach their limits and beyond as far as combat and training goes. If it goes beyond this it could be a plus for some and a minus for others.
everyone has to define their own personal definition of True Kung Fu.


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Quote:
I am not a student with my head in the clouds and I realize nobody is perfect, but in martial arts world we must strive for perfection in style and in our real words. There are sifus out there that are very careful how they act in front of thier students and on these boards.Because if they make a mistake or do something stupid, it's the whole school that suffers. It's not just a black mark on his school but all his students.
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I agree with this point and that is why I dislike the politics.. Judge the indivdual but at the same time understand not everyone will like each other and get along.



I like you response and it makes alot of sense and normally I would have agreed with everything you said but I am putting to the side my own personal beliefs and desires to look at the reality of the situation. Not saying that you didnt but alot of people look at Kung fu the same way you do but just because they do doesnt make it so


Victor