Mantis/grappling

[sayloc]

How much grappling do the pure mantis guys teach. Not just joint locks but the throws, hold downs, arm bars, chokes and escapes. I know if you are good you will not end up on the ground but many fights do end up there.

I only spend one day a week on this during the full contact class. Most students are not interested in this kind of training. To be honest most of the throws and such come from my Judo/jujitsu background.

Just wondering how you guys do it and if this type of grappleing is taught in the more pure styles, or is it mainly just two person punch and kick drills with some joint locks.

Thanks

[shirkers1]

7* is full of throws, arm bars, joint lock etc, and is part of our every day training. Basically two man drills are taken from the empty hand forms and all of the examples above are in the forms so they should be done as much as possible.

Almost all fights unless ended by a lucky shot or some fluke will end up with someone or both going to the ground. So everyone should be ready to handle themselves when this happens. Whether it's countering the arm bar/ joint lock before it can fully be applied or biting, poking pinching once it has been applied so on and so on.

One of my students said to me when they first started to move around, "I want to do to you what I would do in a fight, or at least what I'm comfortable with right now". Being that his training was minimal at the time I guess he didn't feel he could flow with his mantis in a fight yet. So he basically tried to rush me, I had hit him 3 or 4 times in the head from different angles and took out his leg and basically was just hovering over him. He tried time and time again until I said. "Okay you go ahead and get ahold of me". He has a strong wrestling background and he got me down on the ground and tried to choke me out. I pinched him under his arm and twisted then bit his arm until he let go, then I was on the offensive. :) So I don't know 7* to me covers all the fighting ranges, it works and that's why I've stuck with it instead of moving on to other styles, it has everything I need.

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't rely on pinches on the ground... my personal oppinion, of course. My experience in grappling has shown me that pain compliance is not the right way to handle a ground grappling situation.

[shirkers1]

Well what do you have for me then? You can't just throw that out and not give an example of what "you" would do. :)

I've used it plenty of times and it's worked fine for me. I didn't say it was your only option, It's just another tool.

[German Bai Lung]

I also think pinching is no solution. If you get into a situation on the ground as you descibe it, normally in a real fighting situation the guy would easily break your neck! So if he gets you and you pinch him, he normally would not let you out but just break your neck!

In a training situation noone would really want to break your neck (I hope!) so this guy let you out!

It´s the problem of training-situations and reallife-situations! Why should there be alway a answer to any situation? If your opponent was able to kick your in the groin with full speed, well there is no answer to it!
Best is, you don´t let it happen! Same for getting in situations where the opponent could choke you out! If so: well at that point you lost!

[ninjaboy]

my sifu always advocated being skilled in all of the fighting ranges possible because hey, you never know...

he felt it very important to be comfortable in any range, be it kicking range, punching range, trapping range and of course, grappling range which can be done standing or on the ground. very early in our training he started to introduce us to the wide field of possibilities of fighting sitiuations and to help build our confidence and our ability we engaged regularly in all-range sparring sessions. he also encouraged us to enter different sport venues like sport jujitsu and various sanda-like competitions to get a broad taste of talent out there. he says mantis is mantis whether you are standing up or lying down, and besides using different neutralization skills, various chinna aplications and "dirty" fighting tricks (biting, pinching, attacks to delicate areas etc) we HK tanglangers have a cool drunken set with loads of cool ground application. personally, i agree with him and also think it is important to have skills in all areas of combat.

just my 2 cents

neil

[sayloc]

I dont think that shirkers meant that he relied on the pinch as the final end all for the battle, just one option in his arsenal.

I personally teach the things like a pinch or a hit on the back of the hand with the knuckles as a "mind lead". This sudden shock of pain takes there mind from putting pressure on your neck (only for a split second of course) to the pain. This will hopefully loosen the grip just enogh to get out of the hold or revese a hold lock on them. Just a threory and it will not work all the time. That is why we have so many different "theories".

I have not heard anyone talk much about their method of teachng grappling. From the descriptions I have read the people seems to have taken it from another system like myself. I never see any videos of people grappling. This leads me to believe that way grappling is taught in mantis may not be as effective as it could be. It sounds like most people what they think may be a throw out of a form.

I agree that mantis is mantis on the ground or standing up, but if you teach stances and a specific method to blocking and punching while standing, why not have an effective system for teaching throwing/grappling.

Teach a hip throw and the variations of that in case it is blocked. Same with leg sweeping techniques, the basic and the variations. Scarf hold the basic hold and the varieations...and so on.

Is this the next level that mantis needs to develop? Who would do it? Who would make it part of mantis?

I understand that there are 36 techniques of grappling, take downs and locks. Is this taught in a particular sequence or with any method of developing these techniques?

Have a good day

[shirkers1]

Thanks sayloc you're right. I didn't say it was my be all end all just a "tool" in an arsenal. I know I'm not the strongest wrestler out there. I can hold my own on the ground, I have good sensitivity, etc but I know I would rather stick and move with someone whose better at wrestling than me. But it's happened where you slip or the guy gets in on you by suprise and you end up on the ground. You can't always counter and that's where "street" tactics come in to play. When you get in those positions those shocking tactics usually help give you that split second to slip or reverse the tactic on him.

Lately we've been training a lot of throws and arm locks. Many different variations. So they're there in the empty hand sets just pull them out and make a 2 man drill for them. The problem (which is where I think the guys from the mainland are seeing but come across to harsh when saying it) is that some students of mantis really don't know what they are doing when they perform the sets. So they don't realize how they can pull these tactics and drills from the sets.

