Joe Keit vs. shaolin monk? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Sow Choy

09-27-2004, 11:41 AM

Hi Shaolin...

It was in orlando at Wah lum's Tournament 2000...

I competed in hand form, short weapon, long weapon, open hand form and sparring...

i won 2 1st places which made me qualify for the Grand Champion Division...

What happened was we were all lined up at the end, i was limping from being hurt a bit from sparring, resprained my big toe...

When he lined up we thought he will be in the wushu division, but he said he was doin a traditional form... This lately is getting controversial, seems like alot of wushu is crossing over into traditional, but i am not gonna complain...

So, some others said..."hey, he is wushu", but they said he would do a traditional form...

I won only by a point or so... The judges said I had more power in the form, but still, alot of people were supportive & happy for me, since an american won, and a few people thought they were a bit snobby...

But it wasn't easy, i was gonna sit out that one, but after speaking with him... he wasn't very friendly, so I decided to go for it.

My sifu likes to promote that Grand Championship alot... and a student of ours produced the tapes, so I think the word defeat is funny, since its only forms... and no, they did not fight...

All the judges, there was 6-7, all were old traditional styles, so maybe if there were a few wushu judges, i would have lost. But whatever, it was not easy...

Joe

WanderingMonk

09-27-2004, 06:00 PM

Sow Choy

Your article in the KFM was awesome.

GARRA DE TIGRE

09-27-2004, 08:17 PM

hello joe

i got the tape of wah lum tournament 2000 and your performance of siu ping kuen is great !!! you deserve your first place including that prize bigger than you given for master wai hong ( fu jow pai ) and master chan pui ( wah lum ) .

here in my country happens the same with this shaolin forms they say is traditional , but have the word modern wushu written all over it . i have a tape of that shaolin enciclopedia when you can see praying mantis forms with high jumps and panther and crane forms with a lot of acrobatics .

where is the old and loved bak siu lum system ?

Sow Choy

09-27-2004, 10:03 PM

WM,

Thank you... I am glad you liked it.

Garra...

Thank you too, and thank you for your letter about ideas for new videos...

Also let me tell you... I have started a page or 2 on our website that will be sort of like a magazine, now the topic is basic stances. This will be a way to help our students at our school, or those who learn overseas about some basics, techniques, theory, etc...

Check it out, we call it CLF Insider...

I have tremendous respect for the wushu players, some are amazing. And I love how the players from Shaolin have more of a traditional flare... Great to see...

But still, I know people judge things differently, but I look at technique, how much is in a form... Example, i am not a big fan of the wushu version of double broadsword... Alot of flowers and quick spinning moves and poses.

Exciting to some, but there is room for everybody... Make a division for them, and most tournaments do...

But being a judge time to time... It becomes tough when the shaolin wushu people claim to be traditional, and then either A. they are judged poorly for being to flashy (they get mad or worse, their parents get mad) or B. they are judged with high scores and the students of traditional styles: Choy Lay Fut, Bak Siu Lum, Chin Woo, Southern Mantis, etc..., they get discouraged and stop competing or even worse... quit

So I just wish we could separate things to help push kung fu in the right direction, as well as push wushu in the right direction.

Now i hope we can start a new thread, and let this one go... i feel weird seeing my name on here...

Joe :cool:

Eddie

09-27-2004, 11:21 PM

Hey Joe,
how about next time you beat them (the monks) at their own forms? You told me you learned some Shaolin, and I know you can do it. Would like to hear what they have to say then.

I also got a copy of that tape from Garra and I agree your form was way better and much more technical than the shaolin guy (even though he moved like crazy).

Obviously I would take your side, but I do appreciate good kung fu when I see it (and that monk was also very good).

In that competition, those wah lum guys were awesome.

Shave your head ;) . I think you will look good in orange too :D
Ed ( I am half way there, havent had hair for years, now I just need the skill :) ).

brothernumber9

09-28-2004, 05:21 AM

Technically I wouldn't call that kid a monk. He was from one of the village schools I beleive that won the right to represent shaolin on that occassion, however of the contingent he came with most would agree he was the best of their bunch. He was pretty sharp but his "tradititional" form was a bit more flashy than what most traditional forms looked like. Nonetheless he was scored poorly partly due to his flashyness and his brashness.

