Moral Dilemma: Performance Enhancing Supplements . . .

[Vash]

To be perfectly honest, the only drug which has ever made me take a second look is steroids. I mean, dayum, look how amazing Arnold's physique was. Look at our professional athletes, how well they do. Just . . . wow.

But, I've never touched them. Never will. Now, I'm not morally opposed to the use of the various steroids, hormonal manipulation compounds, or anything of that sort. Yes, I belive there should be regulation of these substances, but no more so than on prescription drugs. Which, ironically, brings me to the topic at hand . . .

Vioxx (http://www.compare-prescription-prices.com/vioxx.htm) . Wait, it's not a performance enhancer, at least, in the general sense of the word. It would be more apt to describe it as a performance inabler. It's like your crack dealer, except the crack is powercleans and your dealer is a generic pink pill. Anyway, I digress.

I'm gonna buy me some non-prescription, generic Vioxx. That stuff is the only thing I've taken which has alleviated the discomfort in my knees. I'm going to take it in conjuction with my physical therapy (which I'm still doing for completely stupid reasons. My knees got better, so I lifted weights on them again [lunges, squats, step ups, et al]. Anyhoo, fugged them back to square one). By the middle of next year, I predict I'll be done with physical therapy (most of the exercises will remain in my regimens, though, as I don't plan on squating or lunging anytime soon :( )and will hopefully be off of Vioxx.

Thing of it is, I'm not going to be able to afford the stuff until I get a job (again, within two weeks, God willing).

So, to finally reach the end of this lengthy blab: I'm going to get some Vioxx, I'm gonna fix myself, I'm gonna be happier.

Gona update my workout log tomorrow, too. Get to say how I DL'd 240, 250, and 260 for a set of four each Thursday, and how it felt dang good.

[IronFist]

It's pretty much like this. You're not going to make it to the elite levels of any sport without drugs. Why? Because the people are are already elite, who have the best genetics and the best training are using drugs to give them the edge over everyone else. So not only do you have to use drugs if you want to be elite, you also have to use them just to keep up with all the other elite athletes. This is all assuming you have the genetics to do so in the first place.

A couple people on the board like to disagree with me and say that pro athletes don't use drugs (steroids). You guys can think whatever you want. Drug tests can be beaten with masking agents. The proof is there. If you know where to look you can find people who have the inside info anyway. Many ex players will admit to using steroids in the past.

And finally, because someone always likes to say it, steroids don't cause brain cancer. I know that one guy died of a brain tumor, and I know that he admitted his steroid use caused it. However, after his death, his own doctor admitted that his steroid use didn't cause his brain tumor (of course the press didn't advertise this as much as they did him saying it did), and also, the biggest reason that steroids don't cause brain cancer is... everyone pull out your biology books... there are no steroid receptors in the brain. Oh, thanks for playing. Now go back to believing what the media tells you is fact and leave the real knowledge to us who actually do the research.

I'm not condoning steroid use. However, if you do your research you will likely find which ones will work for your goals, which ones are the safest to use, how to minimize any side effects, how long to cycle them for, whether to taper them or not, what to stack together if anything, whether pills or injectables are better for your goals, what side effects each type of steroid has, how long to stay on each one, etc. Doing your research doesn't mean talking to the big guy at the gym. It means reading everything you can find, and then reading more, and then reading it all again. It means studying chemistry so you know what you're putting in your body, what it does, how it does it and why it does it.

And finally, if you decide to do a cycle, make sure you have everything on hand before you begin. You don't want your cycle to be ending and then you realize that you don't have any Clomid yet.

And the closer you are to your genetic potential before you start using steroids, the better. Roids are not for noobs! Not only will you get the best results if you're close to your potential before you start, but it should take you a while to do all the necessary research. So don't be in a hurry. And no, you're not at your genetic potential yet.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
It's pretty much like this. You're not going to make it to the elite levels of any sport without drugs.

