Baji

[Black Belt Jones 1]

Anyone here ever learn this? I would like to find out more about it.

[Daredevil]

I asked the same question on this board not too long ago, got good answers and am now actually practising the art. I don't have anything to add to what was earlier said though - the guys were right.

So, dig up the old posts and you'll find the info.

[Shaolindynasty]

Jim Kelly.....yeah :cool:

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[shinwa]

I started training it yesterday through a friend. And it seriously kicks ass.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Man the internet has it All (http://www.bodymindharmony.com/BAJI.HTM)

"Life's a great Adventure, Mate"
Jacko Jackson

[baji-fist]

Hi Blackbelt Jones!

I practice bajiquan under Sifu Kurt Wong who learned it from Master Su Yu Chang and GM Liu Yun Qiao. I started out with Preying Mantis and Chen Taiji before studying Baji. Ever since I saw my sifu perform Baji, I have always wanted to learn it. It is a very explosive and direct art. If you have the opportunity to learn it, try it out. SO far I am loving every minute of it.

You must eat bitter before you can taste sweet.

[Stranger]

Baji is cool.

Consider this, The Last Emperor Pu-Yi, Chiang Kai-Shek, and Mao Tse-Tung ALL had their bodyguards train in Baji/Piqua. They could have had anything, and this was their choice. Sounds like a hardy endorsement to me.

Wu-Tang's "bread and butter" are these styles, and WT is an enormously postive force in the world of traditional Chinese martial arts.

Comments I have heard about baji:

"It is like hsing i on steroids."

"It is like Chen tai chi to the tenth power."

It peaks my curiosity.
If there was a teacher nearby, I'd be checking it out.


I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

[Nexus]

I've had an interest in studying with Kurt Wong but my plate is already full with my studies for now. Probably will be for another 20 years too, perhaps I'll study with you one day though :o)

- Nexus

[RAF]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/
http://www.bajimen.org/
http://www2.micro-net.com/~ycsu/
http://kabooom.com/htmls/
http://www.geocities.com/pao_chuan/wutanhp.html
http://www.wutan.org/
http://www.chikung.net/

These are some of the baji websites that teach the system as passed down from Li Shu Wun to Liu Yun Qiao.

http://www.goviamedia.com/

At the above site, you can back order two volumes of the article:

Bajiquan & Piguazhang--Part I: Foundational Training Methods, Robert A. Figler and Tony X.D. Yang, Journal of Asian Martial Arts volume 8 No. 4 1999 and

Bajiquan & Piguazhang--Part II: Foundational Training Methods, Robert A. Figler and Tony X.D. Yang, Journal of Asian Martial Arts volume 9 No. 1, 2000

These two articles were based on Tony Yang's 8 year experience with Liu Yun Qiao. We also sell a semi-professional tape on the baji/pigua combination form with a lot of basic training.

There is also a tape put out by the Wu Tan Development Center, in Chinese, which gives a pretty good overview of baji in Taiwan.

http://www.plumpub.com/
Has Adam Hsu's tapes and Wu Lianzhi's VCDs at a very reasonable price.

My apologies to those I may have left out but there is now a subtantial amount of baji on the market.

Tony Chen also teaches a style of baji and is located in California.

Good Luck

Su Yu Zhang's tapes are pretty good especially regarding the applications.

[JWTAYLOR]

I've always heard that baji was for the chef, and piqua was for the lumberjack.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Chang Style Novice]

Interesting. I seem to remember Sifu Hwang saying he'd studied Bajiquan - wonder if he could be convinced to pass some of that along?

JWT -

Can you translate that into comprehensible for us, please?

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[Wong Ying Home]

I teach the Ma style Ba Ji, a little differnet from Liu's but same thing in essence, excellent system, I highly reccomend it to anyone, does not suit really tall people that well though

[kungfu cowboy]

What's really tall? Does 6'4" count? Why is it not well suited?

[JWTAYLOR]

many little chops and strikes in rapid succession (like a chef's knife chopping) and big smashing chops and strikes (like a lumberjack swinging an ax.)

I never new Hwang studied Baji.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[RAF]

Wong Ying Home

Is the Ma style that you practice from Ma Shen Da of Xian, Shaanxi province. I recently obtained a VCD of a baji player from Xian, I believe, although variations exists, it looks very good.

Also found Wu Lianzhi baji forms very different in execution but the applications and jiben gong practice was essentially the same.

[Water Dragon]

Roayal Dragon, you know Jim Kelly?

Most actions of men can be explained by observing a pack of dogs. Not wild dogs, just neighborhood dogs who all scurry under the fence on the same night and set off together to reclaim a glimmer of the glory their species possessed before domestication.

[Asia]

Now that I got your attention, (Hey it worked for Ralek/Rolls/Jaki)

How many Baji players are here. I heard there was a few. I would like to meet and share info with them. Don't worry this isn't an attempt to turn you into soldiers of the BWO (well not yet anyways;) )
When I am done playing army in the snow I hope to be able to share some info and material (I have a massive library on Baji from books, articles, videos, and vcds. plus little regard to copyright:cool: err...just kidding that was a joke I am a fine lawbiding citizen;) ) Seriously I invite all Baji/piqua players to disucss the art. Right now I don't have a Baji sifu, and haven't found one in germany, I trying to keep up until I find another plus make some more friends along the way.

[Ralek]

I am not Jacki. If you don't believe me then just check my IP address.

Aisa. Does your friend know how to get to frederick?

[Xebsball]

Akira from Virtua Fighter was made intencionally better than the other charactors to try to persuade people to Baji style.

I know your domination plans, you wont get away with it!


Anyway, i think Mr. Nemo is a Baji guy if i recall corectly...

[KungFuGuy!]

Xebsball, are you serious about that? Where did you hear that from?

[Xebsball]

Well it was on a sort of Virtua Fighter 2 informative thing, ill se if i find it...

It said that they wanted Akira to be the best in Virtua Fighter 1, but something went wrong and on the tournaments in Japan Lau was the best in the game. The winner of the tournament (probably a official Sega sponsored tournament) was a Lau player and a Akira player got second place.

So on Virtua Fighter 2 they fixed Akira to be the real best. On the tournament this time the first place was a Akira player and the second a Wolf player.

Could be just rumors, but i belive that. Akira does have the best techniques on VF2, altough i find it hard to master his moves, he is second the most complicated to play (Shun is harder) but once you do you should be almost undefeateble.

[Asia]

Actually X Baji appeared in several japanese video games and shows way before VF. I think VF was when westerners started noticing it. I started baji/hakkyokuken in japan and I found a lot of pple already enthusiastic with the art.

(PS: You keep blabbing about my plans and I will send Baji zombies to TP your house!!! HAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!)


Wong Ying Home
Where in England are you? I have family in England, they live around Lakenheath AFB, and I was hoping to visit them soon, possibly April. I wouldn't mind taking a side trip if it isn't too far.

(pitty I wanted this thread to be RF (Ralek Free) oh well:( )

[Xebsball]

(no zombies can pass through the door with the little buddha figure i have now in my living room, it scares them away)

I was made a little mistake, on VF 1 Lau got first and Wolf got second, Akira lost to Kage.

I should stop hijacking your thread by now :D

[Mr. Nemo]

I am a Baji guy, but only a beginning one. Still doing tiger/bear drills. I'm from Lee Su-Wen's Baji, which is really Baji/Pigua (though we actually learn pure Pigua later).

Hey, I wonder what would happen if we got all the Baji guys to stomp at once? I'm think 8+ on the Richter scale.

[Daredevil]

Heya,

I'm a baji guy as well. I'm learning (Baji and Taiji currently) from Lu Baochen, in Finland. www.kolumbus.fi/baji for some details.

[Asia]

Great now we are getting somewhere! Any more zombi....er players?

[RAF]

Asia
http://www.wutangcenter.com/

Check out the articles and photos. There is a short clip of the baji/pigua combination form.

Stop by in October and you can participate in the Hall of Fame tournament dedicated to the legacy of the late GM Liu Yun Qiao. Master Su Yu Chang usually does a seminar or two during that time.

Also, if you ever get a chance to visit, someone will demonstrate the 2nd and 3rd levels of the baji sword (first level is kun wu sword and training).

http://www.goviamedia.com/journal/articles.html. iIn 199 and 2000 we put out two reasonably detailded articles on baji training and pigua training.

Also new tapes by the retired General from Taiwan have some quick clips of Liu Yun Qiao playing a number of things. His bookds can be ordered from http://www.plumpub.com/

Xiao baji, standing and moving one punch and da qiang is all you need until you get a teacher.

You, as are others, are always welcome to stop by our school in Akron, Ohio.

Good luck

[count]

Asia, I knew you would recruit them all on your crusade :D

Hey, Mr Nemo, where have ya been?

OT: does anyone know who sent me the really great Baji videos and VCD's for Christmas. There was no card or return address and it was a really great gift. Oh well, Thanks alot if you are looking in.:)

[Brad]

Our teacher knows Baji but noone ever really asks to learn it :-( I learned half of Xiao Baji and have a book he wrote in Chinese. I think I might restart my Baji training. I also have one of Su Yu Chang's Baji video tapes. Very cool stuff. Lets see...here in Ohio we have Tony Yang in the north, An Tian Rong in the middle, now we just need one Baji teacher to secure the south... :D

[Tainan Mantis]

Some Baji schools do Tai Dzu Chang Chuen. If anyone here knows it I have some questions.

[count]

You might check out http://www.bajimen.com for your answers. But your right there in Taiwan. Why don't you check out the Wu Tang school there?:)

[RAF]

Tainan Mantis

Tai zu quan of Liu Yun Qiao is very difficult to find. I have seen some of its movements demonstrated but know of no one teaching it in the curriculum of the Wu Tan(g) system.

Its played as slow as standard Yang taijiquan and has very difficult one legged squats etc..

If you find anyone in Taiwan teaching it, please post.

Brad: I learned Master An's ba da zhao baji. Also have his xiao baji. If you can get him to teach you. His style is different from Wu Lian Zhi and ours but it is close enough. It is really nice. He knows some pretty interesting applications. Master An once put a young ****y Chinese waiter to the floor in one movement. The guy was teasing him about how much martial arts he knew. Never underestimate Master An.

[Mr. Nemo]

Count: I was in New Mexico, visiting my sister over the christmas break. I'll be back on Saturday.

[Asia]

Come to the dark side COUNT come!!!!!:D (I'll convert you yet!)

RAF,

Thanks for the invite if/when I find myself in that neck of the woulds I will definitely look you up.

I have serval books on baji, mostly in Japanese. I have own the centers around applications of the forms, "Hakkyokuken Sentouriron" by Aoki if you co here you can follow a this link http://w3.to/martial-art (arigato Hokuto-san:D) this have secitons of his book showing liudakai ˜Z‘åŠJ. Take a look and tell me what you think.

[Polaris]

Is Baji similair to Hsing-I?

[Royal Dragon]

I too am researching Tai Tzu If anyone can help me set up contacts with its practitioners over seas, it would be most appreciated.

Right now, I have several of the Southern sets, and one of the Northern sets. The line I have learned came from Chao Yuh Feng for the most part, but bits of Tai Tzu from other lines are in there as well.

The Southern Tai Tzu has 6-8 empty hand forms total

The Northern Tai Tzu has 8-12 empty hand forms total.

Liu Yun Qiao's line apparently descended from the Ming dynasty and was a single form containig 300+ moves. I'm not sure if what I do is that form broken down into smaller peices, or just earlyer stages of the training. So far my stuff is external and fast in nature, but it could easily be done slowly too.

If you go to my stie, I have some Info on the style. Some of the Chen style stuff i have is not entirely accurate and i plan to re do it now that I know more, but it's informative.

If you go to http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/Taitzuchangchuan.htm

You will see I have a Tai Tzu form posted. It is the form from General Qi Jiguangs book written during the Ming Dynasty. it is suposed to be the original 32 move form invented by Chao, Kuang Yin. Liu Yun Qiao's form I suspect, represents Tai Tzu's advanced level of perfection. I'm still researching it, but I think all other Tai Tzu forms are ranked somewhere between the two.


Royal Dragon

[RAF]

I appreciate your post, Royal Dragon.

I don't know much about Liu Yun Qiao's Tai Zu Quan except what has been posted by the Toronto site of Guo Laoshi and my own teacher.