I'm not singling any one out here so don't get crazy on me I'm just saying some of the people I've personally seen can't do this.

[German Bai Lung]

Sayloc and shirkers1: I understand what you´re saying and you´re right. It´s good to be familiar with all distances and all situations you could be involved. And also to involve your opponent in it! :D

But what I´m trying to say: if you ever get in a serious "neckhold" (uhoh, now I realize I don´t know the english words for wrestling terms!) there will be no "release". You get your neck broken. Thats it. So if you are pinching or kick against his skin: that will not change your broken neck! ;)

For Example: Dan Bin Cheui or single whip punch. You find this move very often and its mostly applied as reward slap through the face. But you can also use it as catching the opponents neck and then immediatly throwing him over your hip. It will always brake his neck also! No matter if he is pinching me or not! He is done ....

[shirkers1]

Bai

In that situation you are correct a pinch will not work. Where that would be effective is say you have somehow gotten yourself in the position of someone trying to choke you out via head lock. You're both on the ground. Now usually someone isn't trying to kill you in a street fight. But the average person for some reason feels they have to get a hold of you and get you in a head lock to try and punch you in the face. Here is where your "dirty street tactics come into play to get him to release you. Why try to fight strength with strength? You need to get out of that position asap before you get choked out or knocked out. :)

I see your point. :)

[MightyB]

You're not going to find what I think that you're looking for in Mantis with the groundfighting.

If you're looking for the guard, ground sweeps, knee on belly, hold downs, reversals, cranks, locks, passes, etc. that are common to MMA and groundfighting... they're not in Mantis. I'm not quite sure what people have described here is that, because really to find that style of fighting, you have to look at Judo and the styles that have been derived from Judo like Sambo and BJJ to get that stuff.

There is an interesting book from YMAA called Chin Na for Groundfighting that's worth a look. It's by Al Arsenault. I like this one because it's written by a groundfighter who's converted to CMA. Most of the stuff on Chin Na for the ground or using TCMA to fight groundfighters was written by people who had no real experience fighting ground fighters, so mostly the stuff that's available is bunk.

I strongly advise people to try some friendly Randori with experienced grapplers in their environment. It's an eye opener.

[German Bai Lung]

Mighty B: I see your points and I think its really interesting no matter what kind of Art you are practising or which style you friendly spar with.

But for the fight with Grapplers: it´s always the same argumentation, what to do if he grapples you. Well, let him not grap you! That sounds ignorant, but let me try to explain!

When you get in a real fight you will use your taughest weapons of mantis, right? So you will kick him in the groin or blind him with you fingers or ... okay you get it. But this will not work if you do some friendly sparring. So, MMA compared to TCMA is not working at all, IMHO.

That must not mean, that its not good to train sometimes with this folks and to gain some competitions with their rules, just to see what will work! But then we are not playing our game!

[shirkers1]

Mighty B Wow you don't have these tactics you describe in your mantis? They are all over the place. Basic grappling, trapping, arm bars, etc knowledge is used in a ground situation just as much in a toe to toe stand up situation.

A lot of the throws are designed to have the other person crash to the ground landing in awkward positions. But there are many that allow you to take the guy to the ground via locks, arm bars, etc.

So you are telling me that you just stop there? I mean you just applied an arm bar right? You took him to the ground okay fights over get up, dust off and walk away? <--by the way I was being sarcastic there. You don't stop at joint locks take down or whatever you finish up with following tactics.

Now it may not be brazilian jujitsu, but basic principals are there if you know how to find them.

[shirkers1]

Bai I agree with you 100%

The point is to play your game and use your strengths and exploit his weakness. That's a major part of mantis thinking. You need to know how to handle those certain situations on the ground because you will end up there sometime. Mantis has those tactics and you should be training them.

Wow an actual thread on mantis tactics, this is fun. :)

[MightyB]

Using a lock to hold somebody down after a throw isn't groundfighting. Shrikers, I'm not sure were on the same page. Throwing, locking, breaking, yada yada yada is taught extremely well from the standing position. Also, following a throw with a lock that holds somebody on the ground is also shown, but the MMA stuff like being pinned down isn't.

I've never seen the guard taught in mantis or the myriad of techniques that are associated with it. Nor have I seen anything that deals with escaping from the bad side of the mount.

Everything Mantis deals with not going to the ground in a wrestling type of fight which is a good tactic, but I don't think that's what Sayloc was asking about.

[Oso]

missed this thread so deleted the one I started and reposting my question


quote Sifu Cottrell from another thread:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, you should know that many have a seventh Zhaiyao Quan, (created by Song Zide) which contains the ground fighting for those lines.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone have vid of this?

Or some good description of what mantis specific ground fighting really looks like?

[shirkers1]

B Like I said it may not be brazilian jujitsu but the tactics are there. I'm speaking for myself here, and that's part of my training. To me this is just common sense so I don't know how to put it "shortly" into words where it's at and how to do it. :) It's theory and how you apply mantis tactics to the ground. Obviously I'm not making sense to you, so I'll agree to dis agree. :)

[shirkers1]

I know there are ground fighting tactics in the drunken set, as well as the drunken sword set. As a quick example.

[MightyB]

In the Drunken set, or in Hung Sau Po Churn, where you swing your legs like a breakdancer doing the coin flop... There is a two person drill taught in Judo to use a guard to transition to an armbar that looks a lot like that coin flop move if it's done solo, but, this is just coincidence. In my opinion All of the groundfighting stuff that looks like MMA or wrestling in TCMA is a recent creation. It's revisionist like when engineers use modern techniques to try to recreate solutions to ancient engineering problems.