But if you do opt for drugs with elite comp in mind, how far are you going to get when you get there before being UT'ed and disqualified?? And if you chop down before hand, how 's that going to effect your performance??

You know what, I'm one of these natural hippy types, so i'm just going to stay out of it. If we're talking steriods, I wouldn't take you seriously though, not as a person anyway.

[Vash]

Ironfist has taken the correct and put it on a cycle.

I don't know why I equated steroid use with utilizing Vioxx for joint health. Maybe I was too sleepy.

Anyway, good post IF.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
But if you do opt for drugs with elite comp in mind, how far are you going to get when you get there before being UT'ed and disqualified??


Originally posted by me
Drug tests can be beaten with masking agents.

The best athletes with connections to the best "sports pharmacologists" (chemists) not only have access to the best drugs, but also to the best masking agents.


You know what, I'm one of these natural hippy types, so i'm just going to stay out of it. If we're talking steriods, I wouldn't take you seriously though, not as a person anyway.

Huh? I was talking steroids. What did you think I was talking about?

[mickey]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


DON"T DO STEROIDS, PERIOD.

Arnold Schwarzenegger, possibly a future presidential sphincter, has had a few operations with regard to his heart. That motorcycle accident was bogus: a you going to allow someone move you around and put you in a car when you have cracked ribs? Arnold is racing against time and he knows it. You may think he is still strong but watch him walk. My left nut moves faster than he does.

Question: If vioxx habit forming?

mickey

[Vash]

Originally posted by mickey
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


DON"T DO STEROIDS, PERIOD.

. . . Why not? Show me ONE legitimate medical study which concludes EDUCATED, MONITORED, and INTELLIGENT use of steroidal compounds which causes health problems.

As an aside, I don't think anyone should get steroids unless they're over the age of 30, and have been training intelligently for at least 10 years prior to hittin' 30.

I don't think anyone here is advocating use of steroids. Me, I'd rather it's use be concentrated in the medical field, assisting muscle growth for cancer and AIDS patients.


Question: If vioxx habit forming?

mickey

No. Vioxx (Rofecoxib) is a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug known as a COX-2 inhibitor.

[IronFist]

Vash, steroids can do a lot of bad stuff to you. They raise blood pressure, mess with yoru hormones, etc. I'm just saying that they're not as inherrently evil as the media would have you believe. For the vast vast majority of users, their lives would be a lot healthier if they chose not to use steroids. Nearly every anabolic androgenic steroid user experiences side effects. I'm just trying to say that they won't automatically turn you into a raging, small nutted, bald-headed hairy-backed monster.

[mickey]

Hi Vash,

Was there ever such a study conducted? That would take years. Most studies of medications are usually 5-10 years at most. To look at side effects, we would probably need a 25 to 50 year study: time consuming and expensive.

If you want to see some of the effects of steroid use amongst female bodybuilders, check out Muscle Elegance magazine. If you can muster the strength to look at the women from the neck up, look at their jawline and chin. There are other physical attributes that can be explored to make my case; but, if that is what is happening to these athletes chin and jawline as a result of steroid use, what is really going on at the DNA level and how long will it take for some of these other changes to surface?

mickey

[Vash]

IF:

Indeed, they can. That's why I avoid them, and that's why tell clients they don't need them (the few times I've been asked). I think my post was quite bit off in that I didn't note any of the not-so-good effects of steroid use.

mickey:

I don't know if any study on that scale has yet been done. And to be honest, I was a bit overboard in my near-endorsement of steroid use. Again, I oppose it's use by anyone who's under 30, has less than 10 years of training, and has yet to max out his genetic potential.

I'd love to see careful study for steroidal compounds for medicinal purposes.

[Vash]

Has anyone had any experience with Vioxx or it's generic equivalent? I've used it before for my knees, but my insurance eventually stopped paying for it, and a bottle end up costing me $97.15 for 25 tablets. Frikkin horrible.

The only side effects (other than painless knee flexion and extension) was a bad stomach cramp if I took it on an empty stomach.