When I first started, I wanted to learn that system but no one else wanted to and at that time, we never asked our teacher for anything. You took what he gave.

I also think that the form came from Liu's family bodyguard, the mi zong i master but don't know for sure.

Its sad but I know of no one in the Wu Tan(g) system who teaches this and its probably lost. My own teacher is very quiet regarding it. My suspicion is that he may have it written down somewhere and not interested in teaching it.

Re: Xing Yi and Baji. Similar in some training aspects and both employ the wu xing (five elements) but delivery of power and techniques are different. I have heard some say Xing Yi came from Baji and heard the other argument that Baji came from Xing Yi. I've given up on history. Too many twists and turns. One of the best guys I know in baji also does some of the Xing Yi and does it well. He says he feels very comfortable in it. My teacher knows the da qiang training of Xing Yi and demonstrated a bit of it. Its somewhat different. My teacher has always said if you have baji you don't need xing yi and if you have xing yi you don't need baji. The only think I like with the baji system is you can hook up with pigua zhang. I think for any system the most important thing is to get the very basic training.

I always love Liu Yun Qiao's quote that Northern Chinese martial arts systems are all sons of the same mother.

Asia: I don't know anything about the comics etc.. One of our students from Indonesia read them and it helped start his quest for baji. I heard they are mainly about Su Yu Chang since it was his student who created them. Maybe that's not correct, just what I heard.

I'll check out your site.

[Brad]

Brad: I learned Master An's ba da zhao baji. Also have his xiao baji. If you can get him to teach you. His style is different from Wu Lian Zhi and ours but it is close enough. It is really nice. He knows some pretty interesting applications. Master An once put a young ****y Chinese waiter to the floor in one movement. The guy was teasing him about how much martial arts he knew. Never underestimate Master An.
Lol, the problem is he'll teach us basically whatever we ask him :D It's too tempting to bounce around from style to style(esp. when we're all college age kids who want to learn EVERYTHING!). I took a month off from training(working :( ) and decided I have to buckle down and pick one thing and stick to it. In that first year I was with him I bounced around between 5 different styles(not including my Taiji which is constant). When I looked back I was like,"Wow, I now suck at 5 differnt styles!" I've decided Bajiquan is it. It's the first of 'em I tried and seemed to come the most naturaly(Xingyi too, but it felt harder on my knee ).

Never underestimate Master An.
You've got that right!

[Royal Dragon]

Just ask him to teach you the system.

Heck, if he speaks english, give ME his number, and "I'LL" ask him!!!

Mayby if you are respectful and nice, he will teach it to you. At the very least you should find out what the system consists of.

Something you should know, Tai Tzu is an EXTERNAL style. Well, mostly. You see, the Chao family had an internal version of it that was closely gaurded. As far as I know the only aspect of it widely taught was the Taji Ruler. Even Chao, Yuh Feng who taught the system here in the US. actually taught alot of Taji Hsing I and Bagua. Very little of his family's internal Tai Tzu that I know of.

Now I find out it is not only alive outside of the Chao family, but intact? I HAVE to get this set, and as much depth to it as I can, just because it's so rare!!!!

My Guess, based on what little I know is Liu's family bodyguard must have had contacts with the Chao Family. Maybe he was a body guaurd for them at some point and learned the closed door aspect of Tai Tzu? I don't know, but this forms description fits the legends of Tai Tzu's internal version much better than the 64 and 37 move (looks like Yang) style Taji I was taught as being internal Tai Tzu.

Any help tracking this down would be appreciated.

Gian

[RAF]

Royal Dragon

I appreciate your thoughts, but I have been with him for over 13 years (I have also gone through the ke tou ceremony) and he is not interested in teaching it to anyone. He says he forgot the system, which is a pretty direct answer for me: you have enough material, don't bother me. He is right.

I can only tell you that it is done slow, relaxed, and co-ordinated deep breathing and is very physically demanding (one legged squats done slowly).

I hope you keep posting the material you find. I would be interested in seeing the form. Many years ago someone by the name of Dave Kash had a video out and it was reviewed in IKF. I regret never buying it at that time.

Sorry to disappoint you about the tai zu quan.

[RAF]

Royal Dragon

I've been with him for 13 years (ke tou ceremony, also). Asked about the system for many years and his answer is that he forgot it. Might be true, but I know he is not interested in teaching it or even discussing it.

I can only add one last piece: 1) each movement is done slowly, 2) it is a physically demanding form (e.g. one legged squats, done slowly), and 3) breath follows the movements.

I once had a chance to buy a tape on this by Dave Kash but failed to do so. In the mid 80s, many years before I had access to baji/pigua and the upper levels of our bagua, I was really interested in learning the form. The only interest I have in it now is to simply see it. If you know of any good videos, please post.

Sorry to disappoint you.

[Royal Dragon]

I have sources for further learning, I just want THIS perticular form because it appears to be the internal set from the system.

I am currently learning Tai Tzu from Kash's younger martial brother. He is an inheritor to Chao's system. The problem I'm having, is it seems Chao taught more Hsing I, Bagua and Taji than Tai Tzu. This has led me on a quest to get the rest of the system. It's kind of cool, as I have been in contact with many Tai Tzu players (and a Master or two) over the last few years.


Liu Yun Qiao's line seems to be the only one that is described in an internal sounding way, and I'm dying to get my grubby little hands on it. :D


Basically Tai Tzu seems to be spread out. every one has a bit of all three external divisions, but no one has it all. Every one "I" talked to, specialise in an aspect of it. My Sifu is actively researching the areas he's less educated in, and getting results. In the end, I think he will eventually have a majority of it and I'm sure it will be passed on down to me.

Royal Dragon

[count]

Nice try Asia, but 6 months of stomping and slamming trees is enough for me. You can keep that Baji. But when you get to LA I will show you some great stuff. BTW, if it was you who sent the tapes and VCD's, I hope there is no mindwashing subliminal messeges embeded in them.:D

[RAF]

Bagua, Baji, China, Qingdao Footage
Master Ma Long of WuTang USA has put out a new website with lots of great footage.

If you to the Tournaments and Events demo, you will see the Hall of Fame Tournament and in the clippings (the film clip is long) you will see parts of the two man taiji sword, Jason Tsou's students demonstrating some two man bagua fighting, lan jie, 8 step, baji, pigua etc. Also, the baji sections shows a demonstration of GM Liu and scenes from near CangZhou, Hebei (home of baji).

Other demos have clippings from Yellow Mountain (HuangShan) where some of the scenes from Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon were filmed.

http://www.wutang.org/

Great job on the footage!

[Brad]

http://www.wutang.org/styles/demo/baji_film.wmv

Includes old photage of Wu-Tan's late grandmaster...

RAF posted this on the internal forum, and I thought I'd bring it over here :D

http://www.wutang.org

[Brad]

must... save... thread!

It was over halfway to the bottom allready! Hopefully it'll still be around when I get home from class! :p

[RAF]

Brad:

The form on the film is baji Lei Huan. You can see the complete form on Master Su's 2 tape series. Master Su actually teaches the entire form and applications. They play GM Liu in segments, then Master Su teaches the segment. Also applications are very interesting and there is a lot of basic training. Only trouble is that it is in Japanese.

Master Su's pigua tape is also very good. It has footage from him when he was very young and his pigua is very clean and fast.

[Brad]

cool, I'm still working on Xiao Baji myself. Trying to hold the postures :eek: I've been thinking about getting his Pigua tape... his videos are excellent :)

[RAF]

Here is the standard formula suggested for training in xiao baji.

Holding postures for 8 breaths, to the 8 structural parts of the body is the ultimate goal. I don't know anyone who has trained it consistently except for one guy, Jimmy Finley and you probably saw him play at the Master's demonstration.

We usually start with 3 breaths, then 4 breaths and try 8 on some of the postures.

Here is the standard menu: 3 sets, 3 times a day, 3 years with da qiang exercises in between sets. The last set (of each 3 set) is played with fajing expression and nothing is held. Again, this is the ideal. We modify it to meet our needs so results are slow and I wouldn't expect much in the first year. The sinking jing is what you may first notice and you probably will notice it in your other forms, especially taiji (in my case, Chen's).

Since I started late, when alternating baji and bagua days, I play xiao baji (although I now do Liu Da Kai on occassion when I want to work more with the qiang or the sword). Your teacher taught us his form of Ba Da Zou and its nice, especially his applications.

There also is a tape from a baji player in Xian which tracks your verison of xiao baji (good tape)---its in vcd (Chinese) and Ted Mancuso gave me a copy of it. I did not get much from the VCDs of Wu Liang Zhu (my wife bought me the entire set when she went home to Beijing and they sell for about $1.00 a piece in China) Check Ted Mancuso's website and good luck. You also have Master An's baji book.

No magic but once you get hooked you'll love it!

PS. I have seen a lot of Master Su when he was young. His bagua is also outstanding and so was his mantis.

[guohuen]

Thanks Brad. That was exellant. Nice to see real Gong Fu for a change.

[Tainan Mantis]

RAF,
I have seen 2 films of Su Yuzhang doing PM when young. Both times doing Luanjie.
Once on a stage and once in a small kung fu school(1964).
What other footage of him have you seen doing PM?

This question doesn't include Baji and Pigua which I have seen him doing a bit of on tape when young.

[Kristoffer]

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[RAF]

Tainan Mantis:

Got a little carried away on the post and its a diversion form the original topic.

I have seen the Lan Jie tape and also there is a tape where he spars with my teacher Yang Xiao-dong (literally climbing up the back leg of my teacher and very fast). I have some footage of my teacher when he was in his 20s in Taiwan dong 5-8 Qi Qing Zai Yao, beng bu, li pi, lai men dao, and they all came from Master Su. Interesting beng bu has 3 levels. As far as Mantis goes, I have the Pimen and the other mantis tape. Also saw his tape of him, about 12 years ago, with him and 6 harmony master from China but he doesn't play. My teacher has a lot of tapes but they are his treasure and we only get to see them on ocassion. I have a short footage of a Wu Tan guy in the 70s doing a demonstration in a HS gymn of lan jie and never have seen such fast hand movement and grace. I have never seen anyone play a mantis forms with such speed and grace. Unfortunately, I understand this person quit the arts many, many years ago.

Relevant but diverts from your basic inquiry, sorry but you got me thinking of your old training days.

I have, and saw him doing, 64 internal palms (bagua), when he was very, very young and some other things (can't remember them), I also have a private tapping of him doing a baji form on his visit in 1990. I took a number of seminars from him and he hit me lightly once and of course, it hurt. I like Master Su and he is a lot fun. My teacher says he is an encyclapedia ( no da*n spell check)

Praying mantis was my teacher's first love and he spent a lot of time with Master Su before he left for South America. I love good mantis and you can see Andy Lianto from Indonesia (Tony's student) doing one versions of lan jie on Ma Long's website of the Hall of Fame tournament. Next week they are doing a seminar on fen shen ba zhou. I learned a lot of the 1-6 single sets (3) and the two man fight along with a number of two man fighting exercises. That was all I played in the 1980s along with the abstracted forms of Chen's, Yang's and bagua. It was his preference that everyone go through basic praying mantis but I really never could get the springing flavor and grace. All of the mantis and fighting came from Master Su. I don't many forms but have a lot on tape for future nephews etc.. I understand a lot about mantis since I had been around it for so long and instinctively use in sparring or two man fights. However, at 49, there is only so much you can do and I am trying to do catchup in baji and bagua.

I think mantis is a very much underrated system. The first day we learned a number of stationary elbow uses and knee uses. He would have many of the young mantis players do tons of standing in place snap kicks. Also had them sit in a leg crossed position and do hand strikes and exercises. Saw and did an exercise which looked like push hands but came from 8 step, I believe. Also did an exercise where someone thrusts a staff at our center and you learn to move 45 degree blocking and grabbing. Used to start every session with about 8 or 9 of the orginal 18 lohan and ended with a series of stance holding. Some trained in the higher levels and complete systems of mantis (extensive elbow and knee work) would do well against a muay thai boxer and conditioning of mantis matches any wing chun training, too. Again, praying mantis is so underrated and you are in a very great position and I always enjoy your posts and Paul Lin's posts. Sorry for the long winded post but your question just drew out a lot of memories from days past. You don't know how lucky you are being where you are at and learning what you know. I hope you carry back the tradition to the public. Mantis is a very great system and I do know a few who have used it in the street (not forms but the kicking and single moving techniques) and its a viable system. Please keep up your great postings!