[Oso]

Grappling on the ground (neiwaza) is not ground fighting but an aspect of ground fighting.

The basic strategy of modern MMA style ground fighters is to neutralize your offense by way of the mount (top, side, etc.) and either choke you out, apply a damaging arm/leg lock or ground and pound you into submission.

I have seen an assumption in CMA that a good hard throw is going to be the end of the fight and I don't think that is realistic if your opponent has any body conditioning at all (any type of construction worker, ex HS/college athlete).

It is also a tad bit harder to break someone's neck than most might think.

I'd like to see some hard evidence that there is indeed some sort of ground grappling in mantis...maybe in that 7th road of Zhaiyao Quan...but I'd say that there isn't really any.


Is this the next level that mantis needs to develop? Who would do it? Who would make it part of mantis?

that's a really good question. like adding another line to the poem.

[shirkers1]

B I see your point on the modern thing. But that is what mantis is about, the ability to adapt to modern times. You can still apply mantis tactics to those situations. By using mantis tactics not a brazilian jujitsu mounting hold.

You have in White ape steals the peach, a simultanious hein choi crescent kick, which is actually a diau grab LH and crescent kick RL/ fake hein RH, arm bar with the crescent kick swinging over the arm and dropping to the ground. From there using your leverage you are already on top of the other guy. Multiple strikes and locks from there.

[shirkers1]

oso

exactly as I stated before, you don't stop with a throw or arm bar/ take down whatever. You finish the job by continuing on with the attack. Never leave to chance that your tactic is the end all be all you keep going till it's over. So after he's on the ground you (using mantis tactics) finish the job.

[MightyB]

Shirkers (I thought it was "Shrikers"-- Shrikers is kind've cooler cause it reminds me of an Eagle for some reason)

But that's a chin na move used to force a person down and hold them, or break their arm or use your imagination... and it's a standing move. It's applied with both people in the standing position. Ground fighting is different, that's why I advocate Arsenault's book. Ground is both on the ground wrestling... it's different, and unless you do it or train in it with somebody who knows it, you really are just guessing.

[shirkers1]

B ah it's the name of my old band.

But when done correctly you drop to a low fighting stance after words and you are on top of your "victim". From there is were the ground fighting happens. He's face in the dirt, and that is where the attack continues on the ground. Just because I'm not in the mounting position doesn't mean we aren't fighting on the ground. It's a different form of ground fighting.

The book is a great idea if you want to learn how to counter another style. I agree, some of those counters involve before mentioned street tactics. :)

[Oso]

Shirkers1, can you describe for me a specific mantis technique to follow and control a downed opponent while rendering him incapable of doing further harm to you?

[MightyB]

But I do prefer Mantis over the newer MMA/Judo stuff. I'm again just pointing out that Mantis or any other TCMA is mistakenly thinking that they're training ground like MMAers do.

The exception is when you get a bonafide crosstrainer. There's a danger in that though too, because often a "Jack of All Trades" is a master of none.

[Frogman]

Great subject! Lately in class I have seen several tech’s that look like strikes but are more leverage / grab and throw. Having trained in judo and a little aikido so I truly enjoy grabbing and trapping. As I look at the twelve concepts of mantis right at the top hook, grapple, puck are chin na type applications. Cling, tag, lean another good example of getting in close to your opponent and using leverage to knock them of balance. Some advantages IMO are if you can control the arm you can control the body. This may not work on everyone but, if you have their arm that’s one less thing they can hit you with. Going to the ground is something that you have to train in or you will not have much of a chance. The biggest mistake a non ground fighter has on the ground is the lack of patience a good ground fighter will wait till you try some radical move and that’s when your in trouble. I sparred one of my younger brothers not long ago he was very fast upstairs, and was getting to close to my head with those high kicks. I rapped him up and dropped him. I was in his guard and could not believe how fast I moved into the mount. At this point I just sat there as he tried to kick me in the back he was punching flopping around, till he ran out of gas. That’s when I made a failed attempt at an arm bar. Stupid gloves. I have not learned any ground fighting in mantis, but I am personally comfortable with that. I also do not believe that every fight goes to the ground, it happens and if you taking down you should remain clam as possible. A good balance of upstairs and downstairs is important, but you should focus on one and have a little exposure to the other. If you are a ground fighter you have to take in to consideration that your not going to be able to take down everyone just the same as a striker has to deal with the ground. Lastly I would not recommend breaking some ones neck, you know the legality of and all.


RibHit
fm
:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Well what do you have for me then? You can't just throw that out and not give an example of what "you" would do. :)

I've used it plenty of times and it's worked fine for me. I didn't say it was your only option, It's just another tool.

lol, true. I would grapple - but then that's because I grapple. I'm not a mantis guy - my screenname is misleading.

[shirkers1]

Well depending on the situation of coarse it would be different. But let's say for example the White ape arm bar take down. You've tagged, now lean. "12 character principles" If you feel the need to "mount" he's already face down and you're controlling him via lock, continue in pressing on the back of his neck or head forcing his face into the ground while applying the body pressing mount. I personally don't want to wrestle so I would strike with elbows etc and get out.

It's not going to look like modern maa tactics, but just because it's not MAA groundfighting doesn't mean it's not groundfighting. You have to adapt mantis tactics to what you are trying to accomplish.

I know you're a big guy oso, I wouldn't want to wrestle with you:) that doesn't mean that I'm ignorant at what to do when you get a hold of me either. Believe me all I do is mantis and I try not to bring to much outside influence into my training and I haven't had a problem yet. Mantis is a well rounded art and can stand on it's own if taught right.

