Tournament Reminder

[martyg]

This is just a reminder to anyone able to travel to Chicago -

I'm running the wing chun portion of the International Golden Eagle Martial Arts Tournament and Expo (www.goldeneaglemartialarts.com (http://www.goldeneaglemartialarts.com)). November 12th-14th at the O'hare Holiday Inn.

We will be using the chi sao competition rules developed by Steve Cottrell Sifu (www.authentickungfu.com (http://www.authentickungfu.com)) and used successfully at the Great Lakes tournament for the last 4 or so years for those that are familiar. Rules are available on the GEMA website listed above.

This is another general call out to all practitioners to attend, as well as for any sifu to come help judge.

Look forward to seeing you there!


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[YongChun]

Where are those rules on that website?

[martyg]

Hi Ray, they're right there on the main page. Scroll down half way to the section "G.E.M.A. Tournament & Exposition 2004 Forms" and you'll see the pdf file entitled "Wing Chun Chi Sao Competitive Guide".


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[YongChun]

Thanks Marty. I was looking at the Steve Cotrell site and didn't read the post carefully enough.

Those rules look more decent then the rules used in a 1980's Chi sau competition I went to in Vancouver. At that tournament the two competitors start rolling , then one of the judges blows a whistle and bam someone gets hit on the side of their head protection. This went on for three times. So whoever was quicker at the draw won. This method showed very little Wing Chun and was totally boring to watch and useless for training. But it was a start to learn from I suppose. Preying Mantis competed together with Wing Chun in this event.

The highest number of competitors was in the Tai Chi push hands competition. It seemed like everyone was entering that because it was save and all you needed to do was to push your partner which anyone without any sort of training could do. Again rules were a problem in this event too and very little Tai Chi skill was shown in that event.

In the free style competition, the Hung style club from Seattle did very well. Those guys rushed in very fast and hit with good power, speed and form. At a previous tournament the Preying Mantis people cleaned up.

[martyg]

Originally posted by YongChun
Thanks Marty. I was looking at the Steve Cotrell site and didn't read the post carefully enough.

Those rules look more decent then the rules used in a 1980's Chi sau competition I went to in Vancouver. At that tournament the two competitors start rolling , then one of the judges blows a whistle and bam someone gets hit on the side of their head protection. This went on for three times. So whoever was quicker at the draw won. This method showed very little Wing Chun and was totally boring to watch and useless for training. But it was a start to learn from I suppose.


Yes, I think you sent me that competition on one of the tapes you sent me way back when. Kinda turned me off to competitions.

One of the reasons I decided to go with these rules is because it cut out those kind of quick draw starts. Steve took a lot of care in developing it to allow for stylistic differences (both in the practitioners and in the judges). It tries to focus on clear demonstration of your skills in a manner for everyone to be able to judge with out forcing you to adapt to a specific style of chi sao or wing chun. Whether you like to leak and run a lot to get your hits in or seek to control root/posture/etc. to hit you have your opportunity to clearly demonstrate your methods across all three specific rounds. Overall performance is what's judged on, not "points". So for a leaker who may not have as much to do in the just "defense" round, they can make up for it in the offense round, and the freestyle round. Same with someone who cares more about uprooting/balance control etc and may not care about a barage of punches - the "offensive" round might be their weaker but the defensive and freestyle give them a chance to shine.




Preying Mantis competed together with Wing Chun in this event.


As you can see from Steve's site, he's a Mantis sifu as well (Brendan Lai Sifu's linneage) and that's one of his pet peaves. Northern mantis generally doesn't "stick" and use the bridge in the same way - it's more touch and go. That's why he built the rule in.



The highest number of competitors was in the Tai Chi push hands competition. It seemed like everyone was entering that because it was save and all you needed to do was to push your partner which anyone without any sort of training could do. Again rules were a problem in this event too and very little Tai Chi skill was shown in that event.


Well, that happens in the chi sao as well where some people will focus on just pushing the person or driving them out of the defined competition area (often with little regard to how many hits they take on the way). The best way to even it up for both sides in that situation is what is done in the rules - being forced out of the ring doesn't count for anything other than having to start over again. Likewise being hit doesn't count in a point mannter. It's the overall performance. So if all you can do is shove and push and fall short in other skills during the rounds it will show. Likewise if all you can do is a barrage of hits but continually get pushed around, that will effect your overall evaluation as well.



In the free style competition, the Hung style club from Seattle did very well. Those guys rushed in very fast and hit with good power, speed and form. At a previous tournament the Preying Mantis people cleaned up.

Well, we're interested in the finite spectrum of judging wing chun bridging skills (establishing, playing with and dominating) rather than sparring per se (there full contact and semi-contact continuous competitions there for that). Some people are against chi sao competitions because Chi sao is of course, just a developmental/exploratory drill. Their view is how can you "compete" in a two person drill, you should just go in to regular sparring/fighting competitions. My view is in the case of chi sao competitions (specifically this one), it's simply using the mechanism of chi sao as a starting point or comvenient environment to isolate this aspect of wing chun skill. You're not competing in "chi sao" per se (a drill) but rather using the platform as a starting point to isolate and demonstrate the skills developed from said drill to make it easyer to judge. It's a bit harder to judge in free form san sao application or sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all.

By the way, how about contributing an article to Wing Chun Tea House? ;)


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[t_niehoff]

martyg wrote:

Some people are against chi sao competitions because Chi sao is of course, just a developmental/exploratory drill. Their view is how can you "compete" in a two person drill, you should just go in to regular sparring/fighting competitions.

**Also because being able to do something in the confines of a cooperative drill (even if random) does not translate to being able to actually do it in a fighting environment (just like being able to do something in a form doesn't mean you can do it in a drill or fighting). Moreover, lots of things one can develop in the game of chi sao -- that will work well within the confines of that game -- are actually counterproductive to developing fighting skill. So, one can "win" the game but do so by having reinforced poor fighting traits.

My view is in the case of chi sao competitions (specifically this one), it's simply using the mechanism of chi sao as a starting point or comvenient environment to isolate this aspect of wing chun skill. You're not competing in "chi sao" per se (a drill) but rather using the platform as a starting point to isolate and demonstrate the skills developed from said drill to make it easyer to judge.