[Kristoffer]

good stuff, I certanly enjoyed this part:


Š~¤NŸÿ÷ƒBíàÓ Òÿÿ€©T‰æ·
XT€täÑ$JÀî¦A

again, great stuff

[Brad]

Hey Kristoffer,

Have you gotten the link to work yet? Try "right click, save as..."
Also, I think you need Windows Media Player to view it.

[Kristoffer]

Brad -
It's weird coz when I open a movie in Windows Media Player I can only hear the sound, but no image comes up. This has happend b4 and I have no clue what is wrong.

On Baji- www.emptyflower.com has alot of good old Pakua videos.

[NorthernMantis]

Kristoffer-

It just means that they're using a newer version of media player and you need to upgrade. I had to do it this morning and it was worth the download time.:)

[Kristoffer]

Heh, the computer wiz in me :rolleyes:
Hey N-Mantis, not to be a pain in the ass but where do I upgrade my WMP? thx

[Legendary_Fist]

Brad,

Here's another Baji vid for you. I don't know if you've seen this before, but its Baji's first form. Its quite beautiful.

Here it is, enjoy.

http://www.kolumbus.fi/baji/videoclips.htm

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i like that second video better

[Brad]

Check Ted Mancuso's website and good luck.
What the address for his website?

[RAF]

Brad:

http://www.plumpub.com/

His VCDs are very well priced for the US. Probably the best prices in the states. Jarek also sells them.

The VCD he gave me is similiar to the one posted on the Kolumbus site, which I also like very much too.

Differences in the flavors of baji have to do with the time frame over the life of Li Shu Wen and on the Kolumbus website I can easily see how it tracks the two xiao bajis I know.

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
Heh, the computer wiz in me :rolleyes:
Hey N-Mantis, not to be a pain in the ass but where do I upgrade my WMP? thx

When you open wmp go to help and in the submenu you will see "check for upgrade"

[Kristoffer]

ok thank's, I'll put it on my 'to-do' list

[Justa Man]

anyone have a link to see baji in application?

those forms look great indeed. just wish i could see some apps.

[RAF]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/bajiandfight.html

Here is a link to help show the fighting applications. We refer to this particular group of single moving postures as jin gang ba shi. This is where most students in our school start. The postures build into both xiao baji and da baji. Both xiao baji and da baji have their own A & B synchronized fight based on the form itself. We do a lot of stationary one punches (3 or 4 variations) and we do a lot of moving one punches alone and in application. We do a variation of the one punch and then elbow strike as a two man moving exercise. We also take the big pads and one guy holds in a posture and the other strikes. Here we use kicking, punching postures and move up and down an area.

Also do a lot of two man kao striking, learning to sink the weight in your strike.

Master Su's tapes have very good application demonstrations but are in Japanese. You get a written English transcript.

We also do exercises punching a tree but not the ones in the states. Taiwan has tree whose pulp is very soft and that is what is used. If you scroll down you can see one of these trees:
http://www.wutangcenter.com/masteryang.htm

We also bang on posts to learn full body strikes.


The training can get boring and much has to be done on your own. However, if you follow it correctly, you can really learn to punch well. If you start in your twenties and train intensly, you get all the health benefits of any internal system and the power to go with it. There is also neigong/qi gong training but it is based more on fighting applications.

[Justa Man]

thanks RAF.

you said "....if you start in your twenties...."

so if you are older you won't get the benefits you mention?

[Tainan Mantis]

RAF,
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but would like to find out.
There is the Yentai and Laiyang Bengbu sometimes called large and small.
There is also the Taiji PM version of Yentai Bengbu sometimes called middle.
Is this what you mean?
Or 3 types of training methods?

8 Elbows seminar...
What version of 8 Elbows?
Who and where?

And before I forget.
You posted a page with nice pics of Gao Daosheng. That was really nice.
Don't want to sound picky, but the 3rd character for his name is Sheng as in hsien sheng or "mister"

The web page listed it as Shen "spirit"

[RAF]

Tainan Mantis:

Thanks for the tip on Gao DaoSheng but I am not the webmaster so I'll pass it on.

Its been 12 years since I have done beng bu but the levels are small technique posture changes. I never learned the 2nd or 3rd levels but the changes are only small and in three or four places. Sometimes I think these are signatures of the teacher. The beng bu most likely came from Master Su.

The fen shen ba zhou seminar is at our school but no one can take it unless they complete qi qing zai yao 1-8. The qi qing zai yao I know has 6 harmony mantis in it. Supposedly a 6 harmony mantis wanted to make his form "harder" and so traded with a 7 star mantis master. The form has both 6 harmony and 7 star movements in it. All I know about the fen shen ba zhou is there are 4 forms and he is only teaching the first one. Sorry I can't help you more with the mantis. When Tony came to the United States, he spoke no English and most of his students were just regular guys. No Chinese majors etc.. So some of this is rough. I only know a bit of pinyin and spoken tongue. Taiwan accent is sometimes hard to translate into pinyin but we are working on it.

Later.

[Brad]

If you scroll down you can see one of these trees:
http://www.wutangcenter.com/masteryang.htm

cool, I never noticed it before, but I made it into the tournament pictures, lol. Well, about half of me at least :D

[RAF]

Justa Man:

Just reread my self-indugent BS. So I re-edit and want to try to keep things in the public as informational as is possible. E-mail me if you want to discuss the age thing.

I turned 49 last week and continue to train the baji basics. I got a late start in baji at age 40 and didn't really get into to it until 42. Its never too late but I don't train the pace of a 20 or 35 year old. Xiao baji and da qiang training really helped my taiji along. So there are days that taiji plays a greater role. Its never too late. You just adjust your pace and age. My xiao baji is 100 times better than it was 7 years ago.

My comment regarding the twenties was just wishful thinking of an "old" man as I watch and help train the young guys coming up in their 20s and only imagine what they will be like in their 30s if they keep at it. Its only looking back now that I can see so many things and how much time I wasted trying to find "the secret form" when all the gold is in the basics! You can play the basics as long as you breath.

If you have access to a good teacher, start at any age. I think you have to be realistic and know that the benchmark for benefits isn't a comparison of a 40 year old to a 20 year old. I think you cannot measure "benefits" by some outside benchmark. If you think about it, the measurement is an abstraction.

You would need "the ideal martial artist" to measure where you stand and no ideal exists. The comparision is dangerious when you look at others to gauge where you are at. Only you know where you started at and how far you've gone.

I think its terribly important to make sure you are also having fun doing martial arts. You know, a couple of laughs, good meals, friends & family, and fun times.

PS. I notice that you are a bagua practitioner. GM Liu used to tell his top disciples: "you will thank me in your old age for teaching you bagua." As I enter my 50s, bagua will come to dominate my training (baji can be played with little or no stomping and the da qiang exercises are really great for developing the body so they will stay). Although its complex in nature, from the standpoint of exercise, I think its the most complete system I have ever seen. The xiao kai men, 8 mother palms, the quasi-linear forms, the brick and ring training, all of the basics are really great. Even the bagua leg routine which is a bear to play is fantastic for conditioning. This is not to discount the fightng aspects, they too are superb!

[Kristoffer]

Is Pakua just another spelling for Bagua? Or are there differences?

[RAF]

Bagua Zhang, pa kua chang the same.

[Justa Man]

RAF

Happy Belated Birthday! :D I understand what you mean about age and pace. I guess I am grateful at my relatively young age (26) and my realizing the things you mention about basics and consistant pace, etc. If the basics are strong than whatever is built on top of that will be sound. I get as giddy as a 6 year old when I think that when I'm 40, I will have 18 years of pretty darn consistant training in ba gua.
It's true about measuring benefits. It's all relative to who is training. The art to me is more about the personal life long quest than anything else. But at the same time, I'm a real competitive person and find myself measuring myself up to my peers way too often.
I think GM Liu is right on RAF. The twisting energies that play out in ba gua are a godsend to the ligaments, tendons and joints. I feel terrible for our country's elderly. Go to any nursing home to see for yourself. But in the end I can only be thankful for stumbling onto the path of ba gua zhang and can only hope to show others how beneficial these arts can be.

What's the difference between Wu Tang and Wu Tan? anything?

[RAF]

Wu Tan v. Wu Tang (long before the musical group). I know in 1980 the banner my teacher brought from Taiwan already had Wu Tang on it. Wu Tan, alter upon which all traditional martial arts can be brought to and preserved.

http://www.wutan.org/

Go to the right side at the bottom and you can read the story of the name.

26 is a great age to be in it. I hope you continue your art.

Good luck in your training.

Who do you study with?

[Ren Blade]

I'm asking for a friend cause I personally don't follow up on traditional Baji and who's the best. I'm only aware that Adam Hsu is very qualified to teach it but he's relocated to Taiwan I heard but his school is still in operation in California. So where is some good traditional Baji training either in Virginia or Boston? My friend may move to Boston and personally I haven't seen much Baji here in Boston. Thanks in advance.

[Christopher M]

From here (http://www.hsing-i.com/teachers/index.html):

Leung Kay Chi
53 River Street
Central Square, MA 02139
(617) 497-4459

Is Adam Hsu's kungfu 'brother' - they are both disciples of Liu Yun Quao (http://www.bajimen.com/).

[Meat Shake]

Anyone got some good links on it? Ive heard a lot about it and its starting to stir my interest... That and the fact that Master Wang insists that it blends wonderfully with shuai chiao.
:D
thanks,
Meat Shake

[MonkeySlap Too]

I've stolen from tricks from it, but I'm no Baji guy. Do a web search... If you find Kai Yu out there, let me know. He was my brief Baji teacher in Chicago before he moved...

[WanderingMonk]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/

there are couple of baji clips but do check out the short film, the challenge.

[omarthefish]

Here's a thread devoted to collecting Baji links:

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12353

There's at least half a dozen good ones there.

Master Wang = John Wang?

[tigerwing]

Hey buddy,

I practiced Huo Stlye Baji for many yrs in Northeastern China when I was young, I might help you out if you can read Chinese...

[GeneChing]

Here's our baji video from Sifu Tony Chen (http://store.martialartsmart.net/vidbajquanei.html). I study under him, but he hasn't kicked down any baji to me yet. Maybe someday.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Here's a thread devoted to collecting Baji links:

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12353

There's at least half a dozen good ones there.

Master Wang = John Wang?

Omar,

MS is in Texas, study shuai chiao (Combat shuai chiao), I think you know what the answer to your question is.

Master Wang believes baji's power + PM hand techniques + shuai chiao's throw will make a excellent MCMA.

[SPJ]

Good links.

I grew up in Taiwan. Master Liu Yun Qiao and Zhang Xiang San were both great teachers of Liu He Mantis. Master Liu also taught students Ba Ji Quan.

I was only a student of student. So I had to call Master Liu Si Gong or grand teacher or teacher's teacher.

Here is a memorial site.

www.bajimen.com


:)

[count]

SPJ,

What years did you spend at Wu Tang, and are you saying you learned six harmonies praying mantis there?

[SPJ]

Hi;

I heard about Wu Tang which is a training center formed by Master Liu. I was never a student there. I studied with other teachers. I was not a direct discipleship with Master Liu. Both Liu and Zhang were big in the "70. I was in Chien Kuo High School, then. All the Kuo Shu clubs in high schools and colleges. They all teach mantis seven star mostly. Only a few Liu He. The Kuo Shu Club at Taiwan University (Tai Da), there are lessons for Liu He Mantis.

Most of my teachers are retiree from the services (Army, military police, air force, police etc).

[SPJ]

I was told that Wu Tang was to promote Wushu. Their curriculum were thus more generalized.

On the other hand, my mentorships with different teachers were more specific.

Some of the legends about lineage of Liu He Tang Lang.

Wei San was from Lai Yang Shan Dong. He robbed the rich and helped the poor. He was always wanted by the Qing government. His left hand was fused fingers except the thumb. He thus had the nickname "Duck web Wei San". One day, he was injured and hid in Lin Si Tzun house. He knew Lin's father. Out of gratitude, Wei San only taught Liu He Tang Lang to Lin.