[shirkers1]

7 star yeah that's funny.

Oso just nailed me with my own comment too!!! It's hard to explain yourself in words sometimes. It's easier just to do it. :) But you guys are killing me here I have to start getting some work done. ;) I'll catch up with this thread tonight. Thanks for the great comments guys.

[Frogman]

One of my personal favorites is knocking your opponent to the ground while you still control the arm with a wrist lock and just step on their head. Then I would say something like, “Not going anywhere for a while, grab a snickers bar!”

Ya, I have wasted an hour already… back to work.

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

Oso, Sevenstar, I'm taking you both WWE style! MightyB 155lbs soaking wet vs you two.

Trying to pre-empt the multi-opponents fallacy! ;) I know you two wouldn't want to fight me!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sayloc
I dont think that shirkers meant that he relied on the pinch as the final end all for the battle, just one option in his arsenal.

I personally teach the things like a pinch or a hit on the back of the hand with the knuckles as a "mind lead". This sudden shock of pain takes there mind from putting pressure on your neck (only for a split second of course) to the pain. This will hopefully loosen the grip just enogh to get out of the hold or revese a hold lock on them. Just a threory and it will not work all the time. That is why we have so many different "theories".

It can also have the revers effect. my friend had someone in an armbar and the person bit him. the bite made him arch his hips more, which actually tightened the arm bar. I do understand what you are saying though, some wrestlers will attempt to use such techniques as distractions as they set up something.

[SevenStar]

sign it. oso and seven vs mighty b in a lumberjack match!

[Oso]

Well depending on the situation of coarse it would be different. But let's say for example the White ape arm bar take down. You've tagged, now lean. "12 character principles" If you feel the need to "mount" he's already face down and you're controlling him via lock, continue in pressing on the back of his neck or head forcing his face into the ground while applying the body pressing mount. I personally don't want to wrestle so I would strike with elbows etc and get out.

gotcha, i think. but...your follow after the takedown is not specifically in the form is it? Tag and Lean are basically from the standing position to initiate the takedown and that's all good but from that point you have stepped out of direct application of the form. Not bad, imo. But, is it mantis?

I'll stop here and say that what I would truly love to find IS some bona fide theory/technique for mantis ground fighting so don't think I'm tearing mantis down...I love the little bug.

Also, how are you going to effectively strike a downed opponent with elbows if you are NOT mounted? Even a kneeling posture is going to be rather high for striking a downed opponent. My upper arms are only a bit over a foot long.


It's not going to look like modern maa tactics, but just because it's not MAA groundfighting doesn't mean it's not groundfighting. You have to adapt mantis tactics to what you are trying to accomplish.

granted, again I'm looking for valid mantis groundfighting.


I know you're a big guy oso, I wouldn't want to wrestle with you that doesn't mean that I'm ignorant at what to do when you get a hold of me either. Believe me all I do is mantis and I try not to bring to much outside influence into my training and I haven't had a problem yet. Mantis is a well rounded art and can stand on it's own if taught right.

well, size does matter which is why there are weight classes in most events w/ grappling...and boxing for that matter. but, even two people of different sizes can randori and the big guy doesn't always win...


It's hard to explain yourself in words sometimes. It's easier just to do it.

that's why video is good for this type of discussion. I have a set from my old teacher taught to me as monkey. It was supposed to mantis but research hasn't validated that. However, it did have ground work and specifically a series of movements that ended in a mount after you knee barred him as a takedown.

clips of that form are here:

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/ninjassuck.htm

be kind, I hadn't played that set in a while when I filmed it. I did it much better when I was 25.

[Oso]

i dunno, little guys who are good tend to **** me off...they can be hard as hell to hang on to...but as long as I get to be Black Jack Mulligan I'm in.


a thought on 'pinching': when I do it, it's not a two finger pinch but a grab of the skin with the entire hand and a circular twisting/tearing motion. the best places for this are the inside of the thigh, the side of the torso and the side of the neck. this is just another distraction/fake/set up sort of tool and as already stated isn't always going to work.

[MightyB]

Oso,

I have a Mac. What Codec are you using? I'm having problems viewing the clips, all I have is a bunch of code on a page when I hit your links.

[mantis108]

I am only speaking from my own experience and doesn't represent and other's view but my very own.

Mantis does have grappling and ground fighting. In TJPM (Jiang Hualong and Song Zide's lineage), there is 7th Zhaiyao that is said to be ground fighting oriented. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know how it works.

In CCK TCPM, we have 2 forms Wu Shou Chui (5 hand punch) and Ditanglang (ground mantis). Actually there is one more but I can't be sure of the origin. It was not within GM Chiu's HK curriculum so I won't say it is from him. The other 2 forms mentioned were from his material for sure.

Mantis primarily is a striking style at least in classical concept. Through out the years it has expand into many things. Now it is certain that Mantis is about the 4 attacks - Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai.

I think taking someone down and hold/pin him doesn't mean it is ground fighting by default. It is no more or no less than many striker doing the ground and pound thing in MMA events. Ground fighting is an art unto itself. But Mantis and Ground fighting CAN go hand in hand. It is possible to make grappling (that of BJJ) as an extension of your mantis skill. Having said that, this is strictly personal opinion based on working with CCK TCPM and some grappling experience through the help of friends.

As far as training method for mantis to become ground effective, there are few things to bear in mind.

1) full under standing of monkey footwork instead of the rock solid stances. There are plenty of drills to do that.

