why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?

[yellowpikachu]

why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?

Why is it that some said this section training internal energy?

Which move is training internal energy?

[yellowpikachu]

Hello wcners

Dont be shy on sharing what everyone is doing in every training or almost in every training.

What is the purpose of that sam pai fut practice?

[stuartm]

Hi,

The 3 fook / wu section is known as '3 prayers to buddha' or san pai fut. Some people say that the Wu sau is a good indication that WC originated from Siu Lam as the monks apparently bow with a similar hand shape to wu sau, pressed against the chest.

As for training 'internal' energy, the whole of the first section is generally accepted as focusing the 'internal' side. i.e drawing in the breath from the dan tien, gung lik in the elbow, sinking, rooting.

Dont worry too much about intepretation - you will never find a wholehearted consensus. Just find a good teacher and practice hard, in time you will make SLT your own and realise that there is more than one set way to practice.

Best wishes, Stuart

[Tom Kagan]

I've never called that section SaamBaiFaht. Of course, others do.

I do call the last portion of BiuJee SaamBaiFaht, however. It has a virtually identical resemblance to about half of the full motion of a monk's prayer bow prostrations. Some Ving Tsun practitioners call the entire BiuJee form SaamBaiFaht.

If you want to discuss the first section of SiuNimTao, okay. However, if you want to discuss the nature of SaamBaiFaht in relation to Ving Tsun Kung Fu, I feel it would be better to discuss BiuJee.

[Vajramusti]

Tom Kagan sez:

if you want to discuss the nature of SaamBaiFaht in relation to Ving Tsun Kung Fu, I feel it would be better to discuss BiuJee.
------------------------------------------------------------

Si

[stuartm]

Just for the record, we dont call it anything, but i habe heard it called that elsewhere. Dont the Weng Chun people call it that. Maybe Andreas Hoffman could enlighten us?

Regards, Stu

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Tom Kagan sez:

if you want to discuss the nature of SaamBaiFaht in relation to Ving Tsun Kung Fu, I feel it would be better to discuss BiuJee.
------------------------------------------------------------

Si


why so?

[Vajramusti]

Not everyone calls it sam pai fut.

Some use the term for the first 3 slt moves because of the three single wu-s with intent for each hand.

Some Others who developed beyond the slt used the term for the final section of biu jee.. because there are two palms in prayer like positions done with sinking and rising motions- as though one is doing the regular ritual of 3 prayers to the buddha.

Some dont use the term at all. Some are interested in the semiotics and the meaning of mudras. Others are just interested in the martial benefit. To each his own.

[VingDragon]

simple question and simple answer:

all forms like a SLT, ChK, BCh and MJ are modern. They were created not long time ago, (perhabs 80-100 years ago) but they comes originaly from other forms like Weng Chun Kuen or Saam Pai Fut which are separated.

Saam Pai Fut is a traditional form of Weng Chun style and it includes a part called "three bows to Budda"

[PaulH]

Just curious, what is the meaning of the three bows to Buddha?

[Vajramusti]

Sorry. Wengchun ad wing chun are different things.
Praying thrice to the Buddha is a common ritual and is no one's monopoly.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
Just curious, what is the meaning of the three bows to Buddha?


Historically,

In 1854, Liu Duchuan (Lao Doo-Chuen), brother of Guangdong Three Harmonies Society member and Shanghai Xiaodaohui (Siu Do Wui, Small Knife Society) leader, Liu Lichuan (Lao Lee-Chuen), http://www.wingchunkuen.com/why/articles/contemporary/santo_shanghai.html
was sent back to Guangdong (which had been charged with paying 80.6% of the Opium War reparations) to help organize an uprising in support of the Taiping. In June, He Liu (Ho Lok), a smuggler and society member whose brother had been murdered in a prefectural purge, began to raise a band of men in search of vengeance. Helped by Liu Yingcai (Lao Ying-Choi), he prepared to attack the Dongguan county seat.

They moved on Stone Dragon town. Thirty thousand members and six hundred boats worked towards the goal of "taking down the Dragon, lifting the tiger, stopping the goat, bowing the Buddha, and reaching the Western paradise."