Lin Si Tzun studied Luo Han Quan and Duan Tzwei with his father. He studied Mantis with Wei San for a decade. Once he singlehandedly defeated over 20 people. The millionare Ding hired him as security till 80 years old. In the mean time, he taught 2 people Mantis. Millionare Ding's son, Ding Tzi Chen and another local Wang Ji Zhen. However, Ding Tzi Chen had all the original teachings.

Both master Liu Yun Qiao and Zhang Xiang San are students of Ding Tzi Chen.

Zhang Xiang San also studied 7 stars with Tsou Dzou Ho.

Ding Tzi Chen was very good friend of Ba Ji Quan master Li Su Wen. Liu Yun Qiao was Li Su Wen's student in Ba Ji. Liu then studied Liu He with Ding Tzi Chen.

Master Liu taught presidential body guards and secret services in Taiwan. He had many students in the services.

I am only indirectly his students' student in Ba Ji and Liu He Tang Lang.

Wang Lang-> student unknown->Wei San->Lin Si Tzun->Ding Tzi Chen-> Liu Yun Qiao-> students-> SPJ.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
, I think you know what the answer to your question is.


Well...his location is listed as, "The beast under your bed." so I wasn't sure.

It's kind of cool to hear that though. It fits perfectly with my current training emphais. Well, I'm not that interested in PM but I definately feel that Baji blends really well with an awfull lot of throws, especially the kind that Master Wang seems like, ie. it's ok to use a little brute strength. lol. The crash and bash of Baji get's you thrown right into that kind of kissing closeness you need for most throws.

[count]

SPJ,
I wonder if you could help me identify the 2 guys on the right in this photo? You've already named 3 of them but I haven't been able to put a name on the others.

http://chikungintl.com/chikungintl.com/images/masterliugroup.jpg

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm pretty sure MS2 is presently living in the SF Bay Area, but yeah, the Master Wang he's talking about is John Wang of the ACSCA.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I'm pretty sure MS2 is presently living in the SF Bay Area, but yeah, the Master Wang he's talking about is John Wang of the ACSCA.

MS = Meat Shake
MS2 = Monkey Slap Two
MS != MS2

[Chang Style Novice]

My name is Austin, and I am a ****.

[Meat Shake]

Awesome. Thanks for the links and info thus far... No doubt about it, there is some brute strength needed for the style of shuai chiao we do... I like it though. :)

I dont really care to learn mantis, but Id really like some baji... The arts I really want to focus on for the next many years is Shuai Chiao, Baji, and BJJ.
A little muay thai in the mix wouldnt hurt either. ;)

[SPJ]

Here is another link.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/lionbks/lb_baji1.htm

Count;

That may be a class picture with other classmates.

Teacher Ding started a Huang Xien Wu Shu Guang (Yellow county kwoon) to propagate Liu He Mantis in 1923.

Ding is the leader. Tsou Dzou Ho, Gong Bao Tien and Li Su Wen are teachers.

Liu He Mantis was thus widely known.

Other students include Zhao Qian Yi, Dang Xian Lin, Yuan Gin Zi, Zhao Su Lin, Fu Jia Bin, Yu Chien Zuong, Yu Gin Zi, Chen Yun Tao, etc.

And master Liu Yun Qiao and Zhang Xiang San are among them.

Sorry. I have no personal info on the picture.

I am only a distant outdoor student (Men Wai Di Zi).

:)

[count]

http://chikungintl.com/chikungintl.com/images/masterliugroup.jpg

Thanks for the effort and info. That's a fairly young Liu Yun Qaio in black, third from the right with Ding standing next to him. I've been able to identify Zhang next and Zhao on the end but no one has been able to identify who the two on the right are specifically. Oh well, I guess they remain as unknown on our site. You wouldn't happen to know the where abouts of any photo's of Gong Bao tien or Li Shu Wen. To my knowledge, there are none of Li and only the three I already have of Gong.

[count]

Here's a better shot of Ding

http://chikungintl.com/images/Ding.jpg

[omarthefish]

Count,

You have the portrait of Li Shuwen, right?

[count]

Ya, I have a copy of the portrait of Li Shu Wen. I'd just like to find a photo some day.

[uncle]

Sup, cuz . What are the chances of getting a copy of Li's pic, from you, strictly for my own archives.If it's possible PM me. I'll send you my E-mail address.BTW, Are you guys going to Tony's tourney this year, personally Ican't make it, but my son is gonna do me proud , hopefully:cool: :) Mabey I can make Cal sometime this winter, co-ordinate something with Byron. Luck and best wishes to the Fam. Bob

[tigerwing]

some pics of the small form:

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231.gif

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231_1.gif

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231_2.gif

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231_3.gif

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231_4.gif

http://www.ws.com.cn/lb/usr/12/12_1231_5.gif

[tigerwing]

It's called Huo style Ba ji quan

[count]

Originally posted by uncle
Sup, cuz . What are the chances of getting a copy of Li's pic, from you, strictly for my own archives.If it's possible PM me. I'll send you my E-mail address.BTW, Are you guys going to Tony's tourney this year, personally Ican't make it, but my son is gonna do me proud , hopefully:cool: :) Mabey I can make Cal sometime this winter, co-ordinate something with Byron. Luck and best wishes to the Fam. Bob
Wish I could go to Ohio for this one. It sounds like a lot of people are coming this year. Hopefully, they'll do it in Vegas by next year.

I hope you guys have a long summer and a late fall, but when it gets to cold for you guys up there in Alaska, come on down. Drag the Bald Monk with you too. I'm sure we can show ya'll a great time.

Here is a pic of Li Shu Wen.

http://www.privacyplease.net/images/lishuwen.jpg

[tigerwing]

That is so far the only one availble on the internet, I recon... pity it's just a drawing...

[MoreMisfortune]

baji vid sparring

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18125&page=1&pp=15

[SPJ]

Good link.

Unable to see the vid clip.

:mad:

[red5angel]

punches and takedowns for the most part. I don't know anything about Baji so I can't make any comment on technicals, but atleast they are fighting.

[norther practitioner]

Drills and sparring.. including takedowns. some good.

[Suntzu]

:cool: @ the lil kids........................ but someone should tell them to keep their hands up................ and i like the 2-handed slap-thingy technique........

[ShaolinTiger00]

I wonder if I can give my honest opinion or if I'll imediately be flamed as a "kungfu hater" ?

what the hell....

Those guys are bad.. horrible striking, poor grappling, no sense of balance, posture, timing, counter punching (save for the last clip, which is what should have happened every time)

I'm glad they are sparring. They will learn & improve. (hopefully)

but they really need a better coach if they want to get past this mess. If you or your style is represented by windmill flailing, eye closed, head turned girl slapping, unrealistic self defense throws, inefficiant grappling etc.. then something should change.

go watch that shuai chiao clip again for how to counter and move effectively...

[IronFist]

Looked like a bunch of wild swinging and people not keeping their hands up.

Good for them for at least sparring, tho. That's more than a lot of kung fu schools do.

[Ray Pina]

Not a finished product, but pretty good training BY STUDENTS (I assume) trying to get there.

As for hands down. I often keep my lead hand down apon aproaching because at that distance you can't strike me, only kick me. So it's there to deal with that. We don't train at that school and don't know the theory to their whys. Though a back hand should be up in my opinion.

If the throw worked in this free play environment then it was realistic. When they get better they'll also pull it off against better people.

All in all it made me happy to see Chinese players with gloves and head gear on and testing things out.

Granted, more experienced amatuer and pro fighters will be striking crisper, better balance, etc. I didn't see anyone clame that they were these things. As martial arts students I think they're doing all right.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by IronFist
Good for them for at least sparring, tho. That's more than a lot of kung fu schools do. How many kung fu schools have you trained at? Regurgitating is bad for you.

[The Willow Sword]

WOW Kids,,,Lets just call something that weve seen and experienced time and time again something different and COOL like BAJI. wow all that was just really unique and DIFFERENT.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Its the same ole sh!t.



1st Amendment/PEACE/All my Best-TWS

[Ray Pina]

I don't really understand what people are expecting to see.

I go to karate schools that free fight and allow head shots and take downs and I see something resembling that.

I see kung fu guys training the same way and see something similiar to that.

When I convice a grabber that I won't play with him unless he allows head strikes (if he can grab my head, leg or arm and twist it then I can loosen some teath) ... and then we decide to see the stand up game .... it looks something like that too.

Can some of the members here please post footage of themselves or training partners free fighting, so we can compare?

.....
Why when my girlfriend watches football it all seems the same to her? Why can't she see that one offense actually lives and dies off the run, the play action pass, the bootleg. To her it's all just running and throwing and tackling.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
How many kung fu schools have you trained at? Regurgitating is bad for you.

One, years ago. It was a Shaolin 5 animals school. I had a free lesson. It went like this.

We do some 5 animal forms for a while.

After class I asked "do you guys spar here?"

The instructor said "no. We just do forms and attack drills (someone throws a slow, telegraphed punch and leaves it out there while you do your super secret deadly kung fu moves on them).

I said "ok, thanks for the lesson." and never went back.

So before you say "you can't judge every school based on the one you went to," I've heard of other ones that don't spar, either. I also went to a Hapkido school for a short time that never sparred. And my friend goes to a Wing Chun/CLF school that spars and has students who fight full contact, so I know of some that do, too.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
As for hands down. I often keep my lead hand down apon aproaching because at that distance you can't strike me, only kick me. So it's there to deal with that.

That's the first decent explanation I've heard for leaving your hand down. However, good people can close very fast, and are you really going to stop a (hard) kick with your arm/hand?

[Ray Pina]

Not stop.

One technique we have is to touch the knee with the hand (later hit it) and then as you absorb it give it the elbow.

I posted a review that a champion Tai Boxer wrote up after visiting my master about two months ago. He explained it felt like he kicked a pillow. This guy showed up right after a tournament with the medal around his neck (fine) but with his hands still taped (why would you not take them off? just for comfort).

Anyway, we said he kicked my master x times and only moved him once. Truth be told, he should have moved my master everytime. Except my master dropped something on his toe a few days before and his toe nail was completely missing. He was scared, didn't want to move his feet at all. But we insist on not trying to stop somebody. If I can hold your foot for one second, take some of the power off, then you're on one foot.

Kind of hard to explain. It's wedging. Pretty cool. I've never seen this technology before. That post is in here somewhere regarding NYC Internal Schools or something. The guy posted it originally on Bullshido.
...

In related news, after I gassed out in my first San Da fight, the Russian fighters were like "You got to keep your hand up man. You're lucky he didn't kick your head."

Yea, 6 minutes of fighting and I got lucky. He didn't touch my head with his feet at all, and only once (grazing) with his hands ... he clinched me to death and swepped me. Which exposed a weakness that I'm working on. But I'm pretty confident in my boxing.

[Brad]

I thought there were a few nice things done by a couple of the adults(2 decent looking take downs, and the double ear slap was kind of cool looking :D)... I think some of the teens were trying to imitate Bruce Lee a bit much ;) and the little kids were,well... kids :P Do you guys think it's good or bad for little kids to be fighting like that?

BTW, I didn't notice too much baji in there. A couple throws looked a bit "baji" to me, but the striking just seemed too wild. In the little baji I know, the more long arm "swinging" type hand techniques were used more for striking the back of the head/neck, or as part of getting inside for a throw/takedown or elbow strike, and you'd allways end up with one hand gaurding the face. I don't know how good a job I'm doing explaining...
It looked like a few were trying to use that baji vertical punch, but weren't getting their bodies into it. In baji sparring I'd also expect to see more attacking using elbows, shoulders and hips.

[Sim Koning]

those are just students guys, give um a break. The beginners at our school don't look much better, but the guys that have been sparring for a year or so keep their hands up, throw crisp punches etc.... It just takes time.

As far as what I can tell on the net, the traditional kung fu schools that have the best sparring programs are usually Choy Lay Fut schools. I think part of it is because Choy lay Fut can be more easily adapted to san shou when compared to something like wing chun or Tai Chi.

[feral]

Ironfist, did the 5 animals guy ever give a reason as to why his school didn't spar?

[Suntzu]

Can some of the members here please post footage of themselves or training partners free fighting, so we can compare? go to www.marknegron.com and get the King of Sa Da Superfights dvd :D ........

I think part of it is because Choy lay Fut can be more easily adapted to san shou when compared to something like wing chun or Tai Chi. tai chi helps ALOT with the throwing game IM limited E.........

