sun punch is a substitution

[yellowpikachu]

Thus, I have heard,

before 1860,

sun punch is not popular for wing chun kuen.

Sun punch is a substitution of a much faster in accerelation and deep penetration more devastrating strike.

sets including the dummy set before the substitution of sun punch has that technic.

This technics 1, go with the bow string 2, back to its nature is issuing power.



Do you think the above is likely or it is just a His-story?

[taltos]

I think it is false.

[PaulH]

Can you do it, PKC? =) Let hear the arguments for this first. No, but I have heard of a bullet punch but even that is more of multiple actions packed in one sharp timing punch. Not related to your bow and string idea.

[planetwc]

Hendrik,

1. What evidence do you have for their being a different strike?

2. If the original strike were more effective WHY would it have been changed for something less "efficient"?

3. Why would the change have propagated to all the various lineages? It would imply that the either:

a) there was no such change as the sun punch was always there and not a change within WCK.

b) That the change was early enough that the common teacher for all the lineages substituted it before WCK started it's diaspora.

4) Smells like a marketing technique which would have been used in the late 1970-1980 timeframe :rolleyes:


Sooo...if you can answer those questions on to the next set...

5) What does the older strike look like in terms of mechanics?

6) Why is the older strike more effective/efficient?

7) Are it's mechanics consistent with Wing Chun principles?

8) Can you do it?

9) Why would there have been the substitution or evolution to the Sun Character punch? It is one of the hallmarks of WCK!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Can you do it, PKC? =) Let hear the arguments for this first. No, but I have heard of a bullet punch but even that is more of multiple actions packed in one sharp timing punch. Not related to your bow and string idea.


1, Thus I have heard. :D
2, let see how everyone think.

[yellowpikachu]

Just for some discussion. dont take it serious AT ALL. have some fun!


1. What evidence do you have for their being a different strike? -----

thus as I have heard. So for shake of discussion. :D


2. If the original strike were more effective WHY would it have been changed for something less "efficient"? ------


Mo dak and cut down unneccessary casualty even within School.
my guess.


3. Why would the change have propagated to all the various lineages? ---------


Cantonese opera was brought back to state after a decade or so of banning. Then, the Taiping was gone, the reberation was tame. a differrent era. Sun punch is always there since long long ago. dont get me wrong.

BTW, in Leong Jan's and pre LJ time, rumos said there is only one set for wing chun not three either. I took that as rumos and never take it for anything worthed to look into.







Sooo...if you can answer those questions on to the next set...

5) What does the older strike look like in terms of mechanics?-----


Sun punch is like a laser blade which has been taken away the fast light up and decrease the laser strenght copare with it. to activate it instead of one hold tigh to the laser blade but just a flip shock.. but then that is just Pikachu GUESS with the way how pikachu create that electric ZAP from shivering the Pika's body.



6) Why is the older strike more effective/efficient? -----


Because it is more close to nature of human body. similar to a spear is more effective then a pole in poking.



7) Are it's mechanics consistent with Wing Chun principles? ----

Take a way the blue canvast of a yellow farrary(sp) and one sees the spakling yellow farrary.



8) Can you do it?


Thus I have heard.

it tooks only 1 second for the decendent of red boat to see the mother of the sun punch. then they will say "oh Sh@T! why dont I realized it before? " and laught with a big smile similar to they always never lost thier treasure. and walk away happy:D

I believe the ancestors in the red boat had the wisdom and compassionate to hide things in a simple and elegant way. But then I rather not know it or seeing it. otherwise, the definition of who is waterry ( I love doing watery and flowery stuffs. :D ) and the world's ORDER has to be change :D.

and beside why put a cat out to hurt people? bad karma. Not the will of the ancestors I GUESS.



9) Why would there have been the substitution or evolution to the Sun Character punch? It is one of the hallmarks of WCK! --------

placing a case over the blade is not evolution but for protection.

hallmarks changes in different era and different location. everything subject to Localization Evolution.



just some pikachu day dream opinion.



ps. PlanetWC, how is the moon in your new home? have moon cake yet?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by taltos
I think it is false.

great!

I am with you if it is possible!

life is more simple that way.

Pika pika Chu.

[PaulH]

I peep a biu, and what do I see? Give me a five? =)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
I peep a biu, and what do I see? Give me a five? =)



forget about sun punch of moon punch or substitution or ....

you buy me a moon cake and a cup of green tea and I show you how to take away the plastic coating of the electrical wire so you can shock people similar to pikachu how about that? Pika Pika. :D

To be happy is better then to be right! :D give you five!

[PaulH]

Thanks! I'll accept it graciously to buy that coming moon cake and the green tea! =D

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Just stopping by to read the latest WC chit chat!


I am not sure if Hendrik and I are talking about the same thing but I have also heard this from my family. The Sun punch has become the more popular fist formation as it causes less damage. The Pao Choi is the bladed extension of that alignment! Same bone alignment just more nasty damage.

According to the teaching of Leung Jan in Koo Lo village as preserved by the Fung family the Lepard Fist (pao choi) penetrates deeper and has less muscular tension attached to it.

The Pao Choi is still preserved by the Leung Jan Wing Chun family in Koo Lo but even my own sifu (Mui Wai Hun) expresses concern with using it as it not nice. Sifu's exact words to me regarding this is:

Jim, you do not need to use that! Its too dangerous. If you cannot defeat someone with the sun punch then you need to develop more. Be careful with that stuff. Back in the old days they fought for their lives and had to cause maximum damage but now a days that is not the case. Dont hurt someone if you dont have to!


I have attached a photo of Fung Keung sifu demonstrating the Pao Choi.


See ya,

Jim

[Ernie]

The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time there is no secret punch , a punch is a punch
Proper body mechanics , mental and emotional focus and explosiveness .

The difference is in an experienced punch [ one that has knocked people out ] and a pretend one [ one that has just hit bags and pads and empty air ]
When you trust and have confidence in your punch , you relax and explode you don’t worry about the sun or the moon or silly yellow very gay looking creatures [ your getting very Michael Jackson on us hendrik ]

When you have experience , you have no more nervousness the punch is just a punch , it is an extension of your thought/emotion

Any punch can knock some one out

The real question is can you get your punch there while being punched and get there with proper speed timing , distance and power .

Or we can sit here and continue to dissect the corpse of a dead punch

Things disappear for a reason better things replace them , but if you live in the world of cartoons [ were human reality and physical restriction don’t exist ] I guess anything is possible

Screw the dead punch talk to me about your delivery system

Ps hendrik stay off the Jesus juice
;)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Ernie,


"The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time

A discussion about tools that have been part of WC since its founding is not a search for the magic pill IMO. JR

there is no secret punch , a punch is a punch

Secrets are only secrets if you know the stuff or not. JR

Proper body mechanics , mental and emotional focus and explosiveness ."

I agree with this but its a different topic. JR


A lot of the modern type mentality does not allow people to accept certain things. Evolution is certainly something one can accept of not. There is no secret or special anything. Its just some facts that you can accept or not. Wing Chun has been evolving for quite some time and its still evolving.