The mens and womens traditional grandchampionships were good to watch. It was a huge tournament and those that won were good representatives of their Sifu and styles. I had a few gripes about some things but overall it was one of the more memorable tournaments I've been to. I was particularly happy to see my Sije win womens traditional grand. I hope another big tourney like that could happen again in the near future.

Sow Choy

09-28-2004, 08:03 AM

Hey Brother,

Your sijeh was so awesome!!! It is always a pleasure to see your school at a tournament, I was just in Seattle and really enjoyed seeing you guys there, even your kids are awesome... My regards to everybody, especially James whom I haven't seen since 2000 unfortunately.

Eddie,

My Shaolin is kindergarten level... lol So I would rather not. Some of my kf brothers were pushing me to do CLF's drunken form for the finals, but I wanted to keep it traditional. These days I am not very excited about that form.

What made me laugh was the applause the monk (kid) or whatever you wanna call him, was getting for just holding a stance... i spoke with some of the little kids, they were cute and nice, but at that moment i was tired of the "shaolin monks are cool" mentality...

I get more excited watching a good "Hung Gar" or "Hung Fut" master than a Shaolin Monk... But thats just my taste. I just hope more will be done to promote what we love so much... The Kung Fu famous for its time in the Ching Dynasty... The styles which are legendary for many reasons.

As far as being a monk... Many Monks in China are just government employees... So not to knock anyone, but I will always have my doubts, as I do with all religions...

I am very impressed with one school there at Shaolin however... "The Shaolin TV and Film Institute", the master is Shi Guolin's Kung Fu brother... So I hope to one day visit and learn from Shi Guolin as well...

You see, I really feel there is alot to learn from everybody, there is room for us all... But I really would like to see more done for the traditional technique oriented styles...

Joe

Shaolindynasty

09-28-2004, 09:59 AM

Interesting, My Sihing Phil said that CLF could look as exciting to people as wushu it's just that most of us traditional guys have bad rythem. Guess he's right

CLFNole

09-28-2004, 10:39 AM

CLF looks very good to the eye just as Hung Gar, Hung Fut and Jow Gar do. The difference is in the acrobatics and wild posing that wushu has not to mention the lack of any observable applications.

Tournaments in general have become to political and judging is a personal taste thing, so no one really wins like in an actual sporting event. Someone from a less flashy style might do perfect form however the form might not be pleasing to the eye and therefore results in a lower score to someone whose form might not have been as good but might have had some more difficult kicks and low stances (just an example).

Better trained judges that are impartial would help; however that will never happen. One should go to tournaments and do their best and feel good about what they did.

I totally agree with by kung fu bro Joe on this that wushu and "real traditional" kung fu should be separated. Styles that have added non-traditional wushu elements should change their forms to be traditional, be penalized or join the wushu ranks.

Peace.

Fu-Pow

09-28-2004, 10:52 AM

I totally agree with by kung fu bro Joe on this that wushu and "real traditional" kung fu should be separated. Styles that have added non-traditional wushu elements should change their forms to be traditional, be penalized or join the wushu ranks.

Peace. [/B]

However, when you try to identify elements that classify it as "wushu" you get people saying "but hey wait a minute there is a traditional style X which has that technique." It seems hard to classify what exactly makes Wushu.....Wushu. The problem is that they borrow from the traditional arts so it makes the distinction fuzzy. They borrow and they "Wushu-ize" it. What criteria could we use to penalize?

CLFNole

09-28-2004, 11:28 AM

To me its pretty easy to clarify what is traditional and what isn't. If a CLF or Hung Gar player jumps into a split, does a barrel roll or a butterfly kick, well guess what .... put on the pink pajamas and get into the wushu division. More and more I see students adding by themselves or pushed by their instructors to add flashy moves to make the form "look prettier", this only leads to more and more of a watering down effect to traditional kung fu. Each style generally has an ample amount of forms to choose from. Students should pick a few forms that both look good and are traditional and perfect them. No need to add more, I can see slight variations to stances but not wholesale changes.

It is harder with northern styles however they are generally separated from southern. A lot of the northern styles share similar kicking elements and some do splits. Not being a northern expert by any stretch of the imagination northern players should judge northern competitors and would be able to tell what is traditional and what is adding theatrics.

Peace.

Sow Choy

09-28-2004, 11:41 AM

Fu Pow,

1st of all, your mailbox is full, wanted to thank you again for Seattle... I am waiting for you to come here...