[IronFist]

Originally posted by feral
Ironfist, did the 5 animals guy ever give a reason as to why his school didn't spar?

Nope. I didn't ask, either. The fact was that they didn't spar, and it probably didn't matter why. Asking probably would have just p.issed him off anyway so I decided not to.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Can some of the members here please post footage of themselves or training partners free fighting, so we can compare?


Rest assured, I train like a champion in every aspect of fighting.

A first place win at a large mid-atlantic judo tournament PA, MD, DC, VA, DE, NC (http://img10.exs.cx/img10/5568/TeamLloydIrvin.jpg)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Rest assured, I train like a champion in every aspect of fighting.

A first place win at a large mid-atlantic judo tournament PA, MD, DC, VA, DE, NC (http://img10.exs.cx/img10/5568/TeamLloydIrvin.jpg)
Are you the one in the middle?

;)

[ShaolinTiger00]

No, the Quasimodo looking guy on the end w/ the brown belt.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
No, the Quasimodo looking guy on the end w/ the brown belt.
Hah! That would have been my last choice! Funny how faces and posts can seem so dis-connected. Good work on the trophy - what's the brown belt for?

[ShaolinTiger00]

what's the brown belt for?

To remind me that I'll have to learn 2 kata if I ever want promoted to black belt.. :mad:

Thanks man. It will probably be my last judo or bjj tournament for a while (I'll sit out this competition year) to prepare for a planned MMA fight this spring and hopefully a return to sanshou again. ( sure how I feel about that.. if you go thru all the trouble of putting a guy on the ground it's getting kinda hard to justify why you should let him get back up..) but I want to do everything while I can and I love sanshou and want to help it grow. I'm getting too old for this ****..

I'm sure forum members Merryprankster, Sun Tzu & Khun Kao are all anxious to begin beating on me in preparation.. what are friends for?

[Serpent]

LOL. Well, good luck with all that. Sounds like you've got some good friends there. Make sure you let us know how all the various comps go.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Originally posted by Serpent
LOL. Well, good luck with all that. Sounds like you've got some good friends there. Make sure you let us know how all the various comps go.

You're only as good as the people around you.. Which is why I made the comment in my first post about these young guys need better coaching. otherwise these poor fundamental things that they are doing now, will always be with them! I'd rather create a shadowboxing, heavy bag hitting, focus mitt melting model of excellent stance, rhythm, & form than for him to spar poorly.

[rogue]

I just watched the video and it didn't look like much of anything in regards to style. What was with all the Ali shuffle footwork? There is a vid of Asia using Baji somewhere on the web, that looked good. Anybody see that one and know where it was hosted?

[Suntzu]

I'm sure forum members Merryprankster, Sun Tzu & Khun Kao are all anxious to begin beating on me in preparation.. what are friends for? ;) :D not a problem :D


Anybody see that one and know where it was hosted? wasn't it hosted on bullshido?.........

[dingyuan]

Yeah I agree with you totally, I study Baji Quan and these are don't really seem Baji to me or at lest the Baji Quan I learn.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
You're only as good as the people around you.. Which is why I made the comment in my first post about these young guys need better coaching. otherwise these poor fundamental things that they are doing now, will always be with them! I'd rather create a shadowboxing, heavy bag hitting, focus mitt melting model of excellent stance, rhythm, & form than for him to spar poorly.

Dangerous words there.

"Everyone" knows that the best way...nay...the ONLY way to become a good fighter is to spar full contact right from the get go.

[BaldMonk]

I've been training Bajiquan for a minute or so. I'm sorry and mean no disrespect to those cats in the video because we're from the same lineage, but I didn't see the body mechanics and principles that are inherently Baji. I've only been training Baji since 2000 so I'm no master. There are people on this board with far more experience than me and maybe they can see something that I don't. Keep in mind that I'm not naive enough to think that sparring should look like people are doing forms but there was no root, no power, no cross jings in anything that I saw. I'm not trying to start a flame war either but I'm kinda ashamed that clip was depicted as being Baji. And before you guys ask, no I don't have any clips of me and my boys doing better. If I filmed a sparring session it would look like Baji contaminated Mantis, but I think It would be more recognizable as Baji than the clip shown here. I probably put my foot in it but I gotta keep it real. That clip was terrible.

Peace
BaldMonk

[baji-fist]

Can't view the thread. Is the forum down on Bullshido?

[BaldMonk]

Wolfen,

From your reply I gather you're one of those folks that have been training baji longer than I have. How long have you been training and who's your teacher? Please instruct me in what I'm missing when I look at this clip. I mean no disrespect.

Peace
BMonk

[ShaolinTiger00]

the ONLY way to become a good fighter is to spar full contact right from the get go.

that's just crazy talk ;)

but you bring up a good point... in kungfu, hours upon hours are spent upon building the foundation of stance and form.

but look at these students, whom I've got to assume has to have probably showed some competency in these skills, yet they do not know how to apply them in live motion.

[dingyuan]

Me not long, I began training Baji Quan when I was still a teenager which was just 2 month ago.

[Becca]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
that's just crazy talk ;)

but you bring up a good point... in kungfu, hours upon hours are spent upon building the foundation of stance and form.

but look at these students, whom I've got to assume has to have probably showed some competency in these skills, yet they do not know how to apply them in live motion.
I bet you were one of those wonder kids who could read the instant they learned the alphabet, as well, yes? Most people need to practice to get good at most things. Some need lotts of practice. And others are predisposed to be good forms peeps and crappy fighters. Being as you have no background on any of those individuals...

[BaldMonk]

Wolfen,

Seems like there's a misunderstanding. You don't know me and I don't know you. From the onset I expressed that I didn't feel the clip displayed Baji. That's a bit different from saying that their kung fu is crap, or saying that their baji and their teacher's baji isn't good. I said that the example I saw didn't look like Baji. I'm sure that in the past and even now, there are things that I did that, if displayed for all to see wouldn't reflect positively on him. Does that mean an inference can be made that his kung fu is crap? I don't think so. When you made the comment on my post, keeping in mind that the comment was unsolicited, I assumed that you had some knowledge of Baji and I said so. Respectfully I asked you to shed some light for me because because of our apparent disagreement it became clear that you were seeing things in the clip that I didn't see, or that you were just making proclimations on the legitimacy of the "Baji" without an appropriate knowledge base. I assumed the former. I'm an optimist and saw a potential learning oppurtunity so I asked you to let me know what I was missing in the clip that made you think the sparring showed authentic Baji.

The reason for saying there was no disrespect was twofold. Firstly, I don't know you and I have no reason to dis. For all I know you could be a high level Baji practicioner who could even be related to me from a kung fu point of view. Secondly, the head of the school depicted in the clip and my Sifu are both disciples of GM Liu. I'm not trying to disrespect people in my kungfu family.

I find it interesting that you responded to my post by saying I should go do research on another site and go to Tapei and tell the people at the school their kung fu is crap which is far from what I believe, and avoided my question of how long you've practiced Baji and who your teacher is. You don't have to go there if you don't want to. I was kinda looking forward to your thoughts on what you saw on the clip since Baji is near and dear to me and I always look for ways to improve.

No hard feelings.

Peace
BaldMonk

[Ray Pina]

The thing is, I doubt they filmed this to be the official Baji clip. It's some training brothers training.

Also, what percentage of your total skill comes out under fire, under pressure. I would venture maybe 80%. And that might be a little much.

[SPJ]

Cool links;

Unable to view the video clips again.

:mad:

[SPJ]

The beauty threading the needle.

Gua Ta.

It is a way to push the opponent's back with one of your hands, and move one of your feet in front of the opponent back at the same time.

And the opponent falls to his front.

Lazy men stretching back.

I need to know the moves to know what it is for.

[SPJ]

W;

Good suggestion.

I saw the clips.

The first clip in the first post: there were some throws and some kids exchanging punches.

It is an ad to recruit a new class.

By the way;

There are many Wu Tan brothers since 1971.

So be nice to each other.

:D

[BaldMonk]

SPJ,

Message recieved.

It's all love:D

Have we met?

Peace
BMonk

[SPJ]

Cool.

:D :) :cool:

[SPJ]

Excellent post.

Cheers.

:cool:

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by SPJ
Lazy men stretching back.
[/B]

Lazy TIGER stretches his back.

btw,

Can you understand what that guy is saying? I sat my GF down with me last night and she can't make out any more thatn I can. That's guys "Chinese" is BURIED in his Taiwanese accent.

[omarthefish]

hah!

I can understand the Shaanxi dialect well enough. Henan is not bad actually, pretty similar. At least we had a good laugh togeth er straining to hear.

This is what it sounded like to us:

"And then comes over. . mnnmfaaf and you must completely gmshzazss. .with your left hand bnmasgas...understand?...so then one- two and heab f ma.....""

What was really buggin me is that I don't think of the Tawanese as having much of accent. More like a lizp. S's all being switched for 'z's.

[tigerharimau]

Hi Guys
Can anyone explain the difference or thier experiences in the different styles of Baji.,,
wu style baji, qiang(hard style) baji, huo baji , or Adam hsu( Liu Yun Chiao lineage)?
Also explain, which ones are more internal, etc
Thanks

[Shaolin Master]

All Li Shuwen descendants seem a little stiffer in there methods, Huo seem a little to lapse and Wu are a little more balance in approach
:-)

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[SPJ]

Li style is soft, too. It is because they release Jing or Fa Jing at each end move. That is why there are stops and seems to be rigid. Each move still starts with softness or Chan. This is most apparent in Xiao Ba Ji. Kao Jing is very much stressed by Master Liu Yun Qiao.

Here is a link provided by Count.

Ba Ji 32 Shi (http://mleng.com/baji_association/library/baji32.WMV)

Wu style practices smoothly and slowly first (storing Jing or Xu Jing) and then fast suddenly (Fa Jing).

I practice both.

Li style is from the Cang Zhou area.

Wu style is from the Meng Cun area.

Wu Tan Di Zi will say more.

:D

[MonkeySlap Too]

Isn't there a Zhang style as well?

[Shaolin Master]

SPJ who is your Wu Style teacher? which branch? old or new ?

Regards
Wu Chan Long

[RAF]

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html

[No direct link]

Baji flavor of Liu Yun Qiaos's students, around 1978

Go to the video gallary

go to bottom of the page and click on:

Old Footage of WuTang Martial Arts

Opeinging, Liu's calligrpahy

.37 Da Fan She (Big Spinning Wheel) 8 Step Praying Mantis

.49 Six Harmony Mantis

1.05 Mizong II (Lost Track)

1.50 Kun Wu Two Man sword fight

2:27 Lan Jie

2.45 Lan Jie

3:10 Baji Lian Huan (Linking form)

3.50 Xiao Baji Jia

4.40 Da Baji Jia

5:55 Liu Da Kai (6 Big Opening) #1, #3, and #5


Done in the 1970s in Taipei Taiwan for a Television program.

Its a pretty good picture of the flavor of Wu Tan practitioners at that time.

You'll need a QuickTime player to play the video (mp 4). I don't manage the web so I don't think I can be of much help here.

[Golden Arms]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ir0MWNtMv4

Fudged up in my other post by not putting the link in. This is footage I havent seen on here before previously, with some well executed techniques.

[B-Rad]

I posted it before, but was mostly ignored ;) Bad timing I guess! Cool footage though :)

[Fei Li]

Does not look like Baji to me.
Which Baji Practitioner would possibly start an attack with a kick?

If at all it's wushu baji.

[B-Rad]

I've yet to meet a baji guy that trained only in baji. A lot of baji quan guys aslo study pigua, and even other chang quan styles. What's your experience with baji quan?

[B-Rad]

BTW, "wushu" baji quan doesn't have side kicks either.

[Pork Chop]

These are pretty interesting too, some nice throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krs6KWBZ_yg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ZTh0RDLu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi-7XxvlU3c

Would like to see it with weight classes and head contact.

[Knifefighter]

These are pretty interesting too, some nice throws:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Krs6KWBZ_yg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ZTh0RDLu8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi-7XxvlU3c

Would like to see it with weight classes and head contact.

You realize those are works, right?

[Pork Chop]

I don't care, there were still a few nice throws in there.

[Shaolinstudent]

Has anyone heard of or purchased these books by Peter Jaw on Baji?

