Liver punch in the clinch.

[Enforcer-]

when the other guy grabs your neck would grabbing his weist with both arms and forcing my weight under my head then delivering a hook to their exposed liver = victory?

[Shaolin Dude]

how do u get out of a rear chokehold?

[blooming lotus]

enforcer: - there are alot of thing you can do from there from a good take down to torso stikes, to under the chin -come-throat , but that would be fairly drastic and not something I reccommend unless totally neccessary.

On rear choke: we've also talked about this before and it would depend on how his weight was distributed and where in the hold you countered. is it one hand/ two hands and where are both your feet??

[CaptinPickAxe]

I've never heard of a liver punch before...

Do you mean kidney?

[David Jamieson]

well, not if you're a weakling and can't get any power into your strike.

victory is when you knock em out, or you get more points.

In real life victory is when you knock em out or kill em. But if you kill em, you actually lose.

funny how that works eh?

[David Jamieson]

or, i suppose victory could come in the form of their submission too.

[Becca]

You don't need to knock them out. Just hurt'em so's they let go, prefferably in a way so they can't chase you either.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
In real life victory is when you knock em out or kill em. But if you kill em, you actually lose.


Heh, in real life, victory is when you disarm them, damage their structure (waist & below - so they can't run as fast as you), and run away.

Well, better make sure they don't know where you live or hang out, either...

[omarthefish]

Where are all these rear choke questions coming out of. He said "CLINCH" that means face to face....:confused:



Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I've never heard of a liver punch before...

Do you mean kidney?

The liver is behind your ribs on the right side. It's a good piece of trivia to know as a MA. It means that you can hurt someone much more on with a body left hook to the body than a right.

Try it while your sitting there reading this. Punch yourself in the ribs first on the right and then on the left. See if you can feel which side is tougher. When you take a shot on the right, most people will feel a bit of nasuea that doesn't happen from a shot to the left.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Enforcer-
when the other guy grabs your neck would grabbing his weist with both arms and forcing my weight under my head then delivering a hook to their exposed liver = victory?

It may get you a knee in the face.

[ShaolinTiger00]

very unlikely enforcer.

if he's got you in a neck plumb, he's actually doing a pretty good job protecting his sides.

Your best bet would be to pummel out (crowbar, swim etc.) elbows or clinch his waist and body lock him for a takedown.

but that's assuming he's not moving, which in reality, if he's got a neck plumb on you, he is keeping you off balance, striking with knees, elbows, switching hands to dirty box, setting you up for a throw..

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00

Your best bet would be to pummel out (crowbar, swim etc.) elbows or clinch his waist and body lock him for a takedown.


Can someone fill me in on the new meaning of the word "pummel". I've been seeing it a lot online lately like it means something special but the only definition I've ever heard for it is pretty much this one:

To beat, as with the fists; pommel: The angry crowd pummeled the thief. See Synonyms at beat.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=pummel

Suddenly people are using it like it's some kind of special fighting technique. Crowbar? Swim? What's that got to do with beating someone with your fists?

[LeeCasebolt]

"Pummel", as you're seeing it now, is a wrestling term (since adopted by MMA) for gaining inside control in the clinch. "Swim" is another term for the technique, since the process of working one hand under your opponent's arm looks kinda like swimming. "Crowbar" is a new one on me.

And since clinch control lets you do all sorts of throws, strikes, and holds, while keeping your opponent from doing anything of significance to you, it has quite a bit to do with beating someone with your fists. Or knees. Or elbows. Some low kicks. Sweeps. Throws. Choke holds. Neck locks.

OK, I'll stop now.

[Khun Kao Charuad]

when the other guy grabs your neck would grabbing his weist with both arms and forcing my weight under my head then delivering a hook to their exposed liver = victory?

Your most likely to get KTFO'ed. Knees beat punches.

Punching when clinched is a bad idea because your opponent has control of your head and neck. That means he is controlling your body movement and therefore will be able to prevent you from getting your body behind your punches.

Meanwhile, he will be free to deliver knee strikes, apply a neck crank, setup an elbow strike, setup a takedown.....

