Mr. Pel and others

[mantis7]

i would like to point something out about real combat and sparring

Sparring is a good tool even if it is brought down to the kick boxing level. Sparring teaches timing, control, enhances endurance and other tools but it also creates bad habits just like any other training method that has to be rectifed by complementary training methods.

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Mr Pel quote from another thread on sparring

Finally, what we are discussing here are principals. If you want to know the physical details of how to train - becuase it's not good to say one method is bad but offer no suggestions of your own - then you are within your rights. But, it's also a waste of time to try to describe them over the internet. If you want to experience some of our training then please come to Shanghai and train with us. All are welcome
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Training explained over th einternet or letters can be explained and understood. With the advent of video footage your training methods and fighting preferneces can be easliy made into concrete information to back up all claims and clear up misunderstandings.

A well trained martial artist or fighter can be seen on video with little or no argument being made. If he/she is good then they are good.

So you can easily post your training or figting skill on tape for all to see who can not go to your school.

There is a saying here in the US but I will change it a bit

"Action talks and bull**** walks"

I dont mean to be rude or crasp but when I hear a Sifu say oh I cant explain that you have to feel it for yourself or a vidoe wont do me justice it makes the red flags go up! I have seen videos of myself when I was younger and I could see the skill level progression and I was able to point out where I was either having an off day or totaly sucked.

So now in blunt terms its either put up or shut up plain and simple.

Others put up their video's with good intentions. You should do the say since it seems you posses the Holy Mnatis grail


Cheers
Victor

[HouZiPiGu]

Pedants are never popular...but there's only so much butchery one can take.

I assume you've been writing for longer than you've been practicing martial arts. Does carelessness carry over from one arena into the other?

[loki]

"Sparring is a good tool even if it is brought down to the kick boxing level."

This is true as it pertains to the benefits you describe but one should not call it mantis. Why would one want to "bring their training down" to that level? The goal is to use the style one claims to train in so you want to move the level up not down.

[mantis7]

Well hello there loki :D

Well sometimes you need to move three steps backwards in order to take four steps forwar. It is easier to teach timing, concepts of distance of ranges and the like when dealing with kickboxing momvements in sparring then it is in classical mantis.

Its not about brininging oneself down but using all tools and methods to ones advantage.

Kickboxing, if you believe this or not, is part of mantis ie a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch. Know for Mantis methods in a sparring session this requires the person not wearing any gear and going full blast. If you are wearing gear and going light all you are doing is apply the core concepts of the systems and barely the techniques. This often leads to injuries when fighting like this and it is one of my perfered methods.

For beginner and the occasional practioner will not benifit from this type of training until they hae had sometime under their belt.

Would I call it mantis no I would not but I would call it a means to an end. Even classical mantis sparring where you are playing with friendly hands creates bad habits and a false sense of security.

This can be seen when some one applies a bung joy( sorry spelling) down pressing hand w/ a back fist and instead of cathing their desired target but instead get the top of the persons cranium. A person who is taught how to bob and weave, through kickboxing and boxing, learns how to move their head and take the blow on the hardest part of their head to make sure minimal damage is done. The person applying the back fist now may have an injured fist due to the impact. So when going with light friendly hands and this same event occurs a false senes of security occurs because the person was able to apply their technique but did not feel the real impact. So they think they applied the technique just because they were able to strike the person. Do you see what I am getting at :D

All things have a plus and minus side the practioner and the teacher must know this and supplement their training accordingly.

Cheers
Victor

[shirkers1]

Mantis 7

I had this problem on the grappling thread when I was trying to say that mantis can be adapted to ground fighting. The pricipals are there etc. But I couldn't get my point across, I can see myself doing it but for some reason couldn't explain it correctly in writing. Mantis 108 seemed to get it across for me though. Now if I had someone in front of me I could easily show them what I was talking about and no mis communication would occur. So I think that is what mr pel was trying to say.