1. Ba Xi Jie Xi: A Talk On Rake Fist
2. Baji 24 Hand Methods And Classics

[SPJ]

Thank you for your interests.

1. more about key tactics and strategy and apps for classical postures.

since there are many forms vcd out there. but not a lot or almost none for apps. I was asked in downtown LA in 2000. what is ba zi or ba ji? so I compiled some notes. the contents of the book were from the talks in 2000.

2. more about theories and principles.

I was asked about are there any classics? what are 24 and 64 hand methods as described by wu xio feng.

24 changing hands or flipping hands or fan shou.

the book described briefly the definition of each hand method and some apps examples are mentioned.

for a beginner, the first book would give you an overview of the system.

for an intermediate level, the second book would further your understanding and analysis of the open hand methods. and of course the key tactics and strategy along with the methods.

have fun in learning and practicing with your teacher.

:)

[SPJ]

other books on baji

1. Wang Si Quan
http://book.danawa.com.cn/book/227641.html

2. Baji Quan competition routines
http://www.jiushu.cn/shop/book.php?bookid=302463

3. Xio Chen Wu Ji
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bleachers/2630/book_ch02

4. other books
http://www.plumpub.com/sales/chinese/chinbks_trad18BJPG.htm#209

if you read Chinese, you have to go to local bookstores in chinatown and look for them.

for people that are interested.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV57NW-JkPE&feature=related

all the apps for the xiao jia and more are discussed in the first book.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVT5DR1xMYI

the first book also covered some apps from dan da or one man drill of two man set or dui da.

:)

[SPJ]

For people that are interested;

I have a new book coming out.

After so many requests about names and postures of small frame or xiao jia.

There are many variations out there.

I picked the most common ones and I compiled 24 postures.

The names used are originally from recorded texts from the beginning of the 20th century.

--

It will come out in a few months.

:)

[SPJ]

the name of the new book:

Ba Ji Small Frame Routine.

八极小架

:)

[SPJ]

the name of the new book:

Ba Ji Small Frame Routine.

八极小架

:)

for people that are interested.

http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=65410

it will be available in amazon lookinside and google book search inside in a few weeks.

:)

[Hardwork108]

Very interesting Baji Quan applications. There is a lot of softness and flow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGhD0P3Bwwo

[sanjuro_ronin]

:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA9a977HzFg

[sanjuro_ronin]

And this one by Sifu Hsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc

[taai gihk yahn]

And this one by Sifu Hsu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc

the man has some serious sartorial sensibility!

[sanjuro_ronin]

the man has some serious sartorial sensibility!

Hold on, let me see if I have any change for those big words...
:p

[kfson]

the man has some serious sartorial sensibility!

I need to buy stock in "S's" myself, thanks.

I don't like the way the punch and the front foot arrive at the same time.

[Hardwork108]

the man has some serious sartorial sensibility!

Hey, what does "sartorial sensibility" mean?

[taai gihk yahn]

Hey, what does "sartorial sensibility" mean?

He dresses really well!

And is a nice guy and really knows his stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

He dresses really well!

And is a nice guy and really knows his stuff.

Your penache for understatement is understated.

[Hardwork108]

He dresses really well!

And is a nice guy and really knows his stuff.


Thank you.

I really have got to take my English to the next level.

[taai gihk yahn]

Your penache for understatement is understated.

Scott would just say I was spectacubating again...:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Scott would just say I was spectacubating again...:eek:

Scott has the boorish manners of a Yale man !

[Xiao3 Meng4]

He dresses really well!

lol!

What, no muscle lesson? :)

[David Jamieson]

1st video in thread = crap.

no one punches like that. ever. except for kungfu students making videos with slo-mo applications. :p

arms don't hang in the air on a thrown punch, ever.

nobody leaves their limb out to be taken and trapping is fantasy for the most part when you are not clinched already.

If you can do it, you got lucky.

If you can do it at least fairly consistently in response to a striking attack that is not choreographed and isn't using a compliant and 20lbs lighter than you opponent, well I would very much like to see that! :p

the form stuff is fine. it's just forms. doesn't really show any applications though.

[taai gihk yahn]

lol!

What, no muscle lesson? :)

LOL! careful, you might get one...:D

[kfson]

Is Baji considered a Shaolin style or belonging to the Internal group- Taiji, Bagua, XingYi, etc. and why?

[taai gihk yahn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bāj%C3%ADquán

[kfson]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bāj%C3%ADquán

That source is why I am asking.
Here is the sentence:
"The term baji comes from the Daoist classic, the Yijing (I-Ching), and signifies an "extension of all directions". In this case, it means "including everything" or "the universe.""
But Baji seems to be grouped with Shaolin more often... only a few sources show an "Internal" grouping.

[David Jamieson]

That source is why I am asking.
Here is the sentence:
"The term baji comes from the Daoist classic, the Yijing (I-Ching), and signifies an "extension of all directions". In this case, it means "including everything" or "the universe.""
But Baji seems to be grouped with Shaolin more often... only a few sources show an "Internal" grouping.

The I Ching isn't Taoist in particular.

The idea of "internal" was made up by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's and has since spiraled into a pile of crap nonsense so huge it gets addressed daily. Meanwhile, no one can accurately tell you what internal or external means because they don't know, will make up some reasons that seems logical or merely reiterate what they were told.

how can your innards function independently of you outers? They can't. You are a unit. A Martial system is a method. The whole body is employed in any martial method to achieve efficacy in martial ability.

nowadays, internal is for health and external is for fighting. which of course is a crock of crap, if the art can't be used for fighting, then it's not a martial art is it. :)

[kfson]

The I Ching isn't Taoist in particular.

Does it have source in "Chinese native or Shaman religion"? I don't recall it being associated with Buddhism or Zen before it was associated with Daoism.

[David Jamieson]

Does it have source in "Chinese native or Shaman religion"? I don't recall it being associated with Buddhism or Zen before it was associated with Daoism.

It is a stand alone text that is quite ancient and isn't connected to a religious movement such as taoism or buddhism or mohism or any indigenous religion of China. It is more based in soothsaying, seeing and prophecy sort of stuff.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The I Ching isn't Taoist in particular.

The idea of "internal" was made up by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's and has since spiraled into a pile of crap nonsense so huge it gets addressed daily. Meanwhile, no one can accurately tell you what internal or external means because they don't know, will make up some reasons that seems logical or merely reiterate what they were told.

how can your innards function independently of you outers? They can't. You are a unit. A Martial system is a method. The whole body is employed in any martial method to achieve efficacy in martial ability.

nowadays, internal is for health and external is for fighting. which of course is a crock of crap, if the art can't be used for fighting, then it's not a martial art is it. :)

Quite correct, there are many definitions of internal and external and most of them pointless from a MA perspective.
Adam Hsu wrote an excellent article on that.

[kfson]

The I Ching isn't Taoist in particular.

The idea of "internal" was made up by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's and has since spiraled into a pile of crap nonsense so huge it gets addressed daily. Meanwhile, no one can accurately tell you what internal or external means because they don't know, will make up some reasons that seems logical or merely reiterate what they were told.

how can your innards function independently of you outers? They can't. You are a unit. A Martial system is a method. The whole body is employed in any martial method to achieve efficacy in martial ability.

nowadays, internal is for health and external is for fighting. which of course is a crock of crap, if the art can't be used for fighting, then it's not a martial art is it. :)

Not sure why the rant, but ok. I guess I should have separated them by Shaolin/Wudang or Shaolin/Taiji, Bagua, Xing Yi, or whatever. Thank you.

[David Jamieson]

Not sure why the rant, but ok. I guess I should have separated them by Shaolin/Wudang or Shaolin/Taiji, Bagua, Xing Yi, or whatever. Thank you.

did i rant? where? lol :p

anyway...

[kfson]

did i rant? where? lol :p

anyway...

It keeps the subscribers.

[Scott R. Brown]

The idea of "internal" was made up by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's

It might be more accurate to say "internal" was popularized in the modern world, "by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's"

The Nei-yeh ("inward training") is the oldest known Taoist text predating even "The Tao Te Ching" by at least a couple of hundred years! It's focus is entirely upon inner, mental, development. It is unrelated to the martial arts, but it clearly refers to the training of the mind as "inner"!

[David Jamieson]

It might be more accurate to say "internal" was popularized in the modern world, "by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's"

The Nei-yeh ("inward training") is the oldest known Taoist text predating even "The Tao Te Ching" by at least a couple of hundred years! It's focus is entirely upon inner, mental, development. It is unrelated to the martial arts, but it clearly refers to the training of the mind as "inner"!

Are you referring to the Nei Ching or a completely other text?

Yes, your syntax is more correct than mine. :p "Internal" as an aspect has been recognized and studied for as long as there has been written language. probably longer.

the idea of internal martial arts in my opinion likely comes from martial practice in religious monastic settings. Where nei gong or internal work (meditation, qi gong, *prana yama*, et al) related to religious work was having fallout in the martial arts activities of those monks who practiced that as a way of their living and being.

the overlap would have occurred and been recognized long before it became ...well, convoluted into the mess of thinking that it is these days. Exercises such as various iron body skills and breathing skills as well as control of blood flow practiced and used in context with martial arts had been around for hundreds of years before the idea of "internal martial arts" and "external martial arts" even came about. So, here we are now where for some reasons we think that there is some thing inherently different about martial arts.

In fact, there is effective training for fighting, there is effective training for whole body maintenance, there is effective training for fitness, there is effective nutritional guidance, and so on in many martial arts that are not considered internal and these things are also lacking in many practitioners that do consider themselves internal and as well of course, it is included in many so called external regimens.

In essence, the water was muddied. But nowadays it is clearing and you can see all the different color stones at the bottom of the river. It's clear which are of value and which shall be eroded away with time and eventuality. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

It is a completely different text. It was buried within the Kuan-tzu and, for some reason, ignored for a couple of thousand years. It dates to at least the middle of the 4th century B.C. in its written form and probably comes from an even earlier oral tradition going back 500 or more years which brings it into a contemporaneous origin with Buddhism.

Harold Roth does a very thorough exegesis of the text and his translation of the text can be found on the net. Just put "nei-yeh" into Google. If you are interested and cannot find it, let me know and I'll be happy to e-mail a copy to you.

"Original Tao", by Harold Roth you can get off of Amazon!:)

[RAF]

Really Interested in the Yi Jing? Its history is complex and there is no pat answer:

Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing (I Ching, or Classic of Changes) and Its Evolution in China (Richard Lectures) (Hardcover)

Dr. Richard J. Smith - George and Nancy Rupp Professor of Humanities and Professor of History at Rice University. He is author, coauthor, or coeditors of a dozen scholarly books, including China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 and Cosmology, Ontology, and Human Efficacy: Essays in Chinese Thought.

Review
"A major contribution to the fields of Chinese intellectual history and religion. To my knowledge it is the first work in a Western language that attempts an overall picture of the place of the Yijing in Chinese history and culture." -- Joseph A. Adler, Kenyon College, author of Chinese Religious Traditions

"A very substantial contribution to the field of Chinese studies. The scholarship is prodigious. There are similar works in Chinese, but in the West this book stands very much alone." -- Edward Shaughnessy, University of Chicago, author of Rewriting Early Chinese Texts and translator of I Ching: The Classic of Changes

"Picking up from where he left off with his important volume entitled Fortune-tellers and Philosophers: Divination in Traditional Chinese Society (1991), Richard Smith continues with his stout defense of traditional cosmology in late imperial China in this new volume demonstrating the scope of the Yijing in enabling Chinese at all levels of society to voice their opinions through its complexities and mysteries. Especially important is Smith's documentation of the widespread use of the Changes in Qing (1644-1911) times for divination. Equally significant is Smith's presentation of its ongoing place as one of the Classics during an era when "evidential studies" and its philological "toolkit" had poked historical holes in the classical canon." -- Benjamin A. Elman, Princeton University

Review

"A major contribution to the fields of Chinese intellectual history and religion. To my knowledge it is the first work in a Western language that attempts an overall picture of the place of the Yijing in Chinese history and culture." -- Joseph A. AdlerKenyon College, author of Chinese Religious Traditions


http://www.amazon.com/Fathoming-Cosmos-Ordering-World-Evolution/dp/0813927056/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1273020039&sr=1-1

[Hardwork108]

Is Baji considered a Shaolin style or belonging to the Internal group- Taiji, Bagua, XingYi, etc. and why?

