Can CLF masters really fight?

[Zaveesha]

Hi there!!!

I may not be political correct but I would like to know if these people( masters ) Wong Doc Fai, Chen Yongfa and others mentioned here -can really fight? Can anybody give some examples of their masters fighting records(street, challanges with other MA practitioners , tournaments - please don't give me light contact matches :) )?

There's been here written a lot of CLF methodologies, techniques, animals etc. ( some interesting stuff at least theoretically )but how can we know if they are serious people ( morally and skilled in fighting at hight level )?They teach martial arts not ballet ,don't they?

If you train at boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, judo, sambo, wrestling you know at least you coach's tournament record or you can sparr with the trainer - in case of many TMA the only thing you got is ... well trust that they know what they do ? Like Kyokushin great Mass Oyama once said
"... There can be no proof without real fighting. Without proof there is no trust. Without trust there is no respect. This is the definition in the world of Martial Arts"

Because I've seen here lots of arguments between CLF practitioners I decided to start this post - tell who your master/instructor is , what's his/her fighting experiance -write something that proves that your sifu is a real deal.

Grigoriy

[ed78]

? um...:rolleyes:

[Cody]

****ing contests are still ****ing contests, even when they use real ****.
That's my feeling about the matter. I'm speaking as a generalist, and do not choose to offer further documentation.

As far as capability, if a master can't defend himself (and that doesn't necessarily mean winning All the time, or having it publically known all the time), then he/she is no master. This includes using the highest techniques in MA as they apply to the art, in this case, CLF. Unless, they are lying about their training, or have fallen ill in some way, a CLF master should be able to fight. It's a fighting art. The students fight with different degrees of contact as part of the training and the competitions.
Go to Google. Surf on the high seas, and read, and see little bits of video.

take care to stay on your raft while you're surfing,
Cody

[sean_stonehart]

Troll rating... 1.1

[Fu-Pow]

There's really only one way to answer your question and that is to formally challenge one of the CLF masters you mentioned to a fight.

If you're not willing to do that then you are a hypocrit because you expect someone else to qualify themselves by fighting but you are unwilling to do the same. :rolleyes:

[MasterKiller]

I guess it depends on what their high score is... (http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=2544)

[Zaveesha]

Hi !!!

Dear Fu Pow - I was asking people who post here and accuse and discredit other masters of not having fighting skills at all. I was not disrespecting or discrediting them.

For example -in similar situation when I ask my judo friend if this judo trainer good -he answers that the trainer fought here and there ,won medals -so you know a little about qualification of that guy.

If I ask if this master can fight -you say -fight him to check it - well that's a nice answer but would it prove master's skills if he fights me and I'm nothing special ?I don't think so.
That's why I am asking people here for some hard data or histories proving their masters' skills.

Fu Pow you called me hypocrit - well I don't teach martial arts -they do ,why should I prove that I can fight?

So keep asking is your master fight proven ? Where did he get his practical fighting knowledge? Do I ask for much?

Grigoriy

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Zaveesha
Hi !!!

Dear Fu Pow - I was asking people who post here and accuse and discredit other masters of not having fighting skills at all. I was not disrespecting or discrediting them.

Actually that's not what you said at all:


may not be political correct but I would like to know if these people( masters ) Wong Doc Fai, Chen Yongfa and others mentioned here -can really fight? Can anybody give some examples of their masters fighting records(street, challanges with other MA practitioners , tournaments - please don't give me light contact matches )?

You're pretty darn explicit there. You are questioning the validity of the masters fighting skill. Don't try to blow smoke.



If I ask if this master can fight -you say -fight him to check it - well that's a nice answer but would it prove master's skills if he fights me and I'm nothing special ?I don't think so.
That's why I am asking people here for some hard data or histories proving their masters' skills.

If you think you are "nothing special" then I suggest you start training and learning and stop questioning other peoples abilities.



Fu Pow you called me hypocrit - well I don't teach martial arts -they do ,why should I prove that I can fight?

