All fights end up on the ground?

[Shadow Skill]

when you say all fights eventually end up on the ground, do you mean that the fight will end up looking like some sort of high school wresteling match? Or are you saying that at the end of the fight someone will end up counting stars? Due to personal experience I've come to believe that if both fighters end up on the groung it's because A... they cant fight. or B... they want to be on th groung. But, standing or groung fighting if these aspects are included in your style wouldn't you still be fighting your fight?

[yellowpikachu]

1, fight can end above the ground
2, fight can end up on the ground
3, FIGHT CAN GOING DOWN TO THE GROUND AND MOVE UP TO ABOVE THE GROUND.
4, FIGHT CAN GOIND DOWN TO THE GROUND AND MOVE UP TO ABOVE GROUND AND DOWN TO THE GROUND.....

All sort of possibilities.....



Going down to the ground Doesnt means the end of the fight, Right?

Why let others brain wash one's mind to believe in a certain things? and let that belive handling oneself ?

Saying that doesnt mean there is no issue one needs to face and solve about facing ground fighting.

But, if the mind is believing " end on ground " is the way or resisting the believe with anger or trying to force a solution or in strong denial, then one has already being trap in the believe.


So, first, break through that belive or Anti belive anger due to fear of it ( fear of unknow, fear of failure.....fear of lost....) with observation what really happen; get some fresh "air" for the mind, then face and solve the issues if any exist.

Living in Now, not in the mercy of others' speculation.
only when one's mind is free from negative believe, fear, negative prediction/projection...which is all future projection related;

then one can live freely to face and solve what needs to be solved in the way it needs to be done.

The ancestor of Wing Chun Said " comes, accept; goes, let it be." using the AWARENESS, not that believe, future speculating/projection, thinker, that is the path way to freedom. A top secret of Wing Chun hide openly in front of everyone's eyes.
pressure comes from losing the AWARENESS and trap in the Thoughts of thinker busying projecting and speculating what might happen in the future, Anger comes from in denial of the past. Chi Sau train one to see thought those speculation and projection and denial without control by them and ----- to live in NOW.



As in the daily life,
if one belive the fortune telling that today one will fall. one will in a great chance fall due to one make it so to fulfill the self profecy.(sp?)


If one read the daily horoscope website and believe in it. then that horoscope website is going to control one's life.
Because one belive it.

belive is a "short cut " it by passed all the metal process to arive at execution.

So, is it about the kick of Muay Thai, the choke of Grapper, and every a few decades new stuffs comes up? or is it about how to handling one self and then solve what one will face?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shadow Skill
when you say all fights eventually end up on the ground, do you mean that the fight will end up looking like some sort of high school wresteling match?

1. step out of the 90's - alot of fights do end up on the ground, but not 90%, as they used to say.

2. shadow skill was a decent anime. As an aside, before my caption read "hitokiri battousai", it said "shadow skill - shadows kill"


Or are you saying that at the end of the fight someone will end up counting stars?

no.

Due to personal experience I've come to believe that if both fighters end up on the groung it's because A... they cant fight. or B... they want to be on th groung.

due to personal experience, I've come to believe that there are WAY more factors than that. For example,

1. there are multiple attackers and you get knocked down.
2. you slip on clothes, a puddle, etc. and fall
3. he slips and drags you down with him.
4. you said THEY want to be on the ground. Not necessarily... what if HE wants you on the ground? you may not be able to stop him from taking you there.


But, standing or groung fighting if these aspects are included in your style wouldn't you still be fighting your fight?


Not if you suck at it. "your fight" isn't necessarily style based. It's based on what you do best.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yellowpikachu

As in the daily life,
if one belive the fortune telling that today one will fall. one will in a great chance fall due to one make it so to fulfill the self profecy.(sp?)


If one read the daily horoscope website and believe in it. then that horoscope website is going to control one's life.
Because one belive it.

there is a difference between false fate and tangible technique. If you believe in the horoscope, it's false fate can control you. If I hit you in the face, it will hurt, regardless of whether or not you believe it. You can't really liken the two...


So, is it about the kick of Muay Thai, the choke of Grapper, and every a few decades new stuffs comes up? or is it about how to handling one self and then solve what one will face?


