turned in foot on gongbu

[Brad]

I've noticed some Shaolin schools hook the front foot in gongbu. I was just wondering why, and for those that do this, have you noticed any knee problems from doing forward stance this way? The one application I know of for it is a type of leg chin na technique... it seems to me that it would be hard on the knee practicing your stance like this alot(at least hooking it to the degree I see a lot of people do this).

[richard sloan]

it makes it more difficult to attack the groin...I have not experienced any knee problems from doing gong bu like this, but like anything, if something causes some serious complaint one should be careful of how they practice...

also, this move traps the opponent's foot, so your knee sort of goes off to the side and the foot turns on the stomp...

[GeneChing]

Some use the front foot in gong bu to distinguish between modern wushu and traditional kung fu. Modern wushu is more open and expressive so the foot points forward to open the groin for a deeper stance. Traditional kung fu closes that gate as Richard just said - it's more practical for combat. The turn should happen in the hip, not the knee. This way, the knee guards the groin and isn't stressed.

[Buddy]

While I agree with the above, the guarding the groin part is only a small part. IMO it's about, and I may be using this term incorrectly, it makes sense in Buddy-speak, triangulation. I other words, generally we want the the back heel to be a little outside the line of the front heel like this"

-^



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If we have both heels on the same line we are unstable. However if you turn the front foot to a 30-45 degree angle inward you create a triangulation thereby making the stance more stable even with the heels on the same line. Try it.

[Shaolinlueb]

groin protection? isnt that why we do iron crotch?

[GLW]

The triangulation is a major common concept for ALL Chinese Martial Arts.

i.e. San Jiao Bu (3 Angle Step). Basically, ALL stances should have a triangle for stability. Even contemporary wushu follows this maxim.

The turn in is more of an alignment thing...and a way to get stability through the joint (primarily the closing of the kua - hip area).

However, there are those that claim to do traditional that take this turn WAY too far. Instead of having a slight turn in, they turn the foot almost 90 degrees inward. This limits your stance, mobility (Gong bu...you would have to turn the foot BEFORE you could step), etc... and REALLY strains the knee.

While this may not be noticeable in a southern style, for a style like Chaquan, it would make the styles mobility hard to achieve. The saying there is stand like a mountain, move like a flood...hard to flood if you have to do prep to step.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Some use the front foot in gong bu to distinguish between modern wushu and traditional kung fu. Modern wushu is more open and expressive so the foot points forward to open the groin for a deeper stance. Traditional kung fu closes that gate as Richard just said - it's more practical for combat. The turn should happen in the hip, not the knee. This way, the knee guards the groin and isn't stressed.

I saw a monk do this at a seminar and also noticed that the rolled his feet in stances.........

lol..and I thought he was just cheating :p :cool:

[richard sloan]

wow, 90 degrees?

[blooming lotus]

:confused: :confused:

[Royal Dragon]

I've done 90 degrees. They had us do that In OYD back in my early, early days (1989ish). Thier kneeling stance does the same. Once you get the flexibility, ther eis no real knee straing at all if your structure is good. Of course OD never taught us the structure part, but my ankles are really flexible to this day becasue of that practice.

If you practic at 90 degrees in the form, then less than that is a cake walk when egangeing in actual application such as leg taps and stuff.

Internal guys might argue with that though, they seem to like everything in line (Toes pointing same direction as knees etc...)

Having done both, I think both methods work equally well so long as the over all methodolgy is consistant.

For example, turning it in, and trying to do things the internal way ain't gonna work due to opposing principals and all.

[Fu-Pow]

"The turn should happen in the hip, not the knee. This way, the knee guards the groin and isn't stressed."

Exactamundo!
:D

[Brad]

:rolleyes:

[Buddy]

Interesting how someone so ignorant could post a whole paragraph, Wang.

[fanzi]

I practice modern wushu and the front foot in gong bu is turned 45 degrees. Open would be less stable. I think if you've seen open foot in wushu they were just being sloppy.

[Buddy]

Wang, you said:
"If this post does not symbolize the overall ignorance surrounding TCMA and modern wushu, then I do not know what does!"

That seems to paint with a broad brush, everyone who posted doesn't it? While your hyperbole was cute, you may want to undestand exactly whom you insult in your post. I found some of the replys thoughtful and insightful. Other than yours.

"Two, taking an opposing position to my own statement without explaining yourself leads readers to believe that you see no fundamental differences between modern performance wushu and TCMA systems."

Firstly, I don't give a rats ass what "readers" (which really only means you) believe. My background has been posted here and elsewhere. Secondly your statement has no validity. Not explaining myself has no logical connection to my understanding of TCMA or modern performance wushu, both of which I have a fair amount of experience. Want to try again more civilly?

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Wang Rui Xuan


Two, taking an opposing position to my own statement without explaining yourself leads readers to believe that you see no fundamental differences between modern performance wushu and TCMA systems. Please explain.

Wang Rui Xuan


In regards to an opposing position.....

modern performance wushu tends to have very wide and open stances. For example the wushu gong bu stance and ma bu stance are very long & wide. The front foot of the wushu gong bu stance is pointed straight. My opinion for this is to help keep the balance because of the length and emphasis of the legs being "stretched out". The TCMA gong bu you see has the front foot pointed slightly inward. This could be used for a block (a sweeping motion inward towards the groin). Often you will see these image depicted in a lot of pictures of shaolin monks (just look at the postion of their feet) The wushu stances would probably not be used in a offensive or defensive situation. In TCMA the stances tend to be more narrow and shorter for obvious reasons and would be used in fighting situations. This IS the difference between TCMA and Wushu. The good thing about martial arts is that there are no rules set in stone. I do not believe this is disrespecting the old masters.

[Brad]

Modern chang quan stances came from traditional, and not all northern chang quan styles use the turned in foot on gongbu. Though over the years, the stances started getting even wider, and longer... I think it's better to say it's one of the differences between modern chang quan and traditional shaolin.

[Brad]

I practice modern wushu and the front foot in gong bu is turned 45 degrees. Open would be less stable. I think if you've seen open foot in wushu they were just being sloppy.
I actually find the open stances more stable(if you're doing long stances). The front foot pointing staight ahead is the general standard for modern chang quan gongbu.