Now that leaves us with, although it is modern times. Not all of us have the ability to post vids online. I'm pretty computer savy myself but I simply don't have the digital equipment at my disposal to transfer the material down to the pc, or knoweldge of being able to host it for all to see. So maybe mr pel doesn't have that option as well. :)


Also on your Bung choi, we practice it more on a side cutting angle striking towards the neck or jaw bone area. The nose is a great target but, just like you said if you have someone who is capable of moving correctly that small target will end up becoming a missed target for you. So the neck and jaw bone give you more chances of hitting a damaging target if there is movement. Now that's not to say we don't use a downward striking back fist but it's more of a ripping than power blow, raking the knuckles downward. Bridge lead hand, wedge underneath with back hand upward, pull with back hand and let the lead hand rip downward so on and so on.

[mantis7]

HouZiPiGu

Pedants are never popular...but there's only so much butchery one can take.

I assume you've been writing for longer than you've been practicing martial arts. Does carelessness carry over from one arena into the other?

Hou

My grammar skills represented here do not portray my editing skills when it comes to something important. When I have the time to respond it is quick and I do not have the time to grammar check or spell check. the question now is if I actually care and the answer is no not at all.

Does careless nesscarry over from one area to another lol

lol Would it surprise you if I told you I am a Grad school student who is working on their MA in British lit.. So please before posting something like that instead of adding something substantial please think twice.

My grammar in these post may not be on a Master thesis level or hell even of a comic book level but at least I have something of substance to say.

[loki]

Hello Vic,

"A means to end"... what did the founders of these styles use? Kickboxing? The means to the end is already incorporated into the system itself. There are levels and you go through them while adhering to the way the system is meant to be used. You can't teach kickboxing and claim to teach kung fu for two reasons. One-you are not a real kickboxer so what you're actually teaching is a watered down version of kickboxing and will not stand up against a person who actually trains in kickboxing fulltime. Two- The structure , energy, flavor, techniques, timing, defensive and offensive tactics, etc. are different so what you are doing is a diservice to the student because you divide their training. All this does is confuse them. How many kung fu practitioners haven't I heard saying that they wish they could really use their style. Many have left because of that reason. I think the arguement in favor of that type of training is a copout because most people that do train and fight that way never get out of that structure. Alot of teachers themselves fight this way. MY QUESTION IS..OKAY, YOU GOT YOUR TIMING, REFLEXES, DISTANCE, ENDURANCE, FOOTWORK, ETC. AND YOU'VE BEEN TRAINING IN KUNG FU FOR 20 YEARS RIGHT? WHEN ARE YOU FINALLY GOING TO TRANSFER WHAT YOU GOT FROM THE KICKBOXING PART OF YOUR TRAINING INTO YOUR KUNG FU? The realityof it is that it never happens. You see, we're not talking about beginners or intermediate level practitioners doing this. Heck, I used to fight that way also until my Sifu put a stop to it after my first sparring session in his class. We're talking about people who are considered advanced in the style. Teachers, who are passing the system down and are telling their students that you have to keep up with today's training methods because if you just stick to the style it's not good enough, hence, the style is not good enough. Hence, no confidence in the style you say you train in/teach.

A kick and a punch does not make mantis and I think that is obvious enough that I don't need to disect that one.

As for the bong choy to the head while the person is bobbing and weaving ? If you hit the person on the top of their head you deserve to get your hand broken. You use what is appropriate for the moment. If two people facing each other in a long range situation where the person has the ability to jump up and down and bob and weave and you come in with a bong choy, what do you think is going to happen? I think it's pretty safe to say it's not going to work.

Vic, in your first paragraph you say it's easier to teach certain things about fighting when you use kickboxing methods. Who said learning how to fight Kung Fu is easy? :D It takes hard work and you're wasting time when you are not actually trying to use the style and are instead kickboxing waiting for the day when it all becomes clear and you no you longer need to kickbox.

I have nothing against Kickboxing or any other style. I like them all. Just would like to see people using them ;)

Nice talking to you Vic, take care and e-mail me guy. Hope all is well with you.

Peace.

[mantis7]

Loki ...

When I say a means to an end I am saying using this methodology as a tool for training.

Qutoe: Loki
As for the bong choy to the head while the person is bobbing and weaving ? If you hit the person on the top of their head you deserve to get your hand broken. You use what is appropriate for the moment. If two people facing each other in a long range situation where the person has the ability to jump up and down and bob and weave and you come in with a bong choy, what do you think is going to happen? I think it's pretty safe to say it's not going to work.

