Sparring in class-different styles problem

[harry_the_monk]

Hi there,
I am still really new to WC and although I practise my SLT daily, which I enjoy because I keep noticing areas for improvement.
My only problem is with the sparring. I only get the chance to go to class once a week. Whenever we spar I'm pretty sure that the guy I'm against(normally the same fella) is doing different styles of MA... this has made my sparring lose WC and kinda revert back to a half karate half boxing stance.(because I am stronger in that stance due to my beginner status in WC.)
Anyone got any advice on what I should do?(i.e. keep in my stronger stance or try to get the WC stance until I become strong in it but get a good whupping at the same time??)
Thing is while I keep getting whupped its not doing my confidence in the art much good.

Sorry if this sounds a bit negative, but I really do enjoy the internal parts of it and trying to get my form sorted. Its just as a beginner I need some advice on sparring, I'm sure I will enjoy it a bit more when I don't keep getting it straight in the kisser.(or am i just being a wimp?)

Anyway...whatever feedback I get will be much appreciated.
Peace...

[TjD]

:)

how do you expect to learn wing chun if you dont use it?

if you dont use your stance while sparring it wont get better anyhow... also, how long have you done karate or whatever you sparred in previously? and how long have you done wing chun?

if you dont use the stance, all the rest of your wing chun will be worthless - you might as well go back to learning karate


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[harry_the_monk]

Yeah I kinda thought that I should hold out in my WC stance(centre-line etc.) except I'm not that fast and I try pulling my punches, and the other guy seems to be going for it full-on with what I recognise as boxing right hooks Karate kicks etc.

With my hands going out in a straight punch(which is what we've been taught.) I can barely hit the guy. When I go into boxing stance and fake a couple of jabs though I tend to just about get some body shots in.
I've only been doing WC for two months now, I learnt Karate for about a year but faught with it for about 10 years that and the bits of boxing and jui-jitsu I learnt of my uncles. Thing is if this other guy in class can use what he likes on me(he's pretty new too) surely I'm allowed to do the same?(apart from throws)
Or is part of my attending class suppposed to be learning how to keep a cool head while being beaten senseless??? :D
I think you're right I am being a wimp aren't I... :rolleyes:
Oh well, anyone got any WC moves I can try on this guy???

Oh yeah, meant to add I'm only talking about my guard stance, my feet I have no idea what to do with so I just keep 50/50 and try to root myself
Peace... :)

[This message was edited by harry_the_monk on 07-27-01 at 08:03 AM.]

[TjD]

wing chun takes a lot of balls ;) you gotta rush in there, so you can hit him with the centerline punches - most people who fight in a karate/TKD style wont want to let you in close :)

theres the proverb:
recieve what comes
escort what goes
and if theres an opening, rush in

use your stance, get up in his face and use those straight punches; and uproot him :) he'll find if he wants to stop getting hit/uprooted he'll have to come to the center

it takes a lot of fearlessness and a cool head to do this :) practice it, remember your going to a wing chun class to do wing chun :) not box


after 2 months i really think its a bit early for you to be sparring with your wing chun... have you learned any chum kiu? or how to step? ask your sifu how to step in, talk to him about your problems :) im sure he'll be able to help better than an online forum


peace
trav

what some people call "dishonorable", i call "not being stupid"

[mun hung]

If you only attend class once a week, and you've only been going for about two months, (8 or 9 lessons) you probably have'nt learned enough Wing Chun yet to be able to sparr - unless you're training for long periods of time in the class in addition to training at home. Sparring against boxers and karate practitioners can be the most rewarding experience. Chances are, you won't be fighting another Wing Chun practitioner on the street. So you might as well get used to fighting everyone else. IMHO, the best way to sparr. Keep using your Wing Chun and nothing else. Good luck!

[mysteri]

i had the same problem when i first started my jow ga style of kung fu. when i first started sparring a little in and out of class, i immediately wanted to use the jow ga techniques that i had learned. but i was not deep enough into the style at that time to realize that i hadn't learned enough to complement my techniques.(ie. appropriate stepping, bridging the gap) automatically when you decide to spar or fight, you are representing your current style. if in a fight, use ALL you know b/c your life is on the line. if sparring(a learning process), try to get used to the wing chun techniques that you've learned. more important than techniques in any style is your mobility. if you don't know how to bridge the gap btwn you and you opponent, your techniques will be useless and futile. though i am not wing chun, i think that you will learn how to bridge the gap more when you learn the cum kiu form. i think you learn stepping, which is very important in techniques application. so for now, i would not suggest the 50/50 stance until you're comfortable enough to let the guy come to you so you can deflect his attacks. instead, use simle elementary straight steps(or 45 degree stepping) to attack his centerline with chain punches(or series of straight punches) to uproot your opponent. if he tries to run, follow. if he tries to side step, change directions and continue your attack. straight heel kicks also are very good in chasing your opponent. most karate and TKD guys don't have sophisticated stepping skills, so they will jus be run straight back. try this simple tactic and lemme know how you do. NEVER turn your back to your opponent and always keep your centerline on him, preferably attacking his centerline and disrupting his timing. be swift! good luck!

In a fight you should never stick to principles; they should stick to you!

[Gluteus Maximus]

Harry, your school is getting you to spar way too early! What a waste of precious class time, when you should be learning and consolidating skills which sparring, at this stage, will only undermine. You need to have your confidence built up by lots of chi sao before attempting any sparring.

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

[harry_the_monk]

Can I just say that all the advice you guys have given is really cool, I don't actually have my next class for a while yet, but will try to work out some combinations given the info you have given. :)

I also felt that I may be sparring too early, but it is what we do from the first class, even b4 we really learn any proper WC.