I'll say it again, knees beat punches

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by omarthefish
Where are all these rear choke questions coming out of. He said "CLINCH" that means face to face....:confused:




The liver is behind your ribs on the right side. It's a good piece of trivia to know as a MA. It means that you can hurt someone much more on with a body left hook to the body than a right.

Try it while your sitting there reading this. Punch yourself in the ribs first on the right and then on the left. See if you can feel which side is tougher. When you take a shot on the right, most people will feel a bit of nasuea that doesn't happen from a shot to the left.

It is a good piece of trivia and for effectiveness and accuracy sakes , If you haven't already, pick up an anatomy chart and have a browse. a whole range of moves 'll open up and you may just end up knowing exactly where and what your strikes are gearing to ;) :cool:

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
It may get you a knee in the face.

it may, but if you can swing a high frontal leg lock , and follow through with a strike to an accessible point that was going to count, you may just be okay

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by LeeCasebolt
"Crowbar" is a new one on me.

"Crowbar" refers to placing your arm over the same side arm and under the opposite arm, and using it like a crowbar to break the clinch.

[blooming lotus]

but that requires stregnth over opponent, which is just not always going to happen??

[ShaolinTiger00]

but that requires stregnth over opponent,

not strength, leverage. you use your arm like a crowbar to pry his arm away. very small guys can do this to big guys easily if they know what they're doing.

ex. I got a clinch on an experienced thai boxer in my club. he is much lighter than I am, but he used used the crowbar and he was out.

I extracted out my revenge later in bjj class, but that's another story.. ;)


I'll say it again, knees beat punches

Khun Kao knows folks! and that's exactly why your not going to solve the problem of being in an inferior clinch with strikes! You've got to use grappling to get back to a better position. and for a guy like me, vs. someone like khun kao's clinch (mr. rocket knee) I'm not even going to try to fight in the plumb. I'm going to eliminate every molecule of space between us with a tight, low body lock to stop his knees.

then I'm going to pick him up Rampage Jackson style! :D

[blooming lotus]

has anyone got a picture of this hold ???

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
has anyone got a picture of this hold ???

Why does it not surprise me that you've already posted in this thread four times before admitting you don't even know the specifics of the hold being discussed?

[SevenStar]

:D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
it may, but if you can swing a high frontal leg lock , and follow through with a strike to an accessible point that was going to count, you may just be okay

wtf?

[blooming lotus]

I understand what you're describing, and excuse me for not knowing what it looks like, and so asking for clarification, but while we're here, do you have the pic or don't you??

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I understand what you're describing, and excuse me for not knowing what it looks like, and so asking for clarification, but while we're here, do you have the pic or don't you??
Fvcking LOL!

:D

There should be a special smilie just for bl's posts. One of somebody nearly suffering an aneurism from laughing or something.

[blooming lotus]

so that hold ??

Ps: just don't try telling me I claim to know everything nor that I'm not interested in learning .

juvinile :rolleyes:

[ShaolinTiger00]

juvinile

I'm a big Ludicrous fan myself, but will take Nelly in a last resort.

Holla!

[omarthefish]

LeeCasebolt,

Thanks for the clarification on 'pummeling'. It had been bugging me for days....maybe even weeks. I'm not sure when it creeped into my awarenes actually.


Originally posted by blooming lotus
It is a good piece of trivia and for effectiveness and accuracy sakes , If you haven't already, pick up an anatomy chart and have a browse. a whole range of moves 'll open up and you may just end up knowing exactly where and what your strikes are gearing to ;) :cool:

College anatomy was a blast as a martial artist. I did really ****ty on the lectures (c average) but I pretty muched aced the lab. I got an A on every single quiz and exam. We had lots or real human bones to play with and even a couple skulls. Then we moved on to the cadavers, one male and one female but far more important than all that is your signature.

FIX IT!

It's taking up half the page. It makes no sense. It is ABSURD and **** impolite. Do us all a favor and take out all the [quote]blkhfdjkahff[./quote] stuff and replace it with [size=1]kfljshafghf[./size].;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I understand what you're describing, and excuse me for not knowing what it looks like, and so asking for clarification, but while we're here, do you have the pic or don't you??

you're at the internet cafe and have time on your hands...search for it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
I understand what you're describing, and excuse me for not knowing what it looks like,

If you understood what we're describing, you'd know what it looks like.