Do you not think that knowing how to deal with such techniques is part of "handling yourself"? I think the past 10 years has been an excellent indication that you will most likely be taken to the ground by a grappler if he wants you there and you don't know how to defend against grapplers. This doesn't mean that you have to go train bjj, but IMO, "handling yourself" definitely involves knowing how to deal with it.

[anerlich]

Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.

My favorite saying about statistics is:

"Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination."

Various "studies" conducted by martial artists have led to widely varying conclusions about the likelihood of fights hitting the floor, with an almost amazing correlation between the study's "proven" most likely outcome and the range or phase of combat in which the "investigator"'s MA style purportedly excels.

A sensible MAist will train for and explore all possible eventualities, and avoid obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities.

[yellowpikachu]

there is a difference between false fate and tangible technique. If you believe in the horoscope, it's false fate can control you. If I hit you in the face, it will hurt, regardless of whether or not you believe it. You can't really liken the two... ------ S




You must have missed a part of what I have posted above.


Saying that doesnt mean there is no issue one needs to face and solve about facing ground fighting.

[Grond]

My fights tend to end up underground.

[SevenStar]

nah, I read that part. I addressed the portion I wanted to address.

[Tydive]

SS,

As YellowPikachu pointed out, being aware of your situation will allow you to avoid going to the ground or even getting in the fight in the first place. Being confident in your skills will let you move in such a way that you do not look like a good victum to predators. Having positive energy will make negative people avoid you.

If you don't want people to be able to take you to the ground then you need to have very good footwork and be able to quickly break grips. One way to break grips is to break the fingers gripping you (Mr Pinky meets back of Mr Wrist is very effective). In my experience people can only grapple with you if you are unwilling to maim them.

[YongChun]

If you are the more skillful of the two fighters then you can decide to end the fight standing up or on the ground. The less skillful fighter's choices are dicated by the guy with more skill. Before the Gracies there wasn't too much talk of most fights ending up in grappling on the ground. Since people didn't have this mindset then they probably tried to punch each other out. But now that people have this BJJ, MMA and WWF mindset, then more fights probably do end up on the ground.

The modern trend is to learn both striking and grappling. A guy that starts martial arts young can easily learn both. Five years of training put into each is plenty of good quality time. I would train grappling first and hitting next. Maybe BJJ, then Thai Boxing, then Filipino stick and knife fighting and then some formal Asian martial art or sticking to one of the previous three, is a good progression to cover all the bases.

[t_niehoff]

anerlich wrote:

Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.

My favorite saying about statistics is:

"Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination."

**Or as Mark Twain wrote, "There are liars, **** liars, and statisticians."

-------------------

YongChun wrote:

If you are the more skillful of the two fighters then you can decide to end the fight standing up or on the ground. The less skillful fighter's choices are dicated by the guy with more skill.

**It's not that simple. As we are bipedal (and need to work to maintain standing), it is more difficult (takes more skill) to maintain our balance and not get taken down than it is to take someone down. This is why it is very frequent (who really knows the exact percentage?) to end up on the ground.

---------------------

**The advice I would give anyone with questions about the need for groundfighting is just go out and fight (at MMA academies, muay thai gyms, kyokushinkai schools, NHB gyms, whatever) or just get together with as many "friends" as possible, put on some gear and mix it up -- do nothing for a couple of months but fight with as many different types of people and styles as possible. You'll then have the experience to determine for yourself whether you need it or not (and to answer a whole host of questions).

Regards,

Terence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**The advice I would give anyone with questions about the need for groundfighting is just go out and fight (at MMA academies, muay thai gyms, kyokushinkai schools, NHB gyms, whatever) or just get together with as many "friends" as possible, put on some gear and mix it up -- do nothing for a couple of months but fight with as many different types of people and styles as possible. You'll then have the experience to determine for yourself whether you need it or not (and to answer a whole host of questions).

It can also raise a few questions too. -Such as;

"Why did I spend so much time and energy in the past avoiding doing this just to protect my ego?" :confused:

Hmmm.......

Maybe letting my ego take a few bumps and bruises is one of the best things for me. (Keeps me from getting a little TOO full of $hit....) ;)

-Lawrence

[Tom Kagan]

Originally posted by anerlich
Sevenstar was correct in that the original statistic espoused was that 90% of fights end up on the ground.

