Cross-Training too early??

[stuartm]

Hi all,

Generally i just wondered how many of you feel that you cross-trained too early, or have students who are 'spreading themselves too thinly' over a number of arts.

I feel fairly lucky in that i searched for Wing Chun for years while studying other arts, primarily the internal ones as well as a little karate early on.

When i found Wing Chun i wanted to learn the whole system as 'traditionally' as possible and so did not really dabble in other arts. Its only now after several years of intense study that I am seeing the value of arts like Kali, JKD and boxing being incorporated into my training.

At a seminar yesterday a number of students were asking about x-training and in IMHO, cross training too early can really confuse students. Unless you understand a sytem thoroughly (and im not saying i do by the way !!) I cant see how you can forge an opinion on the disadvantages of your training and how you need to complement it. An example:

- two of my students study Dim Mak / Tai Chi and Wing Chun. At class they are wearing themselves into the ground constantly trying to analyse their training, compare and contrast etc. I am all for students questioning and actively encourage it, but at 12 months training and half way through SLT syllabus, wouldnt you agree that it is better just to absorb the Wing Chun sytem fully first, than trying to constantly contrast at such an early stage?

On the other hand, two of my private students are experienced martial artists having trained for 15 years in JKD with the likes of quality people like Bob Breen, Inosanto, Vunak etc. However, they have recently come to realise that the Wing Chun system has such capabilities that they dont always have to look elsewhere for the answers. They have now decided to go back to the beginning and formally learn the Wing Chun system form beginning to end. They tell me that this now allows them to better apply what they have leatnt through their cross training.

Im sorry if this has been long-winded, but id be really interested to hear your perspective as a teacher / student etc. It seems to me that people often feel the need to x-train without asking themselves whether they need to do it, or whether it is the right time to embark on adding different arts to their repetoire.

Hope this prompts some good discussion as its taken me bloody ages to write !!!;)

Regards, Stu

[Kevin Bell]

Hello Stu,

I think the thing to think about with regard to VT is that people dont fall in to the trap of fixed responses if you do this i do this scenario.VT has no rules therefore with applicability to real violence you wanna make sure stamping,biting,gouging,head butting is in your thinking.People in VT impose constraints upon themselves close their eyes and dont want to think about the reality of urban warfare.

With regard to cross training,do it why not??Glove up get it on and see what you can do.I came from a boxing back ground originally and i still actively train/workout with boxers.thai guys etc.I've been bowled over more times than i care to remember but each time you go and get it on you learn a little more about yourself then a little more.

I remember when i frist started VT i would go in against friends who were boxers armed with only a Pak Sau and punch (severly limited at that time was i)and get blown away big time because i was imposing constraints upon myself.

Maybe some agree maybe some dont but its good fun thats for sure.

kev

[stonecrusher69]

I think I have the same opinion as you do.One thing I've found to be of help is not so much to learn all the different styles,but to test them agaist your style to see what works and what does'nt. and why then Find your weakness then correct it.

Good luck..

[YongChun]

I think it all depends on the circumstances, ability, age of the practitioner goals etc. A lot of our students already came from cross trained backgrounds so when they join they just concentrate on Wing Chun.

Even in the 1950's the late Grandmaster Yip Man encouraged his students to try to fight other arts in order to make their Wing Chun more effective and practical. However at the same time he had people spend two years doing the SLT form according to William Cheung in an interview.

I asked Patrick Chow who was a private student of Yip Man the question about whether cross training in Tai Chi would be a good thing. His answer was if you train in Tai Chi with the elbows out and Wing Chun with the elbows in then what will you do in a real fight when there is no time to think? He encouraged learning the art and then testing it against the other arts which is different than training in several arts at once. I think the latter does spread the student out too thin if the fighting ideas conflict.

From our own experiences since 1976, I have found that those people that train in boxing, Kenpo and in Karate, never get rid of the habits developed from those systems. Their art seems to be muscle based and their Wing Chun is not as good as someone who spent the same amount of time just training in Wing Chun.