In this code, dragon signified the Stone Dragon, tiger the Tiger Gate, goat the Goat City (Guangzhou), Buddha the Buddha Mountain (Foshan), and Western Paradise the province of Guangxi.


He Liu's uprising began a chain reaction through the region, and on June 11, 1854, Chen Kai (Chan Hoi) and Liu Duchuan lead 7000 Three Harmonies Society members to revolt in Foshan. On June 12th, members of the Precious Jade Flower Union, under the direction of Li Wenmao, took to the streets in full costume, waving red banners. A few hundred at first, within a few days, tens of thousands of common people joined as well, showing their allegiance with red turbans. And the Hung Gam (Hong Jin, Red Turban) Rebellion was born..........

[VingDragon]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Wengchun ad wing chun are different things.
I agree but today's Wing Chun becomes from Weng Chun

[PaulH]

How did this Red Turban rebellion in Foshan have any relevance in the Sam bai fut of SLT though? Why did the creator(s)? of SLT want to have it in there? Thanks, Picassoo! =)

[Vajramusti]

The connection is not clear- yet.

[yylee]

Originally posted by PaulH
How did this Red Turban rebellion in Foshan have any relevance in the Sam bai fut of SLT though? Why did the creator(s)? of SLT want to have it in there? Thanks, Hendrik!

You can romanize Foshan as Fut San in Cantonese, that translates to "Buddha Mountain".

The Yang as in Ying/Yang sounds the same as "goat" in Cantonese. Some WC people like to use the character "goat" when they describe YJKYM, some use the "Yang" character.

Chinese(especially Cantonese I think) like to play with words that way sometimes, making associations base on pronounciation.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by VingDragon
I agree but today's Wing Chun becomes from Weng Chun

What proof is there to back this statement up??

How do you know it wasn't Weng Chun that came from Wing Chun?

If a path forks, how can you say which of the forks is the original path??

[VingDragon]

How do you know it wasn't Weng Chun that came from Wing Chun?
from history of this system, from techniques, from forms and their applications, I know it also from my ex-sifu and his teachers and from my own experiences


If a path forks, how can you say which of the forks is the original path?? please, look into successors line

[canglong]

What proof is there to back this statement up?? How do you know it wasn't Weng Chun that came from Wing Chun?
There has been exstensive research on this by the VTM
History of Shaolin Weng Chun (http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/chi_sim/chi_sim_history.php)

[Vajramusti]

Another story. Many stories.

Look at mechanics- stances in particular and related energy directions.

Some wing chun folks call it sam pai fut- some dont. The principles of the motion are the key.

[canglong]

Look at mechanics- stances in particular and related energy directions. Such as

history lesson in structure and stance (http://www.tempewingchun.com/content.html)
Care to elaborate on this history of the stance, structure and energy of the elbows in these pictures Vajramusti.

[Vajramusti]

Ving Dragon sez:

from history of this system, from techniques, from forms and their applications, I know it also from my ex-sifu and his teachers and from my own experiences
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For your POV- if you say so!!

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by PaulH
How did this Red Turban rebellion in Foshan have any relevance in the Sam bai fut of SLT though? Why did the creator(s)? of SLT want to have it in there? Thanks, Picassoo! =)



In Yik Kam lineage, from the writing which Yik Kam past down 1850 era, there is no Sam Bai Fut term mention.


some other seem to using the term later on.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by yylee
You can romanize Foshan as Fut San in Cantonese, that translates to "Buddha Mountain".

The Yang as in Ying/Yang sounds the same as "goat" in Cantonese. Some WC people like to use the character "goat" when they describe YJKYM, some use the "Yang" character.

Chinese(especially Cantonese I think) like to play with words that way sometimes, making associations base on pronounciation.

great code name for mass operation. easy to be memorized by the illiterate mass isnt it?

and

Bai Fut doesnt always means Praying or Bowing to the Buddha.
This is a proof of how people use term in old time.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by canglong
Such as

history lesson in structure and stance (http://www.tempewingchun.com/content.html)
Care to elaborate on this history of the stance, structure and energy of the elbows in these pictures Vajramusti.