You are putting the onus of proof of fighting ability from yourself to the so called "masters." These masters have nothing to prove. By calling themselves kung fu master they imply they have fighting skill. The onus is on you to prove that they are not. There is one simple way to prove that they are not....ask them to "gong sau" or test hands.



So keep asking is your master fight proven ? Where did he get his practical fighting knowledge? Do I ask for much?

Grigoriy

Some masters have never been in a street fight. Does that not make them master?

Answer: There is no answer. You refer to a standard that doesn't really exist. And you basically miss the whole point of kung fu training.

Key: It isn't only to fight.

[TenTigers]

Ok, (I still can't believe I actually read this thread) I'll give you an example-Doc Fai-Wong opened up his CLF school when he was still in his teens, and is credited with being one of the youngest Sifus to ever have opened in SanFrancisco. Back then, if you put up your banner, people checked you out. 30 somewhat years later, he's still here. Nuff said.

[once ronin]

Being connected to the community any school can be opened for years.

The question show go at one's peak can they fight? Now these 2 guys may an excuse, they are too old to fight.

Find one of their top young boys and have a few rounds.

One of Doc Fai's teachers was this.

If he couldnt kill you with his hands he would use his daggers, if not he also was a registered marksman and carried a 45.

At his end days Doc Dai's teacher was talking to some of the ghost.

People who know this would recognise this.

As for the muay thai and kick boxing stuff its just as good a martial arts for what the practioner puts in.

Mas Oyama did put his time in training and there is only 1 Korean who did that.

If you want to try good CLF fighters, look into a Tam Sam linage.

[once ronin]

Oh, in the new territories when Ho Ngau walked in the room, Chan Yong Fa had to move on the side.

Good CLF fighters are also in Hong Kong with the double 7.

[Eddie]

Few things,

actually, proving your self in the ring doesn’t mean you are a good MARTIAL ARTIST. At best, it means you are a good athlete, which (in my opinion) is also very important in today’s society, but probably less important to the real martial arts world.

Most of tournament fighting (full contact) these days are going towards the San Shou rules, which do favour the athlete more than the martial artist. Don’t get me wrong, I am an avid san shou supporter, but I do realise that its not the end all be all.

Many of those guys you mentioned, are old, and just the fact that they are still able to execute some movements correct and with the right power etc, tells me that they did put in their time and efforts when they were younger. Never met either of them, but I don’t doubt that they once were able to fight (if they aren’t now), but then again, I don’t really care to much. They obviously have some thing good to teach, and they know more than most of us do.

You are wrong when you say that Boxing, Muay Thai and some other fighting coaches prove themselves in the ring before they start to become trainers. Where I come from, one of the best boxing coaches never fought competitively. For some reason, he is able to teach his fighters how to fight without having been a champion himself.

Do yourself a favour and look into CLF. You will be surprised and amazed to see how well structured this style is. With enough dedication to this art, anyone can become a very skilled and highly proficient fighter and even better, a skilled martial artist.

But is kung fu all about fighting?

Finally, after years of fighting competitively, probably some incorrect training methods, and a few other factors, my own body is a wreck. I broke a few ribs in my time, and I still feel it when it gets cold. I am having arthritis and joint pains in my knees, my elbows and my knuckles. I suffer from constant migraines and head aches, and even had few black outs. My latest thing is that I am having bad kidney pains and lower back pain at the same time. Most of these symptoms are caused from trying to prove that a martial artist should be a fighter first, and a stylist later. I’m only 30, but I sometimes feel like I’m 60. When I look at pictures of Masters Chan Yong Fa and Wong Doc Fei , I realise that they are true martial artists who knew that to keep their bodies healthy is the most important thing. Even more important sometimes than to prove you are the best fighter.

On Saturday it was the anniversary of some Japanese invasion into China. I was listening to a speech which my northern Shaolin teacher made- He said that by remembering this day, we shouldn’t do so to hate the Japanese or to remember the people who died, but to remind ourselves that we should always be strong enough to stand up for ourselves so that no one ever just walk over us. Don’t be weak. This include, keeping your body healthy. The more I look at it, the more I realise that it is not about fighting.

