PDA

View Full Version : What does lineage means?



yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 07:18 AM
What does a lineage means?

A ritual?
A method?
A way of performance?
A way of training?
A different philosophy?
A family tree of a tribe?
A.... ?

PaulH
09-24-2004, 07:52 AM
Lineage : The progression path from a certain origin in time. A line of inevitable hobbyists and artists feeding and growing from the fame of a celebrity! =)

P.S.

The Good: A further refinement or improvement of skills/special abilities from the old timers.

The Bad: The black sheeps who have gone astray and seem to delight in embarrasing the good sheeps to no end.

The Ugly: Like an ugly swam among their brethren ducks, they just bide their time. There is hope!

Vajramusti
09-24-2004, 08:03 AM
Lineage: identifying who one has learned from or is learning from
and when followed right-respect for people who have taught.
Claiming a lineage and having a lineage are not the same things.
Also, no guarantee of quality control anywhere in the line.... more so with the coming of mass marketing..
There is the additional question- lineage in which art? Is an art-just a name?
Is sometimes a necessary but not sufficient marker of the possibility of some quality control in kung fu.
Greshams law- bad money drives out the good.

yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 10:42 AM
What is the job of a lineage holder?
what is the function of a lineage holder?
what is the qualification of a lineage holder?
Who can be a lineage holder?
what is the responsibility of a lineage holder?

Is a lineage holder a head of a tribe?
Is the lineage holder an abott of a temple?
Is the lineage holder the one with the mind seal?
Is the lineage holder the best fighter?
is the lineage holder the one goes out bring more stuffs into the lineage makes the lineage looks great eventhought those stuffs is not from the past?
Is the lineage holder ........


when is the lineage vanished?

Ernie
09-24-2004, 10:46 AM
What does a lineage means?

in the end --------------------------- nothing



lineage holder = ego/false pride holder of nothing

yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Ernie
What does a lineage means?

in the end --------------------------- nothing


that is the same with a name.

in the end.......................... vanishing and forgotten.

But then why name exist?

Ernie
09-24-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
that is the same with a name.

in the end.......................... vanishing and forgotten.

But then why name exist?

human weakness trying to be more then what one is , not accepting mortality , cycle of life all thngs die and are forgotten

yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by Ernie
human weakness trying to be more then what one is , not accepting mortality , cycle of life all thngs die and are forgotten


certainly, there are a big part to that. but then, there might be other great reasons too.

Ernie
09-24-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
certainly, there are a big part to that. but then, there might be other great reasons too.

no i'm sure i covered all bases when i said

lineage = nothing/ego/human weakness ;)


that's my final answer

yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 11:08 AM
lineage might have to do with a proven process of operation.
lineage holder is then the person who master every steps and outcome of the process.


Say, there is Soto Zen, they have a pracitice type. The making of lady lee cookies, they have a unique cookie making process. Starbuck coffee, they have a unique coffee making process.....


One with coffee and starbuck plastic cup doesnt mean has the same coffee making process of starbuck and doesnt limit to not blewing good coffee.


lineage is franchise of making centain things in a certain way?

Ernie
09-24-2004, 11:44 AM
still falls under false pride and ego

one would like to believe they have this or that ''unique'' way . and thus close there mind to all other ways and fight for there small place in time [ fear of being mortal ]

so the give it there family name and continue on with the illusion
for generations , minds stay closed and eyes get blinders


when if one just looks around you will see people from all over the world doing the same '' unique'' thing in one way or another


ego is a funny thing

it is so hard to let go of the need to feel special :D

PaulH
09-24-2004, 11:58 AM
Ego is just an identity and nothing to be ashamed of. Pride of being yourself is healthy and good. And that's why America loves a winner! And no, I'm not ashamed to admit this! =)

azwingchun
09-24-2004, 12:28 PM
Say, there is Soto Zen, they have a pracitice type. The making of lady lee cookies, they have a unique cookie making process. Starbuck coffee, they have a unique coffee making process.....

Could be in the beginning, but even yourself...you mention evolution of things. So with evolution does the true lineage (as you are speaking here) slowly die and become or grow into something new?!?!?!?!?!?!

Since we are on the product idea, even Pepsi changes and adds new flavor. What happens to the old Pepsi, is it not great any longer?

But seriously, I have my ideas on lineage.....one being to not give great merit to one just because he comes out of a great or well know lineage. Again, it is the student and not so much the lineage.

But at the same time (without naming names), I do give respect to the teachers in my lineage out of respect. I don't know if I would call it ritualistic, just pure respect. But at the same time, I am no longer with that lineage or any lineage to speak of, just as I prefer it! ;) But the respect for those before me is still there and passed on to my students.