Joy,

The above is an off topic question for this discussion?



BTW:
There at least a few person in this forum now, can pin point very specifically where the energy of the elbows, which medirians were used, and how to activate the medirians reference to a writing and drawing of Emei 12 Zhuang.

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by VingDragon


please, look into successors line


how many has a direct line written record (not oral) with family members who can traced up to 1840 from multiple source ?

Until one find that, who can certain it is not likely to be a make up of modern day?

In the process of Localization Evolution, lots of things might changes.


and I think the history stuffs is off topic from this discussion. we dont want to get into those he says she says arguements, isnt it?

[VingDragon]

well, it's a mistery, in today's world no one can proof what was true so, every topic about history and techniques has the same sad ending.

[Vajramusti]

Ving Dragon sez:
well, it's a mistery, in today's world no one can proof what was true so, every topic about history and techniques has the same sad ending.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not quite true. History is a "softer" area of knowledge than mathematical physics- but still some findings become firmly accepted among knowledgeable people.

A feisty internet chat list is hardly a place to establish findings.

Much "kwoon" research" is just self serving.

There are reputable journals and presses for serious work with independent refereeing systems for various fields including sports and martial arts.

Douglas Wile's work on tai chi in several books and articles are examples. He clearly points to the origins of tai chi and the role of
Chen village etc. No more mysticism on Chan Fan seng(sp?)
being the father of tai chi among knowledgeable folks. Poof!

Nothing wrong with lineages and families having their own
stories-can be a source of tentative theses or sources of morale- the problem arises when these are pushed as established truths
for everyone.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by VingDragon
from history of this system, from techniques, from forms and their applications, I know it also from my ex-sifu and his teachers and from my own experiences

please, look into successors line

Which 'history'? There are more than one.

What techniques are evidence of 'history'?

How do forms and their applications prove 'history'?

How is knowing it from your ex-sifu and his teachers proof of 'history'?

And most of all, am I supposed to believe that 'from your own experience' you are saying you have 'witnessed' the divergence of Wing Chun from Weng Chun? You're that old?

Is it history?... or as Hendrik types it, his-story?

-----------------------------------------

BTW, I have read the articles on The VT museum's web site, along with the article in IKF that Benny Meng wrote, and articles on wingchunkuen.com, and Rene and Robert's book 'Complete Wing Chun', and 'Mastering Kung Fu' by Garret Gee, Benny Meng, and Richard Loewenhagen, as well as many other sources of info on the 'history' of Wing Chun.

------------------------------------------

It can be said that they originated from the same source, but to say that one was the source for the other is speculative.

[VingDragon]

well., I know what I know :) You've got your own knowledge about the system and I have my own. I'm not telling you to belive me, but the true story about that system knows just few people in the world - and the rest are only theories and speculations

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by VingDragon
well., I know what I know :) You've got your own knowledge about the system and I have my own. I'm not telling you to belive me, but the true story about that system knows just few people in the world - and the rest are only theories and speculations

The question is - How do you separate fact from theories and speculations?

If you do this by 'what your sifu told you', than you are basing your understanding on hearsay. If you do this by what can be proven as fact, by either being 'self-evident' or supported by other historical accounts that specifically reveal evidence, than you are using truth. I don't rule out possibility, but they produce, as you said, theories and speculations. Theories and speculations are necissary to lead to answers, but they should not be used as fact in a debate.

So you know, my 'knowledge' of the 'system' - as you put it - is predominantly rooted in understanding of technique of the 'system' I leared, as it has been presented to me by those who have been my instructors. The same, I imagine, is true for everyone else, in whatever lineage or art they study.

I have read the different takes on history and have therefor drawn my own conclusions regarding that subject. I believe it doesn't really matter what the truth is, in regards to history. What IS improtant is how the techniques are understood and used TODAY. The truth of techniques as they are used today, should not be based on history, but on science, body mechanics and physiology.