My favorite saying about statistics is:

"Statistics are like a lamppost to a drunken man - more for support than illumination."

Various "studies" conducted by martial artists have led to widely varying conclusions about the likelihood of fights hitting the floor, with an almost amazing correlation between the study's "proven" most likely outcome and the range or phase of combat in which the "investigator"'s MA style purportedly excels.

Statististions certainly have their issues. However, in this case, the fault lies not in the stats, but in ourselves. :)

http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm



Originally posted by anerlich
A sensible MAist will train for and explore all possible eventualities, and avoid obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities.


I understand your point of view. However, to "train for and explore all possible eventualities" is actually "obsession, wishful thinking and denial about the many possibilities" of life outside the MoKwoon ;)

I feel it is better for a sensible Martial Artist to just be honest, enjoy what they are doing, and let life take its all too easily derailed course no matter where their practice may lead.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Question for all those who are reading this thread:

What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you've ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground?

[hunt1]

Victor, I gave this some thought. Had to take a trip in the way back machine too. Since I learned WC have only been in one fight.
In my younger days was in a few. Had my nose broken 7 times,broken jaw. 70 stiches to the head,broken cheekbone,several broken ribs and some other bumps. Was never put on the ground. Where I grew up going to the ground was almost a death sentence. If going to the ground includes one man falling and the other stomping kicking etc or jumping on him and pounding till pulled off then better than 50%. If going there via intention then maybe 20%. Guys that could wrestle would try to take you down if fighting on grass. If on concrete or in allys etc with debris they would only go for takedowns if they were getting hit to much while standing. I would imagine that now that more people grapple going to the ground intentionally or trying to would be about 50% now.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Question for all those who are reading this thread:

What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you've ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground?

In my experience of all the fights I have seen or heard about from students who have gotten into fights or from police, correctional officers and bouncers that I have spoken with (former students) all fights were finished by punchout. The guy that got punched was on the ground. I have never heard from these stories that someone took a fight to the ground to make a guy submit or to break his arm.

Even in domestic disputes it mostly involves hits to the head or stabbings or shootings. So the most useful practice from my point of view is in the hitting arts and weapons arts.

Ground fighting is fun too as that's all I did when I was a kid.

Mostly attacks in the newspapers here are multiple opponent fights , stabbings or shooting. I think Wing Chun agumented with some Escrima/Arnis is good combo for that. Other Kung Fu styles also have their methods but they take much longer to learn. I am not a WT practitioner but I think WT has a reasonable mix of stuff that they do since they combine many kinds of fighting elements while staying within the Wing Chun framework.

If 90% of fights don't end up on the ground that still doesn't imply that the grapplers, Judo people, Aikido etc. are wasting their time. They have methods to deal with strikers and strikers have method to deal with grapplers.

[Tydive]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Question for all those who are reading this thread:

What percentage of real fights (not organized events) that you've ever witnessed/engaged in DID NOT go to the ground?
Going back in time...

As a bouncer I never ended up on the ground, however most of the people I was dealing with ended up in some form of submission hold braced against an object (wall, table, floor, car, etc...). So 100% upright.

When the drunks or frat boys got to fight each other I would say it was close to 20% that stayed upright.

As a street fighter I can only recall one fight where I ended up on the ground, but that was after I took a baseball bat to the back so I don't think it counts in this regard. I have seen many others go to the ground because one of them thought it was a good idea. I would say 50% stayed standing.

I grew up in Hawaii and being a beenpole howlie fought pretty much every day (back in the '70's, anybody else remember "kill howlie day"?). I would say 90% of those fights went to the ground until about second grade, by that time I had enough training (formal and informal) to keep it from happening. Wresteling with someone twice your strength and weight while his buddies kick you can do amazing things for your determination to stay upright.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by YongChun
In my experience of all the fights I have seen or heard about from students who have gotten into fights or from police, correctional officers and bouncers that I have spoken with (former students) all fights were finished by punchout. The guy that got punched was on the ground. I have never heard from these stories that someone took a fight to the ground to make a guy submit or to break his arm.

Even in domestic disputes it mostly involves hits to the head or stabbings or shootings. So the most useful practice from my point of view is in the hitting arts and weapons arts.

there's another side to that coin as well - if you are working security, you may not be allowed to hit them. I was allowed to restrain, but was not permitted to hit them.