I guess I look at it more as my background and the background of those to come through me, and not much more. Just my opinion anyway! ;)

By the way, lineage, when speaking to another Wing Chun practitioner , is or could be a great point of reference to understanding why or where this other person is coming from.

Vajramusti
09-24-2004, 02:14 PM
Ernie sez:

What does a lineage means?

in the end --------------------------- nothing
------------------------------------------------------------------
I enjoyed taking a good look at the latest IKF story on Gary Lam's use of po pai jeung. Me thinks lineage atleast in part made it possible.

Ernie
09-24-2004, 02:20 PM
how do you mean Joy !

because you are familer with the action since we have a shared training system

or something else ?

Vajramusti
09-24-2004, 04:26 PM
Ernie- the shared training sysstem is understandable because of some tacit knowledge of lineage.

There are several other sytems that have double palms but they get their power in an entirely different way.

A lineage is no guarantee of quality- but it can serve as a marker of possibilities- provided other variables are there- the creativeness of the practitioner, sustained practice, the ability of the teacher
and the depth of the art.

Lineage is overused these days often by folks who are unsure of themselves- but as in many things throwing the baby (the lineage) out with the bathwater can weaken what is passed out to the next generation IMO- no problem if we differ..
We may mean different things by lineage.

Ernie
09-24-2004, 04:59 PM
Joy
I agree about the lineage thing been way over used and when I see things like lineage holder , it sickens me way to much little emperor syndrome going on there
You are only as good as you are and at best a good coach can help you save a lot of wasted time .
If by lineage one is just saying well this my teacher and that is it , then fine
But if one some how thinks by linking their name in with a line of names it has any weight , sadly that person is mistaken .

A good training system is worth investigating , and by good that means there are people showing results across the board . a training system based on a family name means nothing . the name [ego] is no where near as important as getting results , who cares if you are linked by some invisible line and you have no skill . hell even being directly related to a skilled person and learning from them still guaranties nothing , what would and non related person except =)

Personally I only see body mechanics, there are only so many ways to generate power , no nations or lineages or family names , those things are just smoke and mirrors , either you are good , or have the capability to make some one good or not

The rest I leave for the kings of lip sau

i'm gone for a week rap with you more later

old jong
09-24-2004, 05:04 PM
Lineage is like "family" You get some things from your parents:Genetic,cultural,traditional,behavioral etc but you still are your own self.You are not a perfect copy of your "parents"
As we all know,there are good and bad sheeps in all families.;)

BTW,Think about the DNA molecule who was passed down to us from the beginning of life,from life forms to life forms,alive!...;)

JAFO
09-24-2004, 09:56 PM
I disagree with the idea that lineage is nothing or is next to nothing. It is no more than what it is, but is also certainly no less than what it is. While the power and potential of the individual can not and should not be discounted, the same should also be said for the foundations laid by those who have gone before. It would be sheer arrogance to assert that every skill, every theory, every application known to an individual had its origins in that individual; and that having benefitted, the individual carries no responsibility to anyone other than themself.

In honoring and respecting those who have gone before, we have an opportunity to honor and respect that part of ourselves to which their efforts have contributed. I am not diminished by showing respect to my Sifu and his lineage, but honored in proportion to those levels of respect I am able to demonstrate. I think where people start to diverge on this is when they confuse the Sifu as an individual with his/her efforts. The part of my Sifu and his lineage that specifically deserves my respect is the time and effort they have expended from which I benefit. To the extent that I have access to it and to the extent that I benefit. No more and no less. As with all relationships it's conditional and not guaranteed; and it had to be earned before I would recognize it and respond to it accordingly. However, having benefitted, I would be supremely ungrateful to "forget" from whence those benefits came.

The arrogance of the individual can be just as abused as the arrogance of the association. Maybe even easier, since there is no internal check and balance as there is with our associations with others. There is no virtue in arbitrarily discounting the efforts of those who have gone before simply because they are old and we are young. The personalities may deserve varying degrees of respect, but their efforts on our behalf should be above reproach. IMO.

Ernie
09-24-2004, 10:32 PM
JafoIt would be sheer arrogance to assert that every skill, every theory, every application known to an individual had its origins in that individual; ]]

i disagree it is always in the individual , the ability and drive and hard work can not be handed to them they must do it , every punch every step , no short cuts , to thinnk that some one gave it to you is dis respecting yourself

but

there are those that need such things , they need to believe in something greater then themselves

then there are those that don't

if that is being arrogant then i take it as a compliment

there are alot of sheep in this world it is much easier to be told something then to find it for yourself


persoanl growth far out wieghs any group orginiazation or lineage

to not walk on your own is lazy IMO but then i don't get tradtion in any way shape or form , just seems creepy to me

:rolleyes:

yellowpikachu
09-24-2004, 10:58 PM
The same person works as hard to learn how to make good coffee.

in one experience, one stays at home and keep making coffee.

in other experienxe, one goes and buy a francise with Starbuck coffee and learning from Starbuck, how to make coffee in ths Starbuck way and running coffee business in a Starbuck way.


which experience brought one into " making a decent coffee" and "running a coffee business" easier and faster?

