Pa Kua and Spanish Fencing

[Andy]

Has anyone noticed any similarities between Pa Kua footwork and the circular footwork used by the Spanish fencers? Are there any similarities between Pa Kua sword and Spanish sword as both use a circular method and both would need to keep the dominant (sword hand) forward most of the time.

Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai

[count]

Andy,

Maybe an interesting comparison, but I don't have enough knowledge of spanish fencing to compare. I would say that the characteristics that make bagua sword unique to bagua styles, are the use of bagua principles such as turning, overturning, wrapping, piercing, etc. that are seen in the bagua hands usage. And that using the sword predominantly forward is a matter of distance and not unique to bagua sword.

Interesting that you point out that spanish fencing involves circular footwork though. I wasn't aware that many other fencing styles use anything other than linear or angular footwork.

Do you have any links to video or something related to spanish fencing that might show examples of what you're talking about?

[Andy]

Yes,

google "La Destreza" or the name Ramon Martinez. Let me know what you think. If you can find it take a look at their "circle", it's pretty amazing.

Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai

[count]

I'll be spending some time going through this but off the bat, I love this graphic.

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/thib_cir.gif

[mickey]

Greetings,

The are a few different ethnic groups in Spain. When I visited the site and saw the reference to mathematical/geometrical theories, it made me think that these fighting methods originated with the Moors.

mickey

[Andy]

Count,

I'm glad that you like the site on La Destreza. It is a pretty fascinating art. Let me know what you think of it as you get a little further into it.

Andy
Fu Hok Yau Kung Fut Pai

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Andy
Has anyone noticed any similarities between Pa Kua footwork and the circular footwork used by the Spanish fencers?

Yes and no. There are some rather curious similarities, as we might also say for aikido, for instance -- but we should not be too enthusiastic in celebrating these and in so doing obscure the important differences that make these arts intriguing.

If you compare the circlewalking exercises of Spanish fencing and baguazhang, you should quickly note such distinctions. The fencer is, relatively speaking, pointing towards the center of the circle while the boxer is perhaps more accurately described as pointing along its circumference, albeit with the twist of the upper torso obscuring this fact. Because of this distinction, the resulting steps in making a circle are different: relatively sideways for the fencer and forwards for the boxer.

Personally, I've found both exercises to have their own characteristic benefits. The gong aspect of the baguazhang method is undeniable, and is certainly an essential feature of the art. The fencing method is more directed towards application, perhaps with some analogies to post-heaven baguazhang practices in some schools which are handled in straight line patterns as a result of untwisting the circlewalking posture -- however, while retaining the general character of the circle.


Are there any similarities between Pa Kua sword and Spanish sword...?

Generally, I would say not so much. The Spanish sword method in question here is occurring within the Italian-Spanish sidesword-rapier-smallsword tradition, and thus owes much of its character to this context -- a context, of course, wholly alien to baguazhang dao or jian work. The rapier is an infamously idiosyncratic weapon, with characteristics distinct from chinese swords. Perhaps the jian is similar to some sideswords, but the Spanish tradition we speak of here seems to begin with the rapier; and, in any case, similar weapons existing in very different martial contexts are still likely to produce different systems of employment.

That said, I think that if you approach each method in terms of the benefits it offers in and of itself, that you will find both have allures which will increase your martial practice generally -- and have some cross-benefits. We may suggest, in this regard, that the peng developed by baguazhang practice may have utility in the single-time actions prominent to the Italian-Spanish rapier tradition. This is one example.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by count
I wasn't aware that many other fencing styles use anything other than linear or angular footwork.

Definitely. The aforementioned site has a FAQ (http://www.martinez-destreza.com/fenfaq.htm) which clarifies the pertinent definitions of fencing here. The linear or angular footwork most familiar to modern fencing began with the early-to-mid Italian rapier theorists, and became further popularized by the French school to eventually develop into the contemporary method.

Previous theorists in this tradition very much used circular footwork, such as the early or transitional Italian rapier theorists, and certainly the sidesword and earlier fencers. The Spanish tradition is somewhat remarkable in not really using the lunge which became central elsewhere, and which was fundamental in producing linear footwork.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by mickey
When I visited the site and saw the reference to mathematical/geometrical theories, it made me think that these fighting methods originated with the Moors.

This is probably not the case. It's true that the Moors inherited via Neoplatonism the geometric tradition of Pythagoras, but the same was also passed on through fundamentally European movements such as the hermeticism which was familiar to Thibault, whose diagram has been offered here. Perhaps one might say that the Europeans owe some debt to the Moors for helping to propagate this tradition; but, in any case, this is much different than suggesting they originated this fighting method which is very much a product of Catholic Spain.