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YongChun
09-27-2004, 02:53 PM
About Those Useless Forms

From my perspective, a form is like a textbook. It is a subject of study. Each section of the form gives something to study. Starting with the first form, even the name of this form implies that the form has something to do with ideas. The ideas in the first form, although small, can be built upon to produce something that is very substantial for fighting. .

Taking the first form as an example, the subjects of study can include how to be very stable, rooted, relaxed and centered when dealing with a force that is intent on destroying us. How to punch and hit with power and to receive these kinds of forces is also a subject of study in the first form. This study can easily blossom into the full Thai boxing kind of training regime or for others, the development of Internal mechanisms to enhance the delivery and the acceptance of force. Someone good in the first form means someone that feels very solid, is very relaxed, and can hit like a truck. It doesn’t mean that they are just pretty to look at because they do the form in an artistic way. In this light, form work is directly related to the development of fighting attributes. It is even possible that Siu Lim Tao level work does not even involve doing the form at all but rather is a training method for the important attributes suggested by the form.

Taking the second form for example, this form, in some Wing Chun circles, is called Searching for the Bridge. Ultimately it can be looked upon as a study in how to close with an opponent and how to deal with an opponent trying to close with you. That’s the subject matter. The ideas developed from studying this form can go well beyond the mechanics presented in the form even to the extent of closing against BJJ, Thai boxing or anything else. Mastery of the Chum Kiu level material to me means that such a person is very good at closing and handling people trying to close. To a large degree the Chum Kiu relates to the development of mobile or active footwork while retaining all of the good attributes developed from the SLT level of study. Of course the form doesn’t stand alone but builds upon the foundation of the Siu Lim Tao. Chum Kiu attributes are further enhance by the study of other forms such as the Biu Gee, the Wooden Dummy and the weapons. Each of these provides other types of footwork and hand-foot coordination training.

In my opinion talk about there being a distinction between those people who do the forms and chi sau and others who really fight doesn’t make much sense. The form isn’t something where you mimic some dance like movements. It is a study of concepts needed for effective fighting which includes putting in the hard physical training.

When you get to the third level or Biu Gee/ Bill Jee form then that just adds some more subjects to the study including the delivery of other types of energy to recovering and countering even to locking and counter locking, sweeping and grappling. The third form, in some interpretations, can be a catch all to include anything useful for fighting that haven’t been adequately covered by the previous two in depth studies. In actuality the study of fighting isn’t really a segregated subject that can be split into parts. For fighting everything is needed. Sometimes you need something from SLT, sometimes from CK and sometimes from BJ. Ideally all of the pieces become highly integrated such that a Wing Chun fighter becomes less and less robotic looking over time.

When it comes to the pole and knife, it can be something just to enhance the hand and foot skills of a Wing Chun practitioner or it can be the start of a study in the principles and training methods required for weapons combat. There is of course no end to such a study as even the study of a single weapon can consume a lifetime if competitive fighting or even reality fighting is a goal.

To me the forms are just a particular focus in the study of Wing Chun. All studies can involve theory and lab work, which includes drills, Chi sau and sparring against fellow students or against students of other styles of combat. The intensity at which this is done depends on the goals of the practitioners and upon safety and legal considerations.

In conclusion I think doing a form is just a part of studying a form. It is the first step to build something into one’s muscle memory. Just doing a form is not the same as studying a form. In the Kung Fu arts that I am familiar with, sooner or later form work involves a study of the practical applications of the concepts of the form. Some arts do this sooner than other arts or some teachers introduce fighting sooner than others. Some use the sink or swim theory and throw the student into the water on day one while others take a more gradual approach. Some teachers have the opinion that worrying too soon about applications detracts from building the proper fighting attributes or at least may result in a more painful way for the student to learn fighting. Eventually both types of swimming approaches should result an ability to swim. Likewise different training approaches can result in the ability to fight.

anerlich
09-27-2004, 03:58 PM
Good job Ray.