**The problem is that these aren't really "wing chun skills", they are precursors to WCK skill -- WCK skill is being able to use your WCK in a fighting environment. This is like boxers having focus mitt tournaments or thai boxers having thai bag tournaments: it is no measure at all of skill we are trying to develop but they are useful exercises for helping to develop skill. Being able to do something in a drill or a demo means nothing. The drill just gives you the "feeling" and lets you sharpen to a limited degree one's coordination, etc.

It's a bit harder to judge in free form san sao application or sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all.

**Imagine if boxers (insert any fighting art) said it's harder to judge boxing skill in sparring since they generally only happen for a split second or don't happen at all! THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE BOXING SKILL -- THAT YOU CAN DO IT IN SPARRING. You can't measure skill outside of that environment.

**Chi sao tournaments are *at best* a waste of time. They reflect IMO a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of the training.

Terence

[Bartje]

Terence-

In your opinion a chi-sau tournament is at best a wast of time . . .
What's wrong with competition in only one aspect of WCK without having the pretention of being a WCK tournament?

rgds

Bartje

[t_niehoff]

Bartje,

What "aspect"? It boils down to understanding what WCK skill really is -- it is fighting skill (using WCK's tools). Fighting skill. Just like skill in boxing or skill in BJJ or any other martial art is being able to use their tools in fighting (if you can't box in the ring, you have no boxing skills; if you can't use your BJJ rolling on the mats, you have no BJJ skill; if you can't fight with your WCK tools, you have no WCK skill). Since WCK skill is a fighting skill, one can't "measure" that skill outside of fighting. An analogy is WCK is like swimming -- you can do land-swimming forms and drills related to how to swim, which are useful *steps* toward the development of swimming skills, but they are not swimming skills in and of themselves; the skill is in the swimming. To have a competition of various dry-land exercises and argue that these reflect genuine swimming skills is ludicrous.

Chi sao doesn't develop any WCK skills. None. It is a (necessary) step toward developing those WCK skills. That's why folks that do only forms and drills (chi sao) their whole lives will never develop good WCK: they have only taken the precursor steps toward skill.

Regards,

Terence

[martyg]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
martyg wrote:

**Chi sao tournaments are *at best* a waste of time. They reflect IMO a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of the training.

Terence

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

Luckily, I stopped caring what you think a long time ago. I reserve such "judging" on what I know, don't know, teach, not teach, do and don't do for people that actually matter and that there exists a mutal respect between.


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

[YongChun]

Originally posted by martyg
By the way, how about contributing an article to Wing Chun Tea House? ;)


Marty
Watchful Dragon Kwoon (http://www.hanweionline.org/wingchun)

Hi Marty,

Where is the link to that?

Ray

[YongChun]

Wing Chun has an intellectual part and a theory part like Yin and Yang that operate together and depend on each other. From the intellectual side every single aspect of Wing Chun is worth analyzing to death. So Chi sau competitions are just an in depth study into one aspect of Wing Chun. Slugging it out in Thai boxing rings or testing Wing Chun theory on the mat against BJJ is another kind of study that can feed the theoretical aspects of Wing Chun. Looking at the structure and composition of the Wing Chun forms themselves to add, delete or modify different parts or to compare lineage variations is again another kind of interesting study. All of these things are interesting to the creative intellect as changes reflect someone's combat experiences. For the fighter only a small subset of these things is of interest.

Also: talk is cheap. Only when we see some videos of the various training methods and the results in real fights, then can be compare and judge on someone's Wing Chun quality. Other than that there is no use going around and around on the topic of whether someone else's training is useful or not. Whatever anyone on this forum does is not real combat anyway nor is there evidence that anyone's training methods will work in real combat or won't work in real combat. The newspapers have enough articles about what happens in real combat. Real combat is surprise, multiple opponents, weapons assaults and bombs. Real fighting is dirty. The distance between Chi sau and ring fighting is probably the same as the distance between ring fighting and real combat. There may be other factors in our genetics, our non fighting backgrounds or personality that determine our success in real combat. These things have never been adequately studied. There have been stories of people trained only in Yoga or Ballet who have done well in a fight.

[Bartje]

Terence-

You misread my post or I didn't express my self to well.
Imo a chi-sau tournament is just what it is: a chi-sau competition.

The original post, at least the way I read it, does not intend to present a WCK tournament. It is not a tournament on fighting skills. Just chi-sau!

What's wrong with that?

rgds

Bartje

[t_niehoff]

martyg wrote:

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

**I don't think I could have been any clearer. Getting together to do drills is fine; that's called training. Making some drill a competition shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of WCK, the training, and its objectives.

Luckily, I stopped caring what you think a long time ago. I reserve such "judging" on what I know, don't know, teach, not teach, do and don't do for people that actually matter and that there exists a mutal respect between.

**If you post your "thoughts" on chi sao competitions on a public forum you should expect others with differing views to share their thoughts.

Regards,

Terence

[t_niehoff]

Bartje,

Why not have lop sao tournaments or dan chi sao tournaments or perhaps turning (clashing) punch tournaments too? How about form tournaments? Because making these competitions misses the whole point of their (forms and drills) nature. You can't judge a form or a drill because they are not being done for their own sake but to get something from then as preparation for fighting (training). Whether you get that or not can only be seen in the context of fighting.

Ask yourself why people compete in chi sao competitions. Because they think it reflects some skill. But it doesn't or than the ability to perform a drill. That has no bearing on whether they have WCK skills, fighting skills -- the objective of our training. If they want to see or test their WCK skill they should fight -- they'll see it immediately. But they don't want to fight. Which begs the question: if they really have fighting skill, what's the problem with fighting?

Regards,

Terence

[Rhat]

Originally posted by t_niehoff

So Terence, you're stating I have a complete misunderstanding of WCK, the training, and the objectives of training because I like to have my students get together with others to do chi sao, even in a tournament environment. Just so we're clear on this and there's no doublespeak afterwords.

**I don't think I could have been any clearer. Getting together to do drills is fine; that's called training. Making some drill a competition shows a complete misunderstanding of the nature of WCK, the training, and its objectives.




Actually, we're just as confused about Chi Sau as we are about consciousness. For the most part, we consider Chi Sau to be the foundation of Reality itself. And Terence made his point!