When I was learning Hung style in the 1960's, the generation before me trained only in Hung style seven days a week, 5 hours a night. They could use their Wing Chun and it didn't look like kickboxing. My generation trained three days a week and the quality just wasn't the same nor could we apply it like the old timers could. That teacher also had the same idea as Yip Man which was to learn the art first and then go out and fight.

Practically most of the Wing Chun challenge matches came to a halt when 70 of the top Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong got together and then appealed to Yip Man to put an end to the challenge matches instigated by Wong Shun Leung and some others or else real blood would be shed (by shooting). We would have a similar problem today.

One of my teachers told me in the early 1980's that competitive fighting against the other styles is good but if you do that before completing the system then it is a hard way to learn about fighting. He felt it was a better idea to learn all the pieces of the art first. The time to do this in his way of teaching varied between 7 months to three years.

Fior an average guy a black belt in many arts takes about 5 years. It's at that point that you start to be an effective fighter in your art. But Joe Lewis the Karate champion , got his Black belt very quickly too but was very effective.

Everything always has exceptions to the rule or to anyone else's experience. So you have to really decide for yourself.

[Gangsterfist]

Stu-

This is a good topic. One that I am aware of. I study wing chun and taiji at the moment. I focus mostly on wing chun, so my taiji does suffer from that. There are currently two other styles I want to learn in the near future. At this point in my wing chun training I do not think its wise to take on that thrid martial art yet. I am going to wait till this spring (approx 6 more months) to start cross training in 6 elbows. Then after a few years of training wc, taiji, 6elbows, then I am going to learn choy li fut (from my sifu). I also would like to get into some stick fighting. One of my brothers does kali/escrima and it has some good stuff that can blend very well with wing chun. I find that a lof of effective martial arts tend to have similar theories or concepts to wing chun. Arts like these can be cross trained. However, I also think that you should always stick with one thing and learn the whole complete system. If you ever wish to teach kung fu one day, do not cross train until you are ready to. It will throw you off, you will get confused, and when you go to pass it down it will no longer be wing chun, it will be modified from your cross training.

Cross-training is a good thing, you just have to go at it with a slow and steady pace. I have made the decision to cross train some styles the next couple of years (which could always change) because I am single and have little responsibilities, so now it would be ideal to cross train. Plus I am still kinda young I suppose. I could maybe start looking into teaching wing chun (my sifu wants us all to teach), but instead I want to cross train other arts while I have the, youth, energy, and ability to.

I would say at least 2 years into a system before you cross train. However, everyone learns on a different rate and on a different scale. So results will always vary.

[stonecrusher69]

Man you have been training since 1970's.That's a long time.I don't think there where a lot of Kung fu school around back then.You have been training a longtime in W.C.You must be very skilled.I started I think in 1981.I argree with your post.I remember myself when I started W.C. I used to sparr other styles like karate and northern shoalin ,I was not ready then And so little to understand what was going on.

[Ernie]

Cross training vs cross experience

I would have to agree that cross training to soon in any system is bad , but cross experiencing going out at playing with other people is good , this will bring clarity to your wing chun by seeing how it is really used , or by pointing out how much you need to work on , with in my first few months I was trying to pak and straight punch boxers and other ring types , sure I had next to no real wing chun but it gave me a reference point to measure my improvements .


But in the beginning and prior to my WC training I was doing it all , but as the years have gone by I don’t seem to be drawn to other paths as much , still keep my tools sharp and my conditioning learned from cross training ,


But it’s more fun to cross experience and refine


Better to cross condition then to just cross train


Cross playing is different you work with guys from different approaches and pick stuff up but you don’t get all serious , you stick with your core [ what ever that may be to you]

Go out and try the conditioning regiment of a thai guy or a boxer , do there prep work you would probably get a lot more out of that early on
Later branch out have fun experiment

I still have to get my ground game , and I’m looking forward to experiencing something new , if anything it will be a great work out

[foolinthedeck]

IMO
its bad enough trying to cross train chi sao, dummy, pole, knives, drills, forms, and conditioning. let alone any qi work... in order to properly cross train in other arts, you'd have to invest alot of time and energy..

having said that: everyone should cross train with salsa/tango/cha cha or something! i do and it gives a whole new perspective which includes the footwork, sensitivity and so on, but without the emphasis on attacks.