Go to Thailand and see. Many of those little fighters only fight until they reach their mid 20’s. There after, many of them suffer from some sort of damage, and very few of them can still fight when they reach 35.

I think both Chan Yong Fa and Wong Doc Fei have schools in Poland. Just call them up, attend some of their classes and seminars, and maybe check for yourself.

ed

[Ou Ji]

I find it curious that only in the martial arts world a teacher or coach is expected to be a champion. Look at sports (boxing, football, basketball, baseball), the Olympics, and even colleges and universities.

Most people will take lessons from an art teacher if his art looks good and he teaches well. I doubt if anyone ever asks how many awards they won or how many paintings they sold.

[TenTigers]

I think you're missing the big picture here. The real question is can Batman take Spiderman? I think ya'll know what I'm getin at.

[SifuX-HSK]

once ronin,

hey what's up? can you define what you meant that doc fai's teacher was talking to ghosts?

did you mean he was just old and ready to pass away, or were you insinuating that he was somehow senile?

speaking of doc fai, he has never been in a real street fight in his life as far as i know, because i am closer to him than he even knows. i can validate his claims because i am in close contact with his seniors.

but my question is, is do you know if he's been challenged to fight or not, and if so what happened?

now, i have a question. what is a choy lee fut fighter? the obvious is not the answer i am looking for.

but in my opinion, you have paper sifu's- people who have never had a real street confrontation ever, and then you have certain with verifiable fighting histories. those are the kind of sifu's who don't talk too much about fighting and just get down to business.

i have a friend who is a 3rd degree black belt in tae kwon do, and coward down in a real street confrontation. that person realized he didn't truly know how to use his style in a combat situation. that person had never had a street fight in his life but is an incredible studio teacher. once again, a paper sifu.

my sifu's background is very well known, and is part of the reason i chose to take him as a teacher. he knew how to fight and use choy lee fut effective in real life situations, and has always passed down that knowledge.

my sifu is about to turn 60 soon, but still moves as if he is in his mid 30's, has not taught the newer generations as i and my classmates and seniors had trained under him when he was in his 30's. our training was a lot tougher and more rigorous.
i trained like this with my sifu everyday. he was more hardcore, and in that fighter mode when i learned from him. but now that he is older you can still see the fighter within him.

ok thanks

sifuX-HSK

[SiuHung]

Ask Tat Mau Wong...

[once ronin]

As a kid in the late 1950's I remebered this old man talking clearly to 5 people when there was only 3 people standing there.

He was not senile, he memory was very clear as to names, places and times to meet.

I met the old man only a few times over some years and remembered he also did some sun da or geeh da.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Cody

As far as capability, if a master can't defend himself (and that doesn't necessarily mean winning All the time, or having it publically known all the time), then he/she is no master. This includes using the highest techniques in MA as they apply to the art, in this case, CLF. Unless, they are lying about their training, or have fallen ill in some way, a CLF master should be able to fight. It's a fighting art.

What you should be able to do and what you actually can do are not always the same...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
There's really only one way to answer your question and that is to formally challenge one of the CLF masters you mentioned to a fight.

If you're not willing to do that then you are a hypocrit because you expect someone else to qualify themselves by fighting but you are unwilling to do the same. :rolleyes:

not exactly. As a teacher, you should have some sort of crediential. As a student, the same isn't expected. If he is only a student, then he's not being a hypocrite at all. He just wants to make sure he's training at a place that can teach him what he's looking for.

sticking with the sport examples that he mentioned, I wouldn't train at a judo club whose coach had never competed. I wouldn't train under thai boxing coaches with no ring experience. Why can't the same be asked of a sifu?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie

Finally, after years of fighting competitively, probably some incorrect training methods, and a few other factors, my own body is a wreck. I broke a few ribs in my time, and I still feel it when it gets cold. I am having arthritis and joint pains in my knees, my elbows and my knuckles. I suffer from constant migraines and head aches, and even had few black outs. My latest thing is that I am having bad kidney pains and lower back pain at the same time. Most of these symptoms are caused from trying to prove that a martial artist should be a fighter first, and a stylist later. I’m only 30, but I sometimes feel like I’m 60. When I look at pictures of Masters Chan Yong Fa and Wong Doc Fei , I realise that they are true martial artists who knew that to keep their bodies healthy is the most important thing. Even more important sometimes than to prove you are the best fighter.

that's likely either an issue with the methods you were using or how much you are competing. There are several on the forum who are pushing that age and still compete and train. I know someone who fought a full contact match to celebrate his 50th bday. hard training doesn't automatically equate to injury.

The more I look at it, the more I realise that it is not about fighting.

I agree with that, but at the same time, it is a part of it, and not a part that should be so easily overlooked.

Go to Thailand and see. Many of those little fighters only fight until they reach their mid 20’s. There after, many of them suffer from some sort of damage, and very few of them can still fight when they reach 35.

let's not forget that these guys started when they were about 6 and have had well over 100 fights by the time they reach that age. Anybody fighting that much would be in the same shape. In most other countries, fights are nowhere near as frequent.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie

Go to Thailand and see. Many of those little fighters only fight until they reach their mid 20’s. There after, many of them suffer from some sort of damage, and very few of them can still fight when they reach 35.


injuries (http://martial.best.vwh.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=32471)

[sayloc]

The LKH branch seem to be great fulll contact fighters.

[Sow Choy]

Choy Lay Fut Fighters...

The ones that I know of who were known for fighting (full-contact matches).

Li Siu Hung, Mak Hin Fai, Tat Mau Wong, Both Lacey brothers, Shane Lacey, Lai Hung & John Wai

These are just the ones that pop in my head at the moment... I know I forgot alot of names...

But I think it would be which CLF sifu has never fought, because I think most have practiced full-contact let alone compete in it. But CLF is a big family with new schools popping up everywhere.

Back in Hong Kong, GM Lee Koon Hung was known for training alot of top fighters... GM Chan Sau Chung (TSPKM, GM Wong Sheung Lung (Wing Chun) and GM Lee Koon Hung (CLF) had started a Hong Kong Full-Contact team... But due to various reasons it only lasted a short time...

I would recommend checking the various webpages or sending an email to the sifus if you are really interested in their experience and could not get the info from their site. If you ask politely, you should get a response...

Joe

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by SevenStar
sticking with the sport examples that he mentioned, I wouldn't train at a judo club whose coach had never competed. I wouldn't train under thai boxing coaches with no ring experience. Why can't the same be asked of a sifu? Would you train under someone who competed a lot but lost every match?

[David Jamieson]

he answers that the trainer fought here and there ,won medals -so you know a little about qualification of that guy.

actually, you only know a little about the history that your friend is telling you about the guy.

If you want to know his fight qualifications, then you should cross hands, or cross hands with his senior student. That will clear things up fast for you.

Can you fight? Do you have a record? Have you been diligent and consistent in your practice so that even now you can perform in the ring or on the street?

Consider what you are asking before you ask this stuff.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
actually, you only know a little about the history that your friend is telling you about the guy.

If you want to know his fight qualifications, then you should cross hands, or cross hands with his senior student. That will clear things up fast for you.

Can you fight? Do you have a record? Have you been diligent and consistent in your practice so that even now you can perform in the ring or on the street?

Consider what you are asking before you ask this stuff.

Bingo!;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Would you train under someone who competed a lot but lost every match?

yes.

[Sow Choy]

Before you cross hands...

Realise that you may be crossing certain lines... I have had a few people come in and ask about the school and were very rude and obnoxious... I turned them down when they wanted to learn.

So depending upon the sifu and the way things are handled... you may not only get your butt kicked, but you may be kicked out and thought of as rude.

If you think about it... i know some who are really good at kung fu, but are lousy at teaching it. And some who are not so good at kung fu but great at teaching. the ability to get people to do great things is not easy and takes a certain kind of personality.