Vajramusti
09-27-2004, 04:04 PM
Good post Ray.

When someone with a strong wing chun background wants to enter
a full contact sporting event- they should go into additional high gear with intense but properly paced training and 1. know the rules intimately. 2. train for the right conditions- number of rounds, duration, right and most efficient weight and contact work. 3. focus on being mentally prepared.

Wing chun people have entered full contact matches in Asia.
But it is important to have a solid wing chun training background to be called a wing chun fighter.

Others who are interested in self development, knowing the art and self defense for unexpected encounters will probably not train in the same way as folks entering sporting events.

But both groups can have wing chun foundation work down pat....
that includes forms and chi sao IMO. Little individualized details do matter.

One size doesnt fit all.

I was reading an interview with Kostya Tszyu -the superb Russian/Australian junior welterweight boxer. Many boxers develop fragile hands and injure them. Kostya has his own unique training methods. While of course he spars and runs etc- he also uses the kung fu handballs for his hand ligament strength and uses herbs. In contrast Mayweather and others often hurt their hands. Kostya also falls back on his Russian background and uses kettle bells for early buildup work.
((gotta go without proofreading- sorry)

anerlich
09-27-2004, 05:10 PM
Kostya Tszyu trains FIENDISHLY hard for his fights. He has some amazing attributes.

He does about 500 pushups at a stretch, including jumping from his fists onto the back of his wrists, pushups there, and back up again onto his fists in pushup position (don't try this at home without major preparatory work, kids) trillions of situps and similar ab calisthenics. If you see him up close his forearm development makes him look like he almost has an extra muscle like a little bicep on the ulnar side, and his abs seem to have been developed to such a degree that they come up over his solar plexus and tenth eleventh and twelfth ribs.

And he says boxing is 90% mental - though his physical is about 600% of most MAists totality.

A long time KF teacher here, Lawrence Lee, advertises his iron palm medicine with Kostya as has primary endorser.

Vajramusti
09-27-2004, 05:23 PM
FWIW I met Kostya and his father when they were here in Phoenix ti fight the great Chavez who was over the hill.

He can punch very straight ahead when he wants to in a very focussed way. I knew about the jow.

Old time boxers toughened their hands in a variety of ways- vinegar, brine etc.

I know KOstya trains hard- Andrew Williams was impressed with his routine... but he is absolutely correct about the role of the mind -cant go walkabout as Goolagomg used to say.

yellowpikachu
09-27-2004, 08:58 PM
Thus, I have heard.

Siu Lim Tau is very deep.

it is not an equalvalent to any other southern Chinese martial art form because it is unique interm of Momentum and Jing (power issuing) not to mention the medirian flows.

Eventhought occationally, now and then, there are people from different style trying to make equavalent their set to the Wing Chun Siu Lim Tau by "importing" a certain Wing Chun shape into their form or making a certain claim, with an agenda range from " I have it too to Wing Chun Kuen is my art's derivation. "none ever succed. This is because there are certain things they never understand about Wing Chun Kuen.


The best way to make sure the Wing Chun Kuen did not get rip off is to share and educate the junior WCners in public what is the key components in different level of design and training....

GM similar to TST is a true master of SLT set. GM TST has a book written about SLT which is very precious.

Thus, I have heard.

Vajramusti
09-28-2004, 07:12 AM
Yellowpikachu sez:

Thus, I have heard.

Siu Lim Tau is very deep.

it is not an equalvalent to any other southern Chinese martial art form because it is unique interm of Momentum and Jing (power issuing) not to mention the medirian flows.

((I think that you have heard well))


The best way to make sure the Wing Chun Kuen did not get rip off is to share and educate the junior WCners in public what is the key components in different level of design and training....

((Difficult to do in the midst of much noise))

GM similar to TST is a true master of SLT set. GM TST has a book written about SLT which is very precious.


((GMs are GMS just to their own families. TST is a good source but there are others))