I like to look back and see how things were done to compare to how they are done now but some dont. Doesn't make it a bad thing. Of course we must be able to use it but if everytime someone mentions something from the older generation of Wing Chunners or less evolved/modernized WC arts that stayed within the villages or families is regarded as mumbo jumbo then that is showing disrepect to the sources of our arts IMO.

Its a discussion and since a forum is used for discussing all aspects of WC from application to theory to methods to whatever I think certain things should not be regarded as The Magic Pill or Secrets if its not common or known by them.

"Things disappear for a reason better things replace them" Ernie

So, for you, this might be a "dead punch" but for me it may just be part of my normal training and the same goes for Hendrik if we are talking about the same thing.

Your Wing Chun comes from Yip Man. Yip's line comes from Leung Jan. Leung Jan Wing Chun placed a heavy emphacis on this punch back in the day and its still used and preserved today by some of his decendants. So, is it a secret or magic or god's punch? Only if you dont know it. If you do know it then its just part of your WC art like the other tools are.

If you want to talk about the deliery system or engine that powers it and other attributes then start that thread. Good conversation is good conversation. Nothing is better or worst.


Just my .02!


See ya,

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hello Ernie,

See ya, "The search for the magic pill
People always looking for short cuts like some secret from the past will make them see the light
People have been punching themselves since the dawn of time

A discussion about tools that have been part of WC since it’s founding is not a search for the magic pill IMO. JR



----- tools are functional and can be easily tested and evaluated for efficacy , but historical hype on the other hand is something else ---------------- E



A lot of the modern type mentality does not allow people to accept certain things.

----- we require proof not stories or sifu says , problem is when you ask someone to prove it suddenly they can't it's what some one else can do and of course that person is dead now ---E


Evolution is certainly something one can accept of not. There is no secret or special anything. Its just some facts that you can accept or not. Wing Chun has been evolving for quite some time and its still evolving.

----- I agree and for the better I hope =) ---E.

I like to look back and see how things were done to compare to how they are done now but some don’t.

---- Cool lets jump in a time machine and do that , or do you have actual footage or is just a hand me down story ? not trying to be rude , but if one is putting there life on the line in a combative situation wouldn't a little actual physical proof be nice ? --------

Doesn't make it a bad thing. Of course we must be able to use it but if every time someone mentions something from the older generation of Wing Chunners or less evolved/modernized WC arts that stayed within the villages or families is regarded as mumbo jumbo then that is showing disrespect to the sources of our arts IMO.

----- I don't mean to be disrespectful , look at the source not the most educated people running around in the old villages , limited contact and exposure to the outside world and no TV =) big imaginations and stories get created , why chase ghost when you are alive today ? for entertainment possibly then that's cool
but for combative efficacy then I would have my doubts ....... as for mentioning things from the old times they just stories man nothing more , if that's the case never cut your hair I heard it caused big problems for Samson ----E

Its a discussion and since a forum is used for discussing all aspects of WC from application to theory to methods to whatever I think certain things should not be regarded as The Magic Pill or Secrets if its not common or known by them.

------ it's cool to discuss and it's just as cool for some one to bring up the holes in the discussion , this way there is something to discuss =) ---- E.

"Things disappear for a reason better things replace them" Ernie

So, for you, this might be a "dead punch" but for me it may just be part of my normal training and the same goes for Hendrix if we are talking about the same thing.

----- Cool there are many people that continue to do things just because , training generally has a purpose and a goal , but for some it just a repetitive action , do you every question something , I question everything and ask it to be proved on me , I take nothing on face value and I have kissed the floor many times from this but also blown out many myths as well , to each there own -------- E.

Your Wing Chun comes from Yip Man. Yip's line comes from Leung Jan. Leung Jan Wing Chun placed a heavy emphasis on this punch back in the day and its still used and preserved today by some of his descendants. So, is it a secret or magic or god's punch? Only if you don’t know it. If you do know it then its just part of your WC art like the other tools are.


------ My wing chun comes from Gary were he got his is his business and that's as much as it matters to me , does it work and can I pull it off the rest is insignificant to me , I’m not in the business of preservation , I prefer application , if it works it will come out if it's just some dead artifact it will stay on a shelf and collect dust what ever ------E.


Just my .02!

---- no worries , nothing personal I just don't by the hype , but if we ever meet you are more then welcome to hit me with it and let me feel it's power , that would be fun ----E.

[yellowpikachu]

Hello guys,

buy a few moon cakes and drink some tea. having fun and discuss with ease and relax. nothing worthed to take it that serious then happy.


pika pika

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Jim, you do not need to use that! Its too dangerous. If you cannot defeat someone with the sun punch then you need to develop more. Be careful with that stuff. Back in the old days they fought for their lives and had to cause maximum damage but now a days that is not the case. Dont hurt someone if you dont have to!




Very respectable words!

[Ernie]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Hello guys,

buy a few moon cakes and drink some tea. having fun and discuss with ease and relax. nothing worthed to take it that serious then happy.


pika pika

man not worries [ or little yellow ball of imagination ]


i never take anything traditional serious :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando


The Pao Choi is still preserved by the Leung Jan Wing Chun family in Koo Lo but even my own sifu (Mui Wai Hun) expresses concern with using it as it not nice. Sifu's exact words to me regarding this is:




Pao Choi or Chat Choi has two ways of using it . that is the Ying and Yang,
And that link to the Pikachu main-surbodinate chain effect concept of sliding up and leaking down..... for the changes in each state.....

and there is another ways of using it with totally rely on momentum and energy ---

as it said in the kuen kuit,

Mo Yeng Poh Jung. No shadow break the Jung and " not dealing and not blocking, just a strike" ( I wont translate jung as center or middle here because Jung means more then center)

that is the game for those in the momentum and energy level.... without kung fu of that level, one cannot operate in this range. saying is cheap. to be really there needs lot of kung fu.

pika pika

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Ernie
man not worries [ or little yellow ball of imagination ]


i never take anything traditional serious :D


hey dont insult that Yellow fur Ball of imagination man! :D :D

have fun be happy.

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Ernie,



----- tools are functional and can be easily tested and evaluated for efficacy , but historical hype on the other hand is something else ---------------- E

Absolutely. Read the very last paragraph on this reply for more tested/evalution info.. JR

----- we require proof not stories or sifu says , problem is when you ask someone to prove it suddenly they can't it's what some one else can do and of course that person is dead now ---E

Yes and no. Some can prove things and some cannot. There is lots of this in the world. JR

----- I agree and for the better I hope =) ---E.