This is not at long range. What I am speaking of is a close quaters fight. Boxers will do less bobbing and weaving at the longer range. I am speaking of say you are able to trap and downpress a jab and apply a bong choy. The boxer or person bobbs and you nail him on the top of his head.

as far as the energy and flow being diffrent i will agree with you there but along the same lines so does playing hands with equipment versus using mantis in a sparring session with no equipment.
What do we get usually in both is nothing but flailing hands.
Kickboxing or fighting using just kicks and punches be they mantis or what have you builds timing, judgement of distance and other attributes at a higer rate thean just playing flailing hands.

If done in a proper progression this methodology can be highly condusive to a persons training. Begginers using this method to get down how to apply kicks and punches before going on to trapping, tagging, throws or what have will help them understand the concepts I mentioned earlier.

I am not saying to boil down the mantis system to its basic elements and remove everything else I am saying use this ideaology in a constuctive manner. You are right in saying that many teachers get stuck in this mode and never break free to use their systems properly.

I am also saying that you have to learn to punch and kick way before you can apply a bung choy or any other technique and before you aer able to do that you have to beable to apply certain principles.

Quote: Loki
A means to end"... what did the founders of these styles use? Kickboxing?

Did they use kickboxing? Well if you boil any gung fu system down to its basis you will find the basic punch and kick... This is where all begginers start. Yes they added alot to their concepts and yes it has to be trained overall.

Kickboxing method teaches a student to take a blow and the other things I mentions.

Playing hands teaches hand eye coordination, trapping skill and other attributes.

These dffrent training methods, if done properly, could enhance each other but you are right in saying that most people can not apply the two together and get rid of their bad habits.


Quote: Loki
As for the bong choy to the head while the person is bobbing and weaving ? If you hit the person on the top of their head you deserve to get your hand broken. You use what is appropriate for the moment. If two people facing each other in a long range situation where the person has the ability to jump up and down and bob and weave and you come in with a bong choy, what do you think is going to happen? I think it's pretty safe to say it's not going to work.

Even if something is appropriate for the moment it does not mean it will turn out as planned. Remeber that you are facing a person and not a theoretical opponent that will react as you planned. At close range with bobbing and weaving the target becomes elusive and you may just be out of luck no matter how well you executed the technique. In close quaters a good boxer can dodge any given attack. Remeber Mike tyson when he was younger and applied the pee-a-boo boxing method taught to him by his coach? He was pratically chest to chest with his opponents and when they struck he was gone or they were grazing the top of his head.

Quote: Loki
Vic, in your first paragraph you say it's easier to teach certain things about fighting when you use kickboxing methods. Who said learning how to fight Kung Fu is easy? It takes hard work and you're wasting time when you are not actually trying to use the style and are instead kickboxing waiting for the day when it all becomes clear and you no you longer need to kickbox

You are rgith when saying Kung fu is never easy to learn. It is hard work big time but adapting the kickboxing methodology will help students and not hinder them if applied correctly to the mantis core. There is a big difference between playing hands lightly and getting smacked and backing up thinking hmm did my technique fully work since you tagged the other opponent. It is also diffrent when you get tagged full blown in the face when applying the tech and knowing that it didnt work because you got knoced sensless.

I understand what you are getting at loki. I am the type that I dont care if I get a borken nose when playing hands but then again before doing mantis I had boxing, kickboxing experience so I understood distance and that is why I am able to apply my Mantis against such fighters. Most mantis fighters will not learn this until they are in their mid to high level of training. How many Mantis fighters actually understand those concepts? How many Mantis fighters can apply their system with out it looking like a slap boxing match?

Sent you a email loki hope to here from you soon:D

Cheers
Victor

[loki]

Hey Vic,

Will respond to your e-mail soon.

"Even if something is appropriate for the moment it does not mean it will turn out as planned".