You've posted at least twice giving ADVICE on getting out of/working in this hold, and now you admit you don't know what it even looks like.

I think that says all that needs to be said about your credibility.

[Mr Punch]

There are many ways to skin a cat... then you just take that skinning knife and shove up into the point between his bottom two ribs!!! :D

Ahem. A liver punch may work, but as Omar says, it may make him nauseous, which as Khun implies, isn't gonna stop him from kneeing you until your ribs pop and your jaw falls open. You'd need really good short range power to stop him.

The swim is good. The crowbar is good. If you can shift his body (as he'll be trying to do to you) with your swimming to unbalance him there's no reason why your knees shouldn't be going in or you can't slip down for a double-leg.

There's also a nifty Thai throw I've used where you shove your hand in under his shoulder blade and your other hand on the opposite side round his head and fold sharply down whilst stepping back quickly and deeply with one foot. ask one of the real Thai boys here.

You might be able to back off and turn tight into his body for a Russian Arm Drag.

At this point it's a what-if scenario.
If you haven't already, pick up an anatomy chart and have a browse. Or you could just roll up a heavy chart and beat the crap out of him with that... :rolleyes:

[Mr Punch]

BTW, Lotus, if the 'high frontal leg lock' is supposed to mean a single leg shoot, you'll still probably eat knees. As Khun says you wanna get in close... then if you're gonna shoot, I think the double is a lot safer from the clinch.

If it isn't a single leg you're describing, what is it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Mat
There's also a nifty Thai throw I've used where you shove your hand in under his shoulder blade and your other hand on the opposite side round his head and fold sharply down whilst stepping back quickly and deeply with one foot. ask one of the real Thai boys here.


mat throws a hook punch. sev covers and steps in, shooting his arm behind mat's head, securing a side plam. sev steps outward with his outside foot (rear leg), pivoting in a circle and kicking mat's leg with his lead leg. As he is kicking, sev pushes mat's head downward while raising his opposite shoulder, allowing him to fall to the ground.


Is that the one that you are talking about? looks similar ro hiza guruma?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Mat
BTW, Lotus, if the 'high frontal leg lock' is supposed to mean a single leg shoot, you'll still probably eat knees. As Khun says you wanna get in close... then if you're gonna shoot, I think the double is a lot safer from the clinch.

If it isn't a single leg you're describing, what is it?

you know??.Where you hook your outside leg between his thighs , lever down with your weight on your knee, shin as "lever bar", or hook it back through so heel / achilles is on back of their inside outer leg and your knee controls their outer leg........... control or takedown, either way..works for me!!

[ShaolinTiger00]

translated:

blooming lotus's "high frontal leg lock" = inner reap = ouchi gari

which makes me laugh for many reasons (it's not a leglock, it's not frontal, and it's not high on the leg..)

but for your poor terminology aside, the inner reap works, IF you remove the space he needs to lift his knees. Expect to take an elbow or shovel punch as you attempt this. Think of it as the "cover charge" for getting in such a poor position.

[blooming lotus]

his arms are already busy choking you out! if you do it quickly . and follow through with a torso, throat stike, you're walking away !!

Ps : lol @ own lack 'o lingo and cheers for laughing with me :P

[Mr Punch]

Yeah, that sounds like it Seven, but I think you got the names the wrong way round! ... Sev throws a hook punch... :D ;) :p

Cheers for the description Lotus, and the translation ST00! The only standing leg-lock I could think of was to start a single leg (obviously using your arms which in this situation is knee-pie with gravy).

[ShaolinTiger00]

you're walking away !!

lol. no you're not. 90% of the time a hard ouchi gari will put you right into his closed guard.

[blooming lotus]

dahh....... but his hands are pre-occupied and you have his legs controlled and a gap from torso to neck! You may not walk away, but having seen / been in a real life similar situation recently, but with sexual btw, least I know i am :eek: ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
his arms are already busy choking you out! if you do it quickly . and follow through with a torso, throat stike, you're walking away !!

Ps : lol @ own lack 'o lingo and cheers for laughing with me :P

he's not choking you out, he's got you in plam, correct? plam is perfect for setting up elbows.