So... my advice is to see what the sifus students have done, because you would be among them...

Joe

[Cody]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cody

As far as capability, if a master can't defend himself (and that doesn't necessarily mean winning All the time, or having it publically known all the time), then he/she is no master. This includes using the highest techniques in MA as they apply to the art, in this case, CLF. Unless, they are lying about their training, or have fallen ill in some way, a CLF master should be able to fight. It's a fighting art.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

posted by Seven Star in reply

What you should be able to do and what you actually can do are not always the same...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, yes. Given extenuating circumstances, that is so. Otherwise, the person has fallen short and the title of honor (as it refers particularly to the higher echelons of mastery) means nothing.

Cody

[Fu-Pow]

So... my advice is to see what the sifus students have done, because you would be among them...

Good point!

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by Sow Choy

If you think about it... i know some who are really good at kung fu, but are lousy at teaching it. And some who are not so good at kung fu but great at teaching. the ability to get people to do great things is not easy and takes a certain kind of personality.

Joe

I think this is an extremely important point that Joe raises. Being an expert at the content does not default into an expert in pedagogy, and vice versa.

So before you ask a Sifu of his fighting skill, watch his students, first.

-123

[phoenix-eye]

I agree

How many big name professional boxers do you know are coaches? Many of these were not well known or prolific fighters but they have skill in maximising other people's potential.

Do you think Mike Tyson would be a good boxing coach? Personally, I don't think so.....

Ideally I would like to have both in equal measure but I would definitely rather learn from a good teacher than a good fighter.

Paul

[SevenStar]

it's likely a safe bet that the majority of those coaches have fought, however. that experience is key, not win/loss record. How can you tell me about life in a ring if you've never been in one? How can you tell me about defending against knives if you've never really had to? that's when you begin dealing in theory...

[TAO YIN]

I'm not one to usually agree but...I'm glad to see this ten year argument continues.

Just cross hands. A traditional Sifu humbly accepts. However, sometimes he will only show you his gratitude once his senior todai have beaten the shiot out of you. So save some energy.

If you like the ring you will love this opportunity.

But I digress, everyone here has done this...right? If not, I don't see why not. In most countries, manslaughter is illegal. Don't be scared. Try it.

[David Jamieson]

However, sometimes he will only show you his gratitude once his senior todai have beaten the shiot out of you.

So what happens if you dump all his top students on their asses?

:p

anyway, some can fight, some can't, but the original question is just an impetuous one. It's an empty question not a loaded one.

[yutyeesam]

Originally posted by SevenStar
it's likely a safe bet that the majority of those coaches have fought, however. that experience is key, not win/loss record. How can you tell me about life in a ring if you've never been in one? How can you tell me about defending against knives if you've never really had to? that's when you begin dealing in theory...

I definitely agree with you 7*, a good teacher needs to have experiential knowledge to compliment and strengthen the theoretical.

But say if a Sifu only did sparring for 5 years, and another one who did it for 20 years. The Sifu who sparred for 5 years could still be a better teacher, because being a good teacher requires a different set of skills that is not exclusively dependent on the level of content mastery. Would you agree?

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
it's likely a safe bet that the majority of those coaches have fought, however. that experience is key, not win/loss record. How can you tell me about life in a ring if you've never been in one? How can you tell me about defending against knives if you've never really had to? that's when you begin dealing in theory...

So how many street fight have you been in Sevenstar??

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yutyeesam
I definitely agree with you 7*, a good teacher needs to have experiential knowledge to compliment and strengthen the theoretical.

But say if a Sifu only did sparring for 5 years, and another one who did it for 20 years. The Sifu who sparred for 5 years could still be a better teacher, because being a good teacher requires a different set of skills that is not exclusively dependent on the level of content mastery. Would you agree?