Yes and no IMO. I have mixed feeling about this. Thats a different topic. JR


---- Cool lets jump in a time machine and do that , or do you have actual footage or is just a hand me down story ? not trying to be rude , but if one is putting there life on the line in a combative situation wouldn't a little actual physical proof be nice ? --------

Well, you dont need a time machine. You have decendants of these people still preserving this stuff. Numerous! JR


----- I don't mean to be disrespectful , look at the source not the most educated people running around in the old villages , limited contact and exposure to the outside world and no TV =) big imaginations and stories get created , why chase ghost when you are alive today ? for entertainment possibly then that's cool
but for combative efficacy then I would have my doubts ....... as for mentioning things from the old times they just stories man nothing more , if that's the case never cut your hair I heard it caused big problems for Samson ----E

Well, I do not agree with this. These people are part of the modern world. TV's, cell phones etc.. Believe it or not! They also do fight with all sorts of people but its just not as public. Plus! Many are even in Hong Kong and other places. I have watched footage of many of these older so-called less known guys fighting people. Some of my favorite fights were watching an old South Mantis Sifu hit a guy sooo hard he was lifted off the ground and landed flat on his back. The problem is most of the public think because its not in the public eye its not worthy. JR

------ it's cool to discuss and it's just as cool for some one to bring up the holes in the discussion , this way there is something to discuss =) ---- E.

True but often you get this:

So what are the different ways to blah blah?

Reply:

Who cares! I am a fighter. Just use it and wake up.

The problem we have is that different discussion can go no where if this is the only answer. We need to be able to discuss on many levels. There is training, theory, usage, sparring and then Real Street Experience etc.. JR

----- Cool there are many people that continue to do things just because , training generally has a purpose and a goal , but for some it just a repetitive action , do you every question something , I question everything and ask it to be proved on me , I take nothing on face value and I have kissed the floor many times from this but also blown out many myths as well , to each there own -------- E.

Someone once told me:

Respect your art/Respect your sifu/Question your art/Question your sifu! Etc.. Just because someone says something it doesn't mean didly unless I have seen it used with good force and efficiancy. JR

------ My wing chun comes from Gary were he got his is his business and that's as much as it matters to me , does it work and can I pull it off the rest is insignificant to me , I’m not in the business of preservation , I prefer application , if it works it will come out if it's just some dead artifact it will stay on a shelf and collect dust what ever ------E.

Good point but you are doing WCK. WCK came from somewhere and has developed into something or maybe is still being done in other ways or whatever. Application is the end result and very important but What if Joe Smoe does WC like this and his brother does WC like that. Then! You see his older uncle doing WC a bit different and its still very effective. Being effective is more about the individual and what htye put into versus the art IMO. Its not about being an artifact. Just because something is a bit more popular or easy to find it does not mean what many others preserve out of the mainstream is not equally as valuable. JR


---- no worries , nothing personal I just don't by the hype , but if we ever meet you are more then welcome to hit me with it and let me feel it's power , that would be fun ----E.

Cool! For what its worth I can help you find out more about this with one simple e-mail. Some of the Wong Shun Leung fighters from Australia in recent years have visited the so-called artifact! hehe John Smith and others have visited my Pin Sun Wing Chun uncle Fung Keung sifu in Hong Kong. John even posted his photo with him on his web site. Fung sifu explain and demonstrated the Pao Choi on John and others. They have also went at it. Yup! Tested their skill against each other! I would post John's e-mails to me on this site but that would not be proper. Since you guys are from the same family (YM/WSL) you should e-mail John and others to ask about the Artifact! hehe I see on your site you have photo's of David Peterson and others. John and David are close. I will leave you his web site address and you can contact him. I know you respect David and WSL family. This is a nice and quick way to get some first hand experienced info..

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jr.smith/


Nice speaking with you,

[PaulH]

What do you do with what is given you?

Ignorance is bliss, but certain understanding is more rewarding and preferrable even though you may search for it fruitlessly with your whole life.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello HS,


Very respectable words!


I agree!


Sifu is very easy going and concerned with this stuff. A few years back he had an incident. I will relay it here:

Mui Sifu came out of his house and found two younger guys sitting on his car. He asked the guys to please get off his car. They insulted him and one stood up to give him some heat. He asked again. One went to raise his hands up he entered in and knocked him back and to the ground with open hand movement. The other one got off the car but he sifu already turned around and was ready. He told him to leave and this will not go any further. The guys left and nobody was hurt.

IMO! Thats shows good skill and level of decency.

I asked him:

Why didn't you punch them to be sure they were not going to come back or get up and try again. He said;

They were young and stupid. No need!


I can respect that!


Regards,

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
What do you do with what is given you?

Ignorance is bliss, but certain understanding is more rewarding and preferrable even though you may search for it fruitlessly with your whole life.



pikachu is always happy when everything is OK or not OK :D

[Nick Forrer]

Hi everyone,

jim/hendrik thanks for sharing. Its an interesting speculation.

One question though. If our ancestors took out a deadly unarmed strike for safety purposes why would they pass on the knives? Surely they are far more lethal than any of our empty hands?

[anerlich]

I can't really see the point of concealing alleged "deadly" techniques, and still less in portraying the people that allegedly did so as possessing enormous wisdom, or portraying their students as being too stupid or blinkered not to rediscover them for themselves.

Anyone using WC to fight regularly in China in the 19th century would have come across leopard fists, crane wings and beaks, tiger and dragon claws, etc. And a Sifu that did not adequately prepare their students to work against such techniques should have taken up tofu grinding as he would have been incompetent.

It's easy and dangerous to eye gouge, but schools that "tell all" about the eye gouge but advise students it is a dangerous and damaging technique don't suddenly lose students by the dozen with gouged eyes.

In BJJ heel hooks are arguably easier to get than straight ankle locks but can be far more damaging (perhaps permanently), most schools say "we drill these, but only apply them VERY lightly or not at all when rolling". This works.

At the end of the day, this is a hand formation and allied delivery system. It's not the master encryption key to the NSA, and wouldn't take a genius to work out.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Hi Ernie,




Absolutely. Read the very last paragraph on this reply for more tested/evalution info.. JR

----will do and i will follow up =)

----- we require proof not stories or sifu says , problem is when you ask someone to prove it suddenly they can't it's what some one else can do and of course that person is dead now ---E

Yes and no. Some can prove things and some cannot. There is lots of this in the world. JR

----- it comes down to what we can do not what some one else , and can we transfer this information and gain results IMO



Well, you dont need a time machine. You have decendants of these people still preserving this stuff. Numerous! JR

---- thus i hear , it's always some one else , you know what i mean ----------------------


Well, I do not agree with this. These people are part of the modern world. TV's, cell phones etc.. Believe it or not! They also do fight with all sorts of people but its just not as public. Plus! Many are even in Hong Kong and other places. I have watched footage of many of these older so-called less known guys fighting people.

--------- look i'm no no it all for sure , but i have footage old stuff people sent to me of chinese masters fighting , and it looks little better then a school yard brawl , no foot work timing , anything just funky stances and arms swinging , still wating and i have seen modern masters in hong kong and things haven't improved much my POV--------------------------

True but often you get this:

So what are the different ways to blah blah?

Reply:

Who cares! I am a fighter. Just use it and wake up.