Kfson,

I have always had a strange fascination with this style. I never got to practice, however and unfortunately I don't think that I will be exposed to it in the forseeable future.

You will find a lot of useful information in the following link:

http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=baji#origin

HW108

[Hardwork108]

Also, it might be a good idea to take note of the history of Piquazhang, a style that was said to be practiced as complimentary method to Bajiquan, so as to counteract its "hardness".

I know enough to say that like most, if not all kung fu styles, Bajiquan has a fundamental Internal (which DO exist, despite some of the more uniformed comments in this thread) side to it. However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".

HW108

[omarthefish]

Is Baji considered a Shaolin style or belonging to the Internal group- Taiji, Bagua, XingYi, etc. and why?

Neither.

It has no connection to Shaolin but is also not an internal style. It's external. It's only relationship to Taji, Bagua and Xingyi is that it is classified as "Wudang". Wudang does not mean "internal". I'll leave that messy terminology to be argued out by everyone else.


However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".

lol

Pigua is no more internal than Baji. Sure, it's a little softer but that just means that it's a little softer. Pigua is not even considered Wudang. It's a Hui art (moslem) It's mainly practiced together with Baji because Baji and Pigua developed, geographically, in the same little village and surrounding area. Any explanations about soft+hard and balance and all that rot are after the fact explanations. The real reason they are practiced together is because in a place like Canzhou, it's near impossible to isolate the practitioners from each other.

[Eddie]

Omar,
So whats the difference between the Pigua in Da Shen Pigua and other pigua?

I have a scroll that was given to me by Sifu Chow Keun, and it reads Shaolin pigua men. He has the same scroll in this pic, maybe you can see it in the back.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/vPfYApv7gzU/0.jpg

Just acurious, not debating with anyone

[Frost]

Also, it might be a good idea to take note of the history of Piquazhang, a style that was said to be practiced as complimentary method to Bajiquan, so as to counteract its "hardness".

I know enough to say that like most, if not all kung fu styles, Bajiquan has a fundamental Internal (which DO exist, despite some of the more uniformed comments in this thread) side to it. However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".

HW108

lol you can't help yourself can you, even when you admit you have not trained in the style or studied it in anyway you still have to call others comments uninformed:rolleyes:

nice to see you got owned on this thread by someone who actually studies the art :D

[SPJ]

1. pi gua is a large system that has many empty hand forms and weapons

2. ba ji has its own system

and yes, as pointed out, practitioners of both systems exchanged their learnings in cang zhou area.

3. ba ji also incorporated some stuff from shaolin such as jing gang ba shi. some yi jing jing and also some daoist breathing exercises--

4. origins of ba ji are still under active research

5. da sheng pi gua is a long arm monkey style. great saint is the monkey king sun wu kong.

---

[Shaolin]

Neither.

It has no connection to Shaolin but is also not an internal style. It's external. It's only relationship to Taji, Bagua and Xingyi is that it is classified as "Wudang". Wudang does not mean "internal". I'll leave that messy terminology to be argued out by everyone else.

To add to your statement: Shaolin does teach Baji sets because it contains wonderful concepts that should be learnt.

[Hardwork108]

lol

Pigua is no more internal than Baji.

I disagree with you and your "lol". Pigua has elements that are not present in Baji and vice versa. Also, Pigua is seen as the softer style, hence a "balance" to Baji, a compliment (Yin/Yang). Why, combine two arts that do not compliment each other?



Sure, it's a little softer but that just means that it's a little softer.
A "little softer" would mean that the style will balance a style that is a "little harder"!

Just like Pigua's emphasis on ciruclar and open hand techniques can balance Baji's emphasis on straight line/ closed fist techniques.



Pigua is not even considered Wudang. It's a Hui art (moslem) It's mainly practiced together with Baji because Baji and Pigua developed, geographically, in the same little village and surrounding area.

I am just glad that ballet dancing did not develop in the same area. lol



Any explanations about soft+hard and balance and all that rot are after the fact explanations. The real reason they are practiced together is because in a place like Canzhou, it's near impossible to isolate the practitioners from each other.

Again, it seems many would disagree with you. the general opinion that I have come across is that the two styles compliment each in a way that fits corresponding Chinese phylosophy - hard/soft; Yin/Yang, etc.

http://www.oslowutan.com/index.php?page=Piquazhang&lang=en

Having said all the above, I will mention that if you are happy in your belief then that is fine too, as I am presenting my opinion based on what I know about kung fu and of others who actually practice these arts.

[Hardwork108]

lol you can't help yourself can you, even when you admit you have not trained in the style or studied it in anyway you still have to call others comments uninformed:rolleyes:

My reference to the uninformed comments of others was regarding the existance of the Internals and NOT in regards Baji or Pigua.


nice to see you got owned on this thread by someone who actually studies the art :D

Don't get carried away in your delusional world of mixed martial arts. So far, and as far as I can see, the only people who have been owned in these forums were MMA-ists who come in and make clueless remarks on traditional kung fu practice, when they themselves have only trained MCdojo kungfu together with their usual bjj and tae kwon do...LOL

By the way, implyiing that Olympic weight training qualifications will help your Internal kung fu was not too smart a thing to do either, Mr Frost.

However, and as always, thanks for the laughs.:D

HW108

PS, (1): I hope that you do eventually find a genuine kung fu school to train in.

PS. (2): Try and contribute to the subject matter of this thread like the rest of us have done (without referring to BJJ, Tae Kwon Do and Olympic Weight training, of course...:rolleyes:)

[kfson]

i am just glad that ballet dancing did not develop in the same area. Lol






Ha! ...................

[omarthefish]

I would respectively disagree with Omar regarding classifying bajiquan as "external". ...

For anyone paying attention, RAF and I have been respectfully disagreeing on this subject for year. It's a friendly disagreement and he and I even met in Beijing one time for lunch. Mainly, IMO, it comes down to subtle differences in how we perceive the idea "internal" but more than that, IMHO, I think that Liu Yunqiao (RAF's branch) decided to blur the line and teach Baji as in Internal art whereas Zhang Xiangqu (my branch and Zhang was close friends with Liu btw) did not.

Where RAF takes the Adam Hsu line that "there is no internal and external, only high level and low level ability" I take a different approach. I recognize clear differences between internal and external but do not feel that an external approach is inferior. It's only inferior in theory. The theoretical limit of skill is higher with an internal approach so if you in in an external art and you fear that you may be approaching the theoretical limit of human ability in your art...then maybe your external approach is limiting. For the rest of us non-proffesional elites, the debate is not terribly relevant.

Omar,
So whats the difference between the Pigua in Da Shen Pigua and other pigua?

I have a scroll that was given to me by Sifu Chow Keun, and it reads Shaolin pigua men. He has the same scroll in this pic, maybe you can see it in the back.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/vPfYApv7gzU/0.jpg

Just acurious, not debating with anyone
I'm in the very unusual position of having been exposed to a little of both. I only trained the "Da Sheng" version but the other one is all over the place in Xi'an. IMO, Da Sheng Pigua is more "Shaolin" and the other one is more like "Wudang" in terms of Shenfa. The horse stances are different and Da sheng power is closer to Choi Li Fut...IMHO...where northern Pigua as its name (Tong Bei Pigua) suggests spreads power out more through the back. You don't see the big diagonal leaning wit curves from foot, through the back, out to the other hand in Da Sheng Pigua.

[Eddie]

cool. thanks omar.

where did you train dashen pigua?

[omarthefish]

I disagree with you and your "lol". Pigua has elements that are not present in Baji and vice versa.
I don't understand what your point it here? What does any of that have to do with "internal/external"?

Also, Pigua is seen as the softer style, hence a "balance" to Baji, a compliment (Yin/Yang). Why, combine two arts that do not compliment each other?
I never said they do not compliment each other. I also have no problem with people combining them. My argument is that the "balance" thing is an ex-post facto explanation. The reason for the combination is that every martial artist in Cangzhou has learned at least a little of both. Youd have to make a concious decision to not combine them.



Again, it seems many would disagree with you. the general opinion that I have come across is that the two styles compliment each in a way that fits corresponding Chinese phylosophy - hard/soft; Yin/Yang, etc.

http://www.oslowutan.com/index.php?page=Piquazhang&lang=en
As I just mentioned, I have been having this disagreement with RAF for years now. Our branch does not combine them. Zhang Xiangwu did not teach Pigua. His "brother" Lu Yunqiao, did. So this disagreement over the importance of Pigua goes back several generations now.


Having said all the above, I will mention that if you are happy in your belief then that is fine too, as I am presenting my opinion based on what I know about kung fu and of others who actually practice these arts.
And I am presenting my opinion based on my experience training Bajiquan here in Xi'an since about 2002.

[omarthefish]

cool. thanks omar.

where did you train dashen pigua?
I learned 2 open hand sets and a sword set from YC Wong back in the 90's. Pretty much forgot all of them.

Here's some of what I learned being performed by one of my Sihing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuGLxjTbqA

[Eddie]

thats good. I know YC Wong learned few DSPG sets.

thanks for the info

[Hardwork108]

I don't understand what your point it here? What does any of that have to do with "internal/external"?
All I was conveying was that from my understanding of these two arts, the internal emphasis of Pigua seems to compliment the external emphasis of Baji.


I never said they do not compliment each other. I also have no problem with people combining them. My argument is that the "balance" thing is an ex-post facto explanation. The reason for the combination is that every martial artist in Cangzhou has learned at least a little of both. Youd have to make a concious decision to not combine them.
I am hypothesizing that perhaps they would not have trained both if these arts did not compliment each other, specially within a Chinese philosophical context.


As I just mentioned, I have been having this disagreement with RAF for years now. Our branch does not combine them. Zhang Xiangwu did not teach Pigua. His "brother" Lu Yunqiao, did. So this disagreement over the importance of Pigua goes back several generations now.
I would hazard a guess that both arts are potent on their own as well, and do not necessarily need each other, but it seems that there is a school of thought that thinks that their combination will give one that extra edge, to say the least.


And I am presenting my opinion based on my experience training Bajiquan here in Xi'an since about 2002.

As I mentioned before, I have no experience of Bajiquan nor of Piguazhang. My experience is limited to Mainland Chinese Wing Chun Kuen and Chow Gar Southern Mantis.

However, I do like to research and investigate other styles that interest me and it seems that others who do have experience in the arts we are discussing, would disagree with you and say that the softer and more Internal Pigua, will compliment the harder, more external, Bajiquan. Some have even gone further and said that the combination of the two is a formidable mix.

What is the truth? Who knows, perhaps one would have to ultimately train the two under masters who have combined mastery of the these styles, to know for sure.

[omarthefish]

All I was conveying was that from my understanding of these two arts, the internal emphasis of Pigua seems to compliment the external emphasis of Baji.
Yeah I got that but it's a false dichotomy. They can certainly compliment each other, sure. There's just no internal/external thing going on there. Pigua and Baji fall on exactly the same place of the internal/external scale. Even if I were to, for the sake of argument, accept the Wutan interpretation of Baji as internal....Pigua is not "more" internal. That's just silly. There is exactly zero percent more internal emphasis in Pigua compared to Baji. From my perspective, Baji is actually far closer to being an internal art than Pigua. The soft whipping and waist/spine power of Pigua are all external characteristics. Baji's trademark dantien explosion is fare more similar to Taiji power generation than anything Pigua has to offer.

I think Pigua makes a nice compliment because the training methods of Baji leave a person getting kind of tight. It's hard sometimes to really open up and have good expansiveness in the movements. Pigua can help with that. So can Baji Sabre work.


I am hypothesizing that perhaps they would not have trained both if these arts did not compliment each other, specially within a Chinese philosophical context.
Certainly. But that just means their complimentary nature was a pre-requisite, not a cause.

I would hazard a guess that both arts are potent on their own as well, and do not necessarily need each other, but it seems that there is a school of thought that thinks that their combination will give one that extra edge, to say the least.
The main school of thought comes from the fact that many Baji practitioners started in Pigua or even learned it as a family art. In our branch in Xi'an, rather than looking to another external art like Pigua for "balance", we train Taiji. The Zhang Xiangwu flavor of Baji is really a Yang Taiji/Bajiquan comibination. Many people feel that Liu's Baji was rather Bagua flavored which is quite plausible.