[PaulH]

And what's your point, Rhat? =)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
And what's your point, Rhat? =)

Often you imagine that there's some particular point for you to see, with such a notion in place, we soon start talking like Hendrik--"No point at all":D

[PaulH]

Your Chi Point has reached the ultimate perfection! It has returned to no points at all! E\_ =)

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
Your Chi Point has reached the ultimate perfection! It has returned to no points at all! E\_ =)

Bruce Lee said:"Don't think, just kick me!"

Is our confusion only the result of what we think?;)

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
There have been stories of people trained only in Yoga or Ballet who have done well in a fight.

They are probably overshadowed somewhat by the number of stories where Ballet guys got beaten senseless.

Actually I have recently heard a few stories about Hong Kong WC guys getting beaten senseless in kickboxing matches. So the problem is not that WC guys aren't fighting - They've been competing kinda regularly. They just aren't winning! :p

You guys are behind the times if you aren't competing really.
:)

[PaulH]

"I think therefore I am" . Nothing confusing about this! To avoid further confusing thoughts, you should meditate more on this with the thinking hat on! Let me know when you finally realize that you are truly ar hat! =)

[t_niehoff]

Edmund wrote:

They are probably overshadowed somewhat by the number of stories where Ballet guys got beaten senseless.

**LOL! Anyone can fight; we're born with that ability. Like any ability, some are naturally better at it than others. And like any natural ability, we can increase or improve that ability through proper application of training. One of the most significant factors in improving fighting ability is conditioning/shape. So when two unskilled people fight, it's not surprising that someone in better shape (like a ballet dancer) wins.

Actually I have recently heard a few stories about Hong Kong WC guys getting beaten senseless in kickboxing matches. So the problem is not that WC guys aren't fighting - They've been competing kinda regularly. They just aren't winning!

**And that either comes down to the method is lacking or the training they are doing is lacking. IME it is the training that most WCK practitioners, like most TCMA practitioners, that comes up short. The have step 1, the forms, and step 2, the drills, but they don't go on to the next step 3, fighting. And as all fighters have shown, you can only become a better fighter by fighting.

You guys are behind the times if you aren't competing really.

**A person doesn't need to "compete" to develop good skills; they need to train properly (steps 1-3). A huge part of the problem is that many in WCK think -- and want to believe -- that chi sao will develop certain fighting skills (so they are learning to fight without fighting). It doesn't. It is a step on the road to developing those skills. Some WCK "master" (insert almost any of the big names) that has done tons of chi sao for 30 years but hasn't fought regularly as part of his training, and is great at chi sao, will be easily beaten by a decent fighter because that "master" has never really developed any WCK skill, any fighting skill. He will look great at demos, great when "touching hands", can talk a great game, but will eat the floor when he mixes it up with a moderately skilled fighter. That's why none of these "masters" want to show themselves mixing it up; they instead want to show forms, drills, "touching hands", etc.

**It's actually very simple -- if a person is interested in results, actually developing WCK fighting skills, they will focus on results. If a person is interested in something else, their focus will be on something else. All you need to do is look at their focus, and it tells you . . .

Regards,

Terence

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok. And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. I have been competing since the age of ten, started in my Kenpo karate days.
What I’m saying is the more you compete, that’s any level of competition, the more you can handle the pressure on the streets. I’ve been there, done that, so I know it works. If I can do it, anybody can. I have plenty of full contact footage of me. I just don’t want too be the one too show and give proof on video all the time. And I’m sure there is someone out there who believes all of this stuff about tournaments is no good for growing fighters.
Then show us a VIDEO OF YOURSELF fighting full contact against a tournament fighter. Most of the ones that feel that way, are people that just cant get in one (tournaments) because of their age, wanting too rekindle their youth.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

“To fix in, you have too do or know ten times more than anyone else. And in most cases, it still isn’t enough. Being the man that you are, in most eyes you will never be complete. The world will not change for you on how people think, only you can change the world”.

My father. 1970.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[AmanuJRY]

Making a competitive game of chi sau is fine, if that is what you want to do. It can be a testing ground for 'chi sau' ability, It is when it is considered a representation of 'fighting' ability that I have a problem with. To me, chi sau is a means for developing some WC attributes (sensitivity, awareness, connection of handwork to footwork) and a chi sau competition can demonstrate these aspects, but I'm more interested in how these attributes relate to my fighting ability, so I would rather spar or participate in events of that nature.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok. And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

I don't think anyone can argue that this kind of background would have made you less effective in the street. Definitely the more you fight for real the better. The only draw back is that any one of those fights could have gotten you killed as well. They say friends disappear but enemies accumulate. I know in Asia sooner or later someone gets their revenge if they lose. So it's not to everyone's tastes to go that route. For the ladies there aren't that many that can get good by street fighting or going toe to toe with some 240 pound kickboxer. I think different training methods are possible but whatever the method there has to be some stress training that's reasonable.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

That’s life in Detroit I had too fight for my shoes, fight for my bag lunch and fight just to earn the right just to live on the street that I lived on. I didn’t ask for those fights, they just go down that way, almost everyday life for most. And then in my teenage years I did choose gang life, but that’s over now. Back then; to me it was a way of life.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com (http://detroitwingchun.com)

[YongChun]

Of course for the most part dancers will get beat up because they are dancers and not fighters.

There hasn't been a good definition about competing. It has been discussed by Terrence (I think) that competition isn’t necessary. Others have mentioned that tournaments also don't help because Karate people and Taekwondo people also don't do well in the Mixed Martial arts competitions. So that takes us to of cross training threads. The simplest thing is to train like the people you admire. If you admire the Thais then train like them. If you admire the BJJ then train like them. If you admire some particular Wing Chun guy the follow his advice and train like him.

People who fight for a living tend to keep in shape, hit the bag, spar and do all the things any fighter does. I think everyone is aware of that on this forum but we are just playing some games with each other because we don't all have the same tastes. So those who like A will try to put down or at least argue with those who like B. Even though people choose not to agree with each other there still can be a useful transfer of knowledge in this way.

I think the best is to construct a stage in some city and just have people from all the various camps compete to see whose training method is the best. A fight to the death is best. No rules of any kind. That gets back to Bloodsport and trying to beat Claude Van Damme. Here’s the man: http://www.usadojo.com/biofrankdux.htm

Practically we should discuss good suggestions for the next step beyond chi sau which doesn't involve trying to really injure each other by trying to take each other's heads off in practice. For example Dan Anderson who was a Karate champion has written a book about how to spar in order to win in competition. See: American Freestyle Karate:
A Guide To Sparring at http://www.danandersonkarate.com/

Sifu Chung Kwok Chow from New York has a tape out on how to start freestyle sparring in Wing Chun. I would like to hear opinions on whether this step is helpful in training the average Wing Chun person to be a more realistic fighter or if there are better methods. Not that many people have documented a good step-by-step program.