[mickey]

Hey Vash,

Have you tried MSM:methylsulfonylmethane?

This is great for joints and connective tissues. I recommend it. MSM is one of those essential building blocks in human bio-maintenance.

mickey

[Vash]

Originally posted by mickey
Hey Vash,

Have you tried MSM:methylsulfonylmethane?

This is great for joints and connective tissues. I recommend it. MSM is one of those essential building blocks in human bio-maintenance.

mickey

Yes. It works great. I use it in conjunction with my glucosamine and chondroiton. Helps my shoulders but not my knees. The Vioxx takes the inflammation caused by the incorrect movement of my patella all the way down.

Just wish the stuff wasn't so dang expensive.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
The best athletes with connections to the best "sports pharmacologists" (chemists) not only have access to the best drugs, but also to the best masking agents.



Huh? I was talking steroids. What did you think I was talking about?

I only said that because in the poll there was refernce to shakes and other supplements.

I am aware their are masking agents, but you know roids have effect on aggressive disposition etc and consequentially mental stabilty and control. A drug's a drug as far as I'm concerned and if you're achieving it artificially, you may as well just go out and buy yourself some implants. It is not fruits of honest labour and I just can't pay it's value.

[FngSaiYuk]

Vash, ever considered rubbing your knees with dit da jow/iron conditioning medicine? A good jow is anti inflammatory and since it's topical is easy to target specific areas.

Anyways, I'm have no idea how bad your injuries are, but when I had banged my right knee up when I was younger, I could barely get out of my bed due to all the movement and pressure on the knee. I didn't have insurance at the time, so I just used heated dit da jow and massaged it often. I healed really quickly (~3weeks) and I felt that my knee was stronger after.

I also gave it to my father for his arthritis on his hands and to help after he had shoulder surgery (after the skin had scarred over) as it helped him out better than the prescribed medicine AND it was much cheaper (albeit smellier).

Anyways, something to consider trying out if it's available to you at a lower cost.

[mickey]

Vash,

You may want to introduce longer periods of rest for your legs from those concussive movements (suggestion: 2-3 weeks); in the meantime between, use less concussive training like bike riding. Bike to enjoy: not the Lance Armstrong stuff!

Re:MSM

You may want to increase (if you are not alrerady doing so) your dosage to 4000-6000 mg. per day. 3000 in the morning and 3000 in the evening may help out more. I am saying this about the MSM only.

mickey

[blooming lotus]

okay, well while we're here, how about a little school?? What exactly is msm and how does it work??

[Vash]

Who knows, I probably typed the whole thing, then closed my browser.


Originally posted by mickey
Vash,

You may want to introduce longer periods of rest for your legs from those concussive movements (suggestion: 2-3 weeks); in the meantime between, use less concussive training like bike riding. Bike to enjoy: not the Lance Armstrong stuff!



What concussive movements are you referring to?



Re:MSM

You may want to increase (if you are not alrerady doing so) your dosage to 4000-6000 mg. per day. 3000 in the morning and 3000 in the evening may help out more. I am saying this about the MSM only.

mickey

I do 3k in the morning, 3k before I go to bed. Seems to work great.

[HiddenShadow]

I think I'll just stick with my once a day multivitamin and eatin healthy stuff. :)

[Vash]

What about shakes? How's about vitamins? What about dietary manipulation? Where is the line drawn between eating healthy and cheating?

That's the question which initially prompted me to post this topic. It's sometimes unclear where supplementation ends and unnatural enhancement begins.

[mickey]

Vash,

I was referring to the legwork that you do. Give yourself time to heal.

mickey

[IronFist]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
It is not fruits of honest labour and I just can't pay it's value.

Actually, people using steroids have to train (and eat) even harder (assuming we're talking about bodybuilding). You don't just inject and get strong/huge automatically. And you know that there are steroids and drug cycles that are designed for things other than bodybuilding, right?

