Some questions on history

[SaekSan]

This question spawned while doing some research into the Chinese Nationalist era and specifically the “Golden Decade” of CMA (1928-1937). Please bear with the development of my question I’ll try to keep it brief.

The Whampoa Military Academy was established in 1924 and supposedly this is where the sport of “San Shou” was developed. Generals Chang Chih-chiang and Li Ching-lin promoted the concept of Kuoshu (Guoshu) and set up the 1928 Tournament that was possibly the first modern Chinese martial arts tournament. Several provincial schools were set-up with famous masters for the promulgation of Kuoshu. And in 1933 there was another tournament. In 1936 China sent a delegation to the Berlin Olympics and they eventually toured parts of Europe.

The Sino-Japanese War (1937-1945) broke out and the Central Kuoshu Institute kept moving around until the end of the war in 1945. The Chinese civil war resumed and intensified until the KMT (Kuo Ming Tang or Gou Ming Dang) retreated to Taiwan along with 2 million refugees in (1948-49). The Whampoa Military Academy was reopened in Taiwan (Kaohsiung) in 1950.

The First World Kuoshu Championship Tournament happened in October of 1975, they (International Chinese Kuoshu Federation)must have done quite a bit of regional (Asia) and international promotion for Kuoshu during those 25 years. So here’s the questions, does anyone have information about what happened to Kuoshu development in Taiwan between 1950 and 1975? Are there any sources for information on what happened to the Kuoshu program? Did the Whampoa Academy continue (in Taiwan) to develop the “sport” into what is the current Kuoshu format of fighting?.

I know that there were several teachers (mine included) that learned, taught and competed during that period but all I have are oral accounts and bits and pieces of info, nothing written. Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

[Robert Young]

SaekSan,

Let me see if this help.

> does anyone have information about what happened to
> Kuoshu development in Taiwan between 1950 and 1975. Is
> there any source for information on what happened to the
> Kuoshu program?
From what I saw, there was no program for teaching like Nan Jing Guo Shu Guan in 1928 established at that time. Most masters taught in their own ways. Although places like police academy and other government related academies taught martial art, there was no govenment established martial art school for public . Other other hand, there were lots of activities like performance and tounaments. There were program to train referees and coaches for the tournaments.

There is a book published in Taiwan, a document book records all the CMA activities in Taiwan. I don't remember the title. But, you can get it from the book stores in Taiwan.

In Taiwan, there were lots of tounaments then. The biggest ones were Tai(Taiwan) Gan(Hong Kong) Au (Macao) tounaments. Those were mostly held by Martial Art Association supported by Taiwan government.

The first Guo Shu department started around 1980, I'm quite sure exact time, by Wen Hua University, a private university. I think it is still the only university provides martial art program.

> Did the Whampoa Academy continue (in Taiwan) to develop
> the “sport” into what is the current Kuoshu format of fighting?.
I don't think WhamPoa Academy, (I guessyou are talking about the Army Academy started by Jian Kai-Siek), started so called "San Shou". Not in Taiwan for sure.

Anyway, in Taiwan, Lei Tai tournament has been there from 1950's and is still been held. But, today's Lei Tai tounaments are very Non-Chinese martial arts, at least not like what it used to be in 50's.

Cheers,

[SaekSan]

Thank you for your insight. Your reply sparked a few more questions, I hope you do not mind.

"Other other hand, there were lots of activities like performance and tounaments. There were program to train referees and coaches for the tournaments."

Who organized these activities? Was there a Kuoshu organization per se (similar to the current ICKF)?

I will look for such a book, thank you for this lead.

The Taiganau tourneys were the ones I heard of, is there any info on these events? Were they fought with the canvas gloves already or were they still using boxing gloves for those events?


Yes, WhamPoa a.k.a "Huangpu Military Academy" I beleive it's in Fengshan nowadays. The comment of developing "San Shou" should have been explained better. What I meant to say was that they supposedly developed a "sport method of fighting", I'm not sure of this statement as it was mentioned and I have not been able to check it as a fact but it did seem plausible.

"Anyway, in Taiwan, Lei Tai tournament has been there from 1950's and is still been held. But, today's Lei Tai tounaments are very Non-Chinese martial arts, at least not like what it used to be in 50's."

Would you be able to elaborate on this? I am quite curious to hear what your opinion is in regards to what Kuoshu was and what it's become.

Once again thank you for your input.