I think those into realistic ring combat should really have their own forum to discuss this interest in depth and to report on the success or failure of their Wing Chun training methods against the people who really train to fight. It would be like having a forum for theoretical physicists and another for the experimentalists. Both are really very useful to have. It’s of no use to have theoretician’s, experimentalists and amateurs of either field debating about what is the most effective. I suspect the real ring fighters rarely have time nor are inclined to be writers about fighting theory. Rather they would consider this a waste of their valuable training time.

So I’ll start the bidding off with sifu Chung Kwok Chow’s tape. Other suggestions are Emin Boztepe’s tapes and Wai-Po Tan’s tape: Inspired by Wing Chun. Wai-Po Tang’s tape seems to be a blend of Wing Chun and boxing training procedures.

[Rhat]

Originally posted by PaulH
Let me know when you finally realize that you are truly ar hat! =)

Am I truly ar hat or arhat or whoever? No brother or monk ever has more authority than that granted by other human being.

I experience change here and now! ;)

[sihing]

Originally posted by Edmund
Actually I have recently heard a few stories about Hong Kong WC guys getting beaten senseless in kickboxing matches. So the problem is not that WC guys aren't fighting - They've been competing kinda regularly. They just aren't winning! :p

You guys are behind the times if you aren't competing really.
:)

One of the senior students in the class competed in a kickboxing event a couple of years ago, he was only in the school maybe a year, and had no fighting experience, at that time he was only 16. Anyways it was in the intermediate division and suffices it to say he easily wiped the floor, especially with his first opponent. He would use only basic technique and entries to achieve this. The referee even accused him of being "To Aggressive", he ending holding back a bit in the next fights because of the continuous warnings from the ref. He placed 1st in his division but the funniest thing was when the host of the event, a Martial Arts Instructor with one of the biggest schools in the city and coach of a few national Thai Boxing champs, came up to this novice to say "Is that all you can do"(chain punching) LOL. Since this time he hasn't competed again but is willing to if the right event comes around. The art of WC is effective regardless if one is competing or not, IMO....


James

[Rhat]

Originally posted by YongChun
I suspect the real ring fighters rarely have time nor are inclined to be writers about fighting theory. Rather they would consider this a waste of their valuable training time.


You're pointing directly to the actual experience of Mike Tyson. The real ring fighters rock :cool:

[t_niehoff]

AHR wrote:

I have been in well over 200 street fights here in Detroit and never lost, thank God I’m still ok.

**Here we go . . . . But I'll top you: I've had one thousand streetfights! What? Don't belive me? Aren't you impressed? You find unsubstantiated claims meaningless because anyone can make those claims? Trust me, it's true. ;)

And without my tournament back ground in chi sao and full contact fighting I believe that I would not have had a good fighting record in the streets of Detroit or in a tournament. I have been competing since the age of ten, started in my Kenpo karate days.

**Ah, you're one of those karate-competitor-turned-WCK practitioners.

What I’m saying is the more you compete, that’s any level of competition, the more you can handle the pressure on the streets. I’ve been there, done that, so I know it works. If I can do it, anybody can.

**"Handle pressure"? So you think a chi sao competition is "pressure"? OK.

I have plenty of full contact footage of me. I just don’t want too be the one too show and give proof on video all the time.

**Full-contact karate?

And I’m sure there is someone out there who believes all of this stuff about tournaments is no good for growing fighters.
Then show us a VIDEO OF YOURSELF fighting full contact against a tournament fighter. Most of the ones that feel that way, are people that just cant get in one (tournaments) because of their age, wanting too rekindle their youth.

**As we all know, tournament karate fighters and chi sao competitors are highly skilled and deadly -- that's why folks that participate in them are prohibited from all NHB events (so that we don't embarass those bjjists, mmaists, thai boxers, etc.). In fact, just the other day Royce was saying, "Man, I hope I never run into one of those chi sao champions on the street." And Royler added, "Yeah, and some of those bad-@sses even do full contact karate!" A shiver went through the room.

Regards,

Terence

[sihing]

Boy, I wonder if the MMA/Grapplers out there diss their arts as much as Terence does. Terence please answer me this question, do you think all MMA/grapplers out there in all the arts, BJJ/GJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, Judo, etc etc..train hard, train to fight, train to survive, train to exhaustion? That has been your point all along hasn't it? In your mind it is very frustrating to hear someone make a claim that hasn't done the work, and from what I understand of your posts you believe all of us WC players are of this way. It is true that not all people that practice, learn WC are going to understand all of it or even be able to apply most of it, its all a matter of how important it is to them, but I will say that even if the practitioner gains a bit more self confidence in themselves and what they can or cannot do then some value has been given back to them through the art. I too dislike it when people mis-judge their own abilities and go out there boosting about what they can do and how good they are. When this happens then yeah I would want you to prove it too, but I do not believe most of us here are like that or making claims like this. And when one does prove it, how many more times does he/she have to keep on doing that, PROVING themselves. I believe over time one will become aware of their own strengths and weaknesses, and be truthful about it, because no matter who you are you do have both. Once that state of mind is achieved then you can begin to work on your weaknesses to make them strengths and become more effective, not only in MA but in life to.

James

[Edmund]

Originally posted by sihing
One of the senior students in the class competed in a kickboxing event a couple of years ago, he was only in the school maybe a year, and had no fighting experience, at that time he was only 16. Anyways it was in the intermediate division and suffices it to say he easily wiped the floor, especially with his first opponent. He would use only basic technique and entries to achieve this. The referee even accused him of being "To Aggressive", he ending holding back a bit in the next fights because of the continuous warnings from the ref. He placed 1st in his division but the funniest thing was when the host of the event, a Martial Arts Instructor with one of the biggest schools in the city and coach of a few national Thai Boxing champs, came up to this novice to say "Is that all you can do"(chain punching) LOL. Since this time he hasn't competed again but is willing to if the right event comes around. The art of WC is effective regardless if one is competing or not, IMO....