[Vash]

Originally posted by mickey
Vash,

I was referring to the legwork that you do. Give yourself time to heal.

mickey

Ah, I gotcha. The therapy needs to be done usually on a daily basis - it's nowhere near the intensity of a workout routine. If I skip a day or two in it, my knees ache like hell, and they click whenever I bend my knee past 90 degrees.

The leg work I do with weights, I do that twice weekly.

[IronFist]

My knees click when I bend them all the way, like at the bottom of a squat, or when I crouch all the way down, for example.

They've always done that ever since I was in 6th grade, so I don't think it has anything to do with lifting weights.

[Vash]

Mine click 'cuz the patella jumps in and out of it's groove. When it slips down and grinds the cartilage and clicks, that **** hurts like a *****.

[cerebus]

Have you tried wrapping your knees with ACE bandages? I've had cartilage damage to my knees since I got outta the Army in '92.

I've been training in Hsing-I & Bagua for almost 2 years now and all our stances have to be low and rooted. This made my knees hurt quite a bit sometimes (especially when doing Hsing-I's Dragon form). Recently I started wrapping my knees really well and now I can do everything the way it's supposed to be done (even Dragon) and my knees are feeling better & stronger than they have for a very long time.

[fa_jing]

I've found Bike riding to be very nice for the knees. But, make sure you use good form and lift with the non-pressing leg - will help the knees more.

[Vash]

Originally posted by cerebus
Have you tried wrapping your knees with ACE bandages? I've had cartilage damage to my knees since I got outta the Army in '92.

I've been training in Hsing-I & Bagua for almost 2 years now and all our stances have to be low and rooted. This made my knees hurt quite a bit sometimes (especially when doing Hsing-I's Dragon form). Recently I started wrapping my knees really well and now I can do everything the way it's supposed to be done (even Dragon) and my knees are feeling better & stronger than they have for a very long time.

Yeah, right now I'm using Jumper's Bands. They help immensly.

Fa_Jing:

All but two of the bikes at the gym (not the one I'm going to train at, mind you) are those recumbant sunzabiches. And the two that aren't are often broken. :( Besides, I hate biking ;)

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
Actually, people using steroids have to train (and eat) even harder (assuming we're talking about bodybuilding). You don't just inject and get strong/huge automatically. And you know that there are steroids and drug cycles that are designed for things other than bodybuilding, right?


i JUST POSTED THIS AND LOST IT, BUT 1 MORE TIME FOR THE FANS. :rolleyes:

YOU ALL KNOW HERE i IDEALLY TRAIN UP TO 12 HRS DAILY 5 + X PER WEEK. DON'T EVEN TRY TO TELL ME YOU'RE WORKING HARDER NOR LONGER..MY REG LOAD IS INSANE AT BEST!!!

I WENT TO SLEEP WITH THIS ISSUE LAST NIGHT, I RESPECT YOU IRON, BUT WHAT ??? ....NOW YOU'RE TELLING ME YOU'RE A DRUG ADDICT??!! HOW EVER WE LOOK AT IT, IT'S RESULTS PRODUCED THROUGH LESS WORK AND ARTIFICIAL MEANS.

I JUST CAN'T RESPECT THAT!!

I KNOW YOU MORE THAN LIKELY HAVE CHECKED IT OUT PRIOR , BUT NOW BABE?? YOU STILL DOING THAT SH*T?? WE ARE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS!!! ........REAL??? PLASTIC AND OVERINFATUATED WITH THE WRONG TANGENT ( IE :- GROWING MUSCLE ( THAN BEST HEALTH??)

.BUDONG BABE.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

b

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
i JUST POSTED THIS AND LOST IT, BUT 1 MORE TIME FOR THE FANS. :rolleyes:


None of us are your fans.



I WENT TO SLEEP WITH THIS ISSUE LAST NIGHT, I RESPECT YOU IRON, BUT WHAT ??? ....NOW YOU'RE TELLING ME YOU'RE A DRUG ADDICT??!!

No. He's talking about the benefits and drawbacks of steroids. At no point did he say he used them. Please learn to read.