------ i'm tired of that as well i agree that things have no merit unless they can be pulled of by more then one or two people , but no need to go round and round -----------------------

The problem we have is that different discussion can go no where if this is the only answer. We need to be able to discuss on many levels. There is training, theory, usage, sparring and then Real Street Experience etc.. JR

----- i agree but with out a common goal things go everywhere as well , so for me it's application and training method , the rest i leave to others --------------------

Someone once told me:

Respect your art/Respect your sifu/Question your art/Question your sifu! Etc.. Just because someone says something it doesn't mean didly unless I have seen it used with good force and efficiancy. JR

----- my art is not a living thing so it needs no respect , my sifu as anyone else must earn my respect and i agree with the rest =)-------------------------------------------


Good point but you are doing WCK.


---------- i am doing what comes out WCK is just a training mehtod nothing more --------------------

WCK came from somewhere and has developed into something or maybe is still being done in other ways or whatever. Application is the end result and very important but What if Joe Smoe does WC like this and his brother does WC like that. Then! You see his older uncle doing WC a bit different and its still very effective. Being effective is more about the individual and what htye put into versus the art IMO.

---------------- i agree there is a million right ways to throw a jab , find out which is yours =) -------------------

Its not about being an artifact. Just because something is a bit more popular or easy to find it does not mean what many others preserve out of the mainstream is not equally as valuable. JR

---------- it's only about application not popularity does it work cool people will use it , if it doesn't cool some people will still try -----------------------------------------



Cool! For what its worth I can help you find out more about this with one simple e-mail.


----- thank you for the offer but i'm a hands on kind of guy , what this or that person says some one can do doesn't really hold my attention , i'm dumb that way--------------------


Some of the Wong Shun Leung fighters from Australia in recent years have visited the so-called artifact! hehe John Smith and others have visited my Pin Sun Wing Chun uncle Fung Keung sifu in Hong Kong. John even posted his photo with him on his web site. Fung sifu explain and demonstrated the Pao Choi on John and others. They have also went at it. Yup! Tested their skill against each other! I would post John's e-mails to me on this site but that would not be proper. Since you guys are from the same family (YM/WSL)

------- i'm not one of the '' you guys '' i don't get all lineage happy , if some on is good there good , if there good to me i'm good to them , it just so happens my teachers have all been from WSL and these guys are my friends this is my bond , the t shirt and secret hand shake not my thing -----------------

you should e-mail John and others to ask about the Artifact! hehe I see on your site you have photo's of David Peterson and others. John and David are close.

------- David has been a real life inspiration and continues to be , great guy , and he has often passed on to me who is good in his eyes ----------------------

I will leave you his web site address and you can contact him. I know you respect David and WSL family. This is a nice and quick way to get some first hand experienced info..


------ first hand experience , means hands on , there is no other way , but like i said above thank you and when i chat with david again i will ask out of respect for out conversation =)

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~jr.smith/


Nice speaking with you, ;)
nice speaking with you as well :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Hi everyone,

jim/hendrik thanks for sharing. Its an interesting speculation.

One question though. If our ancestors took out a deadly unarmed strike for safety purposes why would they pass on the knives? Surely they are far more lethal than any of our empty hands?


How often do you carry a knive and walking around? :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by anerlich
I can't really see the point of concealing alleged "deadly" techniques, and still less in portraying the people that allegedly did so as possessing enormous wisdom, or portraying their students as being too stupid or blinkered not to rediscover them for themselves.

Anyone using WC to fight regularly in China in the 19th century would have come across leopard fists, crane wings and beaks, tiger and dragon claws, etc. And a Sifu that did not adequately prepare their students to work against such techniques should have taken up tofu grinding as he would have been incompetent.

It's easy and dangerous to eye gouge, but schools that "tell all" about the eye gouge but advise students it is a dangerous and damaging technique don't suddenly lose students by the dozen with gouged eyes.

In BJJ heel hooks are arguably easier to get than straight ankle locks but can be far more damaging (perhaps permanently), most schools say "we drill these, but only apply them VERY lightly or not at all when rolling". This works.

At the end of the day, this is a hand formation and allied delivery system. It's not the master encryption key to the NSA, and wouldn't take a genius to work out.



Great questions.

But then,

If it is not reveal how can things passed on to today?
if it is reveal why is not everyone using it?

[anerlich]

"Great questions. "

:confused: I asked no questions.

"If it is not reveal how can things passed on to today?"

I though you asserted that it *hadn't* been passed on or revealed, and that it was a secret, except to Jim, a large number of Shaolin Animal stylists and yourself. And you said that it *hasn't* been passed on in WC. I think this a question for you rather than me.

"if it is reveal why is not everyone using it?"

Maybe the reality doesn't match the hype? It wasn't as deadly as they all said, it requires skill and/or conditioning to use effectively beyond the reach of most students, unlike other tools, or its applications are limited?

[Gangsterfist]

You know, if memory serves me right (which it may not) I think I remember kathy Jo talking about the sun punch.


As for leopard fists in wing chun? I have never seen that before. You will find things like cranes beaks in a lot of different arts. In our taiji class we have some cranes beaks in the short form. However, I was told its mostly for qigong benefits, not for combat, but could be used for combat.

Interesting stuff though.

What makes the sun punch different from a regular vertical (or chain) punch?

[Vajramusti]

Jim R sez:

I have attached a photo of Fung Keung sifu demonstrating the Pao Choi.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Jim-

Where?
Joy

[planetwc]

A short video clip or animated gif would be even better.:D


Originally posted by Vajramusti
Jim R sez:

I have attached a photo of Fung Keung sifu demonstrating the Pao Choi.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Jim-

Where?
Joy

[Jim Roselando]

Hi Joy/David!


Ooops!


Its on my other notebook comp. that is in the shop! Ugggg!

I thought I had it on this one but when I looked I realized it wasn't! Doh!


Will post when I get on that comp.!


Hey all,


Its not a big deal! If you look at most of the old south fist arts you will see this fist formation/shape! The thing is most of what we see is part of the evolution Hendrik talks about. One would need to see WC the way it was done back in the mid 1800's by people like Leung Jan and others to see these different things. You also have to keep in mind the way people were back then. Of course having this doesn't make you a better fighter as that is up to the individual and what they put into the art but its just stuff that was part of the art back in the day. Many would automatically think its outside influence or animal stuff added in but thats not the case. The "Thus I Have Heard" stories Hendrik posts, or starts threads with, really do contain excellent links to the past. I have heard a lot of the same stuff from Mui sifu and Leung Jan's Koo Lo family.


Keep an open mind!


Regards,

[Vajramusti]

Jim-
Look forward to seeing the pic- when you post it.

No big deal imo--generally wing chun folks dont use terms like leopard fist- but does not mean that similar but not the same formations are'nt there.

In some Ip man lines including mine- the gurng gee kuen where the fist does not compeletely close- is pretty fast and dangerous strike which goes to places that regular fists can't go. And it's roots are there in two of the forms.

One of the problems sometimes in wing chun discussions is over-generalization about all versions of wing chun. That may be the case here. The gurng gee is fast and dangerous- but the key is
proper training and delivery with proper timing.