As for walking away, chances are you won't - you're gonna fall with him. you're now in his guard and have to get out before you can go anywhere.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
dahh....... but his hands are pre-occupied and you have his legs controlled and a gap from torso to neck! You may not walk away, but having seen / been in a real life similar situation recently, but with sexual btw, least I know i am :eek: ;)

you don't have his legs controlled - you are in his guard. his hands aren't preoccupied. they are active and helping him set up for his next technique.

[blooming lotus]

I can't picture how you're thinking this is ineffective???

his hands are on your neck right?? Depending on your range, at min, you're getting your hold with a thigh on thigh, controlling with your hip and if really close or slow maybe loosing out on the foot hold. For strike , because his arms are high and open, you still have his whole front torso to strike and his own neck / throat is open.

I used this very move, but low planted and ready for feet as opposed to the full lock, and even lil old me swung a blade strike to his neck, thumb in adams apple and chest to arms/ shoulder was open the whole time for elbow ( palm for chest strike ) follow-through if neccessary. I think if you can get in close yourself , it's comprimising his own set up??

I dunno..... if you can't picture it, you can't. :cool:

[SevenStar]

his hands aren't on your neck - they are around the back of your head (the crown area) and his forearms/elbows are pushing into you. he is pulling your chin down toward your chest. you head is down and his elbows are in. his chin is down too. you're not gonna strike him in the throat without him picking up on your movement.

The reap can take him down, but you will likely go with him, in which case you are now ground fighting.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
dahh....... but his hands are pre-occupied and you have his legs controlled and a gap from torso to neck! You may not walk away, but having seen / been in a real life similar situation recently, but with sexual btw, least I know i am :eek: ;)
You still don't know what btw means, do you, bl.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
his hands aren't on your neck - they are around the back of your head (the crown area) and his forearms/elbows are pushing into you. he is pulling your chin down toward your chest. you head is down and his elbows are in. his chin is down too. you're not gonna strike him in the throat without him picking up on your movement.

The reap can take him down, but you will likely go with him, in which case you are now ground fighting.



1st off : - the dude said "NECK"........... hands on your neck!!!!!!!!

ENFORCER :- can we clarify this because I think our communication is degenerating? What exactly did you mean???

ring vs life...........

Ps: if his chin is down, like forcer says , you're taking the liver / pancreas / frontal kidney strike , and using your knees if you have to........... I did consider this, and I guess the "hands on neck" situation and their respective position is pending your "attackers " experience.........


okay so according to you, your arms and elbows are being forced out by his own elbows ( to anywhere from your shoulders to your chmid - bicep ) and he's covered his neck and even if you could slip in side neck blade, you're fajing on it 'll be limited....... what are his feet doing??? to get that levarge , his feet / legs are open right and therefore a takedown, foot point , shin smash ( pek gar from close range / come whatever the fvck you called that thing I do ) if done quickly 'll upset his balance and setup min ........ then as he corrects his balance, you're gon find something else opening up ........right????????!!!!!!!!!

Ps: what if you take his down inertia on your neck/ back 'o head , tuck in, twist and back roll with a landing elbow to wherever you can get it to land????

[cerebus]

"What exactly did you mean?"
What he meant was that .......YOU'RE WRONG!!! Don't bother questioning why, you just are. :p

[blooming lotus]

shaddup idiot........rocket scinece for a mo..........you jerk stick are my net- stalker afterall, and lucky you already had my mailing adress.......... ( pls see timing on my inbox vs your own posting and lack of corresponding to absence of those freak mails.............) and so you are a total desperate ball-less wa*k and I will never speak to you nor respect any mofo thing you ever say here!!!!!! get a life looser!!!!!!!!!!!

[cerebus]

"what if you take his down inertia on your neck"
What you mean to say is "momentum", not "inertia". Inertia is the opposite of momentum. You're welcome. (Lesson # 22,999 for bl). :rolleyes:

[cerebus]

Looks like we posted at the same time.