2nd...

I may be wrong... but i remember some tournaments which would list which styles could compete... Example: Traditional Southern Long (Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Lama, Hop Gar, etc...)

then another division... Other Traditional styles...

Because our brothers in the Short division deserve a fair shot too. They should compete against other Hakka or short handed styles which have similar foundations...

I would really hate to see Southern mantis adding butterfly kicks to compete against wah lum mantis... ya know???

To each his own...

But i for one love to see the traditional styles in full force... Seattle was a treat for me to see some really good Hung fut, Jow Ga, Hung ga, Chin woo and others...

With my example above I think everyone will be more happy, because as the old saying goes...

"Those who matter, don't mind and those that mind, don't matter...

I have lost alot won alot, and it don't matter, I just love kung fu... That feeling being out tre, the energy, those moments into the form... the adrenaline...e
So the trophy/ medal collectors will be happy, even if the divisions are smaller, cause it appears they are only after a medal anyway, thats fine... maybe one day they will understand what it really is all about...

It's nice to just look at all the styles without any prejudice and admire the skill, but like CLF Nole said ... there needs to be a standard in judging...

Joe

SifuX-HSK

09-28-2004, 03:07 PM

What's up MR. Keit,

can i have your autograph? you are becoming a super-hero.

naw, how's it going you big timer?! i just got back from Kansas doing a little seminar and filming footage for my dvd.

hey, there is something i would like your advice on, so i'll call you personally, later.

just stopped by to say hello to you.

frank

Sow Choy

09-28-2004, 03:30 PM

Hi Frank...

How was kansas? Give me a call, if you need my number I can email it to you.

And please... I am nobody special, just Joe Schmoe

SifuX-HSK

09-28-2004, 03:43 PM

hey joe, yes please email me the number at hungloonghsk@hotmail.com

thanks

frank,

oh kansas was cool. the weather was nice. i had fun.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2004, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by CLFNole
To me its pretty easy to clarify what is traditional and what isn't. If a CLF or Hung Gar player jumps into a split, does a barrel roll or a butterfly kick, well guess what .... put on the pink pajamas and get into the wushu division.

I see your point. However, I could point to various competitions where I have seen such moves. And here's the thing...I've even seen it from people within our own kung fu family (aka LKH) competing in so-called "traditional" forms. I'm not naming names but I think you know who I'm talking about.

It is harder with northern styles however they are generally separated from southern. A lot of the northern styles share similar kicking elements and some do splits. Not being a northern expert by any stretch of the imagination northern players should judge northern competitors and would be able to tell what is traditional and what is adding theatrics.

Peace.

Good point.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2004, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by Sow Choy
[B]Fu Pow,

1st of all, your mailbox is full, wanted to thank you again for Seattle... I am waiting for you to come here...

I cleared out a few messages, it should work now.

I may be wrong... but i remember some tournaments which would list which styles could compete... Example: Traditional Southern Long (Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Lama, Hop Gar, etc...)

then another division... Other Traditional styles...

Because our brothers in the Short division deserve a fair shot too. They should compete against other Hakka or short handed styles which have similar foundations...

I would really hate to see Southern mantis adding butterfly kicks to compete against wah lum mantis... ya know???

But that's just the thing. You almost HAVE TO "wush-ize" your art to compete and win. The judges aren't judging you on how well you do YOUR art, they're judging based on a lot of criteria that isn't art specific. When you have judges from lots of different arts then it becomes a question of "performance" and "difficulty." ie how much of a "showman" you are and the "difficulty" of your moves. Flashy moves get more points because they often carry higher "difficulty ratings." Its like the olympics where a gymnast gets higher points for a more difficult technique even if he did not execute it as well as the other gymnast. So if you want to win you almost have to "one up" your opponent by doing flashier moves.

If we had qualified judges in each division then this wouldn't be as much of an issue but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

This just points to the irrelevance of forms "competition" in terms of martial arts. A martial arts "form" is a training tool, not a performance piece. I mean you can make it that but then you're getting away from the original point of the form.

I'd much rather see a tournament where it was more of a forms "exhibition" followed by sparring, chi sau, etc. It would be a requirement that if you are going to showcase your form then you must demonstrate martial skill in some venue. This would make people keep it real and not get so acrobatic.

Ie you can walk the walk but can you apply what you do in the form?