2) Breakfalling, rolling, throws and takedowns. Good understanding of this will shorten the time to achieve submission hold.

3) Understand positional play. Hiarchey of positions, improve/controllin/releasing of positions, attack from the positions. These things must be fully understood. These also do not contradict the 12 keywords (the Greater Meihwa lineages).

4) focus on drill based training program rather form based program.

These are just a few things to share for now. If there is an interest, I will share more thoughts with you all. BTW, we have threads about mantis and grappling before. I could repost that as well.

Mantis108

[puja]

3) Understand positional play. Hiarchey of positions, improve/controllin/releasing of positions, attack from the positions. These things must be fully understood. These also do not contradict the 12 keywords (the Greater Meihwa lineages).

Hi Robert,
could you perhaps go into this point in detail. I'm not sure if I really understand what you mean by "positions" :confused:
Thanks for the input.

Best regards,

Puja

[Frogman]

What about pressure points, how often are they applied in mantis? I have been exposed to a little bit and like how by just pushing my fingers into a certain spots I get my opponents attention very quickly.

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

Pressure Points? Depends on your Sifu. Can be a lot, can be a little.

[Oso]

sorry, they are .wmv files. At the time that's all I could do to get a reasonable file size at the time. I've got Pinnacle studio 8 now so I think I can redo them as anything else but .mov

can you see .avi ??

I'll have to do it this weekend and then get my webmistress (hehe) to upload sometime.

or I could email if you can handle a larger file.

[puja]

Oso,
you could get the best compatibility with MPEG 1 (VCD) or 2 (DVD). Nearly every system should be able to show that. Also you are able to keep file size at a modarate level with adequate quality.

Puja

[Oso]

puja, yea, I can do that now with Pinnacle but I made those .wmv files with my cameras bundled software a while ago.



Robert, any video of those forms or drills from them?

[mantis108]

At the time, I wrote this my thoughts weren't too clear. I must also stress that Mantis theory and pricinple don't contradition ground grappling. It doesn't need to further borrow concepts IMHO. So I will add some more comments. The bold parts are the original post.

To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Break fall

This is most basic skill in learning takedown. Tainan Mantis (Kevin) showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills, which are to deal with the three ground positions.

Guard position - Leg raise
Side control - shrimping
mount - bridging

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

There are solo and partnered drills that are important to learn crucial techniques in ground fighting. For example, bear crawl partner drill (for the top game player) is to learn the double underhooks, sticking tight to the opponent, and try not to get head butt during the process, and most of all don't fall off. It is also a good conditioning drill for ground grappling function strength and endurance. We can also modify the drill into a buttertub roll drill so that the top game player (the one taking the back) isn't going to be easily crushed if the bottom guy uses rolling as a counter. BTW, rolling is very important ground skill which credit has not been dued.

2) Throws and takedown

Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has plenty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspects of fighting.

We should also learn takedown from the three ground positions as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

I should have said sweeps instead. From the ground positions, you literally are sweeping. As I have said before, throws and takedown combining with good breakfall and rolling skill will shorten the time to achieve submission holds; thus, giving the "kung fu feel".

3) Grappling Techniques

Mantis has plenty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of this, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

Chin Na, which consists of both stand up and ground grappling, isn't just about submission holds, chokes and knock out strikes. Many think of it in term of an end. Chin Na similar to throws and takedown is about flow. It has to be fluid. That's why ground grappling insisted on working the positions to understand the flow before adding in the finishing moves. Today, many people train Chin Na in terms of technique (finishing hold). That's why it became less and less effective against seasoned figthers especially grappler. When you understand the positional play, the finishing moves are everywhere. There certain important techniques that are very useful like the double underhooks, eblow to the mat (braced position), etc... Those need to be drilled to become second nature while on the ground.

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

Actually, escape is a bit reactive. It is more proactive to think in terms of offence even in a compromised situation. An offensive guard game is more valueable than holding a regular mount IMHO. By thinking escape you would be prolonging the fight and encourage the opponent to take you to the ground or whatever. So think in terms of improving your position not escape.

5) Finishing moves

This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

One move wonder in Kung Fu is not a bad thing. Personally, I would focus on 3 moves and make sure they transit well. So that submission is imminant. ;)

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allow you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

Personally, you can't think in terms of countering a grappler that means you are afraid of his skill. You have to be proactive at all times. This is the tough part. How to incite fear into a grappler? Now that's the question.

7) Climate training

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.

Mat time is drill time. That's the same with Shuai jiao, wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, etc... If Mantis Kung Fu wants to beat those, well.... mat time is key.

Mantis108

[MightyB]

So did we answer your question? :)

[mantis108]

Hi Puja,

I made a long reply and it got erased. [Freak'n GD laptop!]

Sorry, about that I will try to get back to you on that.

Hi Matt,

I have a clip of my student (the one in the storefight clip) doing the one form that I wasn't sure if it was GM Chiu's material. The way the form is designed is unmistakenly CCK TCPM just that it wasn't in the HK curriculum. Anyway, it is taken with sony digital camera. Because of the venue (a Karate open tournament), the angle of filming is not great but you should be able to see it. I send that file to Jochen before too. I will email over right away.

Warm regards

Robert

PS pressure point is used in mantis as well.

[sayloc]

Thanks for the rep!ies!

Yes you did answer my questions.

I would have to say that there is Grappling (throws hold downs and the such) in Mantis. I can pull it from the forms like many of you here have described.

I do have to say that there does not seem to be a systemized way of teaching throwing and grappling techniques in mantis.