This is very true, so why use the bong choy analogy in the first place? If as Newton's law says, "anything that can go wrong will go wrong" applies to fighting then you can't use the bong choy to the top of the head scenario because it can or cannot happen. Your analogy becomes a self defeating arguement (law of non-contradiction and all that ;) )

What the mantis style does is supply you with a fair amount of laws of probabilities. It's as if you were to go from house to house and ask the person who answers the door what they would do if you threw a particular strike at them, or better yet as soon as they open the door don't say anything , just strike and then you record everyone's reactions. Obviously, this analogy is not a very realistic one but I think it helps to illustrate the point I'm trying to convey. It's a survey that has already been done for you. The survey says that 9 xs out of 10 a person will react to this particular strike in this manner. The forms that we practise were devised with these probalities in mind. The sequences were organized in a particular order on purpose, they didn't just take a bunch a moves and haphazardly put them into a form. They actually have/serve a purpose. That's why one shouldn't separate their training by doing forms but not using what is taught in the forms to fight.

Again, like you said , nothing is guaranteed in a fight. But your chances for a positive outcome are increased when you are making inFORMed decisions, just like anything else in life.

Take care.

[mantis7]

"you can't use the bong choy to the top of the head scenario because it can or cannot happen. Your analogy becomes a self defeating arguement (law of non-contradiction and all that )" Loki

I think its murphay's law... lol

Well not really self defeating arguement its more along the line of a what if senario but I can see where you think it is a defeatisit analogy.

"The sequences were organized in a particular order on purpose, they didn't just take a bunch a moves and haphazardly put them into a form." Loki

Ok that is true but its true for the time period developed. Do you think mantis needs to be some what adapted to deal with a jab, a wrestlers shoot or what have you. I know mantis is very adaptive in and of itself but its like saying standard calvary did not need to become mechinized (sp) due to technological advances. Everything under the sun has to evolve with the times. These systems are great , dont get me wrong, but just like those that died out; if they dont adapted they will die out as well. Im not saying that mantis will die out anytime soon but with new training ideaology, technology and other advances we should take advantage of these advents.

"Again, like you said , nothing is guaranteed in a fight. But your chances for a positive outcome are increased when you are making inFORMed decisions, just like anything else in life." Loki

Love the play on words but when making an inFORMED desision you have to contemplate all avenues.

Cheers
Victor

[loki]

We can go on with this indefinitely, don't u think?:D ;)

Peace

[mantis7]

actually I was thinking the same thing lol

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis7
i would like to point something out about real combat and sparring

Sparring is a good tool even if it is brought down to the kick boxing level. Sparring teaches timing, control, enhances endurance and other tools but it also creates bad habits just like any other training method that has to be rectifed by complementary training methods.


this is a good thought, however, my biggest pet peeve is the "revert to kickboxing" thing.

1. you can't bring yourself down to something you have never trained in. In muay thai, when we work applications and don't spar, are we reducing ourselves to kung fu?

2. why would you say "bring down", as if it's a lesser style. If you think it is, go fight a thai boxer.

3.sparring doesn't create bad habits - improper training does. blame that on the instructor of the student in question.

that said, you are absolutely correct about sparring being an invaluable tool.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by SevenStar
this is a good thought, however, my biggest pet peeve is the "revert to kickboxing" thing.

1. you can't bring yourself down to something you have never trained in. In muay thai, when we work applications and don't spar, are we reducing ourselves to kung fu?

2. why would you say "bring down", as if it's a lesser style. If you think it is, go fight a thai boxer.

3.sparring doesn't create bad habits - improper training does. blame that on the instructor of the student in question.

that said, you are absolutely correct about sparring being an invaluable tool.

"Kickboxing " is a misnomer. Not kickboxing the style, but kickboxing the TKD/point-sparring kind of thing.

[mantis7]

actually kickboxing the methodology. I.e focus mitt drills, ring work ( no it doesnt have to be in a ring), full contact fighting w/ protection just drilling kicks, punches, bag work lots of bag work.

combination training against an actual live and resisting opponent at med to full power( lol just with out gear)

Shadow boxing and no not like forms....
There is a actually diffrences here. Shadow boxing is dynamic muscle memory movement with no pre-arragned structure. Anyone can do forms ( I know not everyone can do them correctly) but I am refering to actually doing techniques with out having them strung togeterh for you ahead of time. If you try this you will notice that you will tend to use techniques that are either A) easy for you to pull off or B) moves you have trained more than others.

This also has the benifit of creating a high tolerance against muscle fatigue and other little nuiances.

lol well got to go have to study for exams ttyl all later.

Cheers
Victor