James

Send him to Hong Kong. They'd love to have him win one for them.

If you think you can chain punch your way to professional success in Muay Thai, I'd love to see it. Frankly I think it takes a bit more technique to be a pro Thai boxer though.



]Originally posted by t_niehoff
The have step 1, the forms, and step 2, the drills, but they don't go on to the next step 3, fighting. And as all fighters have shown, you can only become a better fighter by fighting.
..
..
A person doesn't need to "compete" to develop good skills; they need to train properly (steps 1-3).


I don't think that's why they lost.
The HK guys took the 3 steps. You think they just did drills before they went in the ring? They fought each other pretty good. But they all got KOed in the 1st round vs some kickboxers.

Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.

[hunt1]

Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.

Not true WC has and had the technical answers. The trick is to figure them out before you fight not after. They should have spent their training time training against Thai boxers not other WC fighters.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by hunt1
Quite simply WC had no technical answers for a lot of it.

Not true WC has and had the technical answers. The trick is to figure them out before you fight not after. They should have spent their training time training against Thai boxers not other WC fighters.

But how in the hell are they meant to do that?
They don't have access to Thai boxers. They train in HK in their own schools. They would not go to a Thai boxing school.

If they had trained with Thai boxers they would have realized what they were doing was simply the wrong way.

WC people just aren't humble enough to admit that they aren't good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak.

It's not just a matter of fighting a lot. I feel they've got to actually learn some new techniques .

[Ernie]

[[WC people just aren't humble enough to admit that they aren't good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak. ]]


another case of to much SLT not enough thigh kicks
:D

how about getting thigh kicked while your doing SLT
that should solve the problem:rolleyes:

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
[[
how about getting thigh kicked while your doing SLT
that should solve the problem:rolleyes:

In addition there should be someone behind you applying a neck choke while doing SLT to cover off on the BJJ stuff.

Ray

[t_niehoff]

sihing wrote:

Boy, I wonder if the MMA/Grapplers out there diss their arts as much as Terence does.

**I'm not "diss"ing WCK, just how many people in WCK train. For example, how folks can become teachers, "masters", etc. -- how folks can even talk about someone being "good" -- of a fighting method without ever having fought. How can we call someone a good boxer, good bjjists, etc. if they've never mixed it up? But it's standard in WCK.

Terence please answer me this question, do you think all MMA/grapplers out there in all the arts, BJJ/GJJ, Sambo, Greco Roman, Judo, etc etc..train hard, train to fight, train to survive, train to exhaustion? That has been your point all along hasn't it?

**My point is simple: to become a better fighter through WCK or any fighting method *requires* that we actually fight as part of our training. That's it. All fighters regardless of "style" or method do that. If someone isn't doing that, they can't develop or improve their fighting skills to any significant degree; they can't "understand" WCK or become "skilled" at WCK without fighting (regardless of how long they've been in the art, whether they "completed the system", what certificates they have, who they studied with, etc.).

In your mind it is very frustrating to hear someone make a claim that hasn't done the work, and from what I understand of your posts you believe all of us WC players are of this way.

**Not "all" -- I've met some, and some are here on this forum, that fight as part of their training. But IME it is a relatively small group. WCK, like most TCMAs, is marketed (via the myths associated with it) in such a way as to appeal to folks that don't want to fight, that don't want to train hard, etc. It is easy to recognize, however, who is fighting and who isn't (the theoreticians) even on a forum like this simply by their perspective.

It is true that not all people that practice, learn WC are going to understand all of it or even be able to apply most of it, its all a matter of how important it is to them, but I will say that even if the practitioner gains a bit more self confidence in themselves and what they can or cannot do then some value has been given back to them through the art.

**Someone trying to be a better "swimmer" but without ever getting in the water may feel more confident or better about themselves but isn't it a false confidence? Is confidence based on delusion a good thing in your mind? Wouldn't they be better off just getting in the pool?

I too dislike it when people mis-judge their own abilities and go out there boosting about what they can do and how good they are. When this happens then yeah I would want you to prove it too, but I do not believe most of us here are like that or making claims like this.

**It goes beyond folks merely needing to back up "claims". How can folks that never get in the water intelligently discuss swimming and training to be better swimmers? It's all theory and conjecture.

And when one does prove it, how many more times does he/she have to keep on doing that, PROVING themselves. I believe over time one will become aware of their own strengths and weaknesses, and be truthful about it, because no matter who you are you do have both. Once that state of mind is achieved then you can begin to work on your weaknesses to make them strengths and become more effective, not only in MA but in life to.

**How can one genuinely know their strengths and weaknesses if they don't fight (how can you be aware of your strengths and weaknesses in swimming if you don't get in the water)? More conjecture, more theory, more BS. I wonder about someone who thinks they are learning important "life lessons" by training to become a better swimmer without getting in the water.

Regards,

Terence

[t_niehoff]

Edmund wrote:

But how in the hell are they meant to do that?
They don't have access to Thai boxers. They train in HK in their own schools. They would not go to a Thai boxing school.

**When I said "Step 3, fight" I don't mean solely fight with other WCK practitioners -- one absolutely needs to get the widest exposure possible, with the most skillful opponents possible. And they have MT in HK, and kyokushinkai, boxers, etc.

If they had trained with Thai boxers they would have realized what they were doing was simply the wrong way.

**That's an excellent and important point.

WC people just aren't humble enough to admit that they aren't good at everything and learn from other styles to improve themselves in the areas they are weak.

**If one accepts that they can only become a more skillful fighter by fighting (other skillful fighters), and does that sort of training, they will be humble.

It's not just a matter of fighting a lot. I feel they've got to actually learn some new techniques .

**Fighting will show you what you need, whether it is better or new technique, conditioning, attributes, etc. The HK guys should have learned a lesson from their encounter with the Thais; their fights showed them what they needed.

Regards,

Terence

[Nick Forrer]

Just to give another side of the story (people can disbelieve me if they want/pick holes etc. as im sure they will)

My training partner had a fight with a thai boxer at a Pub not so long ago. Started out as some friendly sparring but degenerated after the thai boxer couldn't stop any of my training partners strikes.

In the end the guy grabbed his hands to stop him from hitting. My training partner used Kwan sau to break the control and then finished it with a head butt.