Tainans system does sound close to what i am talking about. Did that come from the mantis or did he develp it?

I think that there is to much to learn about body mechanics for throwing and grappling than you can get by just pulling it out of a form.

I teach grappling the way I learned it in Judo. Very systemized and effeective.

I My first instructor taught a well rounded curriculum of the punch and kick stuff with the grappling. His theory was that you should be able to figure out your opponents preferred fighting style very fast. Then you should fight him in a way he is not comportable with. Dont know if that makes sense. I know, I know most fights should only last for 1 second. take it for what it is worth.

Thanks guys.

[mantis108]

As far as I know, Tainan Mantis (Kevin) doesn't do ground fighting with his mantis stuff. He could have done some ground grappling before too but there is no mixing or rather extanding of styles.

I on the other hand does it. The breakfall rountine that he showed me could have came from Judo if I am not mistaken. I recommend it because it is systematic and easy for others to relate to Judo training.

GM Chiu (CCK TCPM) in HK used to teach a different routine for breakfalling. It is preserved in his manuscript. There are certain details that aren't the same as Judo. It is in my view that Judo's breakfalling is better suit for ground fighting because it brings you into position naturally without compromising the structure too much.

Just to make things clearer.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

There are a few basic positions in say BJJ.

1. Guard (you are on your back and your opponent is between your legs/thighs but doesn’t control your hip)

2. Cross side or side control (you are on top of your opponent and you are facing down across his body using your weight to pin him (on his back) to the floor)

3. Mount (you are on top sitting near his hips)

4. Top rear mount (you have his back while he is on all four or on his stomach)

Hierarchy of positions means to understand which one is the worst situation and which one is the best position. From the list above and in the same order, the guard is the worst or inferior while the top rear mount is the best or superior. Having said that a skilled ground fighter could use the guard to his advantage and it could be very powerful as well. There are plenty more positions but that will come with experience. This awareness can be drilled.

Positions might sound foreign to Mantis but think of these as gates, doors or walls. If you are in someone’s guard that means you are right between his inside gates. This is easy to see the advantage that you have and the danger that he is having. He is literally offering it to you. If you decide to fight there and then, it is basically the ground and pound that most strikers in MMA events do. As long as you have a base and balance is secured, you may continue to do so as you pleased. A ground fighter, however, would attempt to pass the guard into say a cross side position. This is the improving of the position and so on so forth. Once a favorable position is acquired say mount then it is the focus to hold the position not getting sweep back to a less favorable position. Further attack can be introduced at this point.

Meanwhile Zhan Nian Bang Tie, Lai Jiao Shun Song, and Ti Na Feng Bi of Mantis can all be used. BTW, Gao Lu Cai go under Feng (actually feng and bi are very handy in a ground fighting situation). In fact, you could see Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo in the way an advanced grappling in passing the guard or while improving positions. Of course, the terminology don't exist in BJJ. Anyway, it is fancier and would not be used frequently during NHB events. These principles combined with the 8 shorts would become the most valuable assets that mantis bring to the mat. Of course, understanding the roles of hips, elbows, knees, chin, etc and how to capitalize them with leverage on the ground is a mantis stylist’s top priority when it comes to ground fighting. That will drastically improve the ground game. I hope that gradually people would understand that having a ground game in mantis is not far fatch and it needs not to further borrow concepts or principles from other arts (drills or techniques perhaps). The ground fighting training regime can also be incorporated into the regular mantis program without much modifications.

Hope this helps

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Robert, thanks for the clip. need more time to look at it.

to sum up, would you say that mantis does not inherantly have a codified method of ground grappling but that you could examine the existing methodology for things to adapt?

[mantis108]

to sum up, would you say that mantis does not inherantly have a codified method of ground grappling but that you could examine the existing methodology for things to adapt?

Excellently put. IMHO it would not be hard to come up with a ground oriented Mantis style/system if someone chooses to do it. :)

Warm regards

Robert

PS you are most welcome for the clip. Hope you'd enjoy it.

[puja]

Thanks for the very detailed explanation. Now I know what you meant by positions =) We met some grapplers on our last seminar, who were training at the same place. It was really interesting to see that it's not that far away from the principles and methodology we have in mantis. I think you're right, that it wouldn't be hard to adapt mantis to ground fighting with the existing

btw, could you perhaps send me that clip of the form, too? You should have my email from before I think.

Puja

[mantis7]

Hello All

Mantis or most gng fu systems do not have grappling in their orientations. When I say grappiling I am refering to the NHB movment, Bjj, American catch-as catch can wrestling, Grecco Roman. The closest thing I have seen to wrestling is Mogolian influenced as in shua jiao (sp?), Ditang ground boxing, chin na's throwing techniques and what we see in sanda now a days.

This is not to say that That these arts can not be modified to increase the ability of getting into the mounted range but in and of its self it is not the modern or better yet the current morph of reality nhb.

Ditang is alot of low ground tumbling, legs strkies, trips, sweeps and other little nasty goodies but you will not see any actual arms bars, rear naked chokes or so forth.

The Shuai Jiao people you will see throws strikes and all that nastiness. You will also see that weird needle type weapon used to finish off a downed opponent but you will not see any submission holds on the ground.

Chin na you will see the standing submissions, control holds, seazing the breathe technique and what have you but you will not see them go to the ground for a finisher.

The reason for this is based in the origins or influnetial components of any give martial art. Kung fu was created in order to defend but it was also developed along the lines of battle field combat. The idea of mass combatants on a field of war is to stay on your feet while defeating, staying alive, as many opponents as possible. If you went to the ground you would be stabed with a spear, a sword or trampled by horse. The indivdual field farmer would use gung fu to ward off mercs, thugs who often attacked en mass. Going to the ground was not an option.