Anyways, not to say I'm totally down on tournaments. There is value in preparing your form for public exhibition. And that's the attitude that you should really hold going into these things. That you are doing a form "exhibition" and you want to showcase your style in a positive way. Whether you win or lose is pretty much irrelevant to your martial skill.

Sow Choy

09-30-2004, 09:39 AM

Fu Pow,

Obviously we are not at the same tournaments...

Many of the tournaments I go to have the same judges, and these judges have become my personal friends. Many are hard working sifus who really love kung fu and are willing to to put in some time and work to make sure things do get done right.

In fact at Jimmy Wongs tournament in Dallas Texas, they mis Shaolin Wushu with traditional kung fu, the Shaolin people say it is traditional, and the tournament allows them in the traditional... So not to argue that point... we judge them on their execution.

So... when a Hung gar player does a strong and solid form, that person can and did win against the back flipping, splits and acrobatic form. When I see someone doing backflips, and I have to allow in our division, as I judge I will look at their flip and judge its technique which is usually sloppy anyway...

And if their form does lack technique, most of us judge it poorly.

So in fairness to the judges I know... We judge according to what you are presenting and its technique. In texas many of the shaolin kids did a warm-up form with absolutely no techniques at all... Just stretches and flips... Some were upset when a hung gar kid, a choy lay fut kid or even a southern mantis kid won 1st place... When we are faced with this dilema of wushu and kung fu mixed, and have no control, we judge how well they execute in their art...

I have no problem with a traditional person doing some wushu... Even i know alot, mainly because I was and have been a b-boy (Breakdance) since I was 10, and have a love for gymnastics, but put it in its place...

One thing is for sure, politics is the cancer for Chinese Martial Arts, and the ones who suffer are our students... So as a judge, and like my many friends who judge also, we do our best to keep traditional kung fu alive and well and
judge it the way it should be judged...

I am not qualified in my opinion to judge anything else, let alone do I feel great about judging in general...

But where I have been, I don't see wushu getting all the good treatment, in fact they get treated more unfairly when they enter traditional...

Just like every other thing in life, there are some who love the art, and some who love their ego... Some who love the competition... and some who love the shiny medals...lol

So, my advice to our wushu brothers is to compete in wushu to be judged correctly, you will not get a medal for flash in most traditional division, at least the ones i have seen...

Joe

brothernumber9

09-30-2004, 10:31 AM

Perhaps, in lieu of the continuing growth in shaolin schools, there should now be a separate shaolin (songshan) division in kung fu tournaments. In this division they could opt to have a few sub divisions one of which could be traditional shaolin.

Perhaps we are at a time when what is perceived as "traditional" is changing in definition. However I do agree with others who feel traditional southern styles are relatively easy to recognize and are generally without acrobatics or unnecessary and flambouyant (sp?) movement.

As for "monks" competing, hopefully people will become less caught up in the "shaolin monk" aura, to where they may be judged more objectively in competitions. Sometimes the judges become blinded by the "monk" aura and pre determine that because they are "monks" from China that they are surely gonna win. I remember at Taiji Legacy 2000 one of the "monks" compteting in men's advanced open weapons placed second behind his classmate, despite screwing up his double chain whip form twice and stopping halfway through the form and bowing out. But then again I guess I shouldn't let it bother me since I never complained when I did place, and they probably would treat their medals better than I do since half my medal became door knockers and paper weights.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2004, 11:37 AM

Personally, I don't think there is such thing as a "Shaolin" style. If the Shaolin temples (North and South) actually existed I think it is more likely that they taught a variety of different "styles" that came from a wide variety of sources ie village styles, military styles, taoist/buddhist meditation techniques. Much like they do today.

In other world Shaolin was nothing special other than a place where many different styles accumulated. I don't believe that this was ever unified into a somehow superior "Shaolin" system. It was not the "birthplace" of modern kung fu.

At the "Shaolin Temple" of today they teach a large curriculum of stuff that comes from a variety of sources.

Anyways, my point is that I think a better better tournament divisions would be:

-Northern Wai Jia Styles (Chang Quan, Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Ying Jow, Fan Zi Quan, Tai Tzu Quan, Tang Lang, etc, etc.)