[AmanuJRY]

IMHO, if an individual has a grasp on 'key' aspects of fighting/martial arts - such as, body mechanics, attributes, physics, etc. - then there should not be any concern towards cross training. Using those key aspects as guidelines, the person would be able to analize and use the benefits of the cross training.

Although, too many arts - especially ones that are contradictory in theory - at one time would cause the person to spend too much time analizing and not enough time training.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by stonecrusher69
Man you have been training since 1970's.That's a long time.I don't think there where a lot of Kung fu school around back then.You have been training a longtime in W.C.You must be very skilled.I started I think in 1981.I argree with your post.I remember myself when I started W.C. I used to sparr other styles like karate and northern shoalin ,I was not ready then And so little to understand what was going on.

Never skilled enough and as Emin Boztepe told us in a seminar, it's not the number of years you trained but the number of hours put into those years. I didn't put in enough hours yet but I still keep trying.

Ray

[Vajramusti]

Ernie sez:

I would have to agree that cross training to soon in any system is bad , but cross experiencing going out at playing with other people is good , this will bring clarity to your wing chun by seeing how it is really used , or by pointing out how much you need to work on ,
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I like that distinction between cross training and cross experience.
Being able to adjust based on experience is an important part of martial growth, IMO.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
IMHO, if an individual has a grasp on 'key' aspects of fighting/martial arts - such as, body mechanics, attributes, physics, etc. - then there should not be any concern towards cross training. Using those key aspects as guidelines, the person would be able to analize and use the benefits of the cross training.


for the sake of efficiency. Why should I try to make my chin na work on the ground, spending countless hours figuring out proer positioning, etc. when I can cross train in bjj, where not only has all that work been done, they do it much better than I could anyway?

[Gangsterfist]

Originally posted by SevenStar
for the sake of efficiency. Why should I try to make my chin na work on the ground, spending countless hours figuring out proer positioning, etc. when I can cross train in bjj, where not only has all that work been done, they do it much better than I could anyway?

Its a matter of personal goals. If you wish to expand your art, and take the necessary time to learn to adapt it to another range is one thing. Cross training in another style is another. I think if you wish to teach your style of kung fu down to others you should learn it from all ranges and all aspects and train it every possible way, then when you teach it you can pass it down like it should be, a complete system. Not to say that cross training is bad. Its all about personal goals.

I also think a lot of systems have more to offer than the cirriculum gives. You must find out and experience those on your own. Part of learning kung fu is self discovery.

I do not cross train any grappling style, but I do train basic things like shrimping, triangling out, alligator crawls (to build attributes), going for the thumb, pressure points, etc so when I do go to the ground I am not clueless. I have also cross experienced with some wrestlers and jujitsu guys. So, I have a pretty good idea of how it works in a real situation. So, cross training in another style is not necessary IMHO. Especially when you have work, family, friends, social time, training time, class, etc etc.

If you want to cross train, thats cool and I hope it works out for everyone that does, but you can get a lot of the same attributes and training from working out and cross experiencing at the same time.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Its a matter of personal goals. If you wish to expand your art, and take the necessary time to learn to adapt it to another range is one thing. Cross training in another style is another. I think if you wish to teach your style of kung fu down to others you should learn it from all ranges and all aspects and train it every possible way, then when you teach it you can pass it down like it should be, a complete system. Not to say that cross training is bad. Its all about personal goals.

but in that case, it's not a complete system - you are trying to force it to become one.

I also think a lot of systems have more to offer than the cirriculum gives. You must find out and experience those on your own. Part of learning kung fu is self discovery.

part of learning any style is self discovery. cross training ventrues along that same path. I agree with what you said here though.