[SPJ]

1. there are both internal and external aspects in both pi gua and ba ji. you need both to work the best.

we would refer internal vs external as training methods as pointed out in early posts.

your standing in stillness or breathing exercises are internal training methods

-----

2. I was asked that what would be the differences in the stepping methods between pi gua and ba ji

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUWfA_d621Y&feature=related

a. the first stepping in the clip is called side step or bian bu. you also circle one arm to chan first and then pi with the other arm. (pi gua stepping)

b. the last stepping is called grinding stomp or nian zhen

you turn your front soles first and then land your heels. (ba ji stepping)

pay attention to the dirts got kicked up due to grinding and stomping.

----

[Frost]

My reference to the uninformed comments of others was regarding the existance of the Internals and NOT in regards Baji or Pigua.



Don't get carried away in your delusional world of mixed martial arts. So far, and as far as I can see, the only people who have been owned in these forums were MMA-ists who come in and make clueless remarks on traditional kung fu practice, when they themselves have only trained MCdojo kungfu together with their usual bjj and tae kwon do...LOL

By the way, implyiing that Olympic weight training qualifications will help your Internal kung fu was not too smart a thing to do either, Mr Frost.

However, and as always, thanks for the laughs.:D

HW108

PS, (1): I hope that you do eventually find a genuine kung fu school to train in.

PS. (2): Try and contribute to the subject matter of this thread like the rest of us have done (without referring to BJJ, Tae Kwon Do and Olympic Weight training, of course...:rolleyes:)

its ok my kung fu can be traced directly to respected masters in the hakka community, who didn't have to move to the jungle to get away from me :)
and my MMA/BJJ to coaches with fighters in the UFC....

Contribute like you you mean, LMAO how about trying something novel and admitting you know jack sh*t about something other than what you have read in a book and shutting up and listening to the guys on this thread who have actually trained in the arts?

[SPJ]

yes. there is still a popular belief that GM Liu incorporated bagua into baji in Taiwan.

such as rotation of the forearm/whole arm, and rotation of the waist, breathing exercise--

but as you explained better, maybe the refinement and fluidness in the movement made people speculate about bagua influence--

:cool:

[SPJ]

as far as lines of ba ji

each is influenced by other styles they also practice

1. Ma family, influenced by fan zi. the moves/stances are bigger and wider.

2. wu family, pigua/baji added together, sometimes there are more pigua than baji in their routines.

3. han family, more long fist like and small hand movements

4. GM Liu line, influenced by ba gua (?)

5. Zhang-> ->Omar, influenced by tai chi (?)

----

but the basic structure/frames are the same.

maybe the flavors or emphases are a bit "different"

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

For anyone paying attention, RAF and I have been respectfully disagreeing on this subject for year. It's a friendly disagreement and he and I even met in Beijing one time for lunch. Mainly, IMO, it comes down to subtle differences in how we perceive the idea "internal" but more than that, IMHO, I think that Liu Yunqiao (RAF's branch) decided to blur the line and teach Baji as in Internal art whereas Zhang Xiangqu (my branch and Zhang was close friends with Liu btw) did not.

Where RAF takes the Adam Hsu line that "there is no internal and external, only high level and low level ability" I take a different approach. I recognize clear differences between internal and external but do not feel that an external approach is inferior. It's only inferior in theory. The theoretical limit of skill is higher with an internal approach so if you in in an external art and you fear that you may be approaching the theoretical limit of human ability in your art...then maybe your external approach is limiting. For the rest of us non-proffesional elites, the debate is not terribly relevant.

I'm in the very unusual position of having been exposed to a little of both. I only trained the "Da Sheng" version but the other one is all over the place in Xi'an. IMO, Da Sheng Pigua is more "Shaolin" and the other one is more like "Wudang" in terms of Shenfa. The horse stances are different and Da sheng power is closer to Choi Li Fut...IMHO...where northern Pigua as its name (Tong Bei Pigua) suggests spreads power out more through the back. You don't see the big diagonal leaning wit curves from foot, through the back, out to the other hand in Da Sheng Pigua.

Well said Bro, very well said.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WkYzW67NWY

this is the baji old frame existed in the beginning of the 20 century.

a century has passed.

1. wu xiu feng incorporated pi gua and compiled 12 roads of small frame

2. huo style has early version of Li shu wen practices, including jing gang ba shi, yin shou quan (from shaolin inner corridor fist)--

3. GM Liu has late or refined version of Li shu wen practices--

4. Han hua chen passed his baji in the Chinese military

5. Ma Yin tu/Ma feng tu->nanjing guo shu guan, ma family moved to northwest along with the army--

-----

ba ji is propagating in Japan and EU in the beginning of the 21st century

---

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had a chance to watch some of the baji guys here in Toronto, good stuff.

[Hardwork108]

its ok my kung fu can be traced directly to respected masters in the hakka community,

The world (including this forum) is full of kung fu-clueless people who trained under "respected" masters. LOL

All of the Mcdojo "masters" are "respected" as well, or didn't you know?

Also, unfortunately for people such as yourself, even the real masters (in the UK, you can count them on one hand) don't teach everything to everyone.

By the way, did your "respected masters" recommend the use of Olympic weight training for your internal kung fu practice? :rolleyes:


who didn't have to move to the jungle to get away from me :)
Why should they have gotten away from you, they were making plenty of money from you, to start with. LOL

By the way, neither of my sifus moved away from me. I see that you have been learning your lessons from the other members of this forum's MMA knucklehead community, where you just keep repeating the same lies over and over, to discredit anyone who shows your kung fu cluelessness.


and my MMA/BJJ to coaches with fighters in the UFC....
And that is where you shoot yourself in the foot (yet, again!).

IF your masters were even half decent, then you would not feel the need to flaunt your MMA/BJJ coaches in a KUNG FU FORUM, within a KUNG FU Discussion!

Actually, if you had real TCMA masters, then you would generally not feel the need to practice MMA, to fill some perceived gaps, nor for that matter, .Olympic weight lifting (for internal strength????...LOL).


Contribute like you you mean, LMAO how about trying something novel and admitting you know jack sh*t about something other than what you have read in a book and shutting up and listening to the guys on this thread who have actually trained in the arts?
I believe that I was having a kung fu discussion in a kung fu thread. My opinions are based on my Mainland Chinese Wing Chun Kuen and my Chow Gar Southern Praying Mantis, experience, together with my personal research of kung fu styles in general.

The conversation in which I was involved was quiet civil and both sides made valid points based on their KUNG FU experience.

I still do not see the purpose of your baggage-filled "contributions" in this thread, as nobody has so far discussed Olympic weight lifting methodologies; the "grand" art of BJJ, MMA, nor Tae Kwon Do, or anything like that.

So again, if you have nothing to contribute then stop stirring up problems. Read the thread and perhaps you might acquire some knowledge about the interesting and potent styles of kung fu that are being discussed.

Thanks in advance.:)

HW108

[doug maverick]

ok i doubt there is an open door school here. i know there is one who lives here but he doesnt teach...a while ago i got to see him demonstrate and learn a form, but that was just out of respect of my then sifu, guy doesnt teach or at least wouldnt teach me,lol. so im looking for some open door baiji chuan in nyc...i love xing yi chuan but want to do a external art to compliment it and baji is not full hard. and it compliments xing yi.

[taai gihk yahn]

yeh, u'd think that in NY there'd b at least one person teaching baji...

I hav one resource I can ask, but no guarantees...

anyway, good uck in ur search tho - if u do find sumone, I'd b interested as well, lol;

[Reality_Check]

I'm pretty sure Su Yu Chang teaches Baji.

http://www.pachitanglang.com/

[RAF]

http://www.wutangusa.com/

New York Wu Tang Martial Arts Institute
134-20 Northern Boulevard Flushing, NY, 11354 Tel:718-359-5775

[dimethylsea]

I'm pretty sure Su Yu Chang teaches Baji.

http://www.pachitanglang.com/


I've been to visit them. I was mainly looking at their xingyi, but they are super nice people. Definitely talk to them.

[doug maverick]

i heard of and thought about pachi however, i dont like the fact that i would have to learn tanglong, i have no interest in that.

[omarthefish]

I lost my cherry a couple of weeks back.

Fought Leitai. :D

A couple of my best moments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

The rules are spelled out in the description of the full fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obPaAcbW8fc

[hskwarrior]

looks like you hit him with a sow choy at the end there...nice job

[taai gihk yahn]

looks like you hit him with a sow choy at the end there...nice job

baji doesn't have so choy, so you are clearly mistaken ;););)

[omarthefish]

Call it whatever you want dudes. :D

Here's another one, same tech but while backing up actually:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/obelove/heng-leiwmv.gif?t=1303828238

That was from my second fight of the day. That dude was a coach at the school. We were much more evenly matched than me and the guy I took the highlight clips from. I picked those highlights because they are textbook Bajiquan. A shoulder slam, an elbow to the body and that "sau choi" is part of the second combo from "Dabaji" or alternately, from the first exchange in the Baji 2 man set. :)

[JamesC]

So the wide arm punch is an actual technique in Baji?

Genuine interest, not trolling.

[hskwarrior]

baji doesn't have so choy, so you are clearly mistaken

LOL...i don't know the techniques of baggy....jk...baji...but i did say it LOOKED that way. so you are mistaken about me being mistaken. ;):p:D

[omarthefish]

So the wide arm punch is an actual technique in Baji?

Genuine interest, not trolling.

This is my form performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8G9FW5hM3U

You can see the "wide arm punch" at about the 36 second mark. In the form, the intent is to strike with the forearm. The leitai event I fought in prohibited punching to the head so I just switched to an open palm for the same technique. ;)

[omarthefish]

LOL...i don't know the techniques of baggy....jk...baji...but i did say it LOOKED that way. so you are mistaken about me being mistaken. ;):p:D

**** straight Frank.

The only difference is in the training intent. Plus, having trained at least a little
Choi Li Fut with you . . .who's to say? And then there's the long arm Hung Gar stuff. (probably stolen from Lama Pai) and of course, the Baji move I showed in the form performance linked.

I went in representing Zhang Xiang Wu Boxing Assc. so I'm calling it Bajiquan! Besides, if you look at the "highlights" clip, there are a couple of other moves that are totally trademark Baji. The shoulder strike and, most classically, the elbow to the chest. When that fight was over I had like 5 or 6 different people congratulate me specifically on the elbow to the chest because it's textbook Baji!!!

[YouKnowWho]

the intent is to strike with the forearm.

I like that too. I love to use my "forearm" to hit on the back of my opponent's head. After I have knocked my opponent half way out, I then use head lock to take him down. Even in the wrestling match, most judges won't be able to see that strike to the back of the head as illegal move. It's well hidden by the head lock.

[hskwarrior]

All that matters is that you went out there and did your thing. nice job.

[taai gihk yahn]

This is my form performance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8G9FW5hM3U

You can see the "wide arm punch" at about the 36 second mark. In the form, the intent is to strike with the forearm. The leitai event I fought in prohibited punching to the head so I just switched to an open palm for the same technique. ;)

nice!


LOL...i don't know the techniques of baggy....jk...baji...but i did say it LOOKED that way. so you are mistaken about me being mistaken. ;):p:D
c'mon Frank - he's CLEARLY not dressed in the sort of outfit that a CLF guy would wear, and he's doing this in NORTHERN China - what more evidence do you need?!?!

[hskwarrior]

c'mon Frank - he's CLEARLY not dressed in the sort of outfit that a CLF guy would wear, and he's doing this in NORTHERN China - what more evidence do you need?!?!

He's in disguise. in his part of china CLF'rs aren't that popular. LOL.

But he does like that northern stuff....northern california and northern china.

[taai gihk yahn]

He's in disguise. in his part of china CLF'rs aren't that popular. LOL.

But he does like that northern stuff....northern california and northern china.

lmao......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good work numbnuts.
What's next for you?

[Dragonzbane76]

Nice. Hope you had fun that's what matters. :)

[taai gihk yahn]

Nice. Hope you had fun that's what matters. :)

doubtful - it doesn't look at all like baji, more like some sort of glori...well, like something else...

[Dragonzbane76]

more like some sort of glori...well, like something else...

haha glori... come on you know you wanted to say it. :D

[taai gihk yahn]

haha glori... come on you know you wanted to say it. :D

and I know that you wanted to hear it! :D:D:D