Another guy who thai boxed when he was younger came to our school. I saw him clinching and kneeing one of my class mates so I went over and asked him to do it on me. As soon as he went to knee I stepped right into him with my stance, straightened my back and hit him (lightly) in the face while driving forward. This knocked him onto his backside and hopefully answered his question of 'how do you get out of this'.

So it is possible to beat a thai boxer. I do agree with some of the general sentiments on this thread though i.e. you'll never know until you try it.

[Vajramusti]

Good credible stories Nick.

BTW regarding the quotes--at the boyttom of your posts..

Schopenhauer must have been observing some groupie behavior on KFO.

Too bad Camus coulnt get his existentialist decision making together to actually lift a finger during the Algerian crisis.

[t_niehoff]

Interesting post, Nick.

There are differing "levels" of fighters (in terms of technique, attributes, etc.) in every method which makes the "art vs. art" comparisons difficult if not impossible. What is important is to not only have exposure to as many different methods as possible, it's equally important to have exposure to as many different levels as possible. YKS WCK even has a kuit along the lines of "to become better skilled, we must face better and better opponents." After all, WCK doesn't give us the answers, only the means of finding the answers for ourselves.

Regards,

Terence

[CFT]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
What is important is to not only have exposure to as many different methods as possible, it's equally important to have exposure to as many different levels as possible.There is no end to learning ... or in (poor) Cantonese pinyin: "hok mo jee ging".

[YongChun]

Hi Nick,

Your story is not surprising to me since we have had a lot of those experiences as well. Some of our past students have been bouncers, police officers and correctional (jail) guards and so I hear a lot of this kind of stuff. But for the most part no one has believed any of these kinds of stories except you seem to be getting away Scott free.

It may be that no Wing Chun school will or can every produce someone who can win an Ultimate fighting championship using pure Wing Chun nevertheless it doesn't detract from Wing Chun in my mind. Your kinds of experiences testify to the usefulness of Wing Chun. That's not to say that some other martial art is not useful too.

Ray

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good credible stories Nick.

Thanks. Im just trying to relate my personal experiences and those of my class mates. While others may be disenchanted with WC and have given it up for Hsing I etc, plenty of my friends have successfully defended themselves using the wing chun that WSL passed on and that Clive has taught us, myself included. Of course no one has knocked out Rickson or Vanderlai but its not clear they would be able to do that using any other art either.

Another story: One friend (a transport cop) has been asked by his employers to teach them control/restraint techniques derived from Wing chun having seen how much more effective they are then the karate/jiu jitsu mix they have at the moment


Originally posted by Vajramusti
BTW regarding the quotes--at the boyttom of your posts..
Schopenhauer must have been observing some groupie behavior on KFO.

Im sometimes unnerved by the depth of his psychological insights. For example:

'It is with trifles, and when he is off guard, that a man best reveals his character.'

&

'The more unintelligent a man is, the less mysterious existence seems to him.'

A personal favourite though:

'Fame and fortune are like sea-water; the more we drink, the thirstier we become.'

Wise words in these celebrity obssessed times.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Interesting post, Nick.

There are differing "levels" of fighters (in terms of technique, attributes, etc.) in every method which makes the "art vs. art" comparisons difficult if not impossible. What is important is to not only have exposure to as many different methods as possible, it's equally important to have exposure to as many different levels as possible. YKS WCK even has a kuit along the lines of "to become better skilled, we must face better and better opponents." After all, WCK doesn't give us the answers, only the means of finding the answers for ourselves.

Regards,

Terence

Yes all good points.

BTW I enjoyed your article 'what drives us'. A lot of the ideas re: body structure seem similiar to what is taught in WSL VT.

[Edmund]

Nick,

I think you've misread my sentiments.
One of my fellow students has 3 wins no losses in actual Muay Thai matches. Another just won and is fighting next week.

The reason they succeed is because they were taught the right way. They learnt and trained in all aspects of Muay Thai. The fact that you and others keep talking about punching your way out of everything - successfully or not - demonstrates the type of attitude that I feel is a problem.
Because it's not looking to improve the weak areas.

WC kicking, kneeing, clinching, footwork are all weak.
They are not at the level of pro Muay Thai.
They are not even at the level of amateur Muay Thai because WC people aren't humble enough to learn from the mistakes of other WC people and improve those areas.

[Nick Forrer]

Originally posted by Edmund
Nick, I think you've misread my sentiments.
If so apologies


Originally posted by Edmund
One of my fellow students has 3 wins no losses in actual Muay Thai matches. Another just won and is fighting next week.


Congratulations


Originally posted by Edmund
The reason they succeed is because they were taught the right way.

Okay


Originally posted by Edmund
They learnt and trained in all aspects of Muay Thai.

I'm not clear. Do you mean to say they learnt to apply their wing chun against thai boxing or that they learnt to thai box. If the latter I would ask: Do thai boxers learn wing chun to beat wing chun? If not why do wing chun people have to learn to Thai box to beat Thai boxers?


Originally posted by Edmund
The fact that you and others keep talking about punching your way out of everything - successfully or not - demonstrates the type of attitude that I feel is a problem.

In the instance I described it was less the punches and more the body structure and stance - I stepped *through* him with my stance. Punches by themsleves would have done little if anything to break the double neck tie.


Originally posted by Edmund
Because it's not looking to improve the weak areas.

Perhaps we disagree on what constitutes weak areas. There is a distinction to be made IMO between weak areas, and areas which dont fall into the WC strategy (at least in the first instance).


Originally posted by Edmund
WC kicking, kneeing, clinching, footwork are all weak.

I think you should prefix this with an IME. Theres nothing 'weak' about WC footwork or kicking, provided you know how to use it and you train it properly.