So its a non issue for me- but would like to see your pic to see whether we are on the same page.

[PaulH]

If you like to see leopard fist, check out Leung Jan's "friendly"nemesis in the Prodigal Son movie. Now we know where the fist comes from. Thanks to the most informative source and my vivid imagination! =) Thanks, Jim!

[CFT]

Originally posted by PaulH
If you like to see leopard fist, check out Leung Jan's "friendly"nemesis in the Prodigal Son movie. Now we know where the fist comes from. Thanks to the most informative source and my vivid imagination! =) Thanks, Jim! Ahh ... if we're talking about the Prodigal Son, then Leung Yee Tai seems to perform a leopard fist against one of the 'ninja assassins' that killed the opera troupe.

LYT is sleeping but is woken by the reflection of a blade. The leopard fist comes right after a finger thrust to his opponent's midsection I think.

Movie-fu only? Seems like it could be a 'logical' progression from finger thrust to leopard fist to sun punch.

[Gangsterfist]

The prodigal son, thats a good flick I own it too. I always like the dragon kung fu in that movie, but was that really dragon? I mean I see him do the dragon back and the dragon claw a few times, but other parts of his style seem to be from something else...

Anyways, I am familiar with pheonix eye, dragon fang, leopard fist, tiger claw, dragon claw, monkey grip, cranes beak, etc.

The sun punch? Can someone describe to me how its executed? How it differs from a normal vertical punch (or chain punch)?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist


The sun punch? Can someone describe to me how its executed? How it differs from a normal vertical punch (or chain punch)?

To me the sun fist is the normal vertical Wing Chun punch. It is called sun punch because the Chinese character for sun looks like a rectangle with a line down the middle sort of like viewing the vertical fist from the front. See:
About Chinese characters:
http://www.blss.portsmouth.sch.uk/hsc/chinchars.shtml
Karate Vertical fist and why it is good
http://w3.trib.com/~smammon/vpunch.html
Why the vertical punch is no good:
http://tkdtutor.com/06Theory/Punching/Twist.htm
Boxing of old and new, vertical vs flat punch
http://www.savateaustralia.com/Savate%20Essays/Bare-Knuckles%20to%20Modern%20Boxing.htm
and Yip Man pose vs Choy Lee Fut wih Leopard punch pose:
http://www.buksing.com/5_panthers/5_panthers.html

[Gangsterfist]

thanks for that info.

Those were all very informative, except i thought that whole wing chun vs choy li fut thing to be kind of ridiculous.


However, I have heard the term sun punch many times. We just call it vertical punch or chain punch.

thanks for all those links again good info.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
thanks for that info.

Those were all very informative, except i thought that whole wing chun vs choy li fut thing to be kind of ridiculous.


However, I have heard the term sun punch many times. We just call it vertical punch or chain punch.

thanks for all those links again good info.

The leopard punch of CLF must not be taken litely. It has two changes in every strike......

[Gangsterfist]

i never said anything about underestimating choy li fut. I think choy li fut is some scary stuff.

I think that the whole challenge style vs style thing is ridiculous.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
thanks for that info.

However, I have heard the term sun punch many times. We just call it vertical punch or chain punch.

thanks for all those links again good info.

We just refer to consecutive vertical punches as chain punches. I have also heard the term ruffle punch and from another art, rocket punch.

Ray

[CFT]

Some 'dodgy' Cantonese romanization comin' atcha ...

Sun punch - yut jee chung choi (sun character thrusting punch)
Chain punch - lin wan choi (continuous punch)

Ray is right of course, the sun punch is just the regular WC straight/vertical punch.

[reneritchie]

I don't know what Hendrik or Jim are referring to, but the way my Sigung taught, the vertical thrust was the generic punch shown to beginners and everyone. There were other strikes that he considered more dangerous.

I don't think there's anything magical about them. Once a Wu Taiji offered to show me his 'expecially damaging punch' and it was the same as one of ours.

Nothing magical, just first learn crawl, then walk, then run. And when in doubt, hit with a car.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by reneritchie
the way my Sigung taught, the vertical thrust was the generic punch shown to beginners and everyone. There were other strikes that he considered more dangerous.



Rene,
This is a good way to put it.

[CFT]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I don't know what Hendrik or Jim are referring to, but the way my Sigung taught, the vertical thrust was the generic punch shown to beginners and everyone. There were other strikes that he considered more dangerous.Rene,

Are you at liberty to expand upon this, or do you mean that other 'publicly' recognised strikes were considered more dangerous, perhaps along the lines of biu jee to the throat type of thing?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by reneritchie


I don't think there's anything magical about them. Once a Wu Taiji offered to show me his 'expecially damaging punch' and it was the same as one of ours.




may be the magic is not in the external shape or what one think but within the execution?

Same shape with the CLF leapord punch but is Wing Chun's leapord punch the same with CLF's leapord punch?

Same shape with Chen Taiji reel silk might not deliver the same power. Same shape middle punch as oyama but might not deliver the same power. Same external shape to hug the tree as the WXZ of Yee Chuan, but how many can deliver the shock waving?

[reneritchie]

"Are you at liberty to expand upon this, or do you mean that other 'publicly' recognised strikes were considered more dangerous, perhaps along the lines of bui jee to the throat type of thing?"

No, nothing like Biu Jee. Literally other ways of hitting with the fist. Some are publically seen like the Kwai Choi (back knuckle, like punching from the tan->bong transition), others not. They're more complicated in terms of mechanics to be effective, and IMHO are more like long term neato things you can do as you go deeper into the art, but a fist in someone's face is still a fist in someone's face, and if you can do that with a vanilla vertical punch, so much the simpler.

[Gangsterfist]

reguarding animal strikes (ie, snake, crane's beak, pheonix eye, dragon fang, tiger claw, dragon claw, leopard fists, etc.), is wing chun not surpassing all that? Isn't wing chun becoming more human, and no longer imitating animals? It is evolving with us, making it more practical for a human to use. Looking at the human body and using natural human attributes, and no longer looking at animals trying to emulate them. Those aren't super secret ancient deadly attacks no longer taught to the public because of how dangerous they are. They are just old techniques that were found not as effecient as using the natrual human structure. Its progression and those who dwell in the past perhaps cannot adapt to the future of what wing chun will become. It is an art designed to evolve with the times, not stay stale in the past.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


reguarding animal strikes (ie, snake, crane's beak, pheonix eye, dragon fang, tiger claw, dragon claw, leopard fists, etc.), is wing chun not surpassing all that?

I guess you would need to ask the founder and ancestors this! hehe He/they seemed to feel it neccessary or important to have some of those elements in his/their art. JR

Isn't wing chun becoming more human, and no longer imitating animals?

Did the animal styles ever really imitate animals or were those more or less fluffy stories? Wasn't WC always about natural human attribures? JR

It is evolving with us, making it more practical for a human to use. Looking at the human body and using natural human attributes, and no longer looking at animals trying to emulate them.