Mostly attacks in the newspapers here are multiple opponent fights , stabbings or shooting.

in recent years (in my city) I've witnesses less multiple attacker situations and more one on one. In one situation I was involved in, a guy was mugging a paperboy. his friends were in the car, but they didn't get out - they let it remain one on one. When I ran up, the guy jumped in the car and ran off - they coulda all jumped out and tried to stomp me, but didn't.

On the news, I've heard about less stabbings as well, but there have been far more shootings.


If 90% of fights don't end up on the ground that still doesn't imply that the grapplers, Judo people, Aikido etc. are wasting their time. They have methods to deal with strikers and strikers have method to deal with grapplers.


From a self defense standpoint, if you do end up on the ground for some reason or another, who is most able to get up more efficiently, the grappler or the standup guy? also, what if you are on the ground in a multiple attacker situation? There are things I think of as a grappler that a striker may not. For example, a guy drags me down. He's in my guard trying to punch me and his buddies are coming to help. Ideally, I want to sweep him and get up, but I don't have time. What now? use the guy as a shield. pull him into my guard, wrapping him tight. Now, my back is against the ground, my head is tucked and he is covering the front of my body. I am now less likely to sustain damage to major organs as they are shielded. From there, pick your moment to continue the sweep and get up (that's the hard part).

Another thing that people tend to forget is that in an altercation, the grappler wants to remain standing also. As you stated, our methods for dealing with a striker are different. (assuming I have no striking experience) I don't want to strike. I will close on you, eating your space so that you can't strike either. From there, throws and takedowns are the name of the game.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tydive
SS,

As YellowPikachu pointed out, being aware of your situation will allow you to avoid going to the ground or even getting in the fight in the first place.

that's not completely true. The majority of the guys I knew growing up that were involved in fights were wrestlers. If a grappler wants you on the ground, you don't have much of a choice, unless you are proficient in takedown defenses - the result of cross training or "cross playing" as anerlich says.

Being confident in your skills will let you move in such a way that you do not look like a good victum to predators. Having positive energy will make negative people avoid you.

not really. There are several skilled people who are just plain shy. these people will always look like victims despite the fact that they are skilled.

If you don't want people to be able to take you to the ground then you need to have very good footwork and be able to quickly break grips.

those are a help, but not all it takes.

One way to break grips is to break the fingers gripping you (Mr Pinky meets back of Mr Wrist is very effective). In my experience people can only grapple with you if you are unwilling to maim them.

it's not that simple either. from more of a judoka's grip, my hands are burined in your clothing and closed tight. you'll likely be thrown before you break my grip and then break my finger.

from a bjj or wrestling perspective, I don't chase limbs, so my digits aren't wrapped around your wrist waiting for you to break them. I am over and underhooking - not using my hands at all, really - and can take you down without use of the hands.

[Tydive]

that's not completely true...
It's just a good start. I am cross trained so maybe I am missing the point. From my perspective your job is to keep the person from being in a position to take you down in the first place.

those are a help, but not all it takes.
I agree, grapple defense is a pretty complex art and I don't have the knowledge to fully describe it. I can do it fairly well but I still have memories of Kevin Osano tossing me around at will. Some people I just don't stand a chance against no matter what I do.

from a bjj or wrestling perspective, I don't chase limbs, so my digits aren't wrapped around your wrist waiting for you to break them. I am over and underhooking - not using my hands at all, really - and can take you down without use of the hands.

My bet is you could down me in less time than it takes me to blink. If you lift my center it's down we go. So we are back to mobility etc...

The finger example is pretty weak I guess, but I can break the arm or leg the attacker is hooking with etc... There is always some way to defend against an attack (even if that defense is to attack into the preperation). Bottom line is that if you don't cross train and get realistic experience then you are pretty likely to get owned.

In other words, I agree with you. My answers were not complete, nor were they intended to be. Perhaps you could outline for us some of the things that make for good defense against a determined grappler.

edit: oh, and the SS in my earlier post was for Shadow Skill, but I like your answers :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Tydive

In other words, I agree with you. My answers were not complete, nor were they intended to be. Perhaps you could outline for us some of the things that make for good defense against a determined grappler.

a few things - you have to be comfortable with the sprawl. If you can't sprawl, you will end up on your back more often than not. After the sprawl, you can circle while striking, strike, then circle, etc. Another thing is to keep him defensive. the shot requires forward motion. If you have him backpedalling or at least on the defensive, he will have trouble shooting in. Watch your kicks - no matter how low they are, kicks give him a bridge to use to enter and take you down. hide the kick with your strikes - use punches to set up the kick, then blast him.