I agree with that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
So how many street fight have you been in Sevenstar??

unfortunately several. worked security for a while, and I just happen to end up in positions where I feel the need to intervene in things. some end up in fights, others don't. I've chased off muggers, stopped a guy from beating a woman, been on the scene of shootouts and various other crap.
regardless, I'm not trying to teach knife defenses and such to people, as if I am an expert on what works and what doesn't.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
unfortunately several. worked security for a while, and I just happen to end up in positions where I feel the need to intervene in things. some end up in fights, others don't. I've chased off muggers, stopped a guy from beating a woman, been on the scene of shootouts and various other crap.

So you feel that makes you qualified to teach street self defense?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
So you feel that makes you qualified to teach street self defense?

now you're assuming that I teach street self defense.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by SevenStar
now you're assuming that I teach street self defense.

Do you?

[SevenStar]

no. I'm an assistant thai boxing coach. I did help a friend/former coach of mine do a women's self defense seminar, but it was mainly awareness based. teaching them how not to look and act like victims. we drilled some basic judo stuff as well - falling, scenario training, like bear hug escapes, the guard, etc. I really don't believe in teaching techniques at a self defense seminar - it's somewhat pointless for the most part, IMO.

[Eddie]

I've chased off muggers, stopped a guy from beating a woman, been on the scene of shootouts and various other crap.

sounds like you could be from Johannesburg sevenstar.


I really don't believe in teaching techniques at a self defense seminar

In my humble opinion, technique based self defence classes is one big joke. They all assume that the attacker has never been in a fight, and that he will let go as soon as he gets a finger in the eye. Most often these guys have seen worse prison fights than any of us could ever imagine.

but that is a topic for another discussion.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie
sounds like you could be from Johannesburg sevenstar.

It's pretty bad there too, huh? Heck, my wife has witnessed two drive bys in the past six months. And, my neighbor and I chased down someone who broke into his truck and stole his stereo equipment - it was my wife who saw the guy and alerted us.



In my humble opinion, technique based self defence classes is one big joke. They all assume that the attacker has never been in a fight, and that he will let go as soon as he gets a finger in the eye. Most often these guys have seen worse prison fights than any of us could ever imagine.

but that is a topic for another discussion.

Agreed.

[Eddie]

where r you from 7*?

ther aren't too big on drive bys over her, just cause i dont think they can afford the petrol, but they do have some other sly things up their sleeves.

atleast we dont live in Iraq

[Sow Choy]

Self-defense Class...

Sevenstar & Eddie...

I have some requests to do that type of class... And I have seen a few videos on Self-Defense, and I agree with you guys, technique is nice and all, but it could make it more dangerous for someone if they get in a situation like that... So I just never offer that kind of class. I just tell them come and spar with us to get used to the environment of someone trying to beat your face in...

But what would you think a good self-defense class would be like? Maybe we can start this as another topic and get everyones input???

Joe

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Eddie
where r you from 7*?

ther aren't too big on drive bys over her, just cause i dont think they can afford the petrol, but they do have some other sly things up their sleeves.

tennessee

atleast we dont live in Iraq

ain't that the truth!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Self-defense Class...

Sevenstar & Eddie...

I have some requests to do that type of class... And I have seen a few videos on Self-Defense, and I agree with you guys, technique is nice and all, but it could make it more dangerous for someone if they get in a situation like that... So I just never offer that kind of class. I just tell them come and spar with us to get used to the environment of someone trying to beat your face in...

But what would you think a good self-defense class would be like? Maybe we can start this as another topic and get everyones input???

Joe

good idea - I'll start one.

[Eddie]

Good self defence should start with awareness, but I think what you are doing is the better way. Rather let them get used to being hit, than just teaching them a load of chin na and breaking hold techniques.

A good friend of mine live in Cape Town (a coastal city of SA which has allot of gang violence). He started a company which does research into the criminal behaviour and then trying to analyse it all in order to get a solution. Check out this site http://www.urbanshield.za.net/articles.html . This is an article which deals with the difference between Martial Arts and Self defence http://www.urbanshield.za.net/a02_sd-ma_difference.html . It might be specific to the type of violence in our country, but it covers allot.
Ed

[SevenStar]

Awesome. I'll look at that site right now.