Do you really believe people sat down and watched animals to create styles? Whats the difference between the Yat Jee Choi/Pao Choi/Foo Ngon/Etc.? Are they really complex or are they just different striking surfaces of the human body? What is un-natural about that? All utilize internal alignement. All are useless without Internal alignement. JR

Those aren't super secret ancient deadly attacks no longer taught to the public because of how dangerous they are.

Localiztion Evolution as HS calls it! Some preserve it and some dont. Its only a secret if you have not been shown it. Once you have, then its just WCK. JR

They are just old techniques that were found not as effecient as using the natrual human structure.

By who? Leung Jan felt they were effecient? He taught them to his final goup in Koo Lo village? You would think after decades of fighting and teaching experience he would have realized if they were not effecient but he didn't? Seems like the Yik Kam family also thought the same. So, who thought they were not effeciant? JR

Its progression and those who dwell in the past perhaps cannot adapt to the future of what wing chun will become. It is an art designed to evolve with the times, not stay stale in the past.

Is it really about dwelling in the past or preserving WCK while evolving with the times? All arts, including WCK, evolve. What is useful for some may not be useful for others. So, does this mean we should just discard what each of us feel is not needed or should we preserve the teaching and still evolve with the times? Guys like Leung Jan felt no need to discsard those toold after countless years of WCK. He used it for real combat and could have easily discarded it when teaching his final group. He didn't! As a matter of fact, it was his primary fist shape! Sun punch wasn't! Go figure. So who was it that felt it useless or not needed and why?

;)


I think Rene's post sums it up nicely tho:

I don't know what Hendrik or Jim are referring to, but the way my Sigung taught, the vertical thrust was the generic punch shown to beginners and everyone. There were other strikes that he considered more dangerous.

I don't think there's anything magical about them. Once a Wu Taiji offered to show me his 'expecially damaging punch' and it was the same as one of ours.

Nothing magical, just first learn crawl, then walk, then run. And when in doubt, hit with a car.


See ya,

[black and blue]

Hi

What about the Phoenix Eye Punch? There is a story that YM, when leaving for Hong Kong, told his then students to train using this method once he was gone.

I never used it in the WC I was learning, but did learn something of it in WT. In my XingYi we use it for pretty much every fist attack. Having taken a few light knocks on the chest (and a few on the arm) this method hurts like H.e.l.l

The damage it could do to the face is surely more than the standard character sun fist. Using it (Pheonix Eye) against the body feels like someone's taken a red hot poker to you.

Do any of you Wing Chunners train to use this?

[kj]

I have heard that story too, B&B. I have no idea of its accuracy or true context.


Originally posted by black and blue
Do any of you Wing Chunners train to use this?

I used to practice it when I started learning Wing Chun under my first teacher. I agree it can be very painful on the receiving end, not entirely unlike getting hit with a mace.

The way I train now, the only punch we use is the sun character punch. (There remain many other kinds of strikes other than punches.) I have observed that phoenix eye tends to create a chain of tension and commitment (e.g., time to create and undo the fist, flow, "interruptability") inconsistent with my present practice.

In my experience, paring down can often help to gain something else, or reduce potential vulnerabilities. In this example, omitting the phoenix eye allows us to retain a different set qualities or physical attributes more central to our (me and mine) way of practice.

IMHO, it is not a matter that phoenix eye is good or bad; rather it is inconsistent with some ways of doing things, while more useful and not inconsistent with other approaches. Integrity of the whole can be vitally important, no less for us smaller, weaker, and more physically vulnerable types.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,
- kj

[black and blue]

Interesting.

I've found that I can now form a fist (PE) as quickly as I form a regular fist - the secret seems to be in training yourself (muscle memory) to position the thumb... the rest just seems to slot into place.

But yes, just holding the PE fist in itself has slightly more tension (but maybe that's just my fault as a beginner).

For sure, it's a nasty, nasty way of hitting someone - damage guaranteed!

:)

[kj]

Originally posted by black and blue
But yes, just holding the PE fist in itself has slightly more tension (but maybe that's just my fault as a beginner).

You might be able to affect it some with practice, but anatomy also plays a big part. Holding even just the hand or fingers in different positions or with differing tension can affect the muscle/ligament chain through the entire arm and even into the shoulder. There is a lot to experiment with there.

Regards,
- kj

[Vajramusti]

The fung ngan kuen is there in our biu jee form. One has to
have the proper and appropriate body development and timing to
use the punch well.

Like many things in wing chun-prpoer integration is the key.
Premature use wont have the proper accuracy, power or impact.

Each style using the fist has differences in the details of its use.

[Vajramusti]

Phoenix eye needs proper training and synchronised with wc principles and body work to be used ina wing chun way. Or else- you pay for its use one way or the other . See below for other kfo posts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------.My sihing hit one of our little brothers with a pheonix eye fist and dislocated the guy's jaw in class. It wasn't even that solid of a punch, but his extended knuckle hit the guy right in the joint and his jaw popped out and locked open for about 15 seconds. It popped back in place on it's own, but it looked painful.


__________________
Ti Da Shuai Na




EvolutionFist
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Long Beach, NY
Posts: 1890
Shouldn't play with that with classmates.... it's dirty. If a classmate hit me with that I'd be ****ed. Sort of like deadbutting when rolling during practice.

Some jerk in town used to stop me at parties, at the ebach, ect to chi sau. He was a drunk and bigger than me and the one time I obliged him he hooked me in the face after I disengaged. The next time he did it I hit him in the rib with a fu man choy and broke it.


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09-28-2004 11:37 PM



Buby
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 1969
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Posts: 357
PEye
MK,

PE is not to be played with, if the hand is properly conditioned it can do lots of damage...not only externally, but also internally. PE is mainly used in pressure point striking, no one should be trying it on a training partner.

Take care,
Buby







quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by GeneChing
Bring me the ninjettes that will die for me. Bring 'em smothered in nacho sauce. Bring me my nacho-smothered ninjettes!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



National Association of Chinese Martial Arts.



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09-29-2004 12:17 AM



CaptinPickAxe
your future told

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Fat Antonio, Tx
Posts: 2317
I've hit someone with a pheonix-eye fist before. It broke his nose. Its a filthy hit.

Pheonix-eye fist=like your holding a gun. Index finger extended to the first knuckle like wrapped around a trigger.


__________________

[YongChun]

One Wing Chun master who was also a Preying Mantis practitioner, claimed that he showed the late Grandmaster Yip Man got the Phoenix Eye fist from the Preying Mantis style and that Yip Man liked it very much. My first Wing Chun teacher told me to do a Karate punch at him and then he used the Phoenix Eye fist to hit the spot just in the V of the thumb and index finger to make my hand tingle like it just got an electric shock. In that particular case he was pretty accurate.

[Gangsterfist]

Yongchun-

That sounds like it could be accurate, a lot of foot work in certain YM families is from lost track.

About the pheonix eye and other animals fists. To comment on what was said about it, here is my take.