Now ground grappling like the Native American, Greco-Roman and so on was developed to test ones mettle on a one to one basis.
There was no fear of being attacked while you were on your back. The matches often usually ended after you were thrown to the ground so even here you saw very little submission holds. I am also inclined to believe that the submissions used today were originally used to be breaks and not submissions. The person was taken down and their lines were destroyed and the one who applied this move would get up and move on.

I am not sure when the breaks actually became submission but I am sure it was influenced by competition and not by necessity.
In a real fight you do not want to submitt your opponent but to cripple them.

If your mantis cirriculum, mantis that is , contains the 72 throws, I think this is correct, and posses Chin na as well as Dit tang then you can go through a systematic manner in developing a well rounded ground fighting, with submission, grappling system with in mantis.

I would suggest, instead of that, is to study the Bjj system and learn the transitional movments of going from the standing/striking position to the ground mounted system. Then take that material and apply it to the already exsisting mantis locks, throws and what have you. Just because it exsist outside the system does not mean that it can not be adapted to a mantis system thus not changing Mnatis's true nature.

This is all a personal view but I think a fighter should be more worried about furthering their own complete all around skill and not worry to much about changing the system. IF the system is lacking something and posses a weak area improving it will only improve the system overall..

Cheers
Victor

[puja]

Originally posted by mantis7
Chin na you will see the standing submissions, control holds, seazing the breathe technique and what have you but you will not see them go to the ground for a finisher.

Sorry, but I have to correct you on that. I got this nice book of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming from YMAA which is called "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" from a friend and this Dr. Yang quite often finishes the move on the ground.
Btw, I haven't seen many books on this topic as good as this one. There's also a VCD available which I hope to get soon. I would recommend it to all who are interested in these kind of techniques.

Best regards,

Puja

[mantis7]

That is an excellent book! If I am not mistaken he does not finish many of his grounded opponents with thelikes of an arm bar or things of that nature. I could be wrong on this though.

Cheers
Victor

[puja]

Ya, you're right most of the finishing moves are some kind of armbars or sometimes throws.

[ninjaboy]

does mantis have groundfighting in their forms? great question. i look at it like this:

i hear many people say that techniques in forms are for a very specific purpose. i completely disagree. i think there is entirely too much reliance on the idea of 2-man sets to demonstrate the applications to the student. it's too easy and simplified to say to a student "this move is for this, and this move is for that"...i can think of multiple practical applications for every move in every form i know. it just depends on how you look at it. i place great weight on what i call "generic movement analysis". this is the idea that any move can be looked at in a variety of different ways depending on how you insert the opponent. for example, how does the application of a single move change depending on how the opponent is moving, attacking, defending, etcetera...?

having said that, when analysing moves in a form and whether they are applicable on the ground or not, i think it's important to change the context to an appropriate parallel. let's take oso's question:

" Shirkers1, can you describe for me a specific mantis technique to follow and control a downed opponent while rendering him incapable of doing further harm to you?"

my sifu calls it a "crouching" stance and many others refer to it as a "circle entering" stance but, regardless of what you call it, the effect is the same. i can't think of a form i know that doesn't have this position and i feel the posture itself can be viewed in a number of ways. it is highly mobile and allows you to move from a more upright stance to this one whereby the the femur of the rear leg approaches a more vertical nature fairly close to the ground. in a groundfighting application i would use this stance as i follow the opponent to the ground to control the opponent by pressing on them with the rear knee, either as a strike when i come in to range or as a pinning movement to prevent the use of whatever it was that i was pinning, maybe the arm, maybe the leg, whatever, or, both striking and pinning...from there, the close range neutralizing, trapping and striking abilities in our system, coupled with any chinna experience you may have should be able to keep you safe until you decide to retreat, escape or to do further damage.

that's one example. i have other examples too if anyone's interested. also, please let me know if have been unclear in any way. just my thoughts.....

be good

neil

[shirkers1]

Ninja boy

my thoughts exactly and it's what I was saying but my point wasn't getting across but I think you see in your head what I'm seeing. It's mantis theory and tactics on the ground, it's not going to be a brazilian jujitsu mount or whatever it's going to be mantis tactics plugged into the equation. Just because it's not a brazilian tactic doesn't mean that you aren't ground fighting.

[SevenStar]

that's exaclty it though, it's theory for most people. How many of the guys here actually apply them on the ground? and for those that do, how often do you do so against grapplers? When I was in longfist, we did some grappling - basics and such, but we were working on it ourselves, based off what we had seen and also trying to make standing techniques work on the ground. When I started bjj, it showed me that even our ground basics sucked. IMO, it's more efficient to just train a grappling style with mantis, or at least do some training with a grappler from time to time, so you can get some ground experience against someone familiar with the element.

I wouldn't look at apply bjj techniques to striking, nor would I try to apply the ground locks standing up - there is a set of standing locks we learn, and for striking, I would look to a different style. Why then, must everything from a cma be forced to stay within the confines of that cma? It doesn't make much sense to me.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by mantis7
Hello All
The Shuai Jiao people you will see throws strikes and all that nastiness. You will also see that weird needle type weapon used to finish off a downed opponent but you will not see any submission holds on the ground.


when Shuai jiao player goes for a throw, they are suppose to lock up one of the the opponent's arm. the throw is to be completed with the control maintained over the arm. after the throw, proceed to break the arm. no hold, just a big break. at least, this is one variation I have learn. If you choose not to break, it will be a submission hold.