HOW EVER WE LOOK AT IT, IT'S RESULTS PRODUCED THROUGH LESS WORK AND ARTIFICIAL MEANS.


No, it's results produced through artificial means. It's not results produced through less work - steroids simply enable you to do more work.



I JUST CAN'T RESPECT THAT!!

And I can't respect someone leaving their daughter without a mother while they go off travelling the world, but I usually refrain from passing judgement on people I don't know.


WE ARE HEALTH PROFESSIONALS!!!

No, you aren't.



.BUDONG BABE.I JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

b

Please, for the love of all that is holy -

Learn to read
Learn to spell
Learn when to use Caps Lock (ie, never)

[Serpent]

Yeah, what Fatherdog said.

[blooming lotus]

all valuable input :rolleyes:

but back to the break down. can you tell me what msm is??

[Toby]

Eyebrows, read the thread properly:
Originally posted by mickey
Have you tried MSM:methylsulfonylmethane?

This is great for joints and connective tissues. I recommend it. MSM is one of those essential building blocks in human bio-maintenance.

Back to the topic - I have no opinion. As you know I have some experience in controlled substances, so I can't soapbox on any anti-drug issues. I wouldn't take steroids personally, but I wouldn't be averse to creatine. I'll see what happens. I certainly wouldn't care if anyone I knew took roids unless it affected me directly (i.e. they became an aggressive dick).

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
well it figures you'd accept that as an explanation.Why? :confused: You asked
Originally posted by blooming lotus
can you tell me what msm is??and I showed you that mickey had already said what it is. I don't understand where the problem is?

[blooming lotus]

I did ask, because if it has a purpose for health , I should know right?? :P :)
By saying it's good for joints and connective tissue though and even that it's a building block still doesn't tell me how it works, but vague outline of the end result. I know you wouldn't accept that yourself, so on to google ;)




unless you wanna elaborate yourself??

[blooming lotus]

I've just been looking at this http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/msm.html

and it sounds nasty at best. It more than likely does do all of what it claims, but if you look at the chemical breakdown it looks like a minerally, speed like stripping and heating thing. Surely there are more natural means to achieve the same thing!


(shudders).nasty!!


I do see all of those aspects as important, but that's why I am always raving about sugars and viscous and acids and estringents an adequate protein intake and breakdown etc. But there are much safer ways to go about it..for your av natural loving hippy anyway ;)

[mickey]

Hi blooming lotus,

My apologies for not getting back to you.

The person writing the link that you posted makes the allegation that the benefits of taking MSM is remote; yet provides the reader with his unsubstantiated talk and expects the reader to accept it as fact.

I take MSM and it does more than help repair my joints. It helps my body in the entire process of repair. I feel the difference. I do not sell MSM. I only recommend things that I have experience with and that I feel can be to the benefit of others.

mickey

[IronFist]

I'll make an itemized list for those who can't read or comprehend well.

1. Whether or not I use steroids is not relevent to this thread. But, I never said I did, because I don't.

2. Steroids are not a shortcut. You don't have to do less work on steroids. There are people who use steroids who don't make any gains and then they wonder why. When you look at their training/eating schedules you find out that it's because they weren't training/eating enough.

[_William_]

I am against taking steroids.

After all, it IS cheating to use steroids in sport. You gain an unfair advantage over clean athletes. IMO, athletics should be about who is the one who trained the hardest with his natural abilities and talents, not who is taking the best drug program.

If you're not in any kind of competition where drugs are banned, well I suppose the moral line begins to blur there and you have to decide for yourself if it is right or not.

[IronFist]

^ The elite levels of sports are now about who has the best genetics AND the best drug schedule.

Unfortunately.

[rubthebuddha]

vash -- you can have your thread back.

[IronFist]

Did a bunch of posts just get beleated?

[Toby]

Yeppers. Including some of mine that actually had some content IIRC. That makes me :mad: since I rarely post content these days :D.