The PE, does not really need certain conditioning to develope toughness (for lack of a better work) in the fingers to make the strike strong. Instead it takes training of how to hold it, timing, distance, and execution. Sure you can train it, but I certainly wouldn't rely on it in a real fight, nor would I even realistically try to use it in a real fight because of the risk of how damaging it can be. Use something like that, ya might end up in jail for assault.

About mimmicing the animals from what jim said earlier. Yeah, I see your point Jim, and agree with you to some extent. No, they are not mimicing the animal fully, but are instead taking aspects of the animal and applying to them (or mimmicing them - semantics) to the human body. For example, tigers never push back their prey. They always bring it in towards them when they claw. Tiger boxers also do this when they strike, always consuming the opponet and bringing them in closer and closer. Monkeys are playful, and a lot of that is transfered into monkey boxing. They do not straight up mimmic the animal completely, but definately borrow traits and aspects from the animal.

A friend of mine teaches 7 animals of shaolin, and a few of my other friends are his students. I get most of this information from him. I know parts of the losttrack form, and certain techs and basic basic theories of animal boxing. Parts of it do come from mimmicing an animal. IMHO, wing chun does not concern itself with preserving the art, digging through how things were done in the past, etc. It concerns itself with evolution. It was a revolutionary system back in the day (400 yrs ago) and made a name for itself because its a no BS, straight forward combat system. It cut out all the huge archs, circling, highly conditioned strikes and techs, and optimized them all to be more effecient with the human structure.

Maybe thats why wing chun can't produce a professional level champion. Too much dwellin the past and no evolution for the future. Times change, technology has changed (and made a HUGE impact on our lives), fighting has changed, and how we physically condition and train our bodies have changed.

[anerlich]

Those aren't super secret ancient deadly attacks no longer taught to the public because of how dangerous they are. They are just old techniques that were found not as effecient as using the natrual human structure.

I can assure you that strikes such as tiger claw, phoenix eye, dragon claw and fist and the rest can be extremely efficient in causing damage and pain. They usually require skill and at least some conditioning for effective use, whereas the sun punch and palm strikes can be applied by most with reasonable effectiveness from day one. The punch is not more "sophisticated" than the other hand formations. Arguably its simplicity is what makes it most effective.

Do you really believe hordes of our ancestors went along for centuries thinking that you HAD to base efficient fighting styles on animal movements, and then some bright spark, in a dream or under the influence of some ganja which had been thrown on the campfire by mistake, or something else, said "hey! I just had a brainwave! Why don't we make up a fighting style based on the way humans move, not animals?"

And who, other than those under the influence of ingested or internally produced psychoactive chemicals, ever saw those mythical animals, the dragon and the phoenix, and their movements upon which, according to those stories, the styles are based?

To say this sounds highly improbable is being very kind IMO. More likely they based the NAMES of their techniques on animal movements, and the stories developed with the Chinese propensity for legends and their use in hiding the more prosaic true history.

In BJJ we have the "turtle" position, "butterfly" and "spider" guards, and the "mata leo", the "lion killer", rear naked choke. It's fairly obvious that the names came after the moves in this case.

Evolution is not "advancement", but adaptation to prevailing conditions. Arguably the "pinnacle" of evolution remains the huge variety of unicellular organisms. Assuming mankind as the "pinnacle" of evolution is unscientific speciesism.

[Vajramusti]

Hi Ray-
post facto and post mortem there can be opinions on where Ip Man got this or that.

But as opinions go, I dont think that IM got the phoenix eye from
outside of wing chun.

As a handshape different versions of the phoenix eye exists/existed in several different southern systems including southern tong long, chow gar, hakka etc. But the other ystems use different mechanics for the training and delivery of the phoenix eye.

Ip man's usage is inseparable from Ip man's wing chun structure.
One of his remaining elderly Foshan students still has it as part of his motions.

Ip Man just didnt use it in his public classes.

[Vajramusti]

Gangsterfist sez:

That sounds like it could be accurate, a lot of foot work in certain YM families is from lost track.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess I dont know those families.

[Vajramusti]

Ray :

the story about getting a painful strike between the thumb and index finger==makes sense.

Dont care to open up silly discussions on dim mak points of the body.
Accurately hitting let alone locating them in motion is quite problematic.

But even in boxing "relatively" light hits "on the spot" can be quite damaging... most recently Hopkins liver shot to de la Hoya..
there are other cases in various sports as well.

[black and blue]

Just to add..... with the PE fist it doesn't matter where it lands - the strike isn't location specific. Hitting somewhere soft penetrates, hitting somewhere hard (forehead for example).... well, you can imagine. If you can't imagine do the test.

A test:

Take your right hand (or left as the case may be) away from the mouse you are holding, form it into a PE fist, swing arm up so that the prominent knuckle of said fist hits forehead.

See! It hurts like Buggery! :D

[CFT]

[i]A test:

Take your right hand (or left as the case may be) away from the mouse you are holding, form it into a PE fist, swing arm up so that the prominent knuckle of said fist hits forehead.

See! It hurts like Buggery! :D [/B]See what you've done - everyone's looking at me funny now!!! :p

I'm learning WCK under Derek Frearson in the UK - a student of sifu Lun Jie (the Yip Man Foshan student mentioned by Joy). We practice all the forms with the Phoenix eye as the punch, although in drills and sparring we use the normal sun character punch. We are frequently warned about hitting hard objects without adequate conditioning beforehand.

[black and blue]

Hi to a fellow Brit!

Yes, when I spoke (earlier in this thread) about YM's teachings in China before moving to HK, Lun Jie was the man I was talking about. Do you plan to visit him at any point? As far as I know he's still alive, no?

If Derek is the person I'm thinking of, I think I read somewhere that he also teaches Mantis and Yang style Taiji.

Can you say a little more about the form you learn from Lun Jie lineage? Do they differ from the 'regular' YM sets?

Cheers,

Duncan

[Vajramusti]

B & B sez:
Just to add..... with the PE fist it doesn't matter where it lands - the strike isn't location specific. Hitting somewhere soft penetrates, hitting somewhere hard (forehead for example).... well, you can imagine.

See! It hurts like Buggery!
------------------------------------------------------------
I am not a Brit- helped lower the Brit flag at my school in 1947!!

Havent heard the term "buggery" much since those days- except for the occasional reminder of Churchill's alleged remark that the
old Brit navy was kept afloat by rum, the lash and buggery.
No offense intended.

A good developed wc PE would work on soft or hard with the right sensitivity and mechanics. The mechanics would be different from Hsing I or tong long, chow gar etc..

CFT is right on Lun Jie's usage of PE. Elements of his form is in Leung Ting's (who else<g>) book on the roots of wc.
I believe that KJ may have met Lun Jie in one of her China trips..

He looks quite old- but I dont know much about his abilities
as a practitioner or teacher or the frequency of his teaching.

He was around but unfortunately neglected like Lok Yiu and others in the opening of the IM tong festivities... according to hearsay.

[Nick Forrer]

Lun Gai can be seen briefly at the end of the world conference VCD demonstrating on the MYJ.