:)

[blooming lotus]

very cool question. Don't really have anything to add, but I can see where you're going with it and it's good to see other maers looking at the bigger picture.

cheers

[cerebus]

Yo, Blooming Armpits! If you don't have anything to add then STFU! What a moron. She doesn't have anything to add, she just wants to hear herself blab some more. :rolleyes:

[blooming lotus]

says he with the informative post :rolleyes:

Credit where due, I like to see that and don't mind saying.

take a breather , a couselling session ( on your post war / service reassimilation ) and peace

[Buddy]

Loomie sez:
"Credit where due, I like to see that and don't mind saying"

Don't mind? F'crissakes, you have a pathological NEED to say something. Why don't you just shut up unless you actually have something to add to the conversation? Oh right, my previous point.

[Robert Young]

SaekSan,

> Who organized these activities? Was there a Kuoshu
> organization per se (similar to the current ICKF)?
In Taiwan, there is a ZHong Hua Guo Shu Hui on the govenment
level which is the most authorative association. There is one on the province level called Taiwan Province Guo Shu Hui. Usually, every big city on every county has its own association, like Taipei Guo Shu hui. Mostly it was Zhong Hua Guo Shu Hui in charge of all the big events then. I used to live in Taipei, and I remember I went to those tournaments several times a year, at least one tournament from Taipei assoc., one from Taiwan assoc., one from Zhong Hua assoc.. Things got very quiet last few years though.

> The Taiganau tourneys were the ones I heard of, is there any
> info on these events?
The book I mentioned may have some information. There is another Chinese book, one of the series of three by Fu, Song-Nan, has some information about the tounament in 1955. It is called "Jian Hu Fu Zi Ching", it is very enjoyable book published last year. He is a Long Fist uncle of mine. The book mentioned about several most important masters at that time, including several Taiwanese southern martial arts masters. The people in that tournament were mostly traditional Chinese MA.

> Were they fought with the canvas gloves
> already or were they still using boxing gloves for those events?
They fought with canvas gloves without other protections.

> Would you be able to elaborate on this? I am quite curious to
> hear what your opinion is in regards to what Kuoshu was and
> what it's become.
Today, most people practicing traditional CMA don't attent the Lei Tai becuase of all the protection gears has to wear, and the rules that don't work for traditional CMA techiques. Most people in Lei Tai today are called "Buo Ji" people. They practice Ju do and some kicks from TaKwaenDo mostly. But, I have not seen those tounaments after I have lived in the states for 18 years. Things might have changed today, but "Buo Ji" guys usually got the titles and were more active in the fighting tounament in the 80's and 90's. They may still active today, but I'm not sure.

Hope this will help.

Cheer,

Hope this will help.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Buddy
Loomie sez:
"Credit where due, I like to see that and don't mind saying"

Don't mind? F'crissakes, you have a pathological NEED to say something. Why don't you just shut up unless you actually have something to add to the conversation? Oh right, my previous point.

and on that note re: the above post :rolleyes:

[SaekSan]

After reading your second reply I visited your website, it is very nice and informative.

Thank you for all of that information it is indeed very helpful and giving me a clearer image of that timeframe.

The term "Buo Ji" although I grasp the concept by your description I am not familiar with it, could you please translate it?

Taking into consideration your experience and knowledge in Taiwan I was wondering if you had any information on the following people:

- Lee Jen-shen (General in the KMT, taught in Taipei several styles including Bei Shao Lin Chuan Men).
- Ma Ching-biao (Bodyguard of General Lee and)
- Dr. Wu Chao-hsiang (Student of both of these masters and Pu Xue-kuan, moved to Brazil from Taiwan in the early 70's)

Dr. Wu was my teacher, he passed away in 2000, and since his passing I have been trying to gather more information about our style and it's past masters. Some people have been able to help me in the period prior to 1950. Unfortunately I have not had much luck during the Taiwan period of 1950 to 1970 other than oral accounts from my master and some of his colleagues.

Once again thank you for all your help.

[Robert Young]

SaekSan,

"Buo Ji" means fight. Around 70's, a group of people in Taiwan formed an association for it. One of the group from Buo Ji did very well in most of the touraments at that time. The people they trained were mostly retired marines with specialty in TaKeanDo. Taiwan military chose TaKaenDo for soldiers' martial art training. There was a special TKD training camp in marine for coaches. What they did was to teach those people throwing techniques, mostly JuDo. The guy who led the group was a Judo Champion I think. They combined kicks and throws together and did very well. They basically dominated most of the tounaments then.

I am not familiar with the names in your post, but Ma Ching-biao sound very familiar. I must have seen or heard the name somewhere. Could you tell me what you learned? the styles or the names of the forms. Those may help my memory. You can send me email if you like so we won't occupy too much of this forum.

Cheers,

[SaekSan]

I have sent you an e-mail.

thank you.