I haven't learnt Chi Sau yet, but will be in a couple of months I guess, so hopefully this bridging the gap thing might fall into place.

I'll let you know what happens after my next sparring encounter....

(one more thing sorry)
Max, you say that I could be wasting precious class time, what else could we be doing???
We do about 20 mins form, 20 mins stretch, and 20 mins spar....is that not normal practise in kung fu??[I do not mean any disrespect, but I am genuinely curious.]
Peace...

[This message was edited by harry_the_monk on 07-28-01 at 07:37 PM.]

[Sharky]

you spend 20mins of class time stretching? In a wing chun class? Why? You should be doing partner drills, lap sau pak sau and maybe lok sau but i think you should learn that after u've done those two.

Good luck

Edd

My anus is superior™

[Scott]

First,

Stop telling his teacher how to run a class.

If you're fighting someone who's just goofing off while he fights, basically, stick to Wing Chun and be happy in the fact that in a year or two you will be completely dominating him because he's not using anything he learns--and you will be. Until then, stick in their and work on Wing Chun while sparring. Read up on how you SHOULD fight when using Wing chun.

For an example, you can neutralize his kicks by closing the gap and getting in close. This hard to do. One of the reasons for the back leg Wing Chun stance is so that you can move in and do techniques at the same time without losing balance, so try that. Move in, block a kick if he throws it, then use Wing Chun. Ideally, that is what would happen, but.. *shrug* If you aren't good enough to make that happen, keep training.

For a good story again those sorts of high kicks, here is something I did that worked pretty well against a kickboxer in a sparring session.

It should be noted that this guy isn't very good =P

He went in for a high kick, presumably to my chest or head. I blocked with the two handed Wu Sau/Bong Sau block and stepped in, slid my hands out from under/over his legs, and did a double palm strike into his chest. Worked like magic =P He didn't fall down, but he did run into a wall that was a foot or two behind him.

-Scott

"Life is hard, but so am I." -- The Eels.

[Gluteus Maximus]

Harry asked:

"Max, you say that I could be wasting precious class time, what else could we be doing???
We do about 20 mins form, 20 mins stretch, and 20 mins spar....is that not normal practise in kung fu??[I do not mean any disrespect, but I am genuinely curious.]"

No worries Harry, I'm happy to expand on that. This is the way I look at it anyway. I agree with Sharky with regard to drills.

Along with forms practice, drills are the building blocks for a good foundation. Working on the movements from Sil Lum Tao, incorporating them into drills, experimenting with getting the right feeling of using them in different contexts. Plus footwork.

You need a solid foundation in Wing Chun before you can spar without reverting to non-Wing Chun techniques. To use Wing Chun, you need to be relaxed, and this comes from the confidence gained by drilling and practising Chi Sao (OK, too early for you to practise that yet, but that will be the a major step towards useful sparring in the future).

Drawing an analogy with driving a car, what would be the point of a beginner driver tackling city traffic without having learnt the basics first? Or to use another analogy, throwing a ten year old into University?


Scott said:

"Stop telling his teacher how to run a class."

Sorry Scott, no disrespect intended to his teacher, but Harry asked a question and I answered it truthfully.

Max

To know the unseen, you must first learn to see.

[harry_the_monk]

Yup max, was just curious for a different point of view thats all (have to keep an open mind-helps to understand things I think.) I feel like I am not so much a beginner driver driving in city traffic, but more like a passenger seeing how the driver is doing it for the moment... I guess the actual driving comes later.

Scott, thanx 4 that like the idea of that double palm. Might try that also(my head is already at his chest height so I reckon that could work although the double-palm would go straight to his ab region I reckon). :)

Hiya sharky long time no speak, hows it going m8 did u find what u were after in the end?

P.S.--what do you mean by drills?can I practise them at home?

Peace...

[Sharky]

hi harry -still no teacher but i got a whole gym thing going on in my garage so i'm working out there. gonna wait till i get my exam results to see whether i'm staying at home4another year, or moving to south wales in a month or so - if so it isn't work finding the school of my dreams only to have to leave it!

Regarding the drills - they are partner drills, so u er, need a partner.

The way i see it, you should be "working up" to sparring. You practice forms, then u should practice 2man drills, to get you used to contact with a person. There are the 3 main drills i have mensioned, and i think of these leading up to chi sau.

Chi sau is the stepping stone between forms and free fighting.

You should also be complemnting this with a lot of footwork practice. If you have learnt stuff like huen bo and arrow walking, practice it at home - i should but i don't cos i find it sooooo boring :(

From what you've said your teacher isn't teaching you in the way i've come across. Are you sparring with huge boxing gloves on? Or open palmed mitts? Open mitts are they way to go for wing chun. When i went to austin goh's in london he had me sparring pretty much in the 1st 2 weeks, i did ok but i knew no ma, just was kinda winging it. didn't really help me much tbh. fun tho :D

Good luck - im sure your teacher knows what he's doing. But 1hr a weeks lesson time ain't enough man.

My anus is superior™

[kungfu cowboy]

You most definitely should not be sparring yet! You need to build a foundation of your stance, sensitivity, and the ingrained neural patterns of movement from dan chi sao, stance, pak sao, etc. Jumping into sparring before allowing these things to happen is just a waste of time. You are learning little, if any, real martial art. I would suggest you find a new school.

[Sharky]

i read somewhere recently that in the USA, "official" boxing clubs do not allow their students to spar for six months of hard training. so there you go, and that be WESTERN BOXING - not any of this patter cake crap :D

Edd

My anus is superior™

[tiger_1]

my friend sparing inside wing chungers and wing chun vs onthers kung fu practicioner is nessery and is good . without that you can be only lose in traning and posible bad road of your progres in kung fu - just my oppinion tiger_1 :)

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