First of all.... WTF are you babbling about?
Second of all, I wish you never would have spoken to me in the first place.
And last of all, when have you EVER respected anything I've ever said to you (even back when I used to try & give you the correct info on subjects you were obviously mistaken on)?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by cerebus
"what if you take his down inertia on your neck"
What you mean to say is "momentum", not "inertia". Inertia is the opposite of momentum. You're welcome. (Lesson # 22,999 for bl). :rolleyes:

no . i did mean inertia, even if it was on pause and building........

look stalker freak.you spoke to me first and go jump .mm kayyyy

I'm here and chatting for long as I feel like.... :eek: ;) :p


:rolleyes:

dammed closet fan :mad:

[cerebus]

Using someone's "inertia" to initiate a movement makes no sense. You want to wait until they apply pressure then use that pressure. Inertia is lack of momentum or movement. That means it's stable.
Get your sorry azz to Alcolholics Anonymous (drunken loser :rolleyes: ).

[blooming lotus]

as opposed to bored freak net -mail freak stalker looser ???


:confused:


oh.deny my advice.saved me twice in 2 days............

peace shwangers ;)

[Becca]

Ps: what if you take his down inertia on your neck/ back 'o head , tuck in, twist and back roll with a landing elbow to wherever you can get it to land???? You get a sore neck and probably one heck of a head ache. Any inertia/momentum he's likely to have will be taking you counter to what you'er suggesting. It could work, a$$uming you got him to loosen his hold first, but there are many better things to do.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
1st off : - the dude said "NECK"........... hands on your neck!!!!!!!!

you're right there, he did say neck. He also specified from a clinch. That part tells me he actually means the crown, not the neck. I can't control your head by having my hand on your neck. The same thing would apply though. It sounds like you are interpreting "grab the neck" as a choke attempt, and I don't think that's what he's talking about.


Ps: if his chin is down, like forcer says , you're taking the liver / pancreas / frontal kidney strike , and using your knees if you have to...........

No, we were saying the other guy would use knees. enforcer was wondering what would happened if he disengaged from the clinch and lowered his level in order to throw a liver punch. We replied by saying he would eat knees. If enforcer wanted to knee, his best option is to remain clinched, not to disengage and lower his level.


okay so according to you, your arms and elbows are being forced out by his own elbows ( to anywhere from your shoulders to your chmid - bicep ) and he's covered his neck and even if you could slip in side neck blade, you're fajing on it 'll be limited.......


who cares? It will still knock you the fock out. Check out some thai matches and see how well they use elbows.

And no, you misunderstand. the guy clinching has his elbows in. enforcer's elbows are no where around - remember, he's trying to go low for a liver punch. If he were to remain clinched, then enforcer's elbows would be outside, ideally, as the attacker has more control as long as he is on the inside and enforcer is not.


what are his feet doing??? to get that levarge , his feet / legs are open right and therefore a takedown,


they don't have to be, but likely would be, as the guy would be throwing knees. As we stated though, the takedown is a viable option.


foot point , shin smash ( pek gar from close range / come whatever the fvck you called that thing I do ) if done quickly 'll upset his balance and setup min ........ then as he corrects his balance, you're gon find something else opening up ........right????????!!!!!!!!!

not necessarily - I wouldn't base my attacks on the possibility of him slipping up. depending on how bad your takedown was, especially in the case of o uchi gari - he may just step back out of it. Nothing more than moving his leg back.

Ps: what if you take his down inertia on your neck/ back 'o head , tuck in, twist and back roll with a landing elbow to wherever you can get it to land????

you lost me here. Are you saying to do this after you sweep him, or instead of sweeping him?

[blooming lotus]

1st, on beccas / 7 s last comment :- if you could get a low sweep on , even with your out side leg before you dropped ( delivering even outside elbow) , it could make the difference, but really that was just straws.


7* from the way his weight's balanced, if you can predict which knee he's planning on using, you can use a shin denfence of your own and continue on with the lock and follow up strike.

on the elbows, I think you misunderstand, because that's exactly what I was saying ( just not as clearly ) and so you use your feet / legs or you accept your defeat right there.

on stepping out of it , if it was back you have range for the pek gar you didn't have before, also taking out his new base, assuming he was going to follow through with the opposite leg for a strike, or to counter if he was delivering from the back stepping leg.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
1st, on beccas / 7 s last comment :- if you could get a low sweep on , even with your out side leg before you dropped ( delivering even outside elbow) , it could make the difference, but really that was just straws.

huh?