OTOH, rubby must have the patience of a saint to put up with Eyebrows-related threads. If only he'd known what he was getting himself in for when he signed up to mod the training forum, pre-Eyebrows :D.

[rubthebuddha]

If only he'd known what he was getting himself in for when he signed up to mod the training forum ... if i knew, i'd have demanded far more sexual favors from gene and design sifu than just positions 1-25. :mad: :mad:

IF -- yeah. one of the powers us mods have is the ability to selectively go through a thread and balete the pure bull**** and keep the lesser bull****.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by IronFist
^ The elite levels of sports are now about who has the best genetics AND the best drug schedule.

Unfortunately.

To say that there are not honest athletes acheiving elite results is a sad generalisation and just not true. Yah they 're out there, but so are the honest ones.

[cerebus]

Bye (still waving).

[Vash]

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
vash -- you can have your thread back.

rubthebuddha = super cool! [cue over-exagerated thumbs up]

[rubthebuddha]

now let's get back to ironfist's addiction to vitamin s. :D

er

that wasn't it. what were we talking about again?

[sticky fingers]

Vash

have you tried any of the older NSAIDS like diclofenac or naproxen? Far cheaper than Vioxx but only if your stomach is up to it...

[Meat Shake]

"i IDEALLY TRAIN UP TO 12 HRS DAILY 5 + X PER WEEK"

Ahh... and then with all of this travelling you "do", and all of these people you "meet" and places you go to "learn", you must never eat or sleep!
Wow.... Are you superman? or just stupid, man? Have you ever said anything true? Do you never check yourself or the diahrea spewing from your mouth? Do you ever read anything published by someone with FACTS? or do you just get all of your info from the weekly world news (http://www.weeklyworldnews.com) ??
wow.... just... Wow....

[Vash]

Originally posted by sticky fingers
Vash

have you tried any of the older NSAIDS like diclofenac or naproxen? Far cheaper than Vioxx but only if your stomach is up to it...

Yes. As you alluded to, they fug my stomach all kinds of up.
And they didn't really work that well. Even Celebrex didn't work.

[Meat Shake]

Vash: My knees have always been bad, but they arent nearly as bad as they once were. Vioxx is the only drug of the type that works, and in all honesty, the generic version didnt work for me as well as vioxx itself did. Vioxx should only cost 4-6$ more than the generic brand.
Are you a full time student by chance? If so, there are many insurance companies that will cover that...
Bad luck for you also... I just threw out like 40 vioxx pills that I forgot about a while ago, and they got too hot and went bad. I dont use it anymore and would have happily sent it to you... I may have a few more sample boxes with 4 good pills in each... Ill look when i get home. A big thing for my knees has honestly been static stances. Holding static postures has strengthened the connective tissues and helped a LOAD with the every day aches and pains.
Also, do you possibly over-stretch or not stretch your knees before training? Over stretching was a big contributing factor to the problems I used to have....

[Vash]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Vash: My knees have always been bad, but they arent nearly as bad as they once were. Vioxx is the only drug of the type that works, and in all honesty, the generic version didnt work for me as well as vioxx itself did. Vioxx should only cost 4-6$ more than the generic brand.

I was wondering if the generic stuff would be as effective as the real deal. Thanks for the heads up.



Are you a full time student by chance? If so, there are many insurance companies that will cover that...

My insurance'll cover that, but my deductible is as pleasant to pay as being ass-raped by a drunken mime.



I may have a few more sample boxes with 4 good pills in each... Ill look when i get home.

I won't complain if you do ;)


A big thing for my knees has honestly been static stances. Holding static postures has strengthened the connective tissues and helped a LOAD with the every day aches and pains.

Indeed. I've used deep variations of two Isshinryu stances which have the toes turned in. Helps hella much.


Also, do you possibly over-stretch or not stretch your knees before training? Over stretching was a big contributing factor to the problems I used to have....