- Southern Longfist External Styles (CLF, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Choy Ga, Hung Ga, Mok Ga, etc. )

- Southern Short Fist ( Wing Chun, Bak Hok, SPM, Lung Ying, etc)

- Northern Nei Jia Styles (Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Liu He Ba Fa, etc).

and everyone's favorite....

WUSHU!

Of course, to get enough qualified judges in any one category is gonna be difficult unless it is a monster tournament.

Sow Choy

09-30-2004, 12:09 PM

Fu Pow,

Exactly what I am thinking about the different divisions...

With the Shaolin thing...

It is kinda like Chin Woo, we all consider Chin Woo traditional... But it is a school that has alot of different styles housed in one place. I have seen Mantis, Eagle and even wushu performed by Chin Woo peeps, and they are really good...

But they enter in the correct divisions... Maybe the development of traditional Kung Fu in China and Hong Kong took different routes, but I have only seen in Texas "Shaolin" entering in traditional divisions.

I agree with B9, they should have a separate division for them or go into a Northern Traditional or wushu division to be judged fairly...

But now we go back to politics... A tournament promoter wants the majority happy, too many divisions means less competition, I don't know about you... but I like more people in my division... One time I had over 50 in my hand form division!!! NICE!!

Now, you are luck if you have 15-20...

Well... I hope that more of us..."The Next Generation" will get together and learn from the silly politics and try to do whats better for the students... But "hope" is not enough...

Joe

CLFNole

09-30-2004, 01:42 PM

Fu-Pow:

With the exception of demonstrations I can't say I have seen anyone within our branch that adds wushu to their forms. Maybe perhaps with the Drunken Form; however this set lends itself to some free-style sort to speak but not wushu.

Many of us changed endings slightly for asthetic purposes while still maintaining a traditional feel. One must have an open mind to certain things.

The hand sets are the hand sets you just have to do them with the right flow and feel in order for them to look good. Every sifu teaches with a different style (all kung fu not just our line) and thus students will resemble the sifu. Some sifu's have a knack for their style looking good and others do not, not that they are any less effective for fighting. Sifu (Lee Koon Hung) was one whose style looks good and is practical so we were fortunate.

Peace.

Fu-Pow

09-30-2004, 03:40 PM

Just for the record I wasn't talking about you Florida guys when I said "and I think you know who I'm talking about."

However, I have to ask.

Why would you guys want to add Wushu to your demonstrations?:confused:

Sow Choy

09-30-2004, 03:56 PM

Hey Fu-Pow,

We don't add wushu to our demos at all...

But we sometimes change the end or beginning of a form, and sometimes a few of us just combine different parts of the form together...

What happenes for us is... Especially during Chinese New Year, year after year, people do the same forms over and over... Not dissing tradition but I like to mix it up... I will freestyle sometimes or in the beginning of chain whip i throw an "L" kick I learned in Capoeira and then a butterfly kick then throw my whip... Or a 1 handed back flip after a hurricane kick, etc...

i do this because there are times when I am representing my school... and times when I am having fun for myself... Just like fighting, if you are thinking of your next move, thats when you get clocked, so when I do forms I like to be free of thought.

Plus GM Lee Koon Hung was a free styler too it seems... He liked to mix Ping Kuen and Won Hop Kuen (Shek Kin) together. I have seen some nice versions of that one.

Joe

Fu-Pow

09-30-2004, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Hey Fu-Pow,

We don't add wushu to our demos at all...

But we sometimes change the end or beginning of a form, and sometimes a few of us just combine different parts of the form together...

What happenes for us is... Especially during Chinese New Year, year after year, people do the same forms over and over... Not dissing tradition but I like to mix it up... I will freestyle sometimes or in the beginning of chain whip i throw an "L" kick I learned in Capoeira and then a butterfly kick then throw my whip... Or a 1 handed back flip after a hurricane kick, etc...

i do this because there are times when I am representing my school... and times when I am having fun for myself... Just like fighting, if you are thinking of your next move, thats when you get clocked, so when I do forms I like to be free of thought.

Plus GM Lee Koon Hung was a free styler too it seems... He liked to mix Ping Kuen and Won Hop Kuen (Shek Kin) together. I have seen some nice versions of that one.

Joe

Ok...sorry...miscommunication. Sifu Mak has a Won Hop kuen form of his own. It takes the best of Ping Kuen, Tuet Jin, Sup Ji, etc. into one form.

I have done my own Won Hop Kuen form also...but its usually on accident!;)