7* from the way his weight's balanced, if you can predict which knee he's planning on using, you can use a shin denfence of your own and continue on with the lock and follow up strike.

you can't block a knee from the clinch with your shin. there are various defenses you can do though, depending on which type of knee strike he is using.

on the elbows, I think you misunderstand, because that's exactly what I was saying ( just not as clearly ) and so you use your feet / legs or you accept your defeat right there.

gotcha.

on stepping out of it , if it was back you have range for the pek gar you didn't have before, also taking out his new base, assuming he was going to follow through with the opposite leg for a strike, or to counter if he was delivering from the back stepping leg.

if he maintains the clinch, then the likely attack would probably be a knee off of the leg that stepped back. You have to remember though, he is clinching you and has control of your head - he will be jerking you around, trying to keep you off balance.

[blooming lotus]

the reason I said block the knee with a shin ( as in to his thigh ), was because I'd be doing it in the process of the leg lock I was about to execute, even if somewhat modified.

on the jerking, I guess that's going to come down to your own base, but if you're grounding for the counter on the knee then lock follow through, youu should get it away.



Besides , if his hands are high and elbows in, now that they are not controlling / pushing on the shoulder , I can't see why you couldn't get a pancreas or groin strike in before then or with the block anyway??? :confused:

or even if you can't use your hands, the block and a knee in to the same region on the way to your lock for that matter .

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
the reason I said block the knee with a shin ( as in to his thigh ), was because I'd be doing it in the process of the leg lock I was about to execute, even if somewhat modified.

I don't thinjk that would work, unless the guy is just standing there waiting for you to hit him. You have to get low in order to pull of the reap. To try and get low after raising for a shin check would take way too long. Also, that might kill your already bad angle and make your chances of pulling off the reap slimmer.

on the jerking, I guess that's going to come down to your own base, but if you're grounding for the counter on the knee then lock follow through, youu should get it away.

it's more than a base issue. It's an I've got your head issue. where I pull your head, your body will follow.



Besides , if his hands are high and elbows in, now that they are not controlling / pushing on the shoulder , I can't see why you couldn't get a pancreas or groin strike in before then or with the block anyway??? :confused:

they are still pushing on the shoulder - it's the elbows that push, not the hands. depending on distance and your head level, you may or may not be able to pull of strikes to those areas. And, even if you can, he has knees. Like KKC said, knees beat punches everytime.

[blooming lotus]

if you're being jerked around, it's not really doing much damage until that knee comes through. I don't understand why you think you'd need to go low on it though??

Are sure you understand what I was describing?? As in arc in with that leg on the opposite side to where the knee's comming from , connect with his thigh as he drives his knee down , clip back to his groin, getting your foot in as you come through to the opposite side with your shin for your lock , which should also leave something open for a hand strike on his torso on the side he was driving the knee with .

[Becca]

if he maintains the clinch, then the likely attack would probably be a knee off of the leg that stepped back. You have to remember though, he is clinching you and has control of your head - he will be jerking you around, trying to keep you off balance.
Second on all of this. Rooting has more to do with keeping out of this situation, and won't help you a bit once you're already there. Trying to root after the fact will get you nothing but jerked more violently.

also taking out his new base, assuming he was going to follow through with the opposite leg for a strike, or to counter if he was delivering from the back stepping leg.
One point you may have missed: He probably didn't change his base much if any. Also, almost every strike, knee or otherwise, requires the whole body to work with any efficiency. You just can't doo this with him jerking you around like a rag doll. You may be able to put you knee up in a blocking position, but good positioning of the block does not meen you can block anything. He would plow right through that type of wimpy fake.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
if you're being jerked around, it's not really doing much damage until that knee comes through. I don't understand why you think you'd need to go low on it though??

knees are coming in WHILE you are being jerked around... that's a normal thai clinch. as for going low, that's how the reap you are describing works. you cant go high on the leg and pull it off.

Are sure you understand what I was describing?? As in arc in with that leg on the opposite side to where the knee's comming from , connect with his thigh as he drives his knee down , clip back to his groin, getting your foot in as you come through to the opposite side with your shin for your lock , which should also leave something open for a hand strike on his torso on the side he was driving the knee with .


this particular description completely lost me. the "lock" you were referring to earlier, was, as ST00 pointed out, o uchi gari. I have no clue what you are describing now...