As regards Clinch/knees, my teacher wrote this recently:

'Clinching....... also in a real fight, it the attacker is feeling overwhelmed by your close response of hitting him, it is possible that he might try to hold on to your arms or your body to stop you. This is why it is SO important to fight the person not his arms - really focus on the target and not be distracted by the opponent trying to clinch you, or be distracted from the target by an attempt to grab you or your arm. Once you get clinched/held, if you respond to this and struggle you are then not applying Ving Tsun, you are wrestling and especially against a strong person you may loose out. You have to fight the person, not the arms. The other important thinking from Ving Tsun I remember Wong told me regarding your arms was, "Always be free to hit." ie. don't get your arms held or trapped. Personally this approach is what I endeavour to execute. However, as with all actions, some may work some may not, so if my arms happen to be grabbed, I immediately without pause, flow on to the next free nearest weapon being my kick or knee or shoulder barge or head butt. I have found from experience that most people who grab both your arms from the front to stop you hitting them will let go at least one hand if they feel that their groin is threatened by my kick which even if my kick is unsuccessful allows me to resume the hand attack. In an ideal world we should hit and “take out” the attacker as he tries to clinch/grab, not after. This reminds me of a story in 1990 when Wong gave a seminar in St. Albans, UK. Someone from the audience asked, “If someone comes up from behind you, grabs you with their arm around the throat and drags you backwards off-balance, how do you get out of it?”. Wong replied saying, “If someone stabs you in the heart, how do you get out of it?”. The students said, “You can’t do anything. It’s too late.”
Wong replied “Exactly!!!” What we are saying here is that in an ideal situation Ving Tsun works properly when you respond AS the opponent does something, not afterwards. This is why every endeavour should be made to take the enemy out as he goes to clinch/hold you, not afterwards, once he has got you.'


Originally posted by Edmund
WC people aren't humble enough to learn from the mistakes of other WC people and improve those areas.

True...but a phenomenon not unique to WC methinks

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Edmund

WC kicking, kneeing, clinching, footwork are all weak.
They are not at the level of pro Muay Thai.
They are not even at the level of amateur Muay Thai because WC people aren't humble enough to learn from the mistakes of other WC people and improve those areas.

Not only that but:

(for brevity: compared with Escrima means compared with Escrima's weapons work)

1. Wing Chun weapons work is weak compared to Escrima and Arnis.
2. Wing Chun grappling is weak compared to BJJ, Judo and wrestling.
3. Wing Chun internal power is weak compared to some Qigong arts
4. Wing Chun’s use of soft power is weak compared to some Chen stylists.
5. Wing Chun’s breaking power is weak compared to Iron palm and Karate.
6. Wing Chun’s fighting on wet ground is weak compared to Silat.
7. Wing Chun’s art of deception is weak compared to Silat, NinJa arts and Capoeira.
8. Wing Chun’s high kicks are weak compared to TaeKwonDo and Savat.
9. Wing Chun’s joint locking is weak compared to Chin Na.
10. Wing Chun’s multiple opponent fighting is weak compared to Choy Lee Fut.
11. Wing Chun’s body flexibility is weak compared with Capoeira and gymnastics.
12. Wing Chun’s stance is weak compared with Hung style’s stance.
13. Wing Chun’s Butterfly knife is primitive compared with Japanese or Chinese sword work.
14. Wing Chun’s resistance to punches are weak compared to Iron Bell cover.
15. Wing Chun’s methods are inferior for police work where hits are frowned upon.
16. Wing Chun’s throwing capabilities are weak compared with Aikido.
17. Wing Chun’s off balancing capability is weak compared with Ba Gua.
18. Wing Chun’s power is weak compared with power lifters.
19. Wing Chun’s ring record is weak compared with any other ring art.

We have a lot to work on.

Ray

[CFT]

Hah hah,

Just give up people. Don't you recognize a lost cause when you see one? Just stay indoors, in your bomb-proof "Panic Room".

[sihing]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Not only that but:

(for brevity: compared with Escrima means compared with Escrima's weapons work)

1. Wing Chun weapons work is weak compared to Escrima and Arnis. Incorrect, depends on who you learn from
2. Wing Chun grappling is weak compared to BJJ, Judo and wrestling. Incorrect, depends on who you learn from
3. Wing Chun internal power is weak compared to some Qigong arts Incorrect, depends on who you learn from
4. Wing Chun’s use of soft power is weak compared to some Chen stylists.
5. Wing Chun’s breaking power is weak compared to Iron palm and Karate.
6. Wing Chun’s fighting on wet ground is weak compared to Silat.
7. Wing Chun’s art of deception is weak compared to Silat, NinJa arts and Capoeira.
8. Wing Chun’s high kicks are weak compared to TaeKwonDo and Savat. Incorrect, depends on who you learn from
9. Wing Chun’s joint locking is weak compared to Chin Na. Incorrect, depends on who you learn from
10. Wing Chun’s multiple opponent fighting is weak compared to Choy Lee Fut. Incorrect,
11. Wing Chun’s body flexibility is weak compared with Capoeira and gymnastics. Incorrect,
12. Wing Chun’s stance is weak compared with Hung style’s stance. Incorrect
13. Wing Chun’s Butterfly knife is primitive compared with Japanese or Chinese sword work. Incorrect
14. Wing Chun’s resistance to punches are weak compared to Iron Bell cover. The idea is not to get hit in the first place
15. Wing Chun’s methods are inferior for police work where hits are frowned upon.Inncorrect
16. Wing Chun’s throwing capabilities are weak compared with Aikido.
17. Wing Chun’s off balancing capability is weak compared with Ba Gua.Inncorrect
18. Wing Chun’s power is weak compared with power lifters.Punching power is totally different from lifting power
19. Wing Chun’s ring record is weak compared with any other ring art.Wing Chun is not a "Ring Art", its a "Martial Art" used for self defense

We have a lot to work on.

Ray

[Ernie]

and wing chun can not only cure cancer but if you ''learn from the right person '' you can fly :o

[sihing]

LOL..That's true only if you combine FMA & JKD also with the right instructor....

James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by sihing
[QUOTE]Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Not only that but:

(for brevity: compared with Escrima means compared with Escrima's weapons work)

4. Wing Chun’s use of soft power is weak compared to some Chen stylists.
5. Wing Chun’s breaking power is weak compared to Iron palm and Karate.
6. Wing Chun’s fighting on wet ground is weak compared to Silat.
7. Wing Chun’s art of deception is weak compared to Silat, NinJa arts and Capoeira.

16. Wing Chun’s throwing capabilities are weak compared with Aikido.
We have a lot to work on.

Ray

You forgot to say that these are also incorrect. We have a very impressive art that can do everything any other art can do. You would wonder why all these other arts exist. There is definitely no need for cross training. Who is the Wing Chun instructor who is skilled in all 19 areas (more so than those people who specialize in those)?