A respected shuai jiao teacher explain one of the difference between bjj and shuai jiao: bjj takes the opponent to the ground and then look for the a lock. shuai jiao secure a lock before taking the opponent to the ground.

[MightyB]

"that's exaclty it though, it's theory for most people. How many of the guys here actually apply them on the ground? and for those that do, how often do you do so against grapplers? When I was in longfist, we did some grappling - basics and such, but we were working on it ourselves, based off what we had seen and also trying to make standing techniques work on the ground. When I started bjj, it showed me that even our ground basics sucked. IMO, it's more efficient to just train a grappling style with mantis, or at least do some training with a grappler from time to time, so you can get some ground experience against someone familiar with the element."

Amen!

Great Post Seven Star!

[shirkers1]

7 star

The style you train in is the style you should be using. There is too much cross breading of styles. Mantis has it's own way thinking moving etc. If you try to throw in another style it defeats the purpose. They have their own way of moving etc, you will have to adapt your body movements to fit that system. Now I’m not saying you can’t tweek hear and there. I have a back ground in american boxing so I’ve found I’ve added those puncing techneques into my mantis. Combined with the footwork and body movement making my strikes a lot more powerful, but it wasn’t a major change so it could be done with out comprimising the system itself.

Wing chun is very close to the trapping concepts as mantis but you can't just go to a wing chun class and pick up some wing chun drills and such and expect to meld it into your system. The body movements and such are different, although the concepts are the same. Just think about the guys who have trained in japanese styles for so long and come to mantis, it takes forever to train that rigid stiffness out of them because it’s drilled into them. But that’s the way they trained for their tactics to be done correctly. If you take these other styles and ad their tactics to your system it really never ads to your system because it is empty. Unless it is a minute change that is.

I hear to much of, oh I'm going to take some of this style and some of that style and I'll have all the bases covered. When the styles are so completely different in training and theory of movement etc. If that's what you want and the mantis you are training and have been taught isn't working for you then find a MIXED martial arts school and train there. Mantis if taught right covers the bases just fine and you can apply the theory and tactics in all ranges of fighting.

Yes mantis is stronger in a standing fighting position, but that doesn't mean that it's worthless on the ground.

Just my two cents and I’m sure no one will agree with me but that’s why you train where you train and I train where I train. I’m happy with where I’m at in my training and what I’ve been taught so far and I don't feel I need to look outside the system for major improvements.

mark

[SevenStar]

it's not a "some of this, some of that" issue, as you put it. It's a standup / ground issue. If we were saying "train tkd for foot speed, thai boxing for power, boxing for strikes, karate for power and wing chun for trapping" then I would agree with you, because they are all standup styles that all have different principles.

however, we are talking about standup work and ground work. bjj mechanics will not confuse your mantis ones - you are in two completely different elements.

being realistic, mantis ground grappling may not be completely worthless, but bjj, catch, etc. is much better. Why? because it's what they do. you are trying to use your principles to figure out how to do what they have been doing for eons.

some grappling schools will teach you knees, elbows, etc on the ground. Based on that, would it be feasible to attempt to create a standup striking system based on grappling ground striking? surely not.

[shirkers1]

Yeah and stand up fighting is what we do best so if we make the ground fighter play our game then he's out of "his" element. He must force you to the ground to be effective. We are effective on our feet and on the ground if need be. I've played around with ground fighters before and you know what? They don't get ahold of me or take me to the ground because I know that's what they want. Where does that leave them? In limbo getting tagged from every angle.

If it goes to the ground so be it. I'm not going to lay there like a red headed virgin waiting to be rooted. I will use my mantis to fight back, not some concept I picked up from watching UFC or read in a book. I'll do what I train to do, and that training is 7* praying mantis kung fu. Not brazilian jujitsu or mixed martial arts.

[MightyB]

Mantis Principle: Use soft to defeat hard.

In Judo, you must learn to relax--- yield against a rigid opponent--- when pulled, push--- when pushed, pull.

In other words--- use soft to defeat hard.

Cross training is good if you use it to strengthen your original style. It often helps to reenforce the concepts, and it can sometimes help to clarify a move or technique because it has a way of giving you a fresh new set of eyes to look at a situation.

[MightyB]

The Judoka have been using the Du Sau for years in their "kata" without knowing that they were doing it. For instance, one of their sets is to have their opponent throw a Pek Choi at their head, they receive it with a du sau using footwork that is similar to mantis to spin in and follow their opponents force throwing them with a shoulder throw.

[SevenStar]

yeah... you can see alot of cma principles in bjj and in thai boxing also. But they don't over theorize and rationalize every minute aspect of a technique, so they have no name for it - it's just part of the technique.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by shirkers1
Yeah and stand up fighting is what we do best so if we make the ground fighter play our game then he's out of "his" element. He must force you to the ground to be effective. We are effective on our feet and on the ground if need be. I've played around with ground fighters before and you know what? They don't get ahold of me or take me to the ground because I know that's what they want. Where does that leave them? In limbo getting tagged from every angle.

and this is why there is cross training.

If it goes to the ground so be it. I'm not going to lay there like a red headed virgin waiting to be rooted. I will use my mantis to fight back, not some concept I picked up from watching UFC or read in a book. I'll do what I train to do, and that training is 7* praying mantis kung fu. Not brazilian jujitsu or mixed martial arts.

I wouldn't expect you to just lay there. if you happen so be facing a grappler, or someone with a significant size advantage though, you may may be his red headed virgin regardless.