I do not cross train any grappling style, but I do train basic things like shrimping, triangling out, alligator crawls (to build attributes), going for the thumb, pressure points, etc so when I do go to the ground I am not clueless. I have also cross experienced with some wrestlers and jujitsu guys. So, I have a pretty good idea of how it works in a real situation. So, cross training in another style is not necessary IMHO. Especially when you have work, family, friends, social time, training time, class, etc etc.

I know that feeling - I have all of the above, but combine them. for example, my kid comes to class with me - he loves it. As for your grappling, you are in a sense crosstraining - anerlich aptly termed it cross playing. shrimping is definitely part of WC, correct? but through your cross playing, you've found it useful and drill it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
IMO
its bad enough trying to cross train chi sao, dummy, pole, knives, drills, forms, and conditioning. let alone any qi work... in order to properly cross train in other arts, you'd have to invest alot of time and energy..

that's actually a case to support cross training...

[Gangsterfist]

but in that case, it's not a complete system - you are trying to force it to become one.

Hmm, thats highly debateable about every system of combat. You see long range, trapping, closing the gap, clench, grappling, and ground fighting are all fighting. All of them are ranges of combat you will have to deal with at one time or another. New techs and concepts are thought of all the time. Practicing your style in that mindset automatically limits you. They say in wing chun don't chase the limbs, its ineffecient, but if you look at other maxims you could chase the limbs and it would follow the concepts of wign chun.

For example. A punch comes in at (any punch, doesn't matter). Lets say I am at trapping range, or at least close to it. I angle step, or side step the strike and strike the opponets fist or foream. Now that would normally be considered chasing limbs. However, I can also see it as retaining what comes in, striking the closest target with the closest weapon, simultanious attack and defense, etc. All of those are maxims of wing chun. Who is to say which is right and which is wrong? I would say its up to the practitioner to decide whether it was a right answer or a wrong answer.

The theory of any martial art is limitless in application. The actual application of course will not be limitless. It is up to practitioner to make the system work. If someone trains muay thai and can't beat up a middle schooler, then their muay thai sucks, the system cannot be blamed for that.

BJJ, and wing chun have similar concepts with centerline theory and controlling the opponet. The major difference is that one is on the ground and one is on your feet. Who is to say that you cannot find ways to use bjj standing up and wing chun on the ground? I say you can find ways to make both arts work that way.

Of course wing chun will always strive to be in trapping range, and bjj will always strive to be on the ground. Training to transition to those ranges and then keeping your opponet there would be ideal. That is where both arts share the control aspect.

So, to me, you can cross train in ways of building attributes, working out, sparring, exploring new theory, and hard work rather than run out and go enroll in another martial arts school to cover all ranges of combat and be effecient at it.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Hmm, thats highly debateable about every system of combat. You see long range, trapping, closing the gap, clench, grappling, and ground fighting are all fighting. All of them are ranges of combat you will have to deal with at one time or another. New techs and concepts are thought of all the time. Practicing your style in that mindset automatically limits you. They say in wing chun don't chase the limbs, its ineffecient, but if you look at other maxims you could chase the limbs and it would follow the concepts of wign chun.

I don't think it limits you at all - it makes you take a realistic look at your style. Sure, you encounter all ranges in a fight, but not every style was designed for that range. Take bjj for example. We don't punch standing up. all self defense techniques and stand up entries, etc. rely on exploiting your strikes - I lower level under your strike, rush you asyou are off balance, jam your strike, etc.

as an aside, I agree that chasing limbs is inefficient, but has it's usefulness.


The theory of any martial art is limitless in application. The actual application of course will not be limitless. It is up to practitioner to make the system work. If someone trains muay thai and can't beat up a middle schooler, then their muay thai sucks, the system cannot be blamed for that.

true. On the same token though, you can't apply MT to ground grappling. ground striking, but not ground grappling.