Ray

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
and wing chun can not only cure cancer but if you ''learn from the right person '' you can fly :o

The TM people used to teach how to fly in the 1970's. On TV they showed the first part of the training where they hopped up and down on rubber mats. There must be some Wing Chun teacher who has studied TM and hence can add that to his teaching curriculum. See: http://www.tm.org/sidhi/ Then again, I guess it's already included in one of the Wing Chun forms. I would guess in the slow part of the Siu Lim/Nim Tao you can get your brain waves to set your body into the right vibrational frequency pattern that levitation would naturally occur. Mantra theory talks about that kind of thing.

Since QiGong can cure Cancer and since Wing Chun includes anything QiGong people do, it follows that Wing Chun can also cure Cancer and I suspect most other diseases as well.

[sihing]

Ray,
The whole idea of WC was to create fighters fast. To learn all of these skills would take what, 20-30yrs. In your post you made some statements to which are not altogether correct. If I learned from one that couldn't kick high then I would probably not be learning that either, same with Chin-na, and all the rest. Once again, not all WC is equal or the same, and allot of it depends on where the source is coming from.

James

[YongChun]

Originally posted by sihing
Ray,
The whole idea of WC was to create fighters fast. To learn all of these skills would take what, 20-30yrs. In your post you made some statements to which are not altogether correct. If I learned from one that couldn't kick high then I would probably not be learning that either, same with Chin-na, and all the rest. Once again, not all WC is equal or the same, and allot of it depends on where the source is coming from.

James

I think to learn all these skills would take several lifetimes. Any art can be a lifelong study. Someone stated that Thai people can kick better than Wing Chun people can. That's because they specialize in that. Of course a Wing Chun guy can also add that to his training. If you add enough things to your training then it may no longer be Wing Chun.

Each Martial art has their own area of expertice and some of these things (Qigong, Tai Chi, Aikido and most anything) takes half a lifetime to train before master level proficiency develops. So it's not possible that a single Wing Chun teacher has all these skills. However, it is possible for any single skill mentioned (e.g. Chin Na) that there is some Wing Chun teacher who might be good at it but should be as good as a teacher who has devoted his life to that specialty.

For those who like to levitate like Ernie does, here is another link:
http://homepage.powerup.com.au/~tkbnetw/Simon_Harvey-Wilson_13.htm

[Ernie]

i see so if my wing chun [ comes from the right source ] wink wink

then i should be able to leap off a medical buliding and heal all the cancer people on the way down as i float , part the red sea
feed the children and create world peace

all while wearing my golden kung fu slippers and rainbow sash

dude i think god knows wing chun :)

or at least learned [ from the right source ] :eek:

[YongChun]

Originally posted by Ernie
dude i think god knows wing chun :)

or at least learned [ from the right source ] :eek:

God learned from Ng Mui or Yim Wing Chun because they were born way after God was. There is no proof that God's Wing Chun is any good though since he hasn't entered into any UFC competitions.

I guess that logic can't be right.

On second thought God was the one who taught Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun in the first place. He teaches through dreams. That's why Wing Chun is so good that it is superior to all other arts that were ever invented or are likely to be invented in the future.

Anything is possible in the art of Wing Chun if you have the right teacher and the right student.

[sihing]

Originally posted by YongChun
Anything is possible in the art of Wing Chun if you have the right teacher and the right student.

I agree...

[Edmund]

Nick,

WC is weak at certain things, good at others.
Being objective and critical about what works and what doesn't is important to being a good martial artist. Without the concept of improving the weaknesses and being able to learn from others, you are screwed.

Thai boxers do not have to learn wing chun to beat wing chun because they are decent at all the components of standup fighting: punching, kicking, kneeing, elbowing, standup grappling.
That is the philosophy of Muay Thai and it's a good one. One that should be adopted. They can win because they are good at those things. Looking at their fighting objectively you can plainly see it. These are the main natural weapons on the human body. You should train to use them. If Thais were weak at punching, they would have to learn from good punchers.

The main reason WC sucks so badly at kickboxing is because in their twist on things they actually don't believe they have any technical weaknesses. Then they get in the ring and all they can do is brawl against kicks and knees.

For an art that is very technical and philosophical with the hands, WC has to extend that attitude to the kicks/knees and learn the theories and art from people who KNOW how to use it in a fight.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by YongChun
Not only that but:
...
...
...

We have a lot to work on.

Ray

That's actually the better attitude to have:
The idea that you need to get better and look at what other arts do well and why it's useful.

As long as Wing Chun people think they don't have anything to learn, especially from other arts, WC people will never be good martial artists.

[sihing]

I think the key is to be aware of what the other arts have and how they do what they do. I will give you two examples. Years and years ago Dan Inosanto made the statement the Paul de Thouras, the Penjak Silat Serak Grandmaster, was the deadliest man he had ever seen. This sparked some curiosity in me and I ordered the instructional videos. The videos showcased de Thouras's brother Victor, who was second behind Paul in the system. To say the least I was not impressed. Both Inosanto and Paul the GM demo'd on the tapes and everything Inosanto did was Wing Chun. What GM Paul did was sloppy Wing Chun, and what his brother Victor did was even worse, but quite funny & comical to watch(he advocated letting yourself get front kicked in the stomach so you could catch the kick with your hands, I Quote Victor from the tape "You got me but I got you", lol). I even showed the tapes to GM William Cheung when he was in town during his Canadian tour and he had a good laugh too.

Since the invention of the internet and the purchase of a computer I've been exposed to more arts and Wing Chun than ever before. Most of the stuff I have seen is much better than the above. I viewed some GJJ stuff, featuring Rorian and Royce Gracie and I found it to be very informative and my first impression was this is Wing Chun for the ground. The explanations were good, and the techniques were logical, easy enough for one to almost learn it from the videos themselves.

I like to think of myself as open-minded, and I have an interest in most MA, except TKD and Karate, lol. Some of the other things that interested me were the Paul Vunak series, Emin Boztepe series and some WT stuff also. Most all of these people demonstrated things I have seen and learned in the WC system I practice, just that they put a new point of view towards it. With Paul Vunak I liked most of all his idea of training with Filipino sticks to train the visual awareness and perceptions speed. The sticks move much faster than the hands so therefore you train with the sticks to make the hands seem slow, very cool.

What have I learned from all these things? Well that some things in MA are universal, but most importantly that WC can easily be adapted to do all of the techniques I saw done in the video's above if one knows where to look in the art to find the answers.


James