[VingDragon]

so, "why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?"

why no one can give us an simple answer on that question?

:confused:

[anerlich]

why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?

Because "the slow bit at the beginning" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Vajramusti]

VingDragon sez:
so, "why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?"

why no one can give us an simple answer on that question?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several answers have been given. Some key points in my POV anyway-

1. Bowing with prayer palms three times occurs in several Buddhist practices. In Buddhist cosmology many different numbers and names occur---3, 9, 18, 108 etc.

2 Some martial arts use numbers and names for organizing their system- using similar names and numbers does not mean that
different arts are automatically and intimately related. By osmosis- lots of Buddhist symbolisms are intertwined with other signs in
Chinese culture at different times.

3. The first section of slt for Ip Man ralated wing chun folks has
wu-s done 3 times. Wu-s look like single prayer palms. Single prayer palms are also sometimes greetings and salutations- even in some northern mantis and some monk greetings.

3. Calling that section sam pai fut is not universal.

4. Some think that the last section of Ip Man's biu jee "looks" like
bowing down and up with double prayer palms 3 times. Again calling that sam bai fut is not unversal.

5. You as a weng chun person may assume that the name sam pai fat is a direct bio mechanical link in different arts. Just your opinion or your sifu's opinion. Any one can have an opinion.
Specially on net forums all sorts of opinions abound.
While Ip man knew some weng chun folks- he himself pointed out that
his art and weng chun are different arts and the characters are different..
Of course generically at some point in some theories everything is related to evrything else. Nirvana can be a band name.

6. As far as names go I do not tell students doing the slt- now do the sam bai fut- never heard my teacher do that in class either-
in turn have not seen my sigung call it that when he was correcting his current students.Never heard either one of them saying that Ip man insited on calling the wu sao section of slt-sam pai fut. So- what's your problem?

7. Ultimately doing wing chun motions well developmentally and applying and adjusting practically is more important than a name.

[VingDragon]

I have no any problems in wengchun system so I don't care about opinions ;)

anyway :

3 bows to Vajramusti for his last 3 posts :D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by VingDragon
so, "why is the section in SLT is called sam bai fut?"

why no one can give us an simple answer on that question?

:confused:





As it was shown in written history of China, of Canton 1850's, as A FACTS.


1, Bai Fut was not neccessary connect to Buddhism or Shao Lin.

2, There was only a White Crane Weng Chun from Fujian which can be traced up to 1660's era in the Radar Screen of Southern Chinese martial art pre Wing Chun Kuen of the Red boat.

3, Sam Bia fut term doesnt exist in the written record of SLT before 1850.



The rest, God knows what is the truth?
Since these days everyone can has thier own His-story made and tailor to fit thier needs as they like it, in this free world.


And what are those HIS-STORy contribute to the training of the art beside making claim?



A simple answer with FACTS, will you willing to take it? or certainly, everyone here can respect you beliving you own believe.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
2, There was only a White Crane Weng Chun from Fujian which can be traced up to 1660's era in the Radar Screen of Southern Chinese martial art pre Wing Chun Kuen of the Red boat.

What qualities did White Crane Weng Chun have similar to either Weng Chun or Wing Chun?

Just curious.:)

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
What qualities did White Crane Weng Chun have similar to either Weng Chun or Wing Chun?

Just curious.:)


I know about Wing Chun but not others.

The center line concept. The DNA of the inch punch.. as for the Technics, you can read in the Bubishi book.

The Three points FIVE PLUM (Ng Mui) flower...... on and on and on

[AmanuJRY]

Does it include the forms?

or something similar, to indicate that's where the forms came from?

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Does it include the forms?

or something similar, to indicate that's where the forms came from?

Not a Happy Question, pika pika.

You have asked the pikachu a TABOO question which some do not like to hear the answer! Pika Pika

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, PM me with the answer, that way only I will see it.:D

[yellowpikachu]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
Ok, PM me with the answer, that way only I will see it.:D

ASK Jim that Boston Guy!

[todi laugin]

You need not worry about the name just focus on the actual aplication of the moves. That will give you the insight into what is ment by the name.