BJJ, and wing chun have similar concepts with centerline theory and controlling the opponet. The major difference is that one is on the ground and one is on your feet. Who is to say that you cannot find ways to use bjj standing up and wing chun on the ground? I say you can find ways to make both arts work that way.

you can use bjj standing - there are takedowns and throws you learn. It's a waste of time to try and find standing striking within it though.

Of course wing chun will always strive to be in trapping range, and bjj will always strive to be on the ground. Training to transition to those ranges and then keeping your opponet there would be ideal. That is where both arts share the control aspect.

not true about bjj always striving to be on the ground - the self defensee aspect has alot of stand up, just really no striking. control is definitely a prime tennant though.

[Gangsterfist]

Sevenstar-

Okay, I see your points. However, you mean to tell me every bjj guy does not train any kind of striking? They all rely on counter-moves?

I am not saying that training in muay thai or western boxing is needed to train stand up. I am saying there are things you can train outside your art, but still at the same time within your art to build attributes and skills against all ranges of combat.

For example, I do not train in a grappling style, but I do train with grapplers, train drills that help me on the ground (like the ones mentioned previously on this thread), and I train to use sensitivity, body structure, and micro movements on the ground with all my taiji, karate, and wing chun knowledge I have gained over the years. I can find wing chun theory in my ground training and ground techs, I am not saying its wing chun but some stuff is still there. Any complete system will have things like this, IMHO. Centerline theory is still there on the ground, you just have your arms and your legs to cover your center since you are on your back/stomach/side on the ground.

I also agree though, bjj training is good stuff. So if you do have the time and money then thats cool. For me I like to stick with something until I learn it inside and out, then I venture off to train other arts. There are some other arts I definately want to train in before I die, so I understand the want, and usefullness of cross training. However, I think if you cross train this and that your whole life, you do miss out on some aspects of the art. Again, its all about your personal goals I suppose.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by SevenStar
for the sake of efficiency. Why should I try to make my chin na work on the ground, spending countless hours figuring out proer positioning, etc. when I can cross train in bjj, where not only has all that work been done, they do it much better than I could anyway?

First, let me elaborate my statement slightly. When I said crosstraining should not be a concern, I meant that both ways. With understanding of the 'key' concepts, it doesn't really matter one way or the other, it becomes separate paths to the same end (one maybe shorter than the other, but ???).

Second, with the 'key' concepts in mind, even if you cross train bjj to support your chin na, when in action is it chin na or bjj??

Style, lineage, form....all these things start to blur when the 'key' elements are brought into focus.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW- It is not easy to generalize about wing chun-given it's diversities in the details of learning, understanding, practice and details.

There may be a more complete art- but I have not come accross it
- though I have kept my eyes fairly reasonably open fpra long time..

Apparently-some folks enjoy mixing arts. If they feel a need to do so I see no problems with that.You do what you gotta do- depending on where you are and what is available. Better to have a great bjj teacher than a poor wc teacher etc.

But FWIW, I have found wing chun to be as complete an art as I can find. It is not dependent on fixed responses to described
positions or contexts...horizontal, vertical, in between.

An important key is not to play the other person's game-grappling a grappler, jabbing a boxer, hip throwing a judoka,
leg kicking a MT person at a MT favored range.

Ofcourse, one should experiment with adjusting their kwoon experience against others outside their kwoon or style. I like Ernie's distinction between cross experience and cross training.
One should be focussed in whatever task is at hand.

I understand and admire folks who enter the ring or cage or whatever- where things are unpredictable and the challenge is great.

But one can develop reliable focus over time and adjust to varying challenges over time.

Often I hear on kfo, critiques on how wc folks dont really try out their stuff in non cooperating situations and against non cooperating folks. How do you get unversal samples of what all wc folks do
for these generalizations.. If the basis is the various reality contests- there is sampling error on what wing chun is about.