[blooming lotus]

really, with 2 skilled players, it should all play out fairly quickly so the jerking about , if you're focussed shouldn't mean much unless you submit to it, and make that or the loss of upper control the focus breaker. If it does take longer, it's just more time to play out your counter.

I think at this stage base is probably getting less relevant.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by SevenStar
knees are coming in WHILE you are being jerked around... that's a normal thai clinch.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar


you're right, I just saw what you were talking about, but if you did go high , which looks more feasible to get at, with the torso strike combo , which has gotta be open somewhere on that outter side, you can then at min buy a few moments on the leg lock as is, without neccessarily a takedown and get into either his knee strike side shoulder or have at least one arm come out to defend, because it's all he's now got to play with , and new game , new scenario.

maybe from there, after you get your head free, you can step into it and take the reap.

[cerebus]

And then one time, at band camp, bl stuck her head up her arse. :p :p

[blooming lotus]

look dude. this was a really good good discussion on techniques and forum style spar - off, so as long as we ignore you , I think the thread can retain its' integrity .

cheers bored guy :cool:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
look dude. this was a really good good discussion on techniques and forum style spar - off,

...right up until the point you started giving advice, without having any idea what the actual position being discussed was.

[blooming lotus]

so back to that postion and why my last comment wouldn't work???

[MantisFistMonk]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
I've never heard of a liver punch before...


I'm not sure if you watch boxing, but watch the Hopkins / De La Hoya fight that took place on Sept. 18th I believe.

Hopkins puts ODLH out with a liver shot in the 9th round.

[omarthefish]

Did he do it from the clinch?

[ShaolinTiger00]

no Omar. They were free standing.

as you probably already know, boxing in the clinch is very quickly stopped by the ref.

[blooming lotus]

so why are we talking this out, real life where you'd more likely just want to lock and run, or a ring fight that is never going to happen or what???


come on boys, reality for a mo ha??

[SevenStar]

what do you mean a ring fight that will never happen?

lock and run?

[blooming lotus]

well how often are two fighters so greatly mismatched in size and weight class really going to compete against each other anyway outside your own school?? Let alone male to fml , unless it's on the street??

[SevenStar]

I had to fight someone 80 lbs heavier than me. When you fight above 218, you have to take all comers. I experience this on a regular basis in judo, but only once in kickboxing.

Also, In judo I've competed in open weight divisions and had to fight people I outweighted by 30-50 lbs.

[blooming lotus]

so...size might make a difference you say :P

hold up , so how did you go in those fights and on your wins, what do you think were the differences??

[SevenStar]

Thie difference was the way I fought, not my attributes. I lost the kiccboxing match - didn't fight my fight. I knew it would be cool as hell if I just layed him out, so I went in with fist blazing instead of keeping my distance and wearing him down, then going in to finish. I ended up losing by decision - we was too big for me to drop easily, and I've got a decent chin, so he couldn't drop me either.

In the judo matches, I just fight my fight - stay mobile, attack constantly, setting up for my throws.

[blooming lotus]

oh...so you mean tactic can triumph over size when you don't have it ;) :p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
oh...so you mean tactic can triumph over size when you don't have it ;) :p

I never said it didn't. I said size plays a factor. I can toss you WAY easier than I can toss some of the other guys I've fought, merely because you are a feather compared to them. The cross that would've laid you out only stunned the bigger guy, most likely because of that size. That's why there are weight classes.

[blooming lotus]

but despite that fact you've won anyway???

[SevenStar]

derfinitely - the bigger guy is much harder to work with. As far as judo goes, I attribute alot of that to strength. I can set my throws up, but alot of times, the big guy will not go where he doesn't want to go. That's where strength comes in.

Oh wait... did I just say that strength does matter? :p

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by SevenStar
, the big guy will not go where he doesn't want to go.


was that an error or what did you mean by that exactly??

schools in , lets hear it.

[SevenStar]

how hard is that to understand? If he is fighting to resist you, it's hard as fock to move him. Even flowing with him in the direction he is already heading, actually tossing him is a chore. Have you ever had a judo match with a guy who weighs 335 and is 6'3? I have. (and he wasn't a drunken samoan :p ) If he doesn't want to be thrown, he won't be.