I hate to admit, but I think it's been a case of understretching. I often stretch my hams, quads, groin, and calves, but I'd never thought of doing a stretch which really gets a hold on the VMO until about 3 months ago. All of a sudden, they don't ache unless I've been running (which I avoid at all costs). Also noticed some of the smaller muscles around the hips were far too unflexible.

Need to work on my strength as well. I've been avoid the kneeling stances in my forms, and it's about time to start working those SMART, as opposed to dropping in and out of them/

[Meat Shake]

Also, pistols are GREAT if your knees are strong enough.

Stretches...

try these two...
First one is done standing. Stand straight with your fists at your waist, feet together. Cross the left leg over the right, remaining standing. The blade of your left foot should be touching the blade of your right foot, your left knee in front of your right, touching. Lean over and grab your right achiles with your right hand, use your left hand on the ground for balance if you need to. Switch legs and repeat.
If you stretch while sitting on the ground with your legs in front of you, put a slight bend in the knees. For some reason stretching too hard with my knees locked put a TON of stress on the tendons in my knees, but stretching them the way I described standing up doesnt. The sitting version is more for the hammies, standing focuses more on the knees themselves I guess... Not quite sure. But the standing one works great. :)
Ill take a picture and post it when I ge thome in a few minutes.

[Vash]

Pistols kick ass. I'm going to be working them in slowly. I think my ego has been the main thing keeping me from putting them in, since I know I'm not getting the full ROM from the beginning.

Thanks for the stretch. I'm going to use that tonight. I'll post how it goes.

[rubthebuddha]

vash -- to take your recent tone ...

**** your ego. **** it right in the pooper. pistols ain't easy at first, but if you have the strength and balance, they're real simple to get the hang of.

mike mahler had a good bit on pistols (no surprise there): http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler2.htm

just follow the advice to a T and you'll be doing full pistols in no time.

[fa_jing]

I think it depends on your knee structure. They will help some knees and hurt others. They bother my knee in fact, and I am the pistol master on this board. :D

[Toby]

Pistols make my knees crack and hurt a tiny bit for a while after (days sometimes). Everyone knows squats should only go down to horizontal ;).


Originally posted by Vash
My insurance'll cover that, but my deductible is as pleasant to pay as being ass-raped by a drunken mime.Keep an open mind - it's not so bad after the first few times :eek: :D.

[Vash]

Did I mention my tibia inserts into the knee at an angle?

Vash = big-****ed freak of nature.

[Serpent]

Good knee exercise for strengthening the thing (Sorry if this has been mentioned before, as I only skimmed the thread):

Sit with your back flat against a wall and your legs out straight.

Pull you toes back.

Keeping the legs straight and the toes back, raise your legs alternately as high as you can and slowly lower back down.

You should feel a burn right at the insertion of the quads quite quickly.

Let us know if that helps you out at all.

As for pistols, if you're too much of a pu$$y to manage them straight away ( ;) ) start with bleacher squats.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"i IDEALLY TRAIN UP TO 12 HRS DAILY 5 + X PER WEEK"

Ahh... and then with all of this travelling you "do", and all of these people you "meet" and places you go to "learn", you must never eat or sleep!
Wow.... Are you superman? or just stupid, man? Have you ever said anything true? Do you never check yourself or the diahrea spewing from your mouth? Do you ever read anything published by someone with FACTS? or do you just get all of your info from the weekly world news (http://www.weeklyworldnews.com) ??
wow.... just... Wow....

THat's what I said, and If you read on I also said I could only keep it up for 5-6 mths at a time. The fact your little unexperienced self can't comprehend is just more reason for myself to feel confident.

deal with it.some us actually "do" work, and redifine hard with everything we do.

Ps: I still want to the follow up track and stfu and give Vash his glory!!

[Vash]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
give Vash his glory!!

First **** good thing you've said.

And stop bickering on my thread, ******!

Serpet;

That's one of my PT exercises. Hurts alike a bithc. But it helps immensly.

[Serpent]

Sweet. It's a great one for knee strength. Glad you've found it.