I know wc folks who have used their wc in real situations quite
successfully. Most of these folks didnt have their encounters or testing filmed or reported given the implications of law and litigation.Nor did they summarize their activities on kfo or rec.ma or whatever. Accolades from KFO and lists dont mean much to some folks.

And often records in different sports are not comparable- some top flight win-loss mma records (sakuraba included) would look like a journeyman's record in first class pro boxing. Different strokes for different folks.

To me the wing chun learning process is endless- as you keep
solving real puzzles in theory, practice and application.

Finis. Gracias.

[reneritchie]

Cross training doesn't really mean anything, IMHO.

If someone said they wanted to train WCK and Tai Ji (for example), I'd advise against it.

If someone said they wanted to train MMA, I'd advise them to do it.

What's the difference? Overall methodology.

IMHO, if you train two arts with different methodologies with different teachers (or even the same teacher who treats them as independant things), you will achieve sub-optimal results.

On the other hand, if you train 3 or 4 different arts with one coach as part of an overall methodology (consistent strategy and tactics to achieve a single goal), you could achieve very good results.

The goal of the person, however, could change this. If they want to be a walking historical preservation, then they can learn to mimick a bunch of arts and be happy regardless. If they want to have something that will serve them well in one-on-one barehanded brawling, it will be a different situation. If they want to make a living as an MA teacher, they may just want to learn a bunch of popular stuff for kids classes, cardio-MA, and whatever, and then another situation exists...

[reneritchie]

And FWIW, WCK is already MMA. It mixes several previous systems and evolved on from there. Nothing new under the sun.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
And often records in different sports are not comparable- some top flight win-loss mma records (sakuraba included) would look like a journeyman's record in first class pro boxing. Different strokes for different folks.

that's really not an issue - doesn't matter if he's only had two fights - it's that he has pressure tested himself against varied styles or opponents. At some point, all MA should do this, I think. as far as records go, it's for experience purposes. you may not want to train under a person who has had no actual experience. such records are a way to verify.

To me the wing chun learning process is endless- as you keep
solving real puzzles in theory, practice and application.

such is the case with all MA, no?

[Vajramusti]

Comments on Seven Star's post in brackets:

Originally posted by Vajramusti
And often records in different sports are not comparable- some top flight win-loss mma records (sakuraba included) would look like a journeyman's record in first class pro boxing. Different strokes for different folks.

that's really not an issue - doesn't matter if he's only had two fights - it's that he has pressure tested himself against varied styles or opponents. At some point, all MA should do this, I think. as far as records go, it's for experience purposes. you may not want to train under a person who has had no actual experience. such records are a way to verify.(Seven Star)

((Pressure testing- yes- no single testing system applies to all.
And the beneficiary of testing is the practitoner- not neccessarily
the spectator or the second hand commentator IMO. Some folks are not after trophies))

To me the wing chun learning process is endless- as you keep
solving real puzzles in theory, practice and application.

such is the case with all MA, no?(Seven Star).

(( I really dont think so. Opinions can vary but FWIW IMHO- MAs vary widely in the clarity and logic and theory in their foundations.))

[SevenStar]

notice I didn't recommend any singular form. could be working as a bouncer, ring fighting, etc. but it should be something. The benefit is entirely the practitioner's, however, that benefit will also become the spectator's when the practitioner must teach the spectator. As for trophies, that's not what I'm talking about. My mother has all of my trophies and medals- they don't mean anything to me, but she likes to display them in their house. What matters is what you did to get the trophies, or, even to not get the trophies. I didn't say you have to test yourself and win, only that you need to test yourself.

I agree that many styles vary in the clarity of their theories, but their paths are endless, regardless. To be honest, I think the ultra clarity of theories can be somewhat of a hinderance, but practice and application? priceless.

[Vajramusti]

Seven Star sez:

To be honest, I think the ultra clarity of theories can be somewhat of a hinderance, but practice and application? priceless.
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Agree if the theory remains in the head- or is not understood and does not reach out to the extremities.

Practice can be wrong practice- right practice needs a standard
and verification in application as well.