Need to prove something?...

[old jong]

Hey tough guys and internet warriors! Stop posting about your unverifiable exploits and register to fight here (http://www.soyouwannafight.com/)!...:D
You could be on T.V.!...
;)

[YongChun]

I will be rooting for Terrence. Finally we will be able to see his results. After that everyone can follow a new Messiah of Wing Chun.

[AmanuJRY]

But that's just boxing rules.

[old jong]

Well,that should be even easier for a real tough internet warrior!...The perfect format to fight bikers,gang members,brawllers,truckers,bouncers,miners,even plumbers!...:D

There is just a catch...It is not sparring,the guys are really trying to take heads off!...;)

[Ernie]

well then the chi sau drill guys should go and prove how they don't need to spar by joining and dominateing :)

this would shut every body up and we could stop pushing training so hard get a big belly and just sit and chi sau
it would make life so much easier :p

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
well then the chi sau drill guys should go and prove how they don't need to spar by joining and dominateing :)

this would shut every body up and we could stop pushing training so hard get a big belly and just sit and chi sau
it would make life so much easier :p

I think if you eat enough donuts and get fat enough then you might do OK in those contests. Donuts have been the proven diet for police work. The other way is to put your opponent to sleep watching your slow Tai Chi warmup, then clock him.

[t_niehoff]

Yongchun wrote:

I will be rooting for Terrence. Finally we will be able to see his results. After that everyone can follow a new Messiah of Wing Chun.

**I don't need to -- I get my @ss kicked every week. ;) I'm no messiah, and my pov certainly isn't new.

----------------

Ernie wrote:

well then the chi sau drill guys should go and prove how they don't need to spar by joining and dominateing . . .

**They're too dangerous for that -- and besides, since it is not a fight to the death, their skills won't work. ;) The bottom line is really pretty simple: folks that are interested in results will want and need to see whether their training is producing results; folks that have a different objective in their "practice" of WCK will not be so inclined.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by YongChun
I think if you eat enough donuts and get fat enough then you might do OK in those contests. Donuts have been the proven diet for police work. The other way is to put your opponent to sleep watching your slow Tai Chi warmup, then clock him.


cool sounds like more fun then what i'm doing right now iceing my twisted elbow and rubbing thai oil on the baseball size lump on my shin :)

good times !

[kj]

Over time these arguments have become redundant, silly, and in some ways even rather funny. It is mostly the same people going over the same things, again and again and again. The irony is that people on all sides of the discussion are very reasonable and have well considered, multi-faceted opinions. Unfortunately, sometimes people don't treat or talk to each other with that kind of respect.

Unless there are some dramatically new ideas or discoveries proposed, it is very unlikely for people to change others' already well thought out perspectives. However, a lot of effort and frustration can be expended in trying, or in drawing non-existent lines in the sand (e.g., picking sides). I don't think wasting energy that way is very constructive in the long term, nor consistent with Wing Chun. However, for some those types of endless debates are also a fun challenge or a form of entertainment, and so I think they will inevitably crop up.

If you read through all the actual arguments and discussions over time related to reality fighting, almost all of these reasonable people appear to agree on quite a lot, maybe even on most points. In this sense, the banter often becomes quite comical. Most have agreed, for example, that it is best or important to incorporate a combination of both controlled and high pressure experience in one's training. This is a huge point of agreement, yet this is rarely acknowledged. It is just that it's taboo to acknowledge this or other points of agreement, LOL.

The gray edges of definitions are what seem to get people riled up the most, and keep things going round and round. Things like what actually constitutes a "real fight" or fighting environment vs. other forms of high intensity training, proof vs. evidence, and appropriately differing yet thoughtful perspectives and experiences on risks and safety issues. In other words, the same old topics with recurring misunderstandings or disagreements on the meaning of terms.

Unfortunately, instead of sticking to the topic (even if it has to be a redundant topic), when people get frustrated or impatient, they sometimes begin to sully or insult one another. And if someone does that to us, or we feel we are being bullied, we find ourselves wanting to do the same thing to them in return, even if it is not our usual nature to behave that way. And the cycle continues.

It can be helpful to remember that this forum does not represent some higher reality. It's merely a reflection of the current whims of those who happen here of a day. When things get unnecessarily frustrating, it can also be helpful to remember that there is an ignore option.

Things and people often look quite different in writing or on the internet than they do in real life. For intelligent beings, we humans are a zany lot.

At least that's what I see. Writing this was probably a comical waste of time also, though just sharing as I was reflecting on some of it for myself.

Regards and train well!
- kj

[YongChun]

Very good note Kathy-Jo. We can't really get anywhere with these kinds of discussions. So I think it's just kind of a mental Chess match. We don't know each other's fighting experiences and shouldn't look down on them.

It appear all stories should be discounted yet those stories are what probably got people interested in the first place. Usually I don't like to give my opinion too much because I am not a fighting master. But I have met a lot of people that are considered masters and so I thought the best I could do was to share some of the things I was told by these supposed experts. I tend to believe the things they say and so I follow these people's training advice and then see if I can apply it also.

Lately I have been impressed with Gary Lam. By all my standards to date he seems to fit all the criteria for pretty good Wing Chun. Plus I read he has actual experience with the Thai boxers. So that's why I bought some of his DVDs.

However by the talk on these forums, there are no masters and it is a waste of people's times to hear what any master has said. Furthermore even Gary Lam's exploits with the Thais are just more stories since no one has seen this. Also the DVD's don't show him going up against anyone reallly trying to take his head off. So we will never know if his stuff really works. The same goes for Emin. He has stories about 300 successful fights and again those are just stories. No one has seen these fights. Furthermore on video he beats up people who are less skillful and smaller than him which is an easy thing for anyone to do.

So if I was a critical MMA type then I would certainly point out that too as part of my argument why Wing Chun is useless and that there are no masters of any kind in Wing Chun.

Perhaps the biggest non master of them all is Yip Man because he has no registered fights against anyone and even all the stories about him list maybe two fights against complete nobodys. His students rarely like to talk about him. The real hard evidence that anyone has actualy seen is not out there to show why anyone should train in Wing Chun. Yet for some dumb reason I will continue to train in this unverified art hopefully until I am 108 years old.

[AmanuJRY]

kj,

I could not agree with your sentiments more, very good points and very well put.

In honor of the original question 'need to prove something?', I would say that everyone needs to prove something...not to the other members of this forum, not to their students....but to themselves. Truth...real truth...is self-evident and does not require the testimony of others but does require the experience of it, first hand. By whatever means a person is exposed to truth, it will be known to them.

I often enjoy the experience of 'debating' the issues with people on this board as it brings about fresh perspective and requires me to constantly refine my beliefs, thus living up to the concept of 'eternal spring' or as I interpet it, always renewing.