These things are easier said than done, however. I was helping one of our guys get ready for his last mma fight, and as a drill, we had "roles" I could only do strikes, he could only do takedowns. His goal was to get me down. I stayed up for a few of the engagements, but more often than not, I got dumped on my butt.

edit: oh, and the SS in my earlier post was for Shadow Skill, but I like your answers :)

Oops! :D

[Tydive]

7*

Thanks for the reply. Great point about a grappler using the kick as a bridge, same can be done with a strike if you leave it out there. I think a lot of people get into the bad habit of not being fast enough on the recoil or over extending the strike.


I was helping one of our guys get ready for his last mma fight,
Now here is my question for you... Assume this was a life or death kind of fight. If you were fighting the same guy outside the ring and decided to keep the "striker only rule" what would you do differently than in the ring?

[Ultimatewingchun]

Some very interesting replies since I asked the question about how many fights don't go to the ground...

I agree that many good fighters don't really want to go to the ground in a real streetfight - too risky...and so I especially don't buy the idea that "hiding" behind the man on top of you while holding him in your guard if his friends are coming can work for you...on my back is the very last place I'd ever want to be in such a situation.

Good points made about using strikes to set up low kicks - I agree that is the safest way to deliver kicks without paying the price - and good grapplers will make you pay by following a kick back in on you if you throw it at the wrong time.

Knowing how to sprawl and remain fighting on your feet was also another very good point made...such an important move to know if involved in real street confrontations...

Which is not to say that good grapplers can't take down good fighters if they really want to - quite often they can and will...and the point that someone made about going for throws and takedowns (without necessarily going to a groundfight) is also a good one...

throws and sweeps - followed by a little ground and pound/head stomping, etc. are very effective fight-enders.

All that said - I still believe in the importance of knowing how to grapple while on the ground - because the possibility always exists that you could find yourself there.

Striking, kicking and grappling is the name of the game - though going to an all-out groundfight (while in a street situation) should be a last resort, imo.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Since many people who posted so far on this thread seem to think (myself included) that going into an all out grappling on-the-ground fight should be a last resort in a streetfight...then why is it that so many (just about every) fight in Pride and UFC go to the ground?

Lack of anti-takedown training?

Lack of high quality standup striking/kicking skills?

No fear of the opponent's friends coming into the fight?

Lack of skills in knowing how to escape from the bottom when being held down?

All of the above?

or some other reason?

[old jong]

They like it down there?...;)

[YongChun]

It's safer and more comfortable and less risky to fight on the ground getting choked out than to risk getting your head knocked off in a standup fight. Their hitting skills are not good enough. Would you rather wrestle around with Royce Gracie on a rubber mat or have Tyson trying to punch your head off?

[Shadow Skill]

ty
I aggree with your earlier comment that people are unwilling to maim an attacker. I'm a firm believer in causing harm to someone who tries to grab. I tend to attack the throat, eyes, or dig a phoenix eye in to any body part I can reach...It will make some loosen a grip.

[Vajramusti]

Shadow skill-

just curious- who have you learned jook lum from and for how long?

[KFD]

Since many people who posted so far on this thread seem to think (myself included) that going into an all out grappling on-the-ground fight should be a last resort in a streetfight...then why is it that so many (just about every) fight in Pride and UFC go to the ground?

in the UFC, it's a power thing.
they fight with the mindset that the biggest, fastest, strongest man in the ring will make it out, and the natural human tendency is to tense up, throw down on the ground, try and just pound the other guy into hamburger. they have plenty of stand up striking but it is a sport. they want to just have that feeling of power when on the ground pummeling their opponent, and they dont have to worry about their surroundings.
for instance, I live in AZ. i think wrestling is really dumb here because that'd be on 100 F concrete/asphalt. that would burn your skin right off. also, they dont need to worry about the guys friends getting into the fight

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Since many people who posted so far on this thread seem to think (myself included) that going into an all out grappling on-the-ground fight should be a last resort in a streetfight...then why is it that so many (just about every) fight in Pride and UFC go to the ground?I don't agree that you never want to go to the ground in a streetfight. There are a variety of times you mignt want to take the fight down if you know what you are doing there.

