forms(1)/forms ALL

[flem]

i just read the thread below entitled (18) and i was wondering what you all thought or if you all ever thought about the reason behind forms.
it seems like everyone is eager to pick up this or that material as if it is a bonus, something to add onto their existing material. i have always believed that there is a hierchy of learning in that in every style basic material is mastered as the pupil moves on to greater accomplishment. but not only that, but the previous material is a building block that not only prepares the student to advance but also , upon advancement, interweaves the material. in the end the practitioner is left with a natural or automatic response to most if not all situations.
to me, learning a form outside of one's style slows the development of that practitioner. that is if they put time into the foriegn form.
of course you may say that it is complementary, but is it? i can see a past master or even one today for that matter picking up a single technique and putting in into a form. but to add an entire set from another style.
and if i am wrong here then why is it necessary to dedicate oneself to any particular teacher or style. why not just get the best set from each system.
i think somewhere along the way(recently) as martial art history goes, practitioners have gone off the path.
a little further, what about forms within the same style in a boad sense such a pm? learning forms from two different pm styles.do they complement or retard the practioner's progress?

[sayloc]

I agree basic forms are taught in a specific sequence for a reason. Once you get past the basic forms certain forms can be used for developing certain skills in a practitioner.

Certain body types are also better for suited for different forms.

This no big deal for an average student but an instructor should have enough material to teach everyone in society. Even if the instructor cannot do some of the more physical techniques anymore does not mean that he or she can not get the point accross. (There are many boxing coaches that would be beat severly by their student but can still teach them)

As far as learning forms from other systems that depends on the person. I am able to train 4 to 6 hours a day 5 times a week including chi kung, tai chi forms, and a little weight training. Then I go to my school to teach for the evening where i get to work the two man sets and fighting techniques. (I only train for two hours on sunday) So you can see I have a lot of time to spend on working new and old material.

A person who trains for a few hours a day 2 - 4 days a week may want to stick with just thier style.

As far as this watering down a system, I think that the mantis is the best watered down system I have seen since it has so many different styles combined at the beginning.

And there is the pong lai master from taiwan i here about who teaches many different styles of mantis. I dont think it has hurt him at all! If you get my point.


Hanve a good day!

[MightyB]

I used to have that "If I just learn that one new form then that's it baby--- I'll be invincible" attitude. I see that a lot of people have that attitude. Then one day I was like, man, there's too many darn forms.

[mantis7]

Forms are a funny creature. They record the movments and diffrent ways in combining them for an attack but at the same time they create methodology of passing on said techniques down through the ages. They are also a way in which any indivdual instructor to leave their mark on the system they trained so hard in thus keeping their name alive in the system.

If you were to remove all the forms and just teach the individual teachniques lik eit is done in boxing you would have a very short and abbrivieated system. This does not mean that the system is less effective just condensed. Its just like teaching a boxer the jab, cross or any combination of strikes.

The form itself just helps keep those techniques in a format that can be remebered eeasy just like a combination. It also display the proper flow of the movement. It gives the best suggestion as to the follow up move after any given technique.

Forms could be removed and the same results can be achieved by drilling combinations or two man drills.

Forms are indead the essence of the system but not in the way many people believe them to be. You learn the form rip it apart and drill the movements plain and simple.

If you notice after awhile the forms are just repititive movements with you learning maybe two or three new moves or a new manner in which to apply a certain technique.

If you were to learn a new technique and how to apply in in say 10 dffrent situations this would be tantamount to learning say 4 forms that shows the manuver in the 10 diffrent situations.

Amount of forms, variations to the forms like in large frame,/small frame all have there importance but dont get hung up on learning the new form. Worry more about looking at the individual movements and how they diffren from form to form.

All clans will have a certain amount of forms based on the techers favorite forms, those he believe offer the most information, the ones he added to the system to distinguish his family or the ones he added in order to fill any holes he may think are there.

Cheers
Victor