As for making the best coffee, well, one has to travell around the world to experience all different coffees.

kj
09-25-2004, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by JAFO
While the power and potential of the individual can not and should not be discounted, the same should also be said for the foundations laid by those who have gone before.

Your post echos my senitments, JAFO. We have more than ourselves to remember and respect with thanks. Well expressed.

Regards,
- kj

Ernie
09-25-2004, 07:11 AM
pika -
which experience brought one into " making a decent coffee" and "running a coffee business" easier and faster?

--- business is business skill is skill it is sad when the 2 get mixed up ----- ego/greed


pika
As for making the best coffee, well, one has to travell around the world to experience all different coffees.


---- that's my point , but there is not best and there are just different flavors , one might be the master of dark another of light

these are just specialist , once people lay claim to this or that group the create walls to seperate and kill natural growth , thus the cookie cutter is born

wing chun is not a cookie cutter system to stuff into boxes and line them up all nice in a package just sucks the life out of it
your wing chun will not look like your teachers and so on , sure have respect for your teacher same as you would any other good person you share time with , if you develop a friendship with your teacher over the years and your training partners i could see that become family, and you training partners might range from many families ,


but i know people like to wrap themselves up in security blankets often created by others experience and take as there own

this is a emotional subject for people , they follow,believe and invest in a person/system other then themselves

and due to this emotional connection they will defend it tooth and nail , because of course they can't be wrong :D

never understood that

there are many skilled people in this world to limit yourself to a group never made sense to

maybe people just like to wear the matching shirts


;) ;)


but when human emotion gets involved often logic goes out the window , so better to stay out of this one
didn't mean to mess up your thread Pika

yellowpikachu
09-25-2004, 08:17 AM
didn't mean to mess up your thread Pika----


mess up is another part of siva's dance of develop. what is the problem?

democratic system comes with multi-political parties and embracing all voice.

exposion to different level of ideas from different people is nature. A teenager will not think and act the same way with a 40 years old. A 40 years old will not think and act the same way with a 14.

some act according to creativity, some act according to security...




-----------------------------------------------------------
pikachu is a happy yellow fur ball without the burden of the past and no expectation of the future.

Vajramusti
09-25-2004, 08:42 AM
yellowpicahu sez:

some act according to creativity, some act according to security...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Understanding lineage does not necessarily mean robotic imitation- justs as knowing the path from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Bohr does not make a good physicist a robot.

AmanuJRY
09-25-2004, 08:50 AM
Many have exhibited fair assesments of lineage on this thread so far, and it can be seen that this topic is a pinnicle for some and a sore spot for others. I like to seek the balance point of these kinds of issues.

Lineage IS the source of our learning, it had to come from somewhere, and it dictates the methodology of how we learn. Respect is due, in all branches, for those who laid the groundwork or have traveled the path before us, but where lineage becomes confounded is with where we are placing that reverance.

Some will directly credit their sifu, all good, your sifu is the one who you have the closest contact with, but is he/she the architect of the system?

Some will credit their sigung. It's less likely that you gain your personal instruction from this person, but he/she taught your sifu, right? The same question arises, are they the architect of the system you are studying?

Some will credit the ancestors. It's impossible that you have learned anything DIRECTLY from these people, but they taught the people who taught the people who taught your sifu, right? It is possible that they are the archtects of the system, right?

Truth is, information has traveled down certain avenues, through certain people, to you. That is all that lineage is, the course that the info took to reach you.

Along the way, that info has gained insight and has been added to by any of the above mentioned people. This is what forms the differences in lineage, the different perspectives.

When does lineage become a bad thing? When the individuals deny the perspective of others, stating that the branch they are standing on is the 'Only true branch' (much like one branch of a tree denying that there are other branches that also bear fruit). When, by identifying themselves with that branch (lineage holder), the individual limits their view and refuses to see the fruit borne by the other branches.

yellowpikachu
09-25-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Vajramusti


Understanding lineage does not necessarily mean robotic imitation- justs as knowing the path from Galileo to Newton to Einstein to Bohr does not make a good physicist a robot.


yup.

but as you know, sometimes some do get into those robotic mode.... but then in the world there are all kinds of human...