As far as why so many fights in MMA go to the ground, there are several reasons for that:
- Wrestlers who specialize in takedowns and ground and pound. It is almost impossible to stop an elite wrestler from getting a takedown.
- Groundfighters who specialize in fighting there and are comfortable bringing the fight to the ground, either with a takedown, sweep, or just pulling guard.
- One fighter getting pummelled who then goes into the clinch to avoid further damage.
- One or both fighters getting tired and using the ground to get a recovery.
- One figthter who knows his opponent is stronger at the striking game but weaker on the ground and uses this as a strategic advantage..
- For those who don't want to be on the ground in the first place, lake of takedown defense and ability to get back to the feet (although these are both hard to pull off against someone who is very skilled at takedowns and keeping the fight on the ground).

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Knowing how to sprawl and remain fighting on your feet was also another very good point made...such an important move to know if involved in real street confrontations... I'm also not a big fan of the sprawl on the street if your concern is multiple opponents. A spawl leaves you tied-up, relatively immobile and committed to defending the shoot while being spread out. If the opponent has any takedown skills at all he will continue to work to suck in the legs and you will have to continue to battle with the sprawl, ****zer and head control, all the while leaving your back undefended against other opponents.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by KFD
.for instance, I live in AZ. i think wrestling is really dumb here because that'd be on 100 F concrete/asphalt. that would burn your skin right off.And who is the one who will have his back pushing into the burning asphalt with his head being slammed into the pavement? The one who gets taken down. For the one who does the takedown, this can be an excellent strategy.

As far as takedowns against multiple opponents, a suplex, hip throw, or double leg lift/slam can be great ways to make it one less person very fast.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Another thing is to keep him defensive. the shot requires forward motion. If you have him backpedalling or at least on the defensive, he will have trouble shooting in. I agree with SevenStar on most things, but not this. My experience in wrestling/takedowns is that the best time to get the takedown is when your opponent is being offensive.

[YongChun]

In one movie fight I saw as a kid, it didn't end up on the ground. This Arabian bad guy runs through the door and closes the door quickly. The good guy throws this sword through the door and impales the bad guy. The next scene shows the door swinging open with the guy impaled.

[old jong]

:D ;)

[Vajramusti]

But but--- the door was connected to the ground and the bad guy very likely- eventually ended up on the ground or under it.
Except for the flotsam and jetsam in space things end up on the ground somewhere.

[anerlich]

You're right Ray, same thing in Enter The Dragon when Bruce impales Han on the spear in the mirror maze.

Of course Bruce finished the fight with the first guy in the temple on the ground with a lovely crucifix variation.

[Miles Teg]

Yep, Bruce was a bit ahead of his time with that move.

[old jong]

James Bond killed many bad guys in a weightless environment in "Moonraker" and we all know that there are no real ground or cieling in zero gravity!...So we know that fights can go in orbit sometimes!...;)

[Vajramusti]

Yes we need a new art to fit the times.
What time is it? As time goes by.
Good bye wing chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I'm a firm believer in causing harm to someone who tries to grab. I tend to attack the throat, eyes, or dig a phoenix eye in to any body part I can reach...It will make some loosen a grip."

I agree with this 100 %.

When he attempts to grab - striking at vulnerable targets, in conjunction with a fall-back
sprawl/w hizzer/head control, etc. anti-grab and anti-takedown strategy is the way to go on the street...

although I also agree that in certain instances a takedown or throw on the street can work to one's advantage (ie. - no chance of his friends coming to his aid and/or he goes to the hot pavement and you either remain standing or you land on top)...

As far as the sprawl tying you up for his friends to take advantage...

Better to know the sprawl in a street situation than not know it...because after not allowing yourself to be grabbed at all - the sprawl is still the next best thing to use against the grab and takedown artist - even if you are at risk of getting entangled/caught up with him...since the alternative is to immediately go down to the ground...

and if his friends are around and/or the terrain is forbidding - on the ground is not where I'd like to be if I can avoid it.