I have to say the little I saw looked good - crisp and powerful.

I have *heard* that when Derek Freasons guys first met him they asked him why he performed SLT with a PE. He responded 'for power' and then walked over to a metal water tank and put his knuckle through it.

As always usual anecdote caveats apply.

[black and blue]

Well, its a real shame if Lun Jie was neglected - as far as I remember is he is one of the two only remaining YM students from YM's mainland China days!
Sad to have passed up the opportunity of presenting such info... but then again, if Lun Jie's WCK looks very different from its HK counterpart, perhaps the neglect was deliberate (!).

Also sorry to hear you had to 'raise the flag' (well, sorry if it was forced upon you).

Regarding rum, lashings and buggery.... twas these three things that enabled us to rule the world!!!!!! (chin held high) :D And besides, what more could a sailor need, hehehehehe.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
I am not a Brit- helped lower the Brit flag at my school in 1947!!


And yet the Anglo-Indian Love affair continues apace:)

Joint statement (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page6364.asp)

[CFT]

Originally posted by black and blue
Yes, when I spoke (earlier in this thread) about YM's teachings in China before moving to HK, Lun Jie was the man I was talking about. Do you plan to visit him at any point? As far as I know he's still alive, no?Hi Duncan,

Yes, sifu Lun Jie is still alive AFAIK. As for visiting China for training purposes, I think it is somewhat premature for me. Also, I can't see myself convincing the wife that it is 'a good idea'.


If Derek is the person I'm thinking of, I think I read somewhere that he also teaches Mantis and Yang style Taiji.Yes, Derek teaches Seven Star Praying Mantis and Yang style Taijiquan. He teaches the weapons forms as well as the empty hand ones. In WCK, we are also taught the pole and knives (I'm nowhere near that level yet). As a matter of interest - we do flip the knives over.


Can you say a little more about the form you learn from Lun Jie lineage? Do they differ from the 'regular' YM sets?Well I've only learn the first form by rote, so my understanding of it is not good. The grouping of moves in SNT seems to be largely the same, e.g. 1 tan and 3 fook/wu. Some of the later movements in the form seem a bit different - e.g. tan down to gaun sau and back three times. But then there is considerable variation amongst Yip Man's HK students isn't there?

The palm in our tan saus are level, but the edge of the palm is higher than the thumb (like in Yuen Kay San WCK if I remember correctly).

On a side note, we have recently started inter-style sparring with our Praying Mantis bretheren. I've still got the bruises to prove it!!

[black and blue]

Thanks for the Lun Jie info, although I'm not Wing Chunning much these days, it's still interesting to read.

I'd love to visit Derek's kwoon sometime when next back in the UK.


Joy,

Opps. My bad - misread the whole flag thing. Up and down... such simple concepts but I seem to have confused myself (much like my XingYi and Chen Taiji "open and close")

;)

[CFT]

Originally posted by black and blue
I'd love to visit Derek's kwoon sometime when next back in the UK.He mentioned a few weeks ago that he was headed out your way (Hungary ... he wasn't that specific) for a lion dancing tournament I think.

I'll check this weekend and supply details if you're at all interested.

[black and blue]

That would be great, thanks.

If he's in Budapest I'd love to meet him, even if not for training - could go for a beer, chat martial arts etc, show him around if he's got a free moment and is not familiar with the city.

Ta

Duncan

[Vajramusti]

Nick sez:

And yet the Anglo-Indian Love affair continues apace
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

True.

BTW- there hangs in my late maternal grandfather's old Kolkata house
an old commendation signed by Churchill when he was Secretary(?) of the Brit Navy. That grandfather (a famous surgeon in his time) had helped raise and train an ambulance corps in WW 1.

[kj]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
CFT is right on Lun Jie's usage of PE. Elements of his form is in Leung Ting's (who else<g>) book on the roots of wc.
I believe that KJ may have met Lun Jie in one of her China trips..

Yes. I met him in '98 or '99. We had tea with him early in the day, and dinner later that night. He is indeed familiar with PE.


He looks quite old- but I dont know much about his abilities
as a practitioner or teacher or the frequency of his teaching.


Perhaps not a spring chicken, but robust enough when I saw him. Unless circumstances have changed, I think Lok Yiu is having a rougher time of it at present.

Lun Gai was very generous in demonstrating several forms for us, and in exchange for demonstrations from our group. One will always find small differences in sequences or movement from line to line or person to person, but overall the sequence of his forms and the character of his movements were within the typical range of what is seen stemming from Yip Man in Hong Kong.


He was around but unfortunately neglected like Lok Yiu and others in the opening of the IM tong festivities... according to hearsay.

I was not there, but I also heard about this - quite vehemently - from some who were there with them. These were apparently among several very obvious and hurtful oversights at that event. Little doubt such faux pas in part prompted Tsui Sheung Tin's subsequent and very eloquent letter to the organizing committee. Fortunately, there were at least a few who were thoughtful and considerate enough to see that they were at least informally acknowledged.

Regards,
- kj

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


IMHO, wing chun does not concern itself with preserving the art, digging through how things were done in the past, etc. It concerns itself with evolution.

I have totally disagree with you. Its not about digging its about doing WCK. Maybe for "some" they are more interested in figuring out something new or discarding something so it fits better for them instead of spending the time to cultivate it (or maybe doing another art if this art is not right for them versus having to change it so much) but WC was already designed/defined a long time ago. There came a point in time when WC became WC and while the "platform or teaching progression" may have been evolving the tools/structure, ways of issuing ging, recieving energy, etc. were/are the central core of WC essence. So, knowing that there are many who preserve the art or methods of WCK I ask you again; Who are the people you mention who do not concern themselves with preserving the art of WCK? Who are the people you keep mentioning who discard WC tools that have been around since its founding? JR

;)

It was a revolutionary system back in the day (400 yrs ago) and made a name for itself because its a no BS, straight forward combat system. It cut out all the huge archs, circling, highly conditioned strikes and techs, and optimized them all to be more effecient with the human structure.

As was/did South Mantis, Dragon, Whitebrow! Example:

WCK has Sun Punch that strikes right up the centerline!
South Mantis have Jik Choi that follow the same line! Exact same line!!

Which is more straight forward? Which optimizes the human structure more? Did you know Jook Lum South mantis is younger than WCK? Does that mean its more modern and technological than WCK? I am playing devils advocate here but I think you get the point. JR


Maybe thats why wing chun can't produce a professional level champion. Too much dwellin the past and no evolution for the future.

Is it really about dwelling in the past or what the people put into it? JR

Times change, technology has changed (and made a HUGE impact on our lives), fighting has changed, and how we physically condition and train our bodies have changed.

Has the human body really changed that much in the past few hundred years? Have we figured out a faster way to align our bodies? Have we figure out a faster way to change the tendons/sinews? Have we figured out a faster way to achieve relaxation? Certain evolution is obvious in our art and natural but some evolution takes us backwards IMO. Some doesn't!


Just some thoughts!


See ya,