Ernie
09-25-2004, 01:29 PM
justin[Truth is, information has traveled down certain avenues, through certain people, to you. That is all that lineage is, the course that the info took to reach you.]


nice way to look at it
:)

a passing of information what one does with that information is based on the indivudual , just having it is not enough


like being given a seed inside that seed is everything , yet you still need to plant it and cultivate it

then there are others that just keep the seed in there pocket and they tell people about the seed


hmmmm just thinking out loud

sihing
09-25-2004, 03:13 PM
TO KNOW AND NOT DO IS NOT TO KNOW...

Lineage is a history of the information transferr from person to person, sometimes in the same family, sometimes not, but it is a connection to the past which is important, but if you are going to base your skill on what the lineage is of your Martial Art then you may be in for a surprise. It always comes back to the individual and what they have done with the knowledge they have gained and how well they understand it. Its all relative is you ask me..

James

Miles Teg
09-25-2004, 06:02 PM
GOod discussion

I look at lineage like a preferred method of training.



I hate it when schools or teachers advertise their lineage to new students though. "Sifu Nob learnt W.C from Grandmaster Ching. Grangmaster Ching was the only student to inherit the secret techniques from Yip Man". When I hear that crap I know its the wrong school for me.

todi laugin
09-28-2004, 06:00 PM
The purpose of linieage is to learn the root of your kung fu history,
to learn to know your kung fu ancecsters, how they added to the kung fu, how they subtracted from the kung fu, for you to learn a better kung fu to protect your lovedones and yourself.
Now , as you learn kung fu you too become apart of that history,
and as you learn and gaine insight you too will add or subract from the kung fu to make it better for the next geration.So study with the intent of making the kung fu better for all who you work with.

AmanuJRY
09-28-2004, 07:17 PM
The purpose of linieage is to learn the root of your kung fu history,...to learn to know your kung fu ancecsters, how they added to the kung fu, how they subtracted from the kung fu

The interesting thing is how people trace their lineage from themselves, back to the 'source' (whatever particular legened that is assosiated with their system). Rarely do they study from said 'source' back to present.

In doing this, and by todi laugin's statement, one would see that there are many (by this I mean 'a whole bunch of') people who have 'added' or 'subtracted' or 'enhanced' or 'preserved', WC.

yellowpikachu
09-28-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by AmanuJRY
The interesting thing is how people trace their lineage from themselves, back to the 'source' (whatever particular legened that is assosiated with their system). Rarely do they study from said 'source' back to present.

In doing this, and by todi laugin's statement, one would see that there are many (by this I mean 'a whole bunch of') people who have 'added' or 'subtracted' or 'enhanced' or 'preserved', WC.


Tracing where Wing Chun Kuen from should not be that difficult, although it does take some times and visting different places and people to gather information across china, other styles, and Study lots of Buddhism, Daoism teaching and terminology.


Localization Evolution is a fact which cannot be deny. Things were still pretty clear in the 70's since the old GMs from different lineages were still alive. Those old GMs practicing the Chinese Tradition where they stick to what the tradition.

as time moving away from the 70's where the old GMs passing away. His-story making is expected and might even go as far as no old generation GM will dare even to think.

AmanuJRY
09-28-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by yellowpikachu
Tracing where Wing Chun Kuen from is not that difficult, although it does take some times.

Tracing where WCK has gone is....:D

Chronos
09-28-2004, 08:59 PM
Hi Yellowpikachu,

May I call you Chewy? You know, like the wookie in Star Wars?

Originally posted by yellowpikachu
What does a lineage means?


That's a puzzle. Let's break the word down, shall we?

Li-
n. pl. li
A traditional Chinese measure of distance, today standardized at 500 meters (547 yards).

NE-Abbr. for Nebraska
A state of the central United States in the Great Plains. It was admitted as the 37th state in 1867. The region became part of the United States through the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 and was made a separate territory by the Kansas-Nebraska Act of 1854. Its present boundaries were established in 1861. Lincoln is the capital and Omaha the largest city. Population: 1,584,617.

age
n.
The length of time that one has existed; duration of life: 23 years of age.

Li-ne-age means that we measure ourselves by our distance and time away from Nebraska.

Thanks for another insight.

ÔÙ¼û

todi laugin
09-29-2004, 01:38 PM
Remember, who's kung fu are you training with? Are you training with shifu's kung fu or are you training with your kung fu? Shifu is there to guide you on the path to your own kung fu. Shifu is not there to fit you into his mold. Don't forget this as you train, Make it your own!!

YongChun
09-29-2004, 03:53 PM
Most people are 100% for their lineage and say their lineage is best until they switch and try another lineage.

AmanuJRY
09-30-2004, 07:51 AM
So true!

I've heard a lot of talk about 'our lineage is better' and 'they don't know how to use the technique we do' and usually it's coming